Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Gundermann]

15 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

But it wasn't. It was held and you lost and if it was held again now, the result would be the same 

The majority of Scotland doesn't want independence, it really isn't that difficult to understand.

 

The polls say that at least half of Scots do want independence. Though, there is only one way to test that.

 

There have been major changes in the UK since 2014, including the promise that a no-vote would see us stay in EU being broken. We need another vote and the refusal of Tory and Labour to grant that is telling.

[JudyJudyJudy]

23 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

The polls say that at least half of Scots do want independence. Though, there is only one way to test that.

 

There have been major changes in the UK since 2014, including the promise that a no-vote would see us stay in EU being broken. We need another vote and the refusal of Tory and Labour to grant that is telling.

 

[hughesie27]

6 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

Thr SNP are in your words "finished" Judy. Can you explain what you mean by that? 

[Libertarian]

9 hours ago, AyrJambo said:

And more

 

https://robinmcalpine.org/the-snp-is-a-failed-project/

This is a brilliant article AyrJambo. I left the SNP in 2017 as it was clear to me then that the SNP would never deliver independence and that they had indeed morphed into the establishment and a barrier to independence. It's now so obvious that only the deluded would believe otherwise.

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 hours ago, AyrJambo said:

And more

 

https://robinmcalpine.org/the-snp-is-a-failed-project/

Very good article . 

[doctor jambo]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

 

It sounds like under your policy you would be moving people from private houses into council-owned ones since you baulk at paying private landlords. Given the waiting list, I assume they will have to be housed in derelict, abandoned housing estates or presumably you would prefer a programme to build a significant amount of social housing to house people out of work. Would people with mortgages have their houses reclaimed to cover the costs before being moved to a new estate as paying their mortgage/interest is money going straight into private finance.

Establishing a national energy generation company just so we pay ourselves for energy for people on benefits, would it be run as a non-profit and protected from the turbulent energy market? Backed by?

Once people are moved into their houses, will they have limits on how much energy they can use? Will they be getting food and clothing vouchers and are they allowed any other utilities for free: broadband, computer, mobile phone + contract? 

Assuming the above was possible and somehow voted for, it has to be paid for.  You'll need to withdraw your complaints about our progressive taxation system to give us any hope of financing it.

 

Paying all this stuff inc broadband would be cheaper than the current system.

Supplying energy from the wind farms we should own , built by companies we did take over was possible .

SNP chose not to do it.

What is the point in handing over money in benefits to then take it back?

Its , well, dumb.

Id have also taken over, say, Stewart Milne group and turned it into a national housing builder that could build social housing.

Lack of imagination and ambition .

That is what keeps us down

[hughesie27]

20 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

FFS starting as he means to go on , they are finished 

So rare for you to hold your tongue.

 

Realised you were talking out your arse?

 

Or pretending to have me on ignore? 😂

[Australis]

2 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

Well it was worded as generation. And they are yet to hold another. Another also seems a long way off. But in around 10 years it would be fair to say a generation has passed.

 

Since losing they have won election after election on the grounds of many policies, to main being a continued effort to lead Scotland to Independence. If you don't agree with that then that's absolutely fine. But maybe you should accept the results of the elections and expect the party that won to try and carry out it's policy goals. 

 

Or just cry more.

No crying, love the hurt and damage my no vote did to the nationalists.

 

Me and many others are all-around you day after day as happy as wee pigs in ........

[That thing you do]

26 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

This is a brilliant article AyrJambo. I left the SNP in 2017 as it was clear to me then that the SNP would never deliver independence and that they had indeed morphed into the establishment and a barrier to independence. It's now so obvious that only the deluded would believe otherwise.

Agreed. I left for the same reason.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Australis said:

No crying, love the hurt and damage my no vote did to the nationalists.

 

Me and many others are all-around you day after day as happy as wee pigs in ........

I’ve tried to be reasonable in the last few days regarding posting !! Really I have !! I respect Ayr Jambo postings and agree with much of what he says . However it’s clear that the people wanting Indy will never , ever accept the status quo and just continually agitate for Indy ref after Indy ref . Sadly this division and grievence is causing Scotland to collapse in every conceivable way . Scotland is now a former shadow of its self . Once a proud economically viable country , it’s now full of self loathing, bitterness  and hatred . I honestly had hoped that the SNP would see sense and have Someone like Kate Forbes at the helm to steady the ship abd concentrate “ on the day job “ but with Swinney it’s more of the same . Proves to be they aren’t serious about Indy 

[manaliveits105]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

Lovely jubbly 

dry yer eyes smurfs 

 

[AyrJambo]

5 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Lovely jubbly 

dry yer eyes smurfs 

 

 

Misplaced glee from you as usual

From the figures shown in that screenshot the mean lead for No is 3.9%

So as I have said repeatedly the country is split 50 - 50 give or take 3 or 4 % points in either direction

Edited May 3 by AyrJambo

[Japan Jambo]

4 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Lovely jubbly 

dry yer eyes smurfs 

 

 

Those numbers can't possibly be accurate, the received wisdom on this thread is that over 50% of Scots want Independence. Besides don't you know that the only number that counts is the result in an actual referendum - unless of course you don't like that result in which case the question must be asked again, until you get to the 'right' answer...

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, BlueRiver said:

 

What was polling running at when the act was actually passed? 

 

Of course JJJ may have meant if held today but perhaps it was more an innocent misreading of something saying at the time it would have failed. The closest I find is a consultation which has 53% in favour of marriage for all couples in 2012. 

 

 

 

There were several polls and surveys carried out from about 2008 onward in the UK, all of which pointed to majorities of varying sizes in favour of marriage equality.  I'd link them but they are all archived PDFs and a bit messy to access.

 

You could take a quick look at this Wikipedia article if you like, as it quotes headline numbers and provides links to several polls.

 

I don't think there were any polls that showed a majority against marriage equality in the 5 years leading up to the English legislation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

 

[AyrJambo]

11 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Those numbers can't possibly be accurate, the received wisdom on this thread is that over 50% of Scots want Independence. Besides don't you know that the only number that counts is the result in an actual referendum - unless of course you don't like that result in which case the question must be asked again, until you get to the 'right' answer...

 

No one's disputing the numbers Japan

Just the interpretation of what they actually mean

[pablo]

2 hours ago, Gundermann said:

 

The polls say that at least half of Scots do want independence. Though, there is only one way to test that.

 

There have been major changes in the UK since 2014, including the promise that a no-vote would see us stay in EU being broken. We need another vote and the refusal of Tory and Labour to grant that is telling.

 

To a binary question? Polls also say that the question isn't a priority for Scots.

[Radio Ga Ga]

[BlueRiver]

39 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

There were several polls and surveys carried out from about 2008 onward in the UK, all of which pointed to majorities of varying sizes in favour of marriage equality.  I'd link them but they are all archived PDFs and a bit messy to access.

 

You could take a quick look at this Wikipedia article if you like, as it quotes headline numbers and provides links to several polls.

 

I don't think there were any polls that showed a majority against marriage equality in the 5 years leading up to the English legislation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

 

 

Cheers 👍

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, Gundermann said:

 

The polls say that at least half of Scots do want independence. Though, there is only one way to test that.

 

There have been major changes in the UK since 2014, including the promise that a no-vote would see us stay in EU being broken. We need another vote and the refusal of Tory and Labour to grant that is telling.

 

This EU thing is a case of double standards.  Perfectly fine to leave the EU in 2014 under Independence but a travesty when the whole of the UK (including Scotland) votes to leave.

[lou]

On 30/04/2024 at 20:46, jamboinglasgow said:

 

 

26 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

This EU thing is a case of double standards.  Perfectly fine to leave the EU in 2014 under Independence but a travesty when the whole of the UK (including Scotland) votes to leave.

Scotland didn't vote to leave the EU, though 

Edited May 3 by lou

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, lou said:

 

Scotland didn't vote to leave the EU, though 

 

Scotland didn't have a Brexit vote.

[lou]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Scotland didn't have a Brexit vote

The people of Scotland did and voted against leaving 

[AyrJambo]

1 minute ago, lou said:

The people of Scotland did and voted against leaving 

He means because it was a UK-wide vote

And it was

Another example of how the wishes of the Scottish people are not served well by the union

[doctor jambo]

2 hours ago, AyrJambo said:

 

No one's disputing the numbers Japan

Just the interpretation of what they actually mean

My take is that many people voted as they dont like a Tory government.

Sea change is coming in England, tories are OUT - and many up here are now looking to Labour

I suspect many wanted independence from a conservative government

[Gundermann]

58 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

This EU thing is a case of double standards.  Perfectly fine to leave the EU in 2014 under Independence but a travesty when the whole of the UK (including Scotland) votes to leave.

 

Not really. Whether us leaving the UK would automatically take us out of the EU is debatable. What isn't debatable is Scotland voted overwhelmingly against Brexit but were taken out because of the imbalance of the so-called Union. We were told in 2014 that a no-vote would not only guarantee our EU membership but see us 'lead the Union' and be in a 'Union of equals'. All of that was BS.

[Gizmo]

2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Paying all this stuff inc broadband would be cheaper than the current system.

Supplying energy from the wind farms we should own , built by companies we did take over was possible .

SNP chose not to do it.

What is the point in handing over money in benefits to then take it back?

Its , well, dumb.

Id have also taken over, say, Stewart Milne group and turned it into a national housing builder that could build social housing. 🤔

Lack of imagination and ambition .

That is what keeps us down

Would it be cheaper? You've not sat down and costed this, looked at the admin or regulatory changes required to put any of it in place, explored the ramifications of what you believe to be simple changes nor the societal and economic changes that would need to be in place to make any of these policies a reality. 

I think you'll have a lot of difficulty finding any party that puts forward policies that match your imagination.

[Gizmo]

2 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Not really. Whether us leaving the UK would automatically take us out of the EU is debatable. What isn't debatable is Scotland voted overwhelmingly against Brexit but were taken out because of the imbalance of the so-called Union. We were told in 2014 that a no-vote would not only guarantee our EU membership but see us 'lead the Union' and be in a 'Union of equals'. All of that was BS.

As close to federalism was how Gordon Brown sold it. 

Scottish Labour then sat in on the additional powers committee and made little of the opportunity to request additional powers with the Scottish Conservatives looking for more.

That didn't avow me of the belief that Scottish Labour is just a branch of Labour UK with little autonomy beyond being allowed to stock their preferred brands of coffee and biscuits. Nothing Starmer has said or done changes this belief.

[Gundermann]

3 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

As close to federalism was how Gordon Brown sold it. 

Scottish Labour then sat in on the additional powers committee and made little of the opportunity to request additional powers with the Scottish Conservatives looking for more.

That didn't avow me of the belief that Scottish Labour is just a branch of Labour UK with little autonomy beyond being allowed to stock their preferred brands of coffee and biscuits. Nothing Starmer has said or done changes this belief.

 

Forgot about the federalism promise. Funny how others still remember the 'once in a generation' comment from Salmond though?

 

Yeah, Labour know they're just northern branch office. Many of them rightly livid with Starmer. If only they had the baws to do something about it.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24295708.scottish-labour-fury-keir-starmer-waters-workers-rights-plan/

[AyrJambo]

18 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

My take is that many people voted as they dont like a Tory government.

Sea change is coming in England, tories are OUT - and many up here are now looking to Labour

I suspect many wanted independence from a conservative government

 

But it wouldn't really be a sea change would it?

Blue BritNats replaced by Red BritNats

And the establishment continues lining it's pockets, plundering assets and that's all OK because "Sir" Keir is now the figurehead

 

That won't make any difference to the plight of Scotland and after a few years the Blue BritNats will be back in government

Anyone voting for independence because they don't like the tories and then voting labour because they think that's the problem solved is must be a bit hard of thinking imo

[manaliveits105]

Mon the Scottish Red Conservative and Unionist Party 

[AyrJambo]

15 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Mon the Scottish Red Conservative and Unionist Party 

 

Yeah they might as well amalgamate with "Scottish" Blue Labour and form the Purple Party 😄

Edited May 3 by AyrJambo
add pic

[lost in space]

21 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 

But it wouldn't really be a sea change would it?

Blue BritNats replaced by Red BritNats

And the establishment continues lining it's pockets, plundering assets and that's all OK because "Sir" Keir is now the figurehead

 

That won't make any difference to the plight of Scotland and after a few years the Blue BritNats will be back in government

Anyone voting for independence because they don't like the tories and then voting labour because they think that's the problem solved is must be a bit hard of thinking imo

Since the CE of the main Independence party has just been arrested and charged with embezzlement + his wife and others are still under investigation - are you REALLY best placed to point the finger, re lining of pockets and plundering assets??

And maybe to then to accuse of "hard of thinking".........

REALLY?

[AyrJambo]

1 minute ago, lost in space said:

Since the CE of the main Independence party has just been arrested and charged with embezzlement + his wife and others are still under investigation - are you REALLY best placed to point the finger, re lining of pockets and plundering assets??

And maybe to then to accuse of "hard of thinking".........

REALLY?

 

Comparing the petty pilfering by a criminal clique who seem to have hi-jacked a political party with the billions of assets stripped out of Scotland by the UK over centuries

REALLY?

[lost in space]

5 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 

Comparing the petty pilfering by a criminal clique who seem to have hi-jacked a political party with the billions of assets stripped out of Scotland by the UK over centuries

REALLY?

Re the scale of the frauds - you are probably right.

The people of Scotland have rightly been angry at UK politicians due to their dishonesty - and many Indy supporters thought that by leaving the UK, we would put that dishonesty behind us.  Only to find that our leaders are just as dishonest (subject to court proceedings, of course) - but just not as clever!!!

And as for the EU - Wow - these guys are on a different scale altogether - yet most Scots would re-join tomorrow.

[AyrJambo]

13 minutes ago, lost in space said:

Re the scale of the frauds - you are probably right.

The people of Scotland have rightly been angry at UK politicians due to their dishonesty - and many Indy supporters thought that by leaving the UK, we would put that dishonesty behind us.  Only to find that our leaders are just as dishonest (subject to court proceedings, of course) - but just not as clever!!!

And as for the EU - Wow - these guys are on a different scale altogether - yet most Scots would re-join tomorrow.

 

Fair points

And there could be more to come out of Branchform - how certain companies obtained land and operating licences from SG for example

 

Although no-one can teach the UK anything about asset theft - they've done it all over the world

[JudyJudyJudy]

The brass neck on her . and I mean Jimmy  

 

 

https://x.com/joannaccherry/status/1786381562793095622?s=46&t=Uyg6zS_aUfEwlXY6vOoxzQ

 

 

Edited May 3 by JudyJudyJudy

[The Real Maroonblood]

5 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

Thr SNP are in your words "finished" Judy. Can you explain what you mean by that? 

The said poster is a complete slaver and a drama queen.

[hughesie27]

2 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

The said poster is a complete slaver and a drama queen.

Spends a lot of his days reading and debating a party and political movement that's is over. 

[OTT]

 

2 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

The brass neck on her . and I mean Jimmy  

 

 

https://x.com/joannaccherry/status/1786381562793095622?s=46&t=Uyg6zS_aUfEwlXY6vOoxzQ

 

 

 

Not just Joanna that is horrified by this - Neal Hanvey tweeted similar. 

 

The same Nicola Sturgeon that described womens concerns about self ID as "Not Valid". 

 

Honestly, Alba need to stand a candidate against her. The faster Holyrood and the SNP are rid of her influence the better. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

18 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

 

Not just Joanna that is horrified by this - Neal Hanvey tweeted similar. 

 

The same Nicola Sturgeon that described womens concerns about self ID as "Not Valid". 

 

Honestly, Alba need to stand a candidate against her. The faster Holyrood and the SNP are rid of her influence the better. 

Yes she’s poisonous . 

[OTT]

 

 

A really good episode of Scotland Speaks. Personally, really enjoy listening to Robin talking about political strategy re Independence. He speaks a lot of sense and does so in a really down to earth and easy to understand manner. Would recommend watching for the duration he's on (2:00 to c31:30).

 

Suggests that the SNP are on road to political ruin if they cannot shake this internal party machinery/careerist agenda which is at odds with the wider membership. Just how much of a sham election Humza's leadership was to begin with - already had flyers and a campaign ready to go when Sturgeon resigned, virtually the entire payroll behind him (which is ****ing weird, group think dangerous). 

 

Was initially unsure of what to think with Swinney, but some very valid points raised - he is a very divisive choice, not really a leader with a vision. Reeks of administrator type, and the SNP urgently needed fresh ideas, fresh faces and a fresh agenda. 

 

The despiration from this careerist cabal at the heart of the SNP to refuse to give ground to Alba certainly ponders thought.

 

If in 2026 Alba can replace the greens as the alternative Independence party to such an extent as to hold the balance of power, then we might actually get those 3 years of quality governance that Robin talks about to help put us firmly on the path to Independence. Interesting part though about the political route having neared its end. Alba had a member that left recently that has formed a group essentially geared at trying to reach out into Schemes to promote Independence - believe the general view is that this is a large and untapped voter base which could hold huge potential, especially as the blue and red tories continue to punch down. 

 

From what he's said, if a YES Scotland non-party group without being puppeteered by the SNP could be formed there could be great success in delivering that breakthrough consistent polling. 

[Dirty Deeds]

18 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

 

A really good episode of Scotland Speaks. Personally, really enjoy listening to Robin talking about political strategy re Independence. He speaks a lot of sense and does so in a really down to earth and easy to understand manner. Would recommend watching for the duration he's on (2:00 to c31:30).

 

 

 

Whilst I agree with your comments about SNP careerists and John Swinney, I cannot imagine Alba gaining any traction. 

 

I doubt many have time left for the likes of Salmond, Macaskill and Regan - these people are liabilities not vote winners.

 

SNP needs new a clear out and it won't happen until they sit on Holyrood's opposition benches and the gravy train moves on for the careerists.

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, Dirty Deeds said:

SNP needs new a clear out and it won't happen until they sit on Holyrood's opposition benches and the gravy train moves on for the careerists.

Agreed 

[OTT]

17 minutes ago, Dirty Deeds said:

Whilst I agree with your comments about SNP careerists and John Swinney, I cannot imagine Alba gaining any traction. 

 

I doubt many have time left for the likes of Salmond, Macaskill and Regan - these people are liabilities not vote winners.

 

SNP needs new a clear out and it won't happen until they sit on Holyrood's opposition benches and the gravy train moves on for the careerists.

 

Alba are starting to make some headway. Nationally, its not hugely impressive but in Fife it was up at 8% which would return at least 1 list MSP - likely Neale Hanvey.

 

I think the key way for Independence supporters to think of Alba is that its a minority party to help tip the scales of the Scottish parliament into being a supermajority in favour of Independence. 

 

 

Over 1m votes on the list utterly wasted to deliver 2 seats. Meanwhile Labour couldn't even get half and yet were rewarded with 20 seats. 

 

There is huge potential for Alba if they can figure out how to convince SNP voters to part with their 2nd vote. Strong consistent messaging about SNP2 being a waste of time needs to be what is shouted from the roof tops. 

[Dirty Deeds]

31 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Alba are starting to make some headway. Nationally, its not hugely impressive but in Fife it was up at 8% which would return at least 1 list MSP - likely Neale Hanvey.

 

I think the key way for Independence supporters to think of Alba is that its a minority party to help tip the scales of the Scottish parliament into being a supermajority in favour of Independence. 

 

 

Over 1m votes on the list utterly wasted to deliver 2 seats. Meanwhile Labour couldn't even get half and yet were rewarded with 20 seats. 

 

There is huge potential for Alba if they can figure out how to convince SNP voters to part with their 2nd vote. Strong consistent messaging about SNP2 being a waste of time needs to be what is shouted from the roof tops. 

Agreed totally with the idea but couldn't stomach voting for anything that involves Macaskill. Alba also needs to change at the top.

[XB52]

39 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Alba are starting to make some headway. Nationally, its not hugely impressive but in Fife it was up at 8% which would return at least 1 list MSP - likely Neale Hanvey.

 

I think the key way for Independence supporters to think of Alba is that its a minority party to help tip the scales of the Scottish parliament into being a supermajority in favour of Independence. 

 

 

Over 1m votes on the list utterly wasted to deliver 2 seats. Meanwhile Labour couldn't even get half and yet were rewarded with 20 seats. 

 

There is huge potential for Alba if they can figure out how to convince SNP voters to part with their 2nd vote. Strong consistent messaging about SNP2 being a waste of time needs to be what is shouted from the roof tops. 

If, as seems likely with current polling, the SNP lose plenty of seats to Labour in 1st past the post, then SNP2 is a necessity.

Alba are a joke party 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Go for it JK !!!! 😂😂😂

 

https://x.com/thescotsman/status/1786436018700181854?s=46&t=Uyg6zS_aUfEwlXY6vOoxzQ
 

 

[OTT]

32 minutes ago, Dirty Deeds said:

Agreed totally with the idea but couldn't stomach voting for anything that involves Macaskill. Alba also needs to change at the top.

 

Why don't you like Macaskill ? 

 

I think the difficulty is that launching a new political party successfully takes time, and name recognition. Unfortunately people are very "brand" loyal with who they vote for. So become challenging to break that mindset. ISP for example haven't made any waves at all despite being founded before Alba and TBH don't serve any meaningful purpose as a viable political entity/ vehicle to bring about their aims. Alba are starting to register seats based on vote share, so are making the headway despite a bit of a marmite leadership.

 

I don't think changing the top is a good idea, although I'm a bit unsure on Chris McEleny's appropriateness as Party Sec since people have left because of his inability to communicate effectively with them - Eva Comrie and others. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, OTT said:

 

Alba are starting to make some headway. Nationally, its not hugely impressive but in Fife it was up at 8% which would return at least 1 list MSP - likely Neale Hanvey.

 

I think the key way for Independence supporters to think of Alba is that its a minority party to help tip the scales of the Scottish parliament into being a supermajority in favour of Independence. 

 

 

Over 1m votes on the list utterly wasted to deliver 2 seats. Meanwhile Labour couldn't even get half and yet were rewarded with 20 seats. 

 

There is huge potential for Alba if they can figure out how to convince SNP voters to part with their 2nd vote. Strong consistent messaging about SNP2 being a waste of time needs to be what is shouted from the roof tops. 

Yes surely AlBa can muster some seats on the list . It’s a real conundrum how they aren’t making inroads ? I do wonder of they might get some of the greens votes ? 

[OTT]

28 minutes ago, XB52 said:

If, as seems likely with current polling, the SNP lose plenty of seats to Labour in 1st past the post, then SNP2 is a necessity.

Alba are a joke party 

 

Does that not demonstrate that the current direction of travel with the SNP is badly wrong? 

 

Swinney has 2 years to stem the tide. I think it can be done. Around 50% of our country want Indpendence and want something to rally behind, that gives that block vote that the SNP have enjoyed up to now. Its just about breaking through voter apathy and refocusing on Independence and the route to get there. Its why the SNP are voted for in droves. People want Independence. 

 

On Alba, your views are known. But the current circumstances that allowed a Nationalist First Minister to be brought down were brought about by failing to secure a Nationalist supermajority in the Parliament. Had it been SNP1 ALBA2 in 2021, we'd have seen 20 odd Alba MSPs elected and a renewed focus on delivering Independence and strong opposition from Salmond to push the SNP back to delivering on core issues instead of divisive fringe issues like the GRA or the various green vanity projects. 

 

The greens actions in bringing down Humza were purely petulant and actually lend reason to why he was correct to bin them from Government, it was emotion, they were angry and that guided their position which is bad. The simple fact is that the Tories think they're lunatics, and Labour would sooner work with the Lib dems/ Tories. A continuation of Humza and his strong position on Gaza whilst being able to push their own green in a less formal arrangement might have worked, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the SNP called "Tartan Tories" under Swinney? He's absolutely further to the right than Humza and with Forbes agreeing to step back, it might be in exchange for a pivot to more central of the road policies which aren't really in keeping with the heavy lurch to the left under Sturgeon/ BHA.