Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[i8hibsh]

So Darien made us bankrupt. You know the whole world has changed since then? It's almost weird that building the canal was the whole point of our adventure and made france bankrupt as well. Do you know it was a Scotsman who instigated the dutch ways to make France Bankrupt? Do you know that the UK is technically bankrupt just know? Without the recent growth we could have been downgraded

 

I know how prolific we were. Scotland as a whole and many an individual benefited i.e Carniegie.

 

Would our purple patch have happened without the support and backing of the union?

 

Why can't we be a great nation within the UK? That at least is proven.

[Boris]

I know how prolific we were. Scotland as a whole and many an individual benefited i.e Carniegie.

 

Would our purple patch have happened without the support and backing of the union?

 

Why can't we be a great nation within the UK? That at least is proven.

 

I think the purple patch you refer to was fuelled initially by slavery and then by imperialist capitalism.

 

Not sure if the vast majority of the working class in Scotland did actually benefit from Empire.

 

Shoddy housing, poor working conditions and pay, tanks on the streets to avoid and popular democratic opposition. Rule Britannia!

 

It is my belief that as the current political system stands in relation to Westminster, there is no chance that Scotland (or indeed many of the regions of England, Wales & Northern Ireland) will actually benefit. It is undemocratic and does not reflect the will of the people.

 

As I've mentioned before, my dilemma is whether to think that change on an UK scale is likely, or do I lump in with independence and hope a new society can be created.

[southside1874]

Not sure if meant be to but that's a pretty patronising post.

 

What you suggesting if I don't vote for independence I somehow lack a social conscious? I will vote the way I see fit and what I believe best.

 

Also who are these people if indepedence happens going to suddenly be better off and why? When

 

Why will being governed out of Edinburgh suddenly sort out all the countries ill. The political parties in all likelihood will be the same so what is different?

 

What structurally change will make things different?

 

I would actually say I open to be persuasion on independence but I need more than emotive arguments based on nothing than personal opinion. I don't have a problem having that belief but some how suggest you don't vote independence you lack a social conscious quite frankly can get to ****.

 

Also taking personal out comfort zone chat, just more patronising chat. I will vote for what I believe best not just for change because I don't like the current government.

 

Sorry mate. I thought it was you that took it to a personal level with this reply.

 

"Why act differently? doesn't say much for your personal attitude of you only develop a bit of drive as a result of independence IMO."

 

Just killing two birds with one stone

[Boris]

I don't agree with that, that a pretty big jump to be honest. I would see as a vote for boris, no more than I would see it for a vote for milliband (whichever one is at the time). It would be vote to retain the union what happens afterwards would be down to the uk electorate and I would vote accordingly at the time.

 

Borris running the country does seem that much more outlandish/scary than salmond running a independent Scotland to be honest. That's really just your personal perspective, albeit.

 

Point is that it highlights the disenfranchisement of the Scottish electorate from the Westminster system, as has been happening systematically since 1979.

[Boris]

[edited]

 

 

Why 79? I'm probably missing something obvious. Or you referring to maggie getting in it. Just Scottish political will has been in power for much of the time since 79.

 

As in other post. Government will never repent in individuals but the majority. When labour are elected, there are huge sections of England not represent by the governments in power?

 

It's how the system works the Scottish vote is represented we return our mp's. it's just might not be the majority. Independence will not really change this just on a slightly different scale I would imagine.

 

I totally get argument about electoral system being unfair and I would tend to agree. However, that's a different issue.

 

If you look at the way Scotland has voted in General Elections post WWII, the Tories once provided the majority of seats, until working class protestants stopped playing the "orange card" and starting voting for their interests as respresented by the Labour Party (ok, that's a simplification, but valid imo).

 

Since 1979 and the sea change in the centre right's attitude to economics, social issues etc you can quite visibly see the rejection of these policies by the Scottish Electorate. The continuation of such thinking by New Labour has seen that Labour dominance in Scotland challenged by the SNP, culminating in the majority victory at the last Scottish Elections. One may deduct that the Scottish Electorate therefore see the SNP as more progressive. Again, perhaps an over simplification but equally valid imo.

 

As far as majority ruling, under the Westminster system, this is intrinsically linked to the voting system and political structure. Since about the late 1920's, early 30's, the population in the South England has meant that this is the key battle ground at any general election, more so now given the polarised voting throughout the rest of the UK e.g. the North of England, the South West of England and to an extent Wales. So where Scotland may have been rather representative of the UK as a whole, it now no longer represents that. The consequence being that you have a National Government being elected by a minority of the electorate in a very, very regional way. However as the "swing" area is the South, those voters are the ones that get appeased, therefore you have a National Government serving a specific region/area rather than the population as a whole. So, imo, you have Govt policy driven by this sliver of the population, an economic policy that satisfies (rewards?) those voters but not the nation as a whole.

 

This is where, again, I would make the point that devolution has failed, in as much as it wasn't rolled out equally across the UK. A federalised UK, with regional parliaments, would have focussed regional issues at regional level and allowed local economic and social policies to flourish, which would, I think, have strengthened the Union and made the UK a more resillient place economically.

[Coco]

I think the purple patch you refer to was fuelled initially by slavery and then by imperialist capitalism.

 

Not sure if the vast majority of the working class in Scotland did actually benefit from Empire.

 

Shoddy housing, poor working conditions and pay, tanks on the streets to avoid and popular democratic opposition. Rule Britannia!

 

 

 

There were absolutely enormous benefits from the Empire.

 

The industrialisation it facilitated meant there were huge numbers of jobs for people, soldiers and sailors saw the world and ate and lived better than ever before, it facilitated changes to diets at home - particularly in Scotland where it was no longer just oats and herrings! etc etc.

 

Obviously with the changes in economic structure of that magnitude there were dislocations for example as you mention the housing was often cheap slum - but these have to be set against the food security improvements and the like which were made.

[Boris]

There were absolutely enormous benefits from the Empire.

 

The industrialisation it facilitated meant there were huge numbers of jobs for people, soldiers and sailors saw the world and ate and lived better than ever before, it facilitated changes to diets at home - particularly in Scotland where it was no longer just oats and herrings! etc etc.

 

Obviously with the changes in economic structure of that magnitude there were dislocations for example as you mention the housing was often cheap slum - but these have to be set against the food security improvements and the like which were made.

 

Highland clearances?

 

Careers in the military as there was nothing much else to do?

 

While there were obvious benefits of the Empire, there could have been and should have been so much more for the people who effectively created that wealth.

[southside1874]

http://www.scoop.it/t/yes-for-an-independent-scotland/p/3099713753/frankly-scotland-and-spain-exposing-the-unionist-lies?hash=96dee7bd-0fcc-44c1-8145-f0bd3cc390e7

 

Interesting article about EU membership just continuing if Scotland gains independence. Yep. No euro just the same as we are.

[southside1874]

Not really that's was just a response to how people will act differently. I just don't see how independence will make people act differently individually and collectively which was kind of the suggestion that you made.

 

It wasn't your as you albeit reading back I can see why. It was about the belief that a individual drive would change through independence. I don't see it. For me drive is a personal thing and I don't see how if your badged Scotland, British or European changes that.

 

I just don't buy if independence happens we unite as a nation I actually think its in real danger of going the other way!

 

I think a huge problem for me is if we change what are we moving to do. To persuade people change is good you need to get them to buy into the future. I don't really see any sort of vision for Scotland with independence, maybe I've missed it.

 

The whole sales pitch is that independence can't be any worse than the union. The problem is their is no detail plan if what we do go our onway what the future is like. This makes any comparative impossible.

 

Any discussion is more about personal belief that hard facts, which considering what we're voting for crazy.

As I have stated before, there is no hard facts regarding what the UK or EU will be like in 5 years. Its all down to personal belief and the vision of the population. Do you think the Greeks seen what is happening to them? Do you think they know what the future holds for them?

[Coco]

Highland clearances?

 

Careers in the military as there was nothing much else to do?

 

While there were obvious benefits of the Empire, there could have been and should have been so much more for the people who effectively created that wealth.

 

Hard to disentangle effects of course - but the period saw real wages soar for the first time in history - a real measure of the living standards of the general public.

[TheMaganator]

This whole Independence debate seems a little trivial with the news that Rudi has signed for Utd.

[Boris]

 

I do wonder if people could get electoral/governmental reform whether that would change people view to independence.

 

This is why I am miffed re the lack of a devo max option.

 

The cynic in me says if there is a no vote (which I think there will be) then Devo Max will be shelved, never to be seen again.

[southside1874]

This whole Independence debate seems a little trivial with the news that Rudi has signed for Utd.

 

He's off to join the Dundee Unionists

[TheMaganator]

This is why I am miffed re the lack of a devo max option.

 

The cynic in me says if there is a no vote (which I think there will be) then Devo Max will be shelved, never to be seen again.

 

I am not so sure.

 

There is no disputing that somethings has to change. Otherwise (assuming a NO vote) this situation will rear its head again in a few years (or a decade, or whatever). A Devo+ type settlement would appease some of the less natty nats and hopefully put the Independence debate to bed for the vast majority.

[Boris]

I am not so sure.

 

There is no disputing that somethings has to change. Otherwise (assuming a NO vote) this situation will rear its head again in a few years (or a decade, or whatever). A Devo+ type settlement would appease some of the less natty nats and hopefully put the Independence debate to bed for the vast majority.

 

Deafened by the silence coming from the main Unionist parties about guarantees for this.

 

It will be quietly dropped, the Scotch Electorate will be hoodwinked again (a la the devo ref in the late 70's) and we all just make do.

 

Yeah democracy!

[TheMaganator]

Deafened by the silence coming from the main Unionist parties about guarantees for this.

 

It will be quietly dropped, the Scotch Electorate will be hoodwinked again (a la the devo ref in the late 70's) and we all just make do.

 

Yeah democracy!

 

What guarantee would you like that a Unionist party can give?

 

That the matter will be explored after a NO vote, if that is what their members tell them they want?

[Boris]

What guarantee would you like that a Unionist party can give?

 

That the matter will be explored after a NO vote, if that is what their members tell them they want?

 

No. I'm disappointed that we didn't get the chance to vote on it in 2014.

 

There should be an affirmation that there will be a referendum on the issue.

[TheMaganator]

No. I'm disappointed that we didn't get the chance to vote on it in 2014.

 

There should be an affirmation that there will be a referendum on the issue.

 

The problem is that no one party is championing Devo+.

 

IIRC (which I probs dont) the Lib Dems had explored the issue of Home Rule before. Parties can only offer what their members want. We are having the 2014 ref because the SNP said they would give us one in their manifesto.

 

So who would give the guarantee and on what authority?

[Boris]

The problem is that no one party is championing Devo+.

 

IIRC (which I probs dont) the Lib Dems had explored the issue of Home Rule before. Parties can only offer what their members want. We are having the 2014 ref because the SNP said they would give us one in their manifesto.

 

So who would give the guarantee and on what authority?

 

The very fact we are having an indy ref shows that constitutional change is on the political landscape. However, it's not as straight forward as a yes/no.

 

In fact, if there is no move toward the devo max option being looked at/voted on, I would suspect that a few people will vote Yes, when if they were given another option they wouldn't.

 

Could that swing the outcome of a yes/no vote?

 

Perhaps.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

The very fact we are having an indy ref shows that constitutional change is on the political landscape. However, it's not as straight forward as a yes/no.

 

In fact, if there is no move toward the devo max option being looked at/voted on, I would suspect that a few people will vote Yes, when if they were given another option they wouldn't.

 

Could that swing the outcome of a yes/no vote?

 

Perhaps.

 

Are independence and devo max not two totally separate issues though? One is a complete break, the other isn't and I don't really see anyone campaigning for devo-max. They're campaigning for independence.

[Boris]

Are independence and devo max not two totally separate issues though? One is a complete break, the other isn't and I don't really see anyone campaigning for devo-max. They're campaigning for independence.

 

 

Initially the plan was for a two question referendum, but the No campaign just wanted a single question.

 

Polls, at the time, showed the devo max option had the greatest support.

 

They are seperate issues, yet the same in that it's about the constitutional arrangement of Scotland within (or without) the Union.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Initially the plan was for a two question referendum, but the No campaign just wanted a single question.

 

Polls, at the time, showed the devo max option had the greatest support.

 

They are seperate issues, yet the same in that it's about the constitutional arrangement of Scotland within (or without) the Union.

 

If independence is knocked back then no doubt they'll revisit devo max at a later date. Personally I think a three-pronged debate over yes/no/sort-of would have been far too complicated.

[jambos are go!]

The problem is that no one party is championing Devo+.

 

IIRC (which I probs dont) the Lib Dems had explored the issue of Home Rule before. Parties can only offer what their members want. We are having the 2014 ref because the SNP said they would give us one in their manifesto.

 

So who would give the guarantee and on what authority?

 

I have to point much to my surprise 62% of the SNP consultation said they did not want a second question or option. Think that is much influenced by hard line SNP supporters who want independence or bust. I have to say I respect that position. On the other side the hard line unionist want to crush the independence lobby with a straight yes or no vote. They will also promise increased devolution in thir manifesto so they can say they can say the Yes campaign delivered it rather than the No side.

[Boris]

They will also promise increased devolution in thir manifesto so they can say they can say the Yes campaign delivered it rather than the No side.

 

Labour and the Tories have both declared they will increase devolution if elected at the next Westminster elections?

[Ulysses]

Two members have managed to get themselves blocked from posting on this thread. If either of them wish to PM me they can do so, but I recommend you approach me nicely - because your carry-on has put me in a bad humour. Just saying.

 

Let me be completely clear about this; we don't welcome this debate being derailed by personal remarks, abuse or trolling. If you do any of those you will be blocked and you will not get back on. You also run the risk of being warned, suspended or even banned.

 

(And please, no comments about this post. Cheers.)

[jambos are go!]

I have to point much to my surprise 62% of the SNP consultation said they did not want a second question or option. Think that is much influenced by hard line SNP supporters who want independence or bust. I have to say I respect that position. On the other side the hard line unionist want to crush the independence lobby with a straight yes or no vote. They will also promise increased devolution in thir manifesto so they can say they can say the Yes campaign delivered it rather than the No side.

Got the last bit the wrong way round. They want to claim the No side delivered it rather than the yes. Out of practice methinks.

[Big D]

Initially the plan was for a two question referendum, but the No campaign just wanted a single question.

 

Polls, at the time, showed the devo max option had the greatest support.

 

They are seperate issues, yet the same in that it's about the constitutional arrangement of Scotland within (or without) the Union.

Thanks for being the voice of reason Boris. I have ignored this debate till now as it needs to go past the party squabbling. It is now a matter of life and death for many of my fellow Scots who live in the conditions deemed unacceptable in the former colonies the Empire raped. However, when this becomes a non partisan debate and starts being about what is best for those who get to see Hearts win the League I may contribute again. Those naw sayers, get outside and talk to Scots in areas you may instinctively avoid. I know I'm safe in those flats and closes with the Yes campaign. That's me off to discuss the positive future of our country.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Big D

[jambos are go!]

http://www.scoop.it/t/yes-for-an-independent-scotland/p/3099713753/frankly-scotland-and-spain-exposing-the-unionist-lies?hash=96dee7bd-0fcc-44c1-8145-f0bd3cc390e7

 

Interesting article about EU membership just continuing if Scotland gains independence. Yep. No euro just the same as we are.

Aye- but just an opinion. There is also an interesting aarticle about the SNP giving up on attracting voters who are well informed on the Independence issue.

 

Not a bad site covering most opinion on the independence issue. And Eck gets a hammering for the recent shenanigans.

 

I'm a great admirer of Salmond but as a Unionist I'm delighted he's started making mistakes .

[southside1874]

Aye- but just an opinion. There is also an interesting aarticle about the SNP giving up on attracting voters who are well informed on the Independence issue.

 

Not a bad site covering most opinion on the independence issue. And Eck gets a hammering for the recent shenanigans.

 

I'm a great admirer of Salmond but as a Unionist I'm delighted he's started making mistakes .

 

A link would be handy.

 

However.........this is what you like

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/scandal-of-5m-on-less-than-the-living-wage-8229944.html

[southside1874]

Cameron telling porky pies again....well who'd have thought

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/david-blanchflower/david-blanchflower-camerons-employment-claims-just-dont-add-up-8229950.html

[dobmisterdobster]

The problem is that no one party is championing Devo+.

 

IIRC (which I probs dont) the Lib Dems had explored the issue of Home Rule before. Parties can only offer what their members want. We are having the 2014 ref because the SNP said they would give us one in their manifesto.

 

So who would give the guarantee and on what authority?

Neither Labour or the Tories support Devo-Max/Plus. Therefore the issue is dead in the water.

Any devolution proposal will need to be approved by Westminster.

[dobmisterdobster]

I am not so sure.

 

There is no disputing that somethings has to change. Otherwise (assuming a NO vote) this situation will rear its head again in a few years (or a decade, or whatever). A Devo+ type settlement would appease some of the less natty nats and hopefully put the Independence debate to bed for the vast majority.

Wasn't the creation of Holyrood originally supposed to put that issue "to bed"?

[jambos are go!]

A link would be handy.

 

However.........this is what you like

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/scandal-of-5m-on-less-than-the-living-wage-8229944.html

 

 

Strangely it was in the Scoop link you provided earlier. But here is the actual article:

 

http://www.thinkscotland.org/todays-thinking/articles.html?read_full=11715&article=www.thinkscotland.org

 

Thanks for bringing that excellent site to my attention. It brings together all the articles on the issue in one place. I see today they headline about an SNP intellectual being dumped by the YES campaign for complaining that the SNP were denying the Scottish people information on the down side of Independence. Also the slagging of Big Eck shows no sign of abating

 

 

For those interested here is a link to the Scoop site:

 

http://www.scoop.it/t/yes-for-an-independent-scotland/p/3099713753/frankly-scotland-and-spain-exposing-the-unionist-lies?hash=96dee7bd-0fcc-44c1-8145-f0bd3cc390e7

Edited October 29, 2012 by jambos are go!

[Ossory_Jambo]

Some worthwhile reading, if you have the time....

 

http://www.publicati...tev/643/643.pdf

[southside1874]

Strangely it was in the Scoop link you provided earlier. But here is the actual article:

 

http://www.thinkscot...inkscotland.org

 

Thanks for bringing that excellent site to my attention. It brings together all the articles on the issue in one place. I see today they headline about an SNP intellectual being dumped by the YES campaign for complaining that the SNP were denying the Scottish people information on the down side of Independence. Also the slagging of Big Eck shows no sign of abating

 

 

For those interested here is a link to the Scoop site:

 

http://www.scoop.it/...45-f0bd3cc390e7

 

It is a good site and gives you a fair bit information. As I have said earlier, far too many folk wait for politicians to give them answers to things.

 

I wouldn't imagine the slagging of Big Eck to abate for a long time. It's the British way. ;-)

[Coco]

Interesting article from Brian Wilson (yes I know he's a git but ...).

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/brian-wilson-salmond-inquiry-begs-further-scrutiny-1-2606161

[dobmisterdobster]

Independent Scotland ?could not be asked to leave EU?

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/independent-scotland-could-not-be-asked-to-leave-eu-1-2607306

 

AN INDEPENDENT Scotland could not be asked to leave the EU for ?practical and political? reasons, a senior European Commission figure has said.

 

Graham Avery, an Honorary Director-General of the EC, says that Scottish citizens already have rights as EC citizens and couldn?t be asked to leave and apply for readmission.

[southside1874]

Independent Scotland ?could not be asked to leave EU?

 

http://www.scotsman....ve-eu-1-2607306

 

AN INDEPENDENT Scotland could not be asked to leave the EU for ?practical and political? reasons, a senior European Commission figure has said.

 

Graham Avery, an Honorary Director-General of the EC, says that Scottish citizens already have rights as EC citizens and couldn?t be asked to leave and apply for readmission.

 

And how we exactly got to this decision is because a member of Spain government asked about the Catalans entry into Europe. It makes you wonder why a member of the UK government never bothered to do the same..................then again, it doesn't really make you wonder......... ;-)

[Don Draper]

Perhaps we need some marriage counselling:

[number-16]

I've not seen it mentioned before on this thread but I was talking to someone recently that suggested there's a chance Venice could declare Independence before 2014.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9589732/Mass-rally-in-Venice-to-call-for-independence-from-Italy.html

 

If they did that may set a precedent and could have a significant impact on the debate over here.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[Coco]

I've not seen it mentioned before on this thread but I was talking to someone recently that suggested there's a chance Venice could declare Independence before 2014.

 

http://www.telegraph...from-Italy.html

 

If they did that may set a precedent and could have a significant impact on the debate over here.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

A much more powerful state in the past than Scotland ever was!

[Jambo-Chappy]

 

 

 

If independence is knocked back then no doubt they'll revisit devo max at a later date. Personally I think a three-pronged debate over yes/no/sort-of would have been far too complicated.

No chance of devo max being raised med/short term if vote goes against independence.

 

[jambos are go!]

Here is a link to the withering Editorial in the Washington Post about SNP smallmindedness and lack of clarity. Plus the threat it poses beyond in and beyond these Isles.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/in-full-the-washington-post-editorial-on-scottish-independence-1-2608978

 

This an independent view from one of the worlds greatest newspapers.

[davemclaren]

Here is a link to the withering Editorial in the Washington Post about SNP smallmindedness and lack of clarity. Plus the threat it poses beyond in and beyond these Isles.

 

http://www.scotsman....dence-1-2608978

 

This an independent view from one of the worlds greatest newspapers.

 

I don't think it's independent at all as it's totally biased towards what it views as best for US military and political interests. They probably think it's best that Saudi Arabia doesn't embrace democracy.

[leginten]

 

Here is a link to the withering Editorial in the Washington Post about SNP smallmindedness and lack of clarity. Plus the threat it poses beyond in and beyond these Isles.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/in-full-the-washington-post-editorial-on-scottish-independence-1-2608978

 

This an independent view from one of the worlds greatest newspapers.

 

What an extraordinary interpretation of the editorial. I can see nothing whatsoever in it that refers to "SNP small-mindedness" or "lack of clarity". In fact it's a fairly objective piece, as you might expect. Perhaps you can point out the parts where the editorial is "withering" about the SNP?

[leginten]

I've not seen it mentioned before on this thread but I was talking to someone recently that suggested there's a chance Venice could declare Independence before 2014.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9589732/Mass-rally-in-Venice-to-call-for-independence-from-Italy.html

 

If they did that may set a precedent and could have a significant impact on the debate over here.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

My thoughts are that it's a rather misleading article - or at least headline - by the Telegraph to the extent that I don't think there's a real suggestion that Venice itself, or even the Veneto, could become independent. Any separatist aspirations would almost certainly tie in with those of the other regions where the Lega Nord is strong. The actual city of Venice has a population of only about 65,000.

 

What a wonderful place, though. Spent the whole of last week there. I could never tire of it no matter how many times I go. As Coco mentioned, the Venetian Republic was at one time a European superpower, and Venice lasted over a thousand years as an independent state. Its history is absolutely fascinating.

Edited November 1, 2012 by leginten

[shaun.lawson]

What an extraordinary interpretation of the editorial. I can see nothing whatsoever in it that refers to "SNP small-mindedness" or "lack of clarity". In fact it's a fairly objective piece, as you might expect. Perhaps you can point out the parts where the editorial is "withering" about the SNP?

 

Completely agree. I think it makes a number of perfectly reasonable points - unlike the laughably close-minded comments (such a closing of ranks, it's almost a cliche) beneath its reproduction in the Scotsman.

 

I was particularly struck by this bit:

 

"If the pound were split between two nations, it could become subject to the same troubles that have afflicted the European currency."

 

What do the economists on here think of that? Any truth in it?

 

That editorial is also the second time in recent days that I've seen the UK referred to as the US' closest ally. I honestly thought that was Israel nowadays; I'd also assumed that American political discourse had largely relegated us to the past, but maybe not.

Edited November 1, 2012 by shaun.lawson

[JamboX2]

 

 

Completely agree. I think it makes a number of perfectly reasonable points - unlike the laughably close-minded comments (such a closing of ranks, it's almost a cliche) beneath its reproduction in the Scotsman.

 

I was particularly struck by this bit:

 

"If the pound were split between two nations, it could become subject to the same troubles that have afflicted the European currency."

 

What do the economists on here think of that? Any truth in it?

 

That editorial is also the second time in recent days that I've seen the UK referred to as the US' closest ally. I honestly thought that was Israel nowadays; I'd also assumed that American political discourse had largely relegated us to the past, but maybe not.

 

It pretty much would be a eurozone. Two independently run economies, issuing bonds on the markets, in a race to the bottomwith corporation tax...for it to work without any of the eurozones problems you'd need to have a fiscal stabilisation pact. Based on allowable debt levels, an equated corp tax rate, agreed rules on structural deficits and a total redesigning of how the Bank of England works. So essentially you'd need political integration of some form for it to work. Much like the eurozone is now moving too.

[JamboX2]

Personally based on how the right wing press view anything which is european ot not in the UK, i think it'd be politically hard and near impossivle for a serving UK PM to justify a currency union like that. Scotland if independent will end up on the euro or with her own currency. Sterling can only be an interim measure tbh.

Edited November 2, 2012 by JamboX2

[Coco]

Completely agree. I think it makes a number of perfectly reasonable points - unlike the laughably close-minded comments (such a closing of ranks, it's almost a cliche) beneath its reproduction in the Scotsman.

 

I was particularly struck by this bit:

 

"If the pound were split between two nations, it could become subject to the same troubles that have afflicted the European currency."

 

What do the economists on here think of that? Any truth in it?

 

 

 

The situation would be worse than those of the Euro.

 

Greece and the likes are at least represented within the Euro power blocs. Despite the bluster from Salmond and Sturgeon, Scotland would have no representation on the MPC or Bank of England and it is likely that interest rates set by them would have no recognition of Scottish issues.

 

For example, imagine a situation where the South East of England is once again booming (many years from now of course) - and interest rates have to rise. Scottish interest rates are pegged and also rise ... while Scotland is perhaps in recession. Massive impact. Converse is also possible of course - say fiscal policy in Scotland is being run on a free mince pro-cyclical basis ... and yet English interest rates further stoke this boom.

 

It is a dispiriting lack of recognition of economics and economic history which has led to this mess in post-independence policy.