Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[i wish jj was my dad]

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Liz Truss is the Tory equivalent of our first minister.  Neither fit for purpose.

 

The SNP racked up a £1.5bn budget shortfall at Holyrood despite not having anything like the same financial responsibilities.

 

You have brought this to the table before. 

All administrations in the UK are on their arse and SG haven't exactly spent all that wisely but for context at the last count UK debt was sitting at £2700bn, I think. 

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Ah Frankie boy many words and no sense again.

 

Let's run through the arguments again

 

What's the cost of independence? 

No one knows. No one can know. What we do know is the cost of being better together. It's getting on for 5% of GDP, living standards from the 70s, wage growth a fraction of our G7 partners, higher inflation and lower prospects. All provable facts since 2014. 

What does staying in the Union look like?

 

So will independence safeguard the jobs of the many thousands in the likes of finance and Oil and Gas industries or put them at risk?

 

How would being independent have worked out during the pandemic and would it have had a negative or positive impact? Your argument seems to be to remove us from the G7 would strengthen our economy? 🤷‍♂️

 

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The SNP fraud. More than 2 years of investigation, Fred West tents and thousands of police man hours for? Zero. Absolutely nothing. 

 

Ok.  Did they publish fully audited accounts in that case?

 

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Are you genuinely trying to use Liz Truss as an argument against independence? 😂 think about it. 

 

I'm comparing her crashing the economy to what the SNP would do to ours given the powers.

 

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Ah the old oil and gas red herring. Oil and gas has kept the UK afloat since the 1970s and successive Westminster governments have spunked that golden bounty to leave us with a national debt racing towards £3 trillion. How does that compare with other North Sea Oil and gas countries?

 

That captain hindsight argument doesn't help us now.  We don't have an oil fund like Norway, and bitching about it doesn't help either argument.

 

The SNP have made their position clear that they want to block future developments in this sector so it can't be considered an asset for independence, can it?

 

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Currency? 😂

 

Scotland is a poorer country since 2014 solely by having its economic and fiscal  policy dictated to it by Westminster. Fact. 

 

 

 

Writing Fact at the end of your sentence doesn't make it a fact.  The word you were looking for is opinion.

 

Without evidence of independence policies you can't model the economic effect at all.

[Roxy Hearts]

14 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Liz Truss is the Tory equivalent of our first minister.  Neither fit for purpose.

 

The SNP racked up a £1.5bn budget shortfall at Holyrood despite not having anything like the same financial responsibilities.

 

The UK government have got a debt of over 2 trillion! Bad SNP and big bad Humza. 

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

You have brought this to the table before. 

All administrations in the UK are on their arse and SG haven't exactly spent all that wisely but for context at the last count UK debt was sitting at £2700bn, I think. 

 

A sizeable chunk of that will be due to Scotland's costs.  Mismanaged absolutely but we need the Tories out.

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

The UK government have got a debt of over 2 trillion! Bad SNP and big bad Humza. 

 

More whatabootery.  Still waiting for your answers to my earlier post.

 

I can wait.

[The Mighty Thor]

58 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

That will be the Liz Truss that cost the UK £30 billion Frank. £30 billion. 

That'll be the Liz Truss that wiped £400 billion off UK pension funds. 

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

 

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

Hell of a lot of halfwits UK wide.

 

yes there are John. 

 

an incredible number and they keep on doing it over and over.

[Roxy Hearts]

19 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

More whatabootery.  Still waiting for your answers to my earlier post.

 

I can wait.

It's not whataboutery, it's what we're currently living with and paying for as part of this rotten establishment. I'm just highlighting your hypocrisy. 

 

I'll take independence where we can make our own decisions. 

 

I told you that you mentioned "Liz Truss" so I stopped reading. When a fool is being foolish you let them carry on. Have some confidence in your own people for goodness sake!

[The Mighty Thor]

40 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Yip.  Just a drip in the ocean compared to the damage the clowns at Holyrood would do to Scotland's economy and jobs with no plan and zero concrete policies published.

 

You able to back that up Franky boy? 

34 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Liz Truss is the Tory equivalent of our first minister.  Neither fit for purpose.

 

The SNP racked up a £1.5bn budget shortfall at Holyrood despite not having anything like the same financial responsibilities.

 

Mind the last time you brought this up?

What the UK budget shortfall again and how does that stack up pro-rata?

19 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

So will independence safeguard the jobs of the many thousands in the likes of finance and Oil and Gas industries or put them at risk? 

 Will Scotland not have either a finance industry or Oil and gas after independence?

 

I'd suggest those jobs are at as much risk under the Westminster government and their policies.

24 minutes ago, frankblack said:

How would being independent have worked out during the pandemic and would it have had a negative or positive impact? Your argument seems to be to remove us from the G7 would strengthen our economy? 

I've no idea Frank. It didn't happen so it's as irrelevant as asking how our economy would have fared in WWII. 

I suspect that we wouldn't have spent £37 billion on a track & trace scheme that didn't work. Nor would we have allowed the wholesale thievery of billions by Tory cronies. 

29 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Ok.  Did they publish fully audited accounts in that case?

So about this fraud you suggested. Who has been prosecuted for fraud?

 

31 minutes ago, frankblack said:

I'm comparing her crashing the economy to what the SNP would do to ours given the powers.

Again your conflating what you think might happen, in your mind, with what actually did happen. 

Truss burst the UK economy in 44 days.

I'd maybe not use her to illustrate anything. 

34 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

That captain hindsight argument doesn't help us now.  We don't have an oil fund like Norway, and bitching about it doesn't help either argument.

So let me get this right. Oil and gas propping up the UK economy for 50 years is OK but the minute the SNP forecast based on it then its pie in the sky? Right?

 

By the way Norway runs a £2.3 trillion surplus and the UK is running a £2.7 trillion deficit. 

 

But we've to believe that Westminster is the fiscally sound parliament. Aye?

42 minutes ago, frankblack said:

Writing Fact at the end of your sentence doesn't make it a fact.  The word you were looking for is opinion.

Frank Scotland and her citizens are poorer in 2024 than they were in 2014. That is a quantifiable fact. 

You might not like it but the fact is we are by no measure better together. 

 

44 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

A sizeable chunk of that will be due to Scotland's costs.  Mismanaged absolutely but we need the Tories out.

Can you tell us just how much of that £2.7 trillion is due to 'Scotland's costs' plz. 

Otherwise you're just slavering pish. 

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You able to back that up Franky boy? 

Mind the last time you brought this up?

What the UK budget shortfall again and how does that stack up pro-rata?

 Will Scotland not have either a finance industry or Oil and gas after independence?

 

I'd suggest those jobs are at as much risk under the Westminster government and their policies.

I've no idea Frank. It didn't happen so it's as irrelevant as asking how our economy would have fared in WWII. 

I suspect that we wouldn't have spent £37 billion on a track & trace scheme that didn't work. Nor would we have allowed the wholesale thievery of billions by Tory cronies. 

So about this fraud you suggested. Who has been prosecuted for fraud?

 

Again your conflating what you think might happen, in your mind, with what actually did happen. 

Truss burst the UK economy in 44 days.

I'd maybe not use her to illustrate anything. 

So let me get this right. Oil and gas propping up the UK economy for 50 years is OK but the minute the SNP forecast based on it then its pie in the sky? Right?

 

By the way Norway runs a £2.3 trillion surplus and the UK is running a £2.7 trillion deficit. 

 

But we've to believe that Westminster is the fiscally sound parliament. Aye?

Frank Scotland and her citizens are poorer in 2024 than they were in 2014. That is a quantifiable fact. 

You might not like it but the fact is we are by no measure better together. 

 

Can you tell us just how much of that £2.7 trillion is due to 'Scotland's costs' plz. 

Otherwise you're just slavering pish. 

You slaver as much pish as those you accuse.

Whether you like it or not. The onus is on those advocating a breakaway from the United Kingdom have to convince the majority that an independent Scotland will be more beneficial than the Status Quo.

The argument the UK is push under the Tories, Labour or whoever doesn't convince.

Whether those advocating independence want to believe it or not. The main independence party the SNP, are proving they are just as shit as anyone else.

If, you argue the SNP are not solely the way to independence, then the question is, who is replacing them?

[Dirty Deeds]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

That'll be the Liz Truss that wiped £400 billion off UK pension funds. 

 

 

My pension company wrote to me post the Truss debacle withdrawing a quote they'd issued just prior.

 

She's probably added 2 years to my working life alone, I'm now 54 and was hoping to retire at 57.

 

Genuinely irreparable damage to the whole working population and it barely gets a mention.

 

There's something deeply wrong with the Conservative party, the damage they've done in recent years is staggering and I've no faith that Labour have the skills to fix it.

 

Will we be worse off in an independent Scotland, I don't see how it's possible based on the UK's trajectory for the past decade. The risk is sticking with these absolute wreckers.

[The Mighty Thor]

26 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

You slaver as much pish as those you accuse.

Whether you like it or not. The onus is on those advocating a breakaway from the United Kingdom have to convince the majority that an independent Scotland will be more beneficial than the Status Quo.

The argument the UK is push under the Tories, Labour or whoever doesn't convince.

Whether those advocating independence want to believe it or not. The main independence party the SNP, are proving they are just as shit as anyone else.

If, you argue the SNP are not solely the way to independence, then the question is, who is replacing them?

Thats why the SNP produced a white paper John. That's pretty much all they can do. They can't prove it will be better as much as you can't prove it'll be worse. 

 

If the current state of the UK under the Westminster parties doesn't convince you then probably nothing will. That's fair enough. 

[The Mighty Thor]

28 minutes ago, Dirty Deeds said:

My pension company wrote to me post the Truss debacle withdrawing a quote they'd issued just prior.

 

She's probably added 2 years to my working life alone, I'm now 54 and was hoping to retire at 57.

 

Genuinely irreparable damage to the whole working population and it barely gets a mention.

 

There's something deeply wrong with the Conservative party, the damage they've done in recent years is staggering and I've no faith that Labour have the skills to fix it.

 

Will we be worse off in an independent Scotland, I don't see how it's possible based on the UK's trajectory for the past decade. The risk is sticking with these absolute wreckers.

No no they're suddenly going to turn around the downward trajectory of the UK and it'll be sunshine and lollipops all the way.

 

One or two terms of Labour following the Tory economic mantra will probably finish the UK off.

[John Findlay]

26 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Thats why the SNP produced a white paper John. That's pretty much all they can do. They can't prove it will be better as much as you can't prove it'll be worse. 

 

If the current state of the UK under the Westminster parties doesn't convince you then probably nothing will. That's fair enough. 

The old government white papers.

As much use as a chocolate fireguard.

No matter which government publishes them.

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

The old government white papers.

As much use as a chocolate fireguard.

No matter which government publishes them.

It's all they can do John. 

The SNP has published them and they are out there to be pulled apart.

 

I'd love to see the UK gov produce such documents, just so we can compare and contrast.

 

Mind you white papers aren't required when you've removed freedom of movement, reduced GDP by over 4% and cost the country more than £100 billion a year and that's just on one shit decision. 

[Gundermann]

4 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Liz Truss is the Tory equivalent of our first minister.  Neither fit for purpose.

 

The SNP racked up a £1.5bn budget shortfall at Holyrood despite not having anything like the same financial responsibilities.

 

 

Really? I thought that under the terms of devolution, we have to balance the books? Hence why it's such a bugger mitigating all the shoight legislation from Westminster.

[frankblack]

10 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Really? I thought that under the terms of devolution, we have to balance the books? Hence why it's such a bugger mitigating all the shoight legislation from Westminster.

 

That's just it.  Should have considered that when throwing cash around e.g. settling too quickly with unions, handing out free bus passes to youngsters who don't need them.  Never mind shitshows like the Ferries and green policies such as Spaces For People that they funded.

[Gundermann]

10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

That's just it.  Should have considered that when throwing cash around e.g. settling too quickly with unions, handing out free bus passes to youngsters who don't need them.  Never mind shitshows like the Ferries and green policies such as Spaces For People that they funded.

 

Heh!

 

You've nailed it. All what's wrong in the world - trade unions, youngsters on buses and ferry hold-ups.

 

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

Just now, Gundermann said:

 

Heh!

 

You've nailed it. All what's wrong in the world - trade unions, youngsters on buses and ferry hold-ups.

 

 

 

🤣

[frankblack]

13 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Heh!

 

You've nailed it. All what's wrong in the world - trade unions, youngsters on buses and ferry hold-ups.

 

 

 

 

I never said it was trade unions that were the issue - it was the irresponsible spending of the Nats who clearly failed in economics.  They created their own budget shortfall by being incompetent.

 

That's one expensive Ferry hold up the SNP are entirely responsible for by rigging the procurement process. 

 

There were terms in the invitation to tender which the Glasgow yard did not meet yet somehow didn't get thrown out and beat competitors who did.

 

I'm just surprised those companies are not taking legal action, but perhaps that may still come.

Edited March 24 by frankblack

[Gundermann]

16 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I never said it was trade unions that were the issue - it was the irresponsible spending of the Nats who clearly failed in economics.  They created their own budget shortfall by being incompetent.

 

That's one expensive Ferry hold up the SNP are entirely responsible for by rigging the procurement process. 

 

There were terms in the invitation to tender which the Glasgow yard did not meet yet somehow didn't get thrown out and beat competitors who did.

 

I'm just surprised those companies are not taking legal action, but perhaps that may still come.

 

I love your priorities. Btw, I'm not sure ferry contracts are the ideal moral highground for an argument against Scottish self-government...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/09/government-cancels-brexit-ferry-contract-with-no-ship-firm

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

I love your priorities. Btw, I'm not sure ferry contracts are the ideal moral highground for an argument against Scottish self-government...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/09/government-cancels-brexit-ferry-contract-with-no-ship-firm

 

More whatabootery.  

 

I'm not going to defend the tories record.  This is about the SNP.

[Malinga the Swinga]

23 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

More whatabootery.  

 

I'm not going to defend the tories record.  This is about the SNP.

Wasting your time. Every thread about SNP ends up with nationalists saying 'but whatabout the Tories'. After years in government, it's all they have.

[JudyJudyJudy]

49 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Wasting your time. Every thread about SNP ends up with nationalists saying 'but whatabout the Tories'. After years in government, it's all they have.

Thsts all they have . I’d rather having a current shite status quo then have a SNP led Indy Scotland . Honestly horrifies me to think how bad it would be . As John said it’s up to the separatists to argue their case , unionists do no need to argue any case 

[Roxy Hearts]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Thsts all they have . I’d rather having a current shite status quo then have a SNP led Indy Scotland . Honestly horrifies me to think how bad it would be . As John said it’s up to the separatists to argue their case , unionists do no need to argue any case 

We'd have Scottish elections to choose our governments. 

[Gundermann]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

More whatabootery.  

 

I'm not going to defend the tories record.  This is about the SNP.

 

No, it's not. It's a thread about independence and therefore the Union too. Ferry boats and youngsters on buses has got effall to do with it.

 

Start an SNP thread if you're so bothered.

[AyrJambo]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Thsts all they have . I’d rather having a current shite status quo then have a SNP led Indy Scotland . Honestly horrifies me to think how bad it would be . As John said it’s up to the separatists to argue their case , unionists do no need to argue any case 

 

Independence isn't the SNP

If anything the SNP would be surplus to requirements after independence since their alleged raison d'etre (independence) would no longer require a party of independence

So elections would be fought between the other existing parties and possibly new ones but they would all be Scottish parties based and funded in Scotland

 

And the idea that unionists do not need to argue a case for the union is one of convenience because they don't have one

[AyrJambo]

Spot on. The SNP have nothing to do with independence. 

 

That is correct!

They have settled for devolution and Westminster short money and pensions

Edited March 24 by AyrJambo

[AyrJambo]

12 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Spot on. The SNP have nothing to do with independence. 

 

That is correct!

They have settled for devolution and Westminster short money and pensions

[JudyJudyJudy]

21 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 

Independence isn't the SNP

If anything the SNP would be surplus to requirements after independence since their alleged raison d'etre (independence) would no longer require a party of independence

So elections would be fought between the other existing parties and possibly new ones but they would all be Scottish parties based and funded in Scotland

 

And the idea that unionists do not need to argue a case for the union is one of convenience because they don't have one

Wrong . All that mob , including the creepy greens will be desperate to have their place in history as the first Govt of an Indy Scotland . The gravy train continuing with the safety net of Westminster knocking them on the nut when needed . Just glad it’s never going to happen 

[The Mighty Thor]

29 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 

And the idea that unionists do not need to argue a case for the union is one of convenience because they don't have one

Indeed. 

 

In the 10 years since the independence referendum you'd be incredibly hard pushed to find even one positive thing about the union. 

 

It's been calamity after calamity.

[manaliveits105]

37 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Wrong . All that mob , including the creepy greens will be desperate to have their place in history as the first Govt of an Indy Scotland . The gravy train continuing with the safety net of Westminster knocking them on the nut when needed . Just glad it’s never going to happen 

Correct James they missed an open goal and the game is now over

 

 

[AyrJambo]

39 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Wrong . All that mob , including the creepy greens will be desperate to have their place in history as the first Govt of an Indy Scotland . The gravy train continuing with the safety net of Westminster knocking them on the nut when needed . Just glad it’s never going to happen 

 

I'm sure they'll try but it will be up to the Scottish electorate whether they succeed!

Not sure what you second point is - Westminster is the gravy train for the SNP but would not be after independence

[the posh bit]

45 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Wrong . All that mob , including the creepy greens will be desperate to have their place in history as the first Govt of an Indy Scotland . The gravy train continuing with the safety net of Westminster knocking them on the nut when needed . Just glad it’s never going to happen 

 

Voted YES in 2014. ⬆️

[AyrJambo]

7 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Correct James they missed an open goal and the game is now over

 

 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

48 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Wrong . All that mob , including the creepy greens will be desperate to have their place in history as the first Govt of an Indy Scotland . The gravy train continuing with the safety net of Westminster knocking them on the nut when needed . Just glad it’s never going to happen 

I meant they want the gravy train to continue with NO safety net of Westminster if we became Indy so they could run ragged 

[Cranston]

43 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Indeed. 

 

In the 10 years since the independence referendum you'd be incredibly hard pushed to find even one positive thing about the union. 

 

It's been calamity after calamity.

Imagine President Salmond had been let loose upon the Scottish women of our country? Dearie me.

[Cranston]

9 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I meant they want the gravy train to continue with NO safety net of Westminster if we became Indy so they could run ragged 

👍

 

Exactly. They pretend all sorts of scenarios. Sitting in their Leith hash filled shitholes kidding each other on that indy eire will be manna from heaven for layabouts, with ever increasing benefits coming their drug induced way. 

[AyrJambo]

17 minutes ago, Cranston said:

Exactly. They pretend all sorts of scenarios. Sitting in their Leith hash filled shitholes kidding each other on that indy eire will be manna from heaven for layabouts, with ever increasing benefits coming their drug induced way. 

I think Ireland is already independent

Are you feeling OK?

Edited March 24 by AyrJambo

[Morgan]

5 minutes ago, Cranston said:

👍

 

Exactly. They pretend all sorts of scenarios. Sitting in their Leith hash filled shitholes kidding each other on that indy eire will be manna from heaven for layabouts, with ever increasing benefits coming their drug induced way. 

[Morgan]

18 minutes ago, Cranston said:

Imagine President Salmond had been let loose upon the Scottish women of our country? Dearie me.

Are you fine tonight?

[Japan Jambo]

19 minutes ago, Cranston said:

Imagine President Salmond had been let loose upon the Scottish women of our country? Dearie me.

 

Amazing how the revolution devours it's own children. Once in a generation politician and yet the separatists are falling over themselves to disown him.

[John Findlay]

12 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Amazing how the revolution devours it's own children. Once in a generation politician and yet the separatists are falling over themselves to disown him.

Their biggest mistake.

[il Duce McTarkin]

8 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You able to back that up Franky boy? 

Mind the last time you brought this up?

What the UK budget shortfall again and how does that stack up pro-rata?

 Will Scotland not have either a finance industry or Oil and gas after independence?

 

I'd suggest those jobs are at as much risk under the Westminster government and their policies.

I've no idea Frank. It didn't happen so it's as irrelevant as asking how our economy would have fared in WWII. 

I suspect that we wouldn't have spent £37 billion on a track & trace scheme that didn't work. Nor would we have allowed the wholesale thievery of billions by Tory cronies. 

So about this fraud you suggested. Who has been prosecuted for fraud?

 

Again your conflating what you think might happen, in your mind, with what actually did happen. 

Truss burst the UK economy in 44 days.

I'd maybe not use her to illustrate anything. 

So let me get this right. Oil and gas propping up the UK economy for 50 years is OK but the minute the SNP forecast based on it then its pie in the sky? Right?

 

By the way Norway runs a £2.3 trillion surplus and the UK is running a £2.7 trillion deficit. 

 

But we've to believe that Westminster is the fiscally sound parliament. Aye?

Frank Scotland and her citizens are poorer in 2024 than they were in 2014. That is a quantifiable fact. 

You might not like it but the fact is we are by no measure better together. 

 

Can you tell us just how much of that £2.7 trillion is due to 'Scotland's costs' plz. 

Otherwise you're just slavering pish. 

 

I know you'd rather be rag-dolling the trouble-and-strife, Thor, but rag-dolling wee frank is a better spectacle for the neutral.

[Cranston]

43 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Are you fine tonight?

Good mate. I appreciate me more than anyone should be careful, but, I stick to my melon man. Cheers Morgan, yer a good un old son. 👍

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

Correct James they missed an open goal and the game is now over

 

 

Yep 

[Gundermann]

8 hours ago, Cranston said:

👍

 

Exactly. They pretend all sorts of scenarios. Sitting in their Leith hash filled shitholes kidding each other on that indy eire will be manna from heaven for layabouts, with ever increasing benefits coming their drug induced way. 

 

Gorgie Sighthill ward votes SNP and Green BTW.

[jack D and coke]

13 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

I never said it was trade unions that were the issue - it was the irresponsible spending of the Nats who clearly failed in economics.  They created their own budget shortfall by being incompetent.

 

That's one expensive Ferry hold up the SNP are entirely responsible for by rigging the procurement process. 

 

There were terms in the invitation to tender which the Glasgow yard did not meet yet somehow didn't get thrown out and beat competitors who did.

 

I'm just surprised those companies are not taking legal action, but perhaps that may still come.

Who were the competitors btw? Foreign yards? 

[Morgan]

8 hours ago, Cranston said:

Good mate. I appreciate me more than anyone should be careful, but, I stick to my melon man. Cheers Morgan, yer a good un old son. 👍

 

 

Great stuff.

 

Keep that melon sticky.

 

👌

[frankblack]

9 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I meant they want the gravy train to continue with NO safety net of Westminster if we became Indy so they could run ragged 

 

That was my earlier point yesterday.  By the time they have realised how much they have ****ed the economy, the damage will be long lasting.