Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Hagar the Horrible]

Slater bemoans about Swinney has removed the role of 'Minister for the Environment'  She adds people particularly in the LGbTQ+ community are looking at the SNP and thinking OMG is this the home for me.

 

I mean what the actual,  is/was the environment role solely concerned with the gender policies, or do only those with a gender identity issue care about the climate?   That needs unpacked big time, or do the Greens just want to live in some happy pink fluffy bunny rabbit utopia, where unicorns are the public transport

 

Oh they say they have a surge in membership, mibbies they have a unicorn 

[Lord Montpelier]

I see the Scottish Greens and the uber woke arm of the SNP are getting properly wound up about the Kate Forbes appointment. 

 

This can only be a good thing. 

[Hagar the Horrible]

Swinney having to defend his record on Education from both Tory and labour, but he is holding his own.  even though you would not think its his mess in the first place.

[doctor jambo]

33 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I see the Scottish Greens and the uber woke arm of the SNP are getting properly wound up about the Kate Forbes appointment. 

 

This can only be a good thing. 

this is a pivotal moment for the SNP

they have lost the greens, and wont get their support to pass legislation

they wont get Tory support, that much is obvious

they wont get labour support as they are a UK govt in waiting , and will want to make things as hard as they can.

so this is lame duck govt.

they wont be able to pass anything.

they have spent too long antagonizing everyone for this to be retrievable

[ehcaley]

Had a wee look at FM questions,Ken Bruce should've stuck with Popmaster, absolutely widden performance.

[Lord Montpelier]

9 minutes ago, ehcaley said:

Had a wee look at FM questions,Ken Bruce should've stuck with Popmaster, absolutely widden performance.

Swinney is not exactly Captain Charismatic is he. 

[Gundermann]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Given the extremist left wing policies of the SNP and greens this past couple of Holyrood parliaments I don't think people would switch their vote over to the SNP - a party who is under criminal investigation for embezzlement.

 

Can you name some of these policies? And, can you explain why people voted for both parties?

[Gundermann]

Yes, he missed the vote. The Gay Times article notes that but also notes his various statements of support over the years for LGBT rights. You can't just ignore that because it doesn't support your narrative on HY. Sure, he was underwhelming as a leader and criticise him on his record/ failures/ whatever but he clearly isn't homophobic and there's no evidence that his politics are informed by his religion.

 

Agree re Forbes. She's not a Galloway/ Farage-type hater. She's just naive and brainwashed by her religion. Her supporters call her critics 'anti Christian' but that's hardly true when Swinney is a church goer and even Ian Blackford who's apparently in the same church as Forbes. I think the cherry picking of religious texts by any Christian or Muslim is ludicrous but most politicians seem able to divorce their faith from their politics.

Edited May 9 by Gundermann

[Lord Montpelier]

7 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

Yes, he missed the vote. The Gay Times article notes that but also notes his various statements of support over the years for LGBT rights. You can't just ignore that because it doesn't support your narrative on HY. Sure, he was underwhelming as a leader and criticise him on his record/ failures/ whatever but he clearly isn't homophobic and there's no evidence that his politics are informed by his religion.

 

Agree re Forbes. She's not a Galloway/ Farage-type hater. She's just naive and brainwashed by her religion. Her supporters call her critics 'anti Christian' but that's hardly true when Swinney is a church goer and even Ian Blackford who's apparently in the same church as Forbes. I think the cherry picking of religious texts by any Christian or Muslim is ludicrous but most politicians seem able to divorce their faith from their politics.

I'm massively sceptical of any politician who claims to be both a devout follower of a religion and at the same time able to distance themselves from that in their decision making. 

 

One informs the other 

[Gundermann]

3 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I'm massively sceptical of any politician who claims to be both a devout follower of a religion and at the same time able to distance themselves from that in their decision making. 

 

One informs the other 

 

Yeah, I think they pick and choose when to play their 'faith card'. They think it goes down well with voters and probably does with the conservatively minded. I recall reading that the Daily Mail chief was a big fan of Gordon Brown as he saw him as a traditional church-going and hardworking British pillar of the community type.

 

Religion and state should be separate in all areas of society.

[OTT]

 

24 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

Yes, he missed the vote. The Gay Times article notes that but also notes his various statements of support over the years for LGBT rights. You can't just ignore that because it doesn't support your narrative on HY. Sure, he was underwhelming as a leader and criticise him on his record/ failures/ whatever but he clearly isn't homophobic and there's no evidence that his politics are informed by his religion.

 

Agree re Forbes. She's not a Galloway/ Farage-type hater. She's just naive and brainwashed by her religion. Her supporters call her critics 'anti Christian' but that's hardly true when Swinney is a church goer and even Ian Blackford who's apparently in the same church as Forbes. I think the cherry picking of religious texts by any Christian or Muslim is ludicrous but most politicians seem able to divorce their faith from their politics.

 

 

I don't think she's brainwashed. Kate Forbes is an intelligent person, but I do think she is a product of her environment. Had she been born an hour up the road in any direction, she'd probably have attended a different church! The reality is that society is not one homogenous group and people are entitled to hold a variety of views on a variety of issues. As a Nationalist MSP, my only demands of her is: Commitment to Independence and commitment to a left of centre policy position.

 

It suits Patrick Harvey to paint Kate Forbes as some sort of hate monster, the reality couldn't be further from the truth - She will vote in the interests of her constituents, as shown by her vote on the expansion of buffer zones https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/votes-and-motions/S6M-13015. I bet wee Patrick was raging that he couldn't hold this up as an example of how big bad 5ft **** all Kate Forbes is going to turn us back to the 50s!  

 

The go to turn of phrase of these so called progressives with Kate Forbes when they do concede she isn't a hate monger is that oh "well I don't think someone leading the country should merely tolerate my existance", its one of those where you just can't win. I mean, would they prefer she lied? What she's actually doing is demonstrating her ability to seperate church and state AND showcase her integrity at the same time (in not seeking to ofuscate or fudge the issue). Which can then be taken forward into other areas, like her commitment to ending child poverty, which we can gather is sincere given her integrity in not shying away from her views in more controversial and difficult areas. Its a demonstration of her principles and character - I disagree with her, but it doesn't taint my view of her. Humza on the other hand ran away and hid from the vote on gay marriage and didn't have the courage either way to back his convinctions, which I do not respect and does taint my view of him. 

 

The brass neck to actually go after her in this way - inferring her religious views pose a threat to people, meanwhile he himself rejecting an evidence based clinical report into his wee pet project is actually laughable. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Slater bemoans about Swinney has removed the role of 'Minister for the Environment'  She adds people particularly in the LGbTQ+ community are looking at the SNP and thinking OMG is this the home for me.

 

I mean what the actual,  is/was the environment role solely concerned with the gender policies, or do only those with a gender identity issue care about the climate?   That needs unpacked big time, or do the Greens just want to live in some happy pink fluffy bunny rabbit utopia, where unicorns are the public transport

 

Oh they say they have a surge in membership, mibbies they have a unicorn 

She can take the LGB out her mooth . She doesn’t represent and many LGB I know . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I see the Scottish Greens and the uber woke arm of the SNP are getting properly wound up about the Kate Forbes appointment. 

 

This can only be a good thing. 

It’s fabulous karma . 

[AlimOzturk]

Is it not in itself very intolerant of Patrick Harvey and co not to respect Kate Forbes religious beliefs what ever they may be? Once can’t really cancel out the other surely?

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

 

 

I don't think she's brainwashed. Kate Forbes is an intelligent person, but I do think she is a product of her environment. Had she been born an hour up the road in any direction, she'd probably have attended a different church! The reality is that society is not one homogenous group and people are entitled to hold a variety of views on a variety of issues. As a Nationalist MSP, my only demands of her is: Commitment to Independence and commitment to a left of centre policy position.

 

It suits Patrick Harvey to paint Kate Forbes as some sort of hate monster, the reality couldn't be further from the truth - She will vote in the interests of her constituents, as shown by her vote on the expansion of buffer zones https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/votes-and-motions/S6M-13015. I bet wee Patrick was raging that he couldn't hold this up as an example of how big bad 5ft **** all Kate Forbes is going to turn us back to the 50s!  

 

The go to turn of phrase of these so called progressives with Kate Forbes when they do concede she isn't a hate monger is that oh "well I don't think someone leading the country should merely tolerate my existance", its one of those where you just can't win. I mean, would they prefer she lied? What she's actually doing is demonstrating her ability to seperate church and state AND showcase her integrity at the same time (in not seeking to ofuscate or fudge the issue). Which can then be taken forward into other areas, like her commitment to ending child poverty, which we can gather is sincere given her integrity in not shying away from her views in more controversial and difficult areas. Its a demonstration of her principles and character - I disagree with her, but it doesn't taint my view of her. Humza on the other hand ran away and hid from the vote on gay marriage and didn't have the courage either way to back his convinctions, which I do not respect and does taint my view of him. 

 

The brass neck to actually go after her in this way - inferring her religious views pose a threat to people, meanwhile he himself rejecting an evidence based clinical report into his wee pet project is actually laughable. 

Bravo 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Is it not in itself very intolerant of Patrick Harvey and co not to respect Kate Forbes religious beliefs what ever they may be? Once can’t really cancel out the other surely?

Exactly . Didn’t say a poop about Humzas religion . 

[OTT]

10 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Is it not in itself very intolerant of Patrick Harvey and co not to respect Kate Forbes religious beliefs what ever they may be? Once can’t really cancel out the other surely?

 

Extremely IMO. 

 

Tolerance is a two way street, a far better position might have been to invite her to visit an LGBT clinic or something along those lines. He's made himself look like a petulant wee prick and another of the hyper intolerant "be kind" lot. 

[Gundermann]

36 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

 

 

I don't think she's brainwashed. Kate Forbes is an intelligent person, but I do think she is a product of her environment. Had she been born an hour up the road in any direction, she'd probably have attended a different church! The reality is that society is not one homogenous group and people are entitled to hold a variety of views on a variety of issues. As a Nationalist MSP, my only demands of her is: Commitment to Independence and commitment to a left of centre policy position.

 

It suits Patrick Harvey to paint Kate Forbes as some sort of hate monster, the reality couldn't be further from the truth - She will vote in the interests of her constituents, as shown by her vote on the expansion of buffer zones https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/votes-and-motions/S6M-13015. I bet wee Patrick was raging that he couldn't hold this up as an example of how big bad 5ft **** all Kate Forbes is going to turn us back to the 50s!  

 

The go to turn of phrase of these so called progressives with Kate Forbes when they do concede she isn't a hate monger is that oh "well I don't think someone leading the country should merely tolerate my existance", its one of those where you just can't win. I mean, would they prefer she lied? What she's actually doing is demonstrating her ability to seperate church and state AND showcase her integrity at the same time (in not seeking to ofuscate or fudge the issue). Which can then be taken forward into other areas, like her commitment to ending child poverty, which we can gather is sincere given her integrity in not shying away from her views in more controversial and difficult areas. Its a demonstration of her principles and character - I disagree with her, but it doesn't taint my view of her. Humza on the other hand ran away and hid from the vote on gay marriage and didn't have the courage either way to back his convinctions, which I do not respect and does taint my view of him. 

 

The brass neck to actually go after her in this way - inferring her religious views pose a threat to people, meanwhile he himself rejecting an evidence based clinical report into his wee pet project is actually laughable. 

 

I don't think she's a hate monster, she's just of her community.

 

Her views can post a threat though. I've met one of two young people who felt they had to move from the Western Isles due to being gay and from Wee Free families. Growing up gay, or even just a Sabbath breaker, and being taugh each week that you'll burn in hell is tantamount to abuse.

 

Kate Forbes is a mixed bag politically albeit socially conservative. That said, her religion is nuts and belongs left to history, IMHO.

Edited May 9 by Gundermann

[luckydug]

3 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

I get totally about what your saying.  I am just adding the demographics up here will change,  It is just a consideration at this time, but by the time of a GE and a HGE it will all be up in the air.   I am just considering that the SNP footprint will suffer because some people have been turned off by them, and then there is a protest vote against the Tories, so in those constituencies held by the SNP, people will vote Labour to get rid of the Tories, instead of the SNP.  Plus people will vote labour to get rid of the SNP.  The SNP are no longer the alternative to the Tories.  The SNP will face a double whammy.   Not everywhere, not everybody is stupid.  I also should consider if people will vote Alba thus watering down the Indy drive.  That will also play into labours hands.

Think you'll be very disappointed on Election night.

Labour will win big in England and SNP will retain most of their Scottish seats.

Keir Starmer has blown Labour's chances in Scotland by allowing a far right politician in to the LP.

Most potential Labour voters in Scotland are horrified by what he's allowed to happen.

Red Tories.

[The Mighty Thor]

15 minutes ago, luckydug said:

Think you'll be very disappointed on Election night.

Labour will win big in England and SNP will retain most of their Scottish seats.

Keir Starmer has blown Labour's chances in Scotland by allowing a far right politician in to the LP.

Most potential Labour voters in Scotland are horrified by what he's allowed to happen.

Red Tories.

There also will be a lot of Scottish voters that will find the Labour stance on Gaza unacceptable.

 

You've also got to factor in the 'culture wars' nonsense that ropes in the hard of thinking and outright bigoted. 

[Lord Montpelier]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

 

Yeah, I think they pick and choose when to play their 'faith card'. They think it goes down well with voters and probably does with the conservatively minded. I recall reading that the Daily Mail chief was a big fan of Gordon Brown as he saw him as a traditional church-going and hardworking British pillar of the community type.

 

Religion and state should be separate in all areas of society.

Yep agree

[Hagar the Horrible]

17 minutes ago, luckydug said:

Think you'll be very disappointed on Election night.

Labour will win big in England and SNP will retain most of their Scottish seats.

Keir Starmer has blown Labour's chances in Scotland by allowing a far right politician in to the LP.

Most potential Labour voters in Scotland are horrified by what he's allowed to happen.

Red Tories.

I think I will get over it, But for me it is more in the process I am interested in, the analytical part of it, and the demographics, and how change happens.

[Hagar the Horrible]

Anyhoo harveys face while asking his question?   if fact the whole lot of the Greens looked like they could turn milk sour!

 

He really is a despicable human being,  He pretty much had a a go at somebody for their church beliefs, so people are not allowed according to him to have any part in Scottish politics,  It is not as though Humza has a religion that has views not too far off Kates Church's view?

 

I did notice that they abstained in their vote for Swinney as new FM, looks like the only thing Green about the Greens is their gills

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Anyhoo harveys face while asking his question?   if fact the whole lot of the Greens looked like they could turn milk sour!

 

He really is a despicable human being,  He pretty much had a a go at somebody for their church beliefs, so people are not allowed according to him to have any part in Scottish politics,  It is not as though Humza has a religion that has views not too far off Kates Church's view?

 

I did notice that they abstained in their vote for Swinney as new FM, looks like the only thing Green about the Greens is their gills

They are in the huff big time . They have been pit in their place . Their dangerous policies about gender nonsense is now seen for what it is . That’s all they had . Nothing else . Hope they are consigned to the dustbin . Be great if the SNP prove they don’t need to rely on them in votes .  Shame  the SNP didn’t do this a long time ago 

[Hagar the Horrible]

2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

They are in the huff big time . They have been pit in their place . Their dangerous policies about gender nonsense is now seen for what it is . That’s all they had . Nothing else . Hope they are consigned to the dustbin . Be great if the SNP prove they don’t need to rely on them in votes .  Shame  the SNP didn’t do this a long time ago 

The SNP managed to get Swinney in place without their vote.

 

But the reason they are there is they are all on the list vote, in which they are there by SNP second voters

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Hagar the Horrible said:

The SNP managed to get Swinney in place without their vote.

 

But the reason they are there is they are all on the list vote, in which they are there by SNP second voters

Yes I know how they are there . I actually agree with the Scottish system compared to FPTP . Suppose there’s some negatives about it like the greens but that’s democracy for us . Some people voted for them . Fair enough . 

[hughesie27]

I don't think the GRR would be in the average voters top 10 issues or even have much of an opinion on when it comes to election time. It gained more media coverage not because of what it contains but rather the split it created in the Independence/Westminster debate.

 

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 hours ago, Gundermann said:

Yes, he missed the vote. The Gay Times article notes that but also notes his various statements of support over the years for LGBT rights. You can't just ignore that because it doesn't support your narrative on HY. Sure, he was underwhelming as a leader and criticise him on his record/ failures/ whatever but he clearly isn't homophobic and there's no evidence that his politics are informed by his religion.

 

Agree re Forbes. She's not a Galloway/ Farage-type hater. She's just naive and brainwashed by her religion. Her supporters call her critics 'anti Christian' but that's hardly true when Swinney is a church goer and even Ian Blackford who's apparently in the same church as Forbes. I think the cherry picking of religious texts by any Christian or Muslim is ludicrous but most politicians seem able to divorce their faith from their politics.

So Forbes is brainwashed by her religion! Was Humza brainwashed by his?

It seems that the believers have now decided that Forbes can be pilloried for being Christian but if you say same about Humza then you are Islamaphobic. Double standards in play here.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

So Forbes is brainwashed by her religion! Was Humza brainwashed by his?

It seems that the believers have now decided that Forbes can be pilloried for being Christian but if you say same about Humza then you are Islamaphobic. Double standards in play here.

I know . It’s so pathetic . Bigots really ! 😎

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

 

Can you name some of these policies? And, can you explain why people voted for both parties?

 

Some of these policies:

- Hate crime bill.

- Gender Recognition Bill to undermine Women's rights.

- Heat Pump legislation plans (which they revoked to avoid losing votes at impending GE): https://www.gov.scot/policies/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-in-homes/

 

To answer your second point, SNP voters vote for them regardless of their policies or performance in government.  There isn't much you can do to debate with that lack of intelligence.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just a reminder 

 

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

2 hours ago, Gundermann said:

 

Agree re Forbes. She's not a Galloway/ Farage-type hater. She's just naive and brainwashed by her religion.

 

It's funny that you should point this out, seeing that the moral certainty which appears to inform your viewpoint across a number of subject matters is profoundly Lutheran.

[hughesie27]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Some of these policies:

 

- Gender Recognition Bill to undermine Women's rights.

 

 

How does it undermine Women's Rights? Genuine question. 

[Ked]

6 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Given the extremist left wing policies of the SNP and greens this past couple of Holyrood parliaments I don't think people would switch their vote over to the SNP - a party who is under criminal investigation for embezzlement.

Extreme left wing ?

🤣🤣🤣

[Gundermann]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Some of these policies:

- Hate crime bill.

- Gender Recognition Bill to undermine Women's rights.

- Heat Pump legislation plans (which they revoked to avoid losing votes at impending GE): https://www.gov.scot/policies/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-in-homes/

 

To answer your second point, SNP voters vote for them regardless of their policies or performance in government.  There isn't much you can do to debate with that lack of intelligence.

 

You consider these as 'extremist'?! 

 

You may not agree with them or may doubt the ability of them to meet their aims - I've got painful experience of Home Energy Scotland and their heat pump provision so am equally doubtful -  but they're hardly extremist...

 

Further, all the policies you mention, AFAIK, have cross-party support with the exception of the Tories, more or less. Labour for example has promised to run the entire UK on green energy by 2030. Unrealistic, yes IMO but that's hardly extremist. Welcoming someone who's to the right of Rees-Mogg into the party is.

[Gundermann]

2 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

So Forbes is brainwashed by her religion! Was Humza brainwashed by his?

It seems that the believers have now decided that Forbes can be pilloried for being Christian but if you say same about Humza then you are Islamaphobic. Double standards in play here.

 

Yes. I've no truck with any religion and forcing it upon kids is wrong IMO.

[Malinga the Swinga]

3 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Yes. I've no truck with any religion and forcing it upon kids is wrong IMO.

We agree on something then🙂. I wouldn't allow religious education in schools not would I permit faith schools. All they do is further prejudice.

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Just a reminder 

 

 

They're a duplicitous lot, but then again, they're politicians, so none of this comes as a surprise.

[manaliveits105]

2 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Just a reminder 

 

 

Incredulous and Indefensible 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 hours ago, Gundermann said:

Growing up gay, or even just a Sabbath breaker, and being taugh each week that you'll burn in hell is tantamount to abuse.

Clearly better than getting thrown of buildings. 

[smallfaces]

3 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

So Forbes is brainwashed by her religion! Was Humza brainwashed by his?

It seems that the believers have now decided that Forbes can be pilloried for being Christian but if you say same about Humza then you are Islamaphobic. Double standards in play here.

Does Patrick have and opinion on other members of Holyrood and which period of history they belong to?

For example John Mason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mason_(Scottish_politician)

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

 

You consider these as 'extremist'?! 

 

You may not agree with them or may doubt the ability of them to meet their aims - I've got painful experience of Home Energy Scotland and their heat pump provision so am equally doubtful -  but they're hardly extremist...

 

Further, all the policies you mention, AFAIK, have cross-party support with the exception of the Tories, more or less. Labour for example has promised to run the entire UK on green energy by 2030. Unrealistic, yes IMO but that's hardly extremist. Welcoming someone who's to the right of Rees-Mogg into the party is.

 

Stripping away women's rights to placade the LGBT vote is extremist.

 

You don't think devaluing people's properties is extreme?

 

Heat pumps are flawed and far more expensive to run than Gas so are not a viable alternative.

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 minutes ago, smallfaces said:

Does Patrick have and opinion on other members of Holyrood and which period of history they belong to?

For example John Mason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mason_(Scottish_politician)

I think Patrick has a problem with anyone who stands up to him and won't allow him to get his own way. She's also a woman and he doesn't seem to like them very much. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Dp

Edited May 9 by JudyJudyJudy

[hughesie27]

16 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Stripping away women's rights to placade the LGBT vote is extremist.

 

You don't think devaluing people's properties is extreme?

 

Heat pumps are flawed and far more expensive to run than Gas so are not a viable alternative.

Which rights?

[Mikey1874]

17 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Which rights?

 

For example to live in a women's refuge with women only. The Greens want people born as men who say they are women to access all woman only spaces and services. 

[Mikey1874]

Anyway.

 

 

[hughesie27]

19 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

For example to live in a women's refuge with women only. The Greens want people born as men who say they are women to access all woman only spaces and services. 

How does that inflict on their Rights? 

[Mikey1874]

7 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

How does that inflict on their Rights? 

 

The right to safety

[hughesie27]

9 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The right to safety

They should probably not let unsafe people join their groups tbh.

I assume trans women aren't already able to access these services?

 

Probably not the thread to get bogged back into this tbh.

Edited May 9 by hughesie27