Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Deevers]

Interestingly it as actually very rare for successful independence referendums.

 

The most likely way to become independent is to be a former colony.

 

This just shows more than anything the yes campaign should be about convincing people that they want to live in an Independent Scotland, fighting for itself on the World Stage, not about the economy or the EU or these side issues.

 

If the people don't care about being Scottish more than British then the No camp win no matter what else they try and tell us a post union Scotland will be like.

 

 

As is always the case here, I've got a feeling that with two years to go until the referendum and all the bickering and sniping that will go with it, at the end of the day apathy will be the real winner. Both camps will literally bore the population here to death with the negativity of their arguements and most will plump for the staus quo as being the "safest option". There has been no sign of positive politicing in Scotland for decades - it's always been far easier to to denigrade the oposition than come up with any good positive ideas to put before the electorate to give them hope and share a vision of what could be with them. Sad but true.

[reaths17]

It's not a political thing mate. It's a referendum on whether we govern ourselves or have someone else do it for us. Follow a politician blindly?? You are correct. We currently follow politicians blindly and we don't vote them into power. Scotland has about a tenth of the population of England so our vote at Westminster really has little baring on who governs us.

 

Just my opinion, but it appears that the no voters are looking to justify their no vote. I'm willing to be proven wrong though.

 

 

my problem with it is, they aren't offering us anything different apart from making us an even smaller fish in the world. the political system will remain the same, as in your choices will still be to vote for the crap, the jobbie or the keek, their all shit.

 

the public face of this campaign(SNP) salmond and his cronies are so much like the meeting of the lords betraying wallace. if john smith had've been running this i might have been tempted but the SNP just epitomises everything wrong with politics to me. i wouldn't turn my back on anyone calling themselves politicians, let alone vote for them.

[southside1874]

scary - I would suspect if it becomes apparent that we will lose EU membership, an will continue to be actively involved in military activity some yes voters will flip and most on the fence definitely will.

 

You want the population o this country to take a choice, let them take a choice on the facts then we will see what the people really want and hopefully allow this county to move forward

 

So what would you like to see in place for you to change to a yes voter??

[kingantti1874]

So what would you like to see in place for you to change to a yes voter??

 

The main issue for me is the economy as that dictates what we can and cannot do going forward - money will dictate what opportunity we have to improve this country, questions such as what happens to our share of deficit / debt?, how much do we generate vs what we spend today?, do we have an oil buffer or not? - lots of people voice opinions on that issue, in my mind - it's a very clear question which should have a very clear answer, the fact that it doesn't seem to worries me.

 

I also see little benefit in jumping out of the union into bed with the eurozone countries who set economic and other policy based on the needs of the euro superpowers, we could have no real freedom at all.

 

I just have the feeling many Scottish people think we get a raw deal in the UK, - have some misguided sense of disillusionment .. when in fact - our views an goals within the uk are in fact broadly aligned.. I think the majority of people feel that at the moment

 

I do remain open minded, if someone can show me a a real tangible benefit, that we will have at Least an opportunity to move fwd I'd maybe reconsider - I just don't see it, independence for the sake of it is not something I want to see.

[jambos are go!]

Thanks mods.

[southside1874]

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/News/Politics/article/19176/uk-government-accused-of-hypocrisy-for-refusing-to-release-legal-advice-on-independence-and-the-eu.html#.UIfHNjBC5Ld.twitter

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/10/what-would-an-independent-scotland-look-like/263892/

 

http://www.scottishtimes.com/uk_crisis_scotland_solvent

 

As I said previously, try a little research

[southside1874]

Thanks mods.

 

Welcome back JAG

[Boris]

 

I just have the feeling many Scottish people think we get a raw deal in the UK, - have some misguided sense of disillusionment .. when in fact - our views an goals within the uk are in fact broadly aligned.. I think the majority of people feel that at the moment

 

If that's the case, why is there only one Tory MP returned to Westminster by the Scottish electorate?

[i8hibsh]

If fat salmond and his Scottish Nuisance Party put in a fraction of the efforts into the ongoing day to day affairs of this country than he does chasing his pipe dream (100% of his efforts) then we would maybe have a country that I wasn't ashamed to be a part of.

[i8hibsh]

OH FFS

 

This isn't really relevant to the debate, but i'll bite - I assume you are 'ashamed' of Scotland, not the UK? Ashamed of free care to the elderly, free prescriptions, free travel for the old etc.

 

What exactly are you ashamed of? Fools being given a platform to spout rubbish?

 

I take it you do know there is freedom of movement, so you can leave any time the shame gets too much for you.

 

 

Those little sweeteners that you mention are just that?.sweeteners. Unsustainable, little hundreds of thousands and glace cherries to win over voters. If you are smart you will see this.

 

Yes, I am absolutely embarrassed to be Scottish nowadays. Salmond and his nationalist movement are breaking up a country. A country he wants to unite.

 

Independence is so divisive, dangerously so. It does have it?s following for sure, but a minority.

 

There are more Celtic fans in Scotland than Nationalists.

 

I turn on the news everyday and all I ever hear is Salmond talking about independence. Does the clown not know that Scotland has bigger fish to fry.

 

The English now hate us, we are seen as a nuisance. And we are. A great big fat nuisance!

 

Salmond and his supremacist views of Scotland are so unfounded it is laughable. We are a country that hasn?t done anything for around 60 years. Sure, we enlightened the world, invented half of it and punched above our weight throughout a purple patch that any country would be proud of. But now, we are nothing.

 

We are overweight, lazy and parochial in everything we do. We have no notable talents and finite resources (most of which are not exclusively ours).

 

We don?t produce anything and have not modernised with the world around us.

 

We are shit at everything we do. And I mean everything.

 

Salmond seems to think that if the 2015 publication of the World Map has ?Scotland? on it people will give a shit. No-one gives a shit. No-one will ever give a shit.

 

The only people that care about Scotland are the Scottish (and even then the numbers caring are dwindling).

 

Just what exactly does he think will happen to it?s people if we break free from the Union? Does he think that miraculously we will become the people he falsely belives that we are?

 

The disgrace of a human being is so obsessed and fanatical about Scotland he simply can?t complete a sentence without mentioning Scotland ? has anyone else noticed this?

 

Everytime you see his disgusting face on TV he is in the foreground with a saltire in the back. It is so pathetic.

 

And ?Freedom? from what? Please tell me what we are wanting ?freedom? from? He portrays himself as some sort of freedom fighter. The guy clearly does not understand the world oppression or tyranny.

 

I am absolutely disgusting with how things are. He has taken away the national pride of the majority and put flames of the fire of fanaticism to the minority.

 

I simply can?t stress enough how much I despise this despicable little nuisance of a man.

[Boris]

We are overweight, lazy and parochial in everything we do. We have no notable talents and finite resources (most of which are not exclusively ours).

 

We don?t produce anything and have not modernised with the world around us.

 

We are shit at everything we do. And I mean everything.

 

So, what you are saying is that we have benefited from being part of the Union, then?

 

Salmond seems to think that if the 2015 publication of the World Map has ?Scotland? on it people will give a shit. No-one gives a shit. No-one will ever give a shit.

 

Perhaps those people are giving a shit for their own country instead?

 

The only people that care about Scotland are the Scottish (and even then the numbers caring are dwindling).

 

Just what exactly does he think will happen to it?s people if we break free from the Union? Does he think that miraculously we will become the people he falsely belives that we are?

 

The disgrace of a human being is so obsessed and fanatical about Scotland he simply can?t complete a sentence without mentioning Scotland ? has anyone else noticed this?

 

Everytime you see his disgusting face on TV he is in the foreground with a saltire in the back. It is so pathetic.

 

And ?Freedom? from what? Please tell me what we are wanting ?freedom? from? He portrays himself as some sort of freedom fighter. The guy clearly does not understand the world oppression or tyranny.

 

I am absolutely disgusting with how things are. He has taken away the national pride of the majority and put flames of the fire of fanaticism to the minority.

 

I simply can?t stress enough how much I despise this despicable little nuisance of a man.

 

You really make no sense, what so ever.

 

You tell us how shite Scotland is, without exactly explaining why this is the case, then you round on someone because they actually agree with you and want to do something about it.

[i8hibsh]

So, what you are saying is that we have benefited from being part of the Union, then?

 

 

 

Perhaps those people are giving a shit for their own country instead?

 

 

 

You really make no sense, what so ever.

 

You tell us how shite Scotland is, without exactly explaining why this is the case, then you round on someone because they actually agree with you and want to do something about it.

 

 

I explained clearly how we are shite.

 

We have all the worst accolades going i.e worst heart disease rate, crime, obesity in Europe etc.

 

We are rubbish at all sports - even Wales are ahead of us at our own national game. We get the wooden spoon in rugby every year (a 2 horse race with mighty Italy).

 

Every media broadcast we put out, TV program we make or film we make is so cringeworthy it is total facepalm.

 

We don't produce anything except Whisky.

 

None of the above is down to the nasty English.

[Boris]

I explained clearly how we are shite.

 

We have all the worst accolades going i.e worst heart disease rate, crime, obesity in Europe etc.

 

We are rubbish at all sports - even Wales are ahead of us at our own national game. We get the wooden spoon in rugby every year (a 2 horse race with mighty Italy).

 

Every media broadcast we put out, TV program we make or film we make is so cringeworthy it is total facepalm.

 

We don't produce anything except Whisky.

 

None of the above is down to the nasty English.

 

But all of the above is happening as part of the Union. If the Union is so good for Scotland, why are the things that you mention above still here?

 

Mr Salmond has, I'm sure, many accusations thrust at him, however the things you mention are not his doing.

 

Things wouldn't change over night were Scotland to go it alone, but it might just be able to focus its resources on curing our society of these ills eventually.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Boris

[i8hibsh]

But all of the above is happening as part of the Union. If the Union is so good for Scotland, why are the things that you mention above still here?

 

Mr Salmond has, I'm sure, many accusations thrust at him, however the things you mention are not his doing.

 

Things wouldn't change over night were Scotland to go it alone, but it might just be able to focus its resources on curing our society of these ills eventually.

 

 

Please give me one guarantee that our lives will all be better with ?Independence? and give me irrefutable proof to back it up.

 

After all the fat nuisance is wanting us all to make the ?biggest political decision in 300 years?.

 

I want facts!

 

If people are being forced sorry I mean asked to make such a huge huge huge (x infinity) decision we deserve facts and guarantees.

 

The only fact is that there are no facts. We are asked to do it and go ?out on a limb?. We are being asked to take out life savings, homes, jobs, well being - absolutely everything to the casinos and put it all on black.

 

If we stay in the Union we have guarantees.

 

We have a good thing going on and have done for 300 years. We don?t owe the Union anything just like the Union doesn?t owe us anything. It has been quid pro quo since day one. It has bene a huge success. But like every union (marriage etc) it has it?s ups and downs.

 

The fat nuisance wants a divorce and wants to take the husband for everything it has. He is that unreasonable woman who has no reason or understanding.

 

The fat nuisance is completely delusional. He waddles about spouting his ?twas like us? crap whilst trying to convey an image of Scotland that belongs in the days of William Wallace.

Edited October 25, 2012 by i8hibsh

[The Comedian]

But all of the above is happening as part of the Union. If the Union is so good for Scotland, why are the things that you mention above still here?

 

Mr Salmond has, I'm sure, many accusations thrust at him, however the things you mention are not his doing.

 

Things wouldn't change over night were Scotland to go it alone, but it might just be able to focus its resources on curing our society of these ills eventually.

 

I like Unionists who slag **** out of the place but fail to mention we're tied to Westminster. Totally not getting it.

 

If only there was another way

Edited October 25, 2012 by The Comedian

[kingantti1874]

If that's the case, why is there only one Tory MP returned to Westminster by the Scottish electorate?

 

Scottish people will never forgive the tories. but i dont think that represents a difference in goals. Ill reverse question - if there is such a big difference, why does the 'yes' vote represent such a clear minority (albeit a vocal one)

[Boris]

Scottish people will never forgive the tories. but i dont think that represents a difference in goals. Ill reverse question - if there is such a big difference, why does the 'yes' vote represent such a clear minority (albeit a vocal one)

 

The Yes vote is a minority.

 

Why, though, is the majority view that the current constitutional arrangement isn't enough not being heard?

 

I.e. a second question on Devo max?

 

Re difference of goals...you could say the same about most of Western society.

[Boris]

Please give me one guarantee that our lives will all be better with ?Independence? and give me irrefutable proof to back it up.

 

After all the fat nuisance is wanting us all to make the ?biggest political decision in 300 years?.

 

I want facts!

 

If people are being forced sorry I mean asked to make such a huge huge huge (x infinity) decision we deserve facts and guarantees.

 

The only fact is that there are no facts. We are asked to do it and go ?out on a limb?. We are being asked to take out life savings, homes, jobs, well being - absolutely everything to the casinos and put it all on black.

 

If we stay in the Union we have guarantees.

 

We have a good thing going on and have done for 300 years. We don?t owe the Union anything just like the Union doesn?t owe us anything. It has been quid pro quo since day one. It has bene a huge success. But like every union (marriage etc) it has it?s ups and downs.

 

The fat nuisance wants a divorce and wants to take the husband for everything it has. He is that unreasonable woman who has no reason or understanding.

 

The fat nuisance is completely delusional. He waddles about spouting his ?twas like us? crap whilst trying to convey an image of Scotland that belongs in the days of William Wallace.

 

By guarantees do you mean obesity, poverty etc as you mentioned in your previous post?

 

Or are there other guarantees you haven't mentioned yet?

 

The unsubtle mysoginy does nothing for your argument either.

[i8hibsh]

By guarantees do you mean obesity, poverty etc as you mentioned in your previous post?

 

Or are there other guarantees you haven't mentioned yet?

 

The unsubtle mysoginy does nothing for your argument either.

 

Every country has obesity and poverty ffs this is not exclusive to being part of the UK.

 

A FACT of the Union is that Scotland is not the most deprived. The North East and North West of England have this sewn up.

[Boris]

Every country has obesity and poverty ffs this is not exclusive to being part of the UK.

 

A FACT of the Union is that Scotland is not the most deprived. The North East and North West of England have this sewn up.

 

So why the rant earlier bemoaning these things in a Scotland?

 

I get you like the Union and dislike Salmond and the notion of independence.

 

That's cool.

 

But trying to defend the Union with polemic that would make David Icke blush isn't really doing you any favours.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I thought poverty was a myth. A big change in a couple of weeks despite the UK coming out of recession...

[kingantti1874]

Not so sure about the clear minority, I think it is probably about 1/3 in each of the camps yes/no/undecided, but at the moment the undecided are moving to the no camp. (if that makes sense)

 

It is not about differences either though, it is about Scotland looking after its own interests, not having someone from Brighton or Leeds doing it for them.

 

Not according to the latest mori polls.. And I think it's naive to think we will look after our own interests .. We will have to bend to the will of Brussels more often than we currently have to..

[Boris]

Not according to the latest mori polls.. And I think it's naive to think we will look after our own interests .. We will have to bend to the will of Brussels more often than we currently have to..

 

 

But will we?

 

Again, one thing that puzzles me about, certainly, the Tory opinion on Independence, and I'm not saying you are a Tory(!), is this sceptical view of Brussels vis-a-vis the UK, yet it's ok for Westminster vis-a-vis Scotland.

[southside1874]

Please give me one guarantee that our lives will all be better with ?Independence? and give me irrefutable proof to back it up.

 

After all the fat nuisance is wanting us all to make the ?biggest political decision in 300 years?.

 

I want facts!

 

If people are being forced sorry I mean asked to make such a huge huge huge (x infinity) decision we deserve facts and guarantees.

 

The only fact is that there are no facts. We are asked to do it and go ?out on a limb?. We are being asked to take out life savings, homes, jobs, well being - absolutely everything to the casinos and put it all on black.

 

If we stay in the Union we have guarantees.

 

We have a good thing going on and have done for 300 years. We don?t owe the Union anything just like the Union doesn?t owe us anything. It has been quid pro quo since day one. It has bene a huge success. But like every union (marriage etc) it has it?s ups and downs.

 

The fat nuisance wants a divorce and wants to take the husband for everything it has. He is that unreasonable woman who has no reason or understanding.

 

The fat nuisance is completely delusional. He waddles about spouting his ?twas like us? crap whilst trying to convey an image of Scotland that belongs in the days of William Wallace.

 

What about you trying to guarantee your life will be better instead of asking others to do it for you??

[Boris]

I think it's the perception that Brussels is even further away (not just distance) and even less in touch with current issues. Maybe more to do with the assumption that we will have closer ties with Europe under independence.

 

Yeah, I can almost buy that. Just seems hypocritical coming from the Tories, given their attitude to Scotland in the past and their failure to realise that there is a vastly different political culture North of Hadrian's Wall.

[Boris]

I wouldn't assume it's argument put forward just by Tories to be honest. It would seem a bit ironic for nation to vote for independence and then to potentially fully integrate into europe, but one step at a time i guess.

 

I don't really give a hoot where I'm governed out of to be honest. I just want them to be good at it!!!

 

I guess it's about having the right to make those decisions rather than being led by Etonian chinless wonders that have no mandate up here.

[Boris]

 

Maybe I'm to cynical but politics is little more than careers and industry nowadays, not sure if its always been that or not. It's just seems to me that it will be the same issues, if I'm honest I'm not sure what independence really change anything.

 

You'll probably think this is pretty shallow, but the only thing I really care about how this will hit me the pocket. I don't have any real ideology. Scottish, British or European I don't really care it's just a tag at the end of the day it's how those running country do that matter to me.

 

I don't think you are cynical at all. I actually agree with you to a very large extent.

 

Independence isn't an ideological issue for me either. Neither is how it affects me financially, in that we are in the shit right now and I'm not 100% sure where anything goes from here.

 

What I do think is that "the system", be that political/economic at a local, national and international level needs changed, otherwise we will be back to square one before we know it.

 

With the exclusion of a vote on devo max I am now forced between two options, neither of which I am comfortable with but if I really want the status quo to change, then I guess I know which way I should vote.

 

And the only personal gain I think I would get from an independent Scotland is the knowledge that my son could grow in a socially inclusive, socially responsible and socially respectful society. Can't see us getting that from Westminster.

[reaths17]

changing overlord from westminster to brussels isn't and never will be freedom. their rioting in greece for a reason, their demonstrating in spain, france for a reason. germany seem to have just found a different way to impose its will on the people of europe.

 

criminals who have kicked society when its down have more rights than those they've kicked due to the EU's mighty bureaocracy machine. britain has said you can stuff your voting rights for prisoners, as a small fish we will be TOLD to get it done.

 

as long as supposed independence is tied to the EU were still in a union, just a smaller fish.

[Boris]

changing overlord from westminster to brussels isn't and never will be freedom. their rioting in greece for a reason, their demonstrating in spain, france for a reason. germany seem to have just found a different way to impose its will on the people of europe.

 

criminals who have kicked society when its down have more rights than those they've kicked due to the EU's mighty bureaocracy machine. britain has said you can stuff your voting rights for prisoners, as a small fish we will be TOLD to get it done.

 

as long as supposed independence is tied to the EU were still in a union, just a smaller fish.

 

Care to back any of those statements up with proof?

[Boris]

On your last para I can't see us getting that from any politician lol.

 

I'm just interested to know as you brought up the devo max option.

 

Do you feel the devolved powers Scotland obtained has had a positive effect on the country and why?

 

Yes. I think devolution has been a good thing.

 

Primarily because it has allowed the Scottish electorate to get what it has voted for e.g. tuition fees, free prescriptions, care for the elderly etc

 

I also think that we have a better method of electing our representatives, thus making it far more democratic than the Westminster system. It has also, through the powers devolved to it, acted as a buffer against the neo-con policies pushed through by Westminster since 1998.

 

I feel safer knowing that Holyrood controls the NHS in Scotland, rather than diktat from Westminster.

 

However, I feel that we should have greater power, in respect of fiscal autonomy for example.

 

I have always said that the devolution settlement was a hotch-potch and that a federalised UK would not only quell nationalist sentiment, but also strengthen the Union.

 

It would appear though that the two main Unionist parties, at least, are happy to contiue with the see-saw politics of the Westminster model which is, imo, extremely undemocratic e.g. the voting system, an unelected second chamber etc etc

[southside1874]

I wouldn't assume it's argument put forward just by Tories to be honest. It would seem a bit ironic for nation to vote for independence and then to potentially fully integrate into europe, but one step at a time i guess.

 

I don't really give a hoot where I'm governed out of to be honest. I just want them to be good at it!!!

 

This was my opinion and to a huge extent it still is. What I've came to realise is there is nobody better to govern us but ourselves.

[southside1874]

Every country has obesity and poverty ffs this is not exclusive to being part of the UK.

 

A FACT of the Union is that Scotland is not the most deprived. The North East and North West of England have this sewn up.

 

I wonder why?

[kingantti1874]

I wonder why?

 

Because a large % of the population are lazy, talentless, scrounging *******s

Edited October 25, 2012 by kingantti1874

[southside1874]

Because a large % of the population are lazy, talentless, scrounging *******s

 

I wonder what made them like that?

[kingantti1874]

I wonder what made them like that?

 

. a state which rewards failure!! nobody makes you what you are, society owes you nothing ..

[Coco]

. a state which rewards failure!! nobody makes you what you are, society owes you nothing ..

 

I would disagree with that. A civilised developed country should offer equality of opportunity and a stable country/rule of law etc. Everyone deserves that.

[southside1874]

Yeah I can get that stance/belief.

 

For me I think it will just be the same politicians and I'm yet to be persuaded they will be any different to the current regime. When I look at salmond, who I'm not really sure what he stands for apart from the obvious, and the likes. Don't see anything to make me think they're better equipped to run the country than the likes of Cameron.

 

I guess to a large extent we don't have a crystal ball and any real hard evidence. Voting for independence for me seems to be a bit of a leap of faith, in a belief that things will be better. Though perhaps more accurately they can't be any worse. The problem is I don't see why things are going to be better all of a sudden or even in the longer term.

 

If people have that belief then fair enough. A guess a lot if this comes down your perception of how things are at the moment. For me whilst not perfect I think they're probably a lot better than many others.

 

I don't think many politicians actually do things for the benefit of the people. However I have seen the current regime carry on with a lot of things that benefit the people and add to it like scrapping bridge crossing charges for the Forth and Skye crossing. The ?5 bridge crossing charge on the Skye bridge was crippling folk in that area. It's the small things that make the difference.

 

However, the most powerful thing regarding the independence thing is the folk who want it want to make a difference. They have an attitude of what can I do for my country and I'm afraid the No voters are coming over as what will the country do for me. The difference is one side focussing on the positive and the other focussing on the negative.

 

You obviously have to deliver and have returns for the positive nature and IMO this is the difference. We have the resources, we just need the will and the effort. We are in fact blessed with resources.

[Ulysses]

Please give me one guarantee that our lives will all be better with ?Independence? and give me irrefutable proof to back it up.

 

After all the fat nuisance is wanting us all to make the ?biggest political decision in 300 years?.

 

I want facts!

 

If people are being forced sorry I mean asked to make such a huge huge huge (x infinity) decision we deserve facts and guarantees.

 

The only fact is that there are no facts. We are asked to do it and go ?out on a limb?. We are being asked to take out life savings, homes, jobs, well being - absolutely everything to the casinos and put it all on black.

 

If we stay in the Union we have guarantees.

 

We have a good thing going on and have done for 300 years. We don?t owe the Union anything just like the Union doesn?t owe us anything. It has been quid pro quo since day one. It has bene a huge success. But like every union (marriage etc) it has it?s ups and downs.

 

The fat nuisance wants a divorce and wants to take the husband for everything it has. He is that unreasonable woman who has no reason or understanding.

 

The fat nuisance is completely delusional. He waddles about spouting his ?twas like us? crap whilst trying to convey an image of Scotland that belongs in the days of William Wallace.

 

I8, you've given us a couple of really good rants, and you have something to say worth saying, but none of the above actually answers the question you were asked. While you've managed to describe Scotland's ills, you've been less successful about explaining how they have come about, how they might be addressed, or how Scotland's constitutional relationship with the rest of the UK helps or hinders. You think Scotland is a kip. It's been in the union for Jaysus knows how long, so you were asked a question as to how this could mean that staying in the union would be a good thing. You haven't addressed the question. Instead you've made a few cheap shot remarks and told us again that you think independence is a bad idea. But that doesn't tell us anything new, and that's not what you were asked.

 

It's also time for you to re-think some of your language, because you are running the risk of derailing one of the better threads on the forum. Frequently on JKB, the standard of debate about "Scotland/Britain" issues tends to be crap. Why? Because people prefer to poke at each other instead of debating the substance of the issues, so the threads descend all too easily into childish trolling and abuse. This thread has not been like that, and IMO has been one of the better debates I've seen on JKB about this subject. Why? Well, mainly because of the honest, intelligent and decent way many posters on both sides of the debate have approached the thread.

 

They brought their A game. Let's see your A game.

[southside1874]

. a state which rewards failure!! nobody makes you what you are, society owes you nothing ..

 

A society that owes you nothing is not a society but a bunch of individuals caught within a collective that rewards failure. The failure of a society is more than likely caused by rewarding individuality. The only reward for an individualist within a society can only be egotistical and financial. We live in a society of folk that want to be celebrities because this feeds the individuality and rewards this with finance.

 

The happiest people on the planet are the folk that live in slums and have nothing but family and friends. The people on the planet with the highest standard of living are found within small nations. The biggest slums are found within the largest nations.

 

Society does owe you something and you owe society. We are all part of society and what we do as individuals make the society we live in.

[i8hibsh]

I8, you've given us a couple of really good rants, and you have something to say worth saying, but none of the above actually answers the question you were asked. While you've managed to describe Scotland's ills, you've been less successful about explaining how they have come about, how they might be addressed, or how Scotland's constitutional relationship with the rest of the UK helps or hinders. You think Scotland is a kip. It's been in the union for Jaysus knows how long, so you were asked a question as to how this could mean that staying in the union would be a good thing. You haven't addressed the question. Instead you've made a few cheap shot remarks and told us again that you think independence is a bad idea. But that doesn't tell us anything new, and that's not what you were asked.

 

It's also time for you to re-think some of your language, because you are running the risk of derailing one of the better threads on the forum. Frequently on JKB, the standard of debate about "Scotland/Britain" issues tends to be crap. Why? Because people prefer to poke at each other instead of debating the substance of the issues, so the threads descend all too easily into childish trolling and abuse. This thread has not been like that, and IMO has been one of the better debates I've seen on JKB about this subject. Why? Well, mainly because of the honest, intelligent and decent way many posters on both sides of the debate have approached the thread.

 

They brought their A game. Let's see your A game.

 

 

Uly Uly Uly. Who cares about my 'A' game fella. I don't want this, I didn't ask for it and I am being FORCED to decide and potentially change my life.

 

It is me that could have his life turned upside down. The onus to play their 'A' game is well and truly with the fanatical and deluded nuisance. I want to see what he has.

 

Thing is, he has nothing. Just pipe dreams, romance and hot air.

 

He has nothing. Just nothing.

 

And it would be nice if he concentrated on 2012 for once instead of 2014.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

Uly Uly Uly. Who cares about my 'A' game fella. I don't want this, I didn't ask for it and I am being FORCED to decide and potentially change my life.

 

It is me that could have his life turned upside down. The onus to play their 'A' game is well and truly with the fanatical and deluded nuisance. I want to see what he has.

 

Thing is, he has nothing. Just pipe dreams, romance and hot air.

 

He has nothing. Just nothing.

 

And it would be nice if he concentrated on 2012 for once instead of 2014.

 

You can abstain if you want to, i8. Just go with the flow, man.

 

Back to the subject of the thread, your point about a lack of facts is valid, in some sense.

 

It's a classic Hobbesian scenario though: uncertainty breeds fear.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Sigur?sson

[Ulysses]

Uly Uly Uly. Who cares about my 'A' game fella. I don't want this, I didn't ask for it and I am being FORCED to decide and potentially change my life.

 

Then sit back, say nothing, and let everyone else make the running on the debate. Your call.

[i8hibsh]

Then sit back, say nothing, and let everyone else make the running on the debate. Your call.

 

All the Nats have is 'let's see what we can do on our own'.

 

I am sorry but we are not talking about a young lad 'flying the nest' and seeing what the world has to offer. If things fail his mummy and daddy will keep his room.

 

We will have no safety net. Nothing. That will be it. Final.

 

Sink or swim and we have way too much to lose.

[Floyd]

Then sit back, say nothing, and let everyone else make the running on the debate. Your call.

 

 

A voice of reason.

 

I'm not keen on independence either, but I'm enjoying reading other people's views, whether they are on the same side as me or not.

 

Life is all about opinions and this thread is letting people air them without petty name calling or trolling.

 

Long may it continue.

[southside1874]

All the Nats have is 'let's see what we can do on our own'.

 

I am sorry but we are not talking about a young lad 'flying the nest' and seeing what the world has to offer. If things fail his mummy and daddy will keep his room.

 

We will have no safety net. Nothing. That will be it. Final.

 

Sink or swim and we have way too much to lose.

 

Whatabout all the young lads who's parents chucked them out because they drained their finances or the ones who had the "If you move out your not coming back"

 

And just how many of these young lads actually go back and stay with their parents?

 

I had a much better relationship with my folks when I moved out. They helped me along the way.

[i8hibsh]

Whatabout all the young lads who's parents chucked them out because they drained their finances or the ones who had the "If you move out your not coming back"

 

And just how many of these young lads actually go back and stay with their parents?

 

I had a much better relationship with my folks when I moved out. They helped me along the way.

 

If you think thay we have had our finances drained then i'm sorry you are an idiot.

 

You do know we joined the Union bankrupt yeah?

[Ulysses]

If you think thay we have had our finances drained then i'm sorry you are an idiot.

 

Ah feck it I8, stop lowering the tone.

 

[Ulysses]

......I'm enjoying reading other people's views, whether they are on the same side as me or not....

 

Same here. I reckon that I probably have a different perspective to almost everyone, being a foreigner and all that. I'm neither Scottish nor British, and the decision doesn't affect me as such, But it is a hugely interesting issue, and I do like to read what people on both sides have to say. I like challenging some people a bit as well, but I'm trying to do that without taking sides.

[southside1874]

I'm not sure I buy into that if I'm honest. I can't see there being some great uprising of unity in Scotland if independence is voted through. Why are people going to all of a sudden going to change their behaviours and attitude as we're governed from Edinburgh as opposed to London?

 

Why act differently? doesn't say much for your personal attitude of you only develop a bit of drive as a result of independence IMO.

 

You could say the same about the personal drive I got when Hearts beat Hibs in the cup final. The fact that I got so much pleasure probably reflects on my personal drive. This I completely agree with. I don't see independent Scotland as the be all and end all of my life. It's just something I would like and not for personal reasons but for the good of all around me.

 

You don't often meet folk who don't want to be known as a national of their country. I see very little Union Flags at Welsh or English or indeed Scottish sporting events.

 

If you don't think people are going to change their behaviour and attitude because of them being governed from Edinburgh or London then the point is they shouldn't and the change makes no difference so why change? That is exactly the way I always looked at it. To be honest, it would make little difference to me. It would make a big difference to others though. Try doing something for someone to help them out and see the difference. What is this apathy and attitude that my input in life makes no difference? Seriously, go up north for a weekend and see how small things make a huge difference to folks lives. Imagine if the guys who run this site thought that what they do makes no difference? then we wouldn't have this conversation.....small things make big differences to attitudes and lives. Dundee has huge social ills that sees generations of single parents just producing single parents and claiming benefits. You know that voting Labour, Tory or LibDems is not going to change that.

Every action creates a reaction. If your that indifferent in your life and content then take yourself out your comfort zone.

[southside1874]

If you think thay we have had our finances drained then i'm sorry you are an idiot.

 

You do know we joined the Union bankrupt yeah?

 

So Darien made us bankrupt. You know the whole world has changed since then? It's almost weird that building the canal was the whole point of our adventure and made france bankrupt as well. Do you know it was a Scotsman who instigated the dutch ways to make France Bankrupt? Do you know that the UK is technically bankrupt just know? Without the recent growth we could have been downgraded