Hillsborough

[bil]

Let's face it, the police didn't want anybody to die that day - and neither did anybody else including ManU fans. I don't know if it's true or not but from what I heard there was previous of Liverpool fans getting in for nowt at various grounds by pressing up to the turnstiles and gates until the police panicked and let them in - but that doesn't mean it was their fault, plenty of people have sneaked in to games for free over the years.

[paulah]

I cant believe what i'v been reading on this,its disgusting

The police were at fault end of story,for god's sake there were kids there that lost their lifes,and remember Shankleys saying that football is more important was so wrong

[Tazio]

The police were at fault end of story,for god's sake there were kids there that lost their lifes,and remember Shankleys saying that football is more important was so wrong

 

Yea the police cocked up. However people were pushing in. That is an undeniable,

[paulah]

I know people were pushing in,but i think if they'd known that people down the front were being squashed to death i do think they would have stopped.The police opened the gates and let the fans in,they are to blame end off,but they'l never admit it and im sure the video evidence that would have incriminated them went missing

[The Old Tolbooth]

I am considering closing this thread.Certain posters are trolling and it will continue in a downward spiral. Please stop now.

 

I am sure this is not what the OP was looking for.

 

You could do a lot worse than to shut a thread like this and I've only read the first 12 posts.

 

There was a thread similar to this one last year which ended up in a lot of ill feeling between certain posters who seemingly think they know everything that went on that day, and the abuse dished out on that thread was terrible.

 

It's a shame though, because the OP started this thread with the best of intentions.

[paulah]

You could do a lot worse than to shut a thread like this and I've only read the first 12 posts.

 

There was a thread similar to this one last year which ended up in a lot of ill feeling between certain posters who seemingly think they know everything that went on that day, and the abuse dished out on that thread was terrible.

 

It's a shame though, because the OP started this thread with the best of intentions.

Yea John your right i wish they would close this down as it puts the Hearts fans in a bad light,sad friggin day when a guy wants to offer his condolonces and this happens

[Reiver]

Why cant we just pay our respects without the usual comments about who was at fault, at the end of the day, 96 people lost their lives.

Because that's not the topic. The topic is about "justice for the 96" which, being a controversial subject, is likely to provoke differing opinions.

[The Vulture]

The year before, with the same teams playing at that venue and with the same ticket allocations everything was fine. Well why didn't the police ensure that everything was repeated ? Like use barriers so fans would have to queue outside the ground leading upto the turnstiles.

 

To blame fans without tickets is a joke, yes there probably were fans without tickets, it was an all ticket cup semi final. Football fans will go to grounds without tickets in the hope of getting one. Like the police trying to blame it on drunk fans, another red herring.

 

I remember the cup semi at Parkhead when we lost 2-1 to Rangers when Preston scored. We were all squashed into a penned area and the area to the LHS was totally empty with only a few Jambos in it (e.g. 10 or 20). When leaving the ground I remember everyone being forced down one stairwell and that was quite scary. An accident could have happened that day but luckily nobody tripped or fell on the stairs.

[Horse]

Yea John your right i wish they would close this down as it puts the Hearts fans in a bad light,sad friggin day when a guy wants to offer his condolonces and this happens

 

IMHO with the OP stating justice for the 96...that was leaving this thread open to the comments made.

 

You can't state an opinion and not expect people who maybe have a different opinion not to post.

[The Real Maroonblood]

IMHO with the OP stating justice for the 96...that was leaving this thread open to the comments made.

 

You can't state an opinion and not expect people who maybe have a different opinion not to post.

 

Have you not learned by now to stop reading the Sun.

[Horse]

Have you not learned by now to stop reading the Sun.

 

Think my post went over your head.

 

Just sticking up for the right to debate....never said anyone was right or wrong.

[ecjambo]

Justice for the 96. RIP

[Denny Crane]

Yea the police cocked up. However people were pushing in. That is an undeniable,

 

The police didn't put anyone infront of the entrances to pens 3 & 4 of the Leppings end to direct fans to either of the wing pens which were both half full. The police's cctv point also had cameras on pens 3 & 4 yet the officer in charge of this neglected to radio to his colleagues on the ground that pens 3 & 4 were full and that incoming fans should be directed to the wing pens where there was ample space. Taylor criticised the police for this neglect.

The build up of fans outside was largely establish to be a knock-on effect by the massive roadworks that were in place on the east-bound section of the M62. The police had the powers to request to the referee a delayed kick-off in order to give those outside the ground ample time to get in. They didn't but instead panicked and opened the gate with no provision in place to direct fans to where there was space for them to stand. Many fans had tickets which had not been checked off by a turnstile operator because of this decision.

[Denny Crane]

I know people were pushing in,but i think if they'd known that people down the front were being squashed to death i do think they would have stopped.The police opened the gates and let the fans in,they are to blame end off,but they'l never admit it and im sure the video evidence that would have incriminated them went missing

 

 

Two cctv tapes in South Yorkshire Police's care went "missing". Make of that what you will.

 

As for your earlier post on Shankly's quote. Try and find the footage of him saying it - you can tell from its context that he is clearly joking. He was asked about the loud atmosphere that the kop produced and made that life and death quote with tongue firmly in cheek.

[Denny Crane]

The year before, with the same teams playing at that venue and with the same ticket allocations everything was fine. Well why didn't the police ensure that everything was repeated ? Like use barriers so fans would have to queue outside the ground leading upto the turnstiles.

 

This was debated on Brian Reade's show (the Mirror journo) on Liverpool's Citytalk station last Saturday.

There were crush problems in the 1988 semi although the officer in charge was on top of the situation and as a result no one died. Unhappy with the way his superiors had organised the whole affair, he complained and received the sack for his trouble. A man named Duckenfield replaced him. The rank and order did not like the decision to sack their old superior and had already lost confidence in Duckenfield who they saw as someone who was promoted way above his actual ability. This was illustrated by the appalling manner of his handling of the semi-final in 1989 which led to 96 not making it home. His subsequent lies (if you check the statements offered to Taylor, Duckenfield is clearly lying) have shown him to be a man not fit to even walk the beat let alone be in charge of security and safety at a major sporting event.

[Gorgie Ultra]

RIP the people who died, wether or not Liverpool fans charged in and crushed them or the police were at fault THE VICTIMS certainly were not.

 

Justice for the fans should mean a few police and Liverpool fans should be charged with manslaughter, the whole idea it was only one parties fault is a joke, both those outside pushing to get in and those policing should be held accountable, but that will never bring back the innocent ones who paid with their lives.

[bistokid]

John Alfred Anderson (62)

Thomas Howard (39)

Colin Mark Ashcroft (19)

Thomas Anthony Howard (14)

James Gary Aspinall (18)

Eric George Hughes (42)

Kester Roger Marcus Ball (16)

Alan Johnston (29)

Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron (67)

Christine Anne Jones (27)

Simon Bell (17)

Gary Philip Jones (18)

Barry Sidney Bennett (26)

Richard Jones (25)

David John Benson (22)

Nicholas Peter Joynes (27)

David William Birtle (22)

Anthony Peter Kelly (29)

Tony Bland (22)

Michael David Kelly (38)

Paul David Brady (21)

Carl David Lewis (18)

Andrew Mark Brookes (26)

David William Mather (19)

Carl Brown (18)

Brian Christopher Mathews (38)

David Steven Brown (25)

Francis Joseph McAllister (27)

Henry Thomas Burke (47)

John McBrien (18)

Peter Andrew Burkett (24)

Marion Hazel McCabe (21)

Paul William Carlile (19)

Joseph Daniel McCarthy (21)

Raymond Thomas Chapman (50)

Peter McDonnell (21)

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Alan McGlone (28)

Joseph Clark (29)

Keith McGrath (17)

Paul Clark (18)

Paul Brian Murray (14)

Gary Collins (22)

Lee Nicol (14)

Stephen Paul Copoc (20)

Stephen Francis O'Neill (17)

Tracey Elizabeth Cox (23)

Jonathon Owens (18)

James Philip Delaney (19)

William Roy Pemberton (23)

Christopher Barry Devonside (18)

Carl William Rimmer (21)

Christopher Edwards (29)

David George Rimmer (38)

Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons (34)

Graham John Roberts (24)

Thomas Steven Fox (21)

Steven Joseph Robinson (17)

Jon-Paul Gilhooley (10)

Henry Charles Rogers (17)

Barry Glover (27)

Colin Andrew Hugh William Sefton (23)

Ian Thomas Glover (20)

Inger Shah (38)

Derrick George Godwin (24)

Paula Ann Smith (26)

Roy Harry Hamilton (34)

Adam Edward Spearritt (14)

Philip Hammond (14)

Philip John Steele (15)

Eric Hankin (33)

David Leonard Thomas (23)

Gary Harrison (27)

Patrik John Thompson (35)

Stephen Francis Harrison (31)

Peter Reuben Thompson (30)

Peter Andrew Harrison (15)

Stuart Paul William Thompson (17)

David Hawley (39)

Peter Francis Tootle (21)

James Robert Hennessy (29)

Christopher James Traynor (26)

Paul Anthony Hewitson (26)

Martin Kevin Traynor (16)

Carl Darren Hewitt (17)

Kevin Tyrrell (15)

Nicholas Michael Hewitt (16)

Colin Wafer (19)

Sarah Louise Hicks (19)

Ian David Whelan (19)

Victoria Jane Hicks (15)

Martin Kenneth Wild (29)

Gordon Rodney Horn (20)

Kevin Daniel Williams (15)

Arthur Horrocks (41)

Graham John Wright (17)

[K1874M]

Also add this one:-

 

http://www.hfdinfo.com/play.php

 

and the below link has access to two respective pdf files of the Taylor report:-

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Report

 

For those of you espousing the drunken fans line, the findings by Lord Chief Justice Taylor may somewhat disappoint you.

 

This could've happened to any club - don't let any anti-Liverpudlian prejudices that you may have get in the way of fact (again, I refer you to Taylor). Remember Hearts' cup semi v Rangers in April 1993? Remember the balls up Strathclyde Police made of it? Namely us being allocated one end of Celtic's then-antiqudated stadium. Said end was divided into two halves. I, like many others got in bang on kick-off. Various entrances were blocked with the police not having a clue what to do about it. Eventually I get in to find that while the half I'm in is packed with Jambos (and a bit of a squeeze to boot), the other half only has a smatterring of fans and the half-time pipe-band!

Preston gives us the lead and I and many others are swept forward. Some closer to the front are on the pitch. Luckily, Celtic had no perimeter fencing.

The fanzine 'No Idle talk' did an excellent piece on that day in the issue that was released after it - the comparisons they made with Hillsborough were not that far off the mark.

 

The Taylor report was a joke. imo

[Prince Buaben]

Or even that boy's cousin - Steven Gerrard.

 

Was reading down the thread going to post that

 

 

Gerrard talks about it in his book

[PTBCAL]

John Alfred Anderson (62)

Thomas Howard (39)

Colin Mark Ashcroft (19)

Thomas Anthony Howard (14)

James Gary Aspinall (18)

Eric George Hughes (42)

Kester Roger Marcus Ball (16)

Alan Johnston (29)

Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron (67)

Christine Anne Jones (27)

Simon Bell (17)

Gary Philip Jones (18)

Barry Sidney Bennett (26)

Richard Jones (25)

David John Benson (22)

Nicholas Peter Joynes (27)

David William Birtle (22)

Anthony Peter Kelly (29)

Tony Bland (22)

Michael David Kelly (38)

Paul David Brady (21)

Carl David Lewis (18)

Andrew Mark Brookes (26)

David William Mather (19)

Carl Brown (18)

Brian Christopher Mathews (38)

David Steven Brown (25)

Francis Joseph McAllister (27)

Henry Thomas Burke (47)

John McBrien (18)

Peter Andrew Burkett (24)

Marion Hazel McCabe (21)

Paul William Carlile (19)

Joseph Daniel McCarthy (21)

Raymond Thomas Chapman (50)

Peter McDonnell (21)

Gary Christopher Church (19)

Alan McGlone (28)

Joseph Clark (29)

Keith McGrath (17)

Paul Clark (18)

Paul Brian Murray (14)

Gary Collins (22)

Lee Nicol (14)

Stephen Paul Copoc (20)

Stephen Francis O'Neill (17)

Tracey Elizabeth Cox (23)

Jonathon Owens (18)

James Philip Delaney (19)

William Roy Pemberton (23)

Christopher Barry Devonside (18)

Carl William Rimmer (21)

Christopher Edwards (29)

David George Rimmer (38)

Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons (34)

Graham John Roberts (24)

Thomas Steven Fox (21)

Steven Joseph Robinson (17)

Jon-Paul Gilhooley (10)

Henry Charles Rogers (17)

Barry Glover (27)

Colin Andrew Hugh William Sefton (23)

Ian Thomas Glover (20)

Inger Shah (38)

Derrick George Godwin (24)

Paula Ann Smith (26)

Roy Harry Hamilton (34)

Adam Edward Spearritt (14)

Philip Hammond (14)

Philip John Steele (15)

Eric Hankin (33)

David Leonard Thomas (23)

Gary Harrison (27)

Patrik John Thompson (35)

Stephen Francis Harrison (31)

Peter Reuben Thompson (30)

Peter Andrew Harrison (15)

Stuart Paul William Thompson (17)

David Hawley (39)

Peter Francis Tootle (21)

James Robert Hennessy (29)

Christopher James Traynor (26)

Paul Anthony Hewitson (26)

Martin Kevin Traynor (16)

Carl Darren Hewitt (17)

Kevin Tyrrell (15)

Nicholas Michael Hewitt (16)

Colin Wafer (19)

Sarah Louise Hicks (19)

Ian David Whelan (19)

Victoria Jane Hicks (15)

Martin Kenneth Wild (29)

Gordon Rodney Horn (20)

Kevin Daniel Williams (15)

Arthur Horrocks (41)

Graham John Wright (17)

 

One lad was 10 y.o.

 

Ten year old and watching his beloved football team and he never came home. Imagine what that would do to a family.

 

96 RIP

[Jarhead]

Two cctv tapes in South Yorkshire Police's care went "missing". Make of that what you will.

 

As for your earlier post on Shankly's quote. Try and find the footage of him saying it - you can tell from its context that he is clearly joking. He was asked about the loud atmosphere that the kop produced and made that life and death quote with tongue firmly in cheek.

 

Whenever there is a footballing tradgedy I've often heard Shankly being mocked over his most famous quote.

I too don't think he meant it in a literal sense. I've always took it as a metopher of why some teams are more successful than others.

[Tams bird]

Regardless of the bigger debate 96 people died, a terrible tragedy.

 

Remember being at Dens and getting beat 2-1 I think, paid no attention to what was unfolding until seeing the news that night.

 

 

 

I remember the people on the bus I was on were silent all the way home. Same as when it was the Bradford fire. Sure we were at Paisley that day..

[kennygarland1]

Whenever there is a footballing tradgedy I've often heard Shankly being mocked over his most famous quote.

I too don't think he meant it in a literal sense. I've always took it as a metopher of why some teams are more successful than others.

Of course he did'nt mean it literally and anyone thinking he did should give themselves a good shake.

 

I would just like to add what happened that day was a terrible tragedy,to ask for manslaughter charges to be brought against anyone is harsh in my opinion. There was more than one party at fault that day and i am sure the people involved are still living with the guilt of their involvement to this day.

 

I will never forget seeing those images of the lifeless bodies crushed in the pens and lying all over the pitch and i was'nt involved,imagine how the people feel who were there.

[merseyjambo]

The police didn't put anyone infront of the entrances to pens 3 & 4 of the Leppings end to direct fans to either of the wing pens which were both half full. The police's cctv point also had cameras on pens 3 & 4 yet the officer in charge of this neglected to radio to his colleagues on the ground that pens 3 & 4 were full and that incoming fans should be directed to the wing pens where there was ample space. Taylor criticised the police for this neglect.

The build up of fans outside was largely establish to be a knock-on effect by the massive roadworks that were in place on the east-bound section of the M62. The police had the powers to request to the referee a delayed kick-off in order to give those outside the ground ample time to get in. They didn't but instead panicked and opened the gate with no provision in place to direct fans to where there was space for them to stand. Many fans had tickets which had not been checked off by a turnstile operator because of this decision.

 

 

What happened was an absolute tradgedy, the same as the Ibrox Disaster, the fire at Bradford and all other disasters which have occurred at football grounds.

 

However, have you ever policed a major event. 20 years later police officers have earpieces, lightweight radios and even still when policing a football match when you are among a crowd its difficult to hear instructions.

 

In those days, radios were the size of bricks that tended to be carried round waist belts or in pockets with no earpieces and in a 'tunnel' how easy do you think it would be for an officer to hear any form of instructions?

 

I gon't know how old you are but I remember when The Ugly Sisters and the Hobos came to Tynecastle in the 80s. The middle area of the terracing was cordened off but as soon as it was open there was a mad rush to get there from the fans inside the ground.

 

I remember going to a cup tie against Motherwell in the late 80s or early 90s where we had half the Gorgie Road terracing. The queue to get in at McLeod Street & the brewery was huge so we went to the Gorgie Road end. It was getting close to kick off, we paid to go in but before we could decide to go anywhere, the crowd at the back of us pushed forward. Even if there had been stewards there, they have no control and are not able to exercise any authority. People are keen to get into the ground, especially at that time. No amound of police or stewarding presance would be able to stop a surge forward to direct them into the outer pens.

 

Mistakes were made on all sides that day, the police, the FA on choice of venue, the stewarding however there is no denying ticketless fans were also attempting to get into the ground also so there must also be a portion of blame attributed there.

 

Some of the coverage from the media afterwards was shocking though. They also did themselves no favours that day

[Denny Crane]

The Taylor report was a joke. imo

 

Could you expand in full as to why you think it is a joke?

[Denny Crane]

there is no denying ticketless fans were also attempting to get into the ground also so there must also be a portion of blame attributed there.

 

 

Again,Taylor's findings would disagree with you here. After his investigation examined the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive Analysis and eye witness accounts, Taylor came to the conclusion that there was not an excessively large number of ticketless fans and could only be considered as a minor factor.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

Come on people, this was obviously a tragedy lets not have another grief competition on KB.

 

Make pertinent points without trying to be the most upset or the most controversial.

[coppercrutch]

Could you expand in full as to why you think it is a joke?

 

Terracing = Unsafe = Joke

 

Anyway I think there is only one person who can be described as a 'troll' on this thread. That is the OP. That is fairly obvious. ( Trust me I should know )

[stevie]

Not an easy subject talk about,all thoughts go to the families who lost loved ones on that tragic day.my opinion(for what its worth)is that a large percentage of blame must lie with the police,however the fans who arrived without tickets with the purpose of getting into the ground regardless must also take some blame,some of them must have trouble sleeping at night.

[Adi Dassler]

Terracing = Unsafe = Joke

 

Anyway I think there is only one person who can be described as a 'troll' on this thread. That is the OP. That is fairly obvious. ( Trust me I should know )

 

Explain.

[coppercrutch]

Explain.

 

Please..

 

You posted a thread that was clearly going to raise a few heated discussions (Because this subject has been done to death many times on this forum, you must know this).

 

You then replied once in almost 24 hours and let everyone else fight it out with more and more aggressive arguments.

 

Then when someone states that you are 'trolling' you reply with a denial within a matter of minutes.....

 

I have possibly done similar myself one a couple of occasions. I can see the signs. That is why I decided to do a bit of 'fishing'. You 'bit' exactly as expected....

 

Of course if not and you have just been away and this is all a co-incidence then I apologise. But I reckon not...

[A Boy Named Crow]

I fail to see the problem here. We all agree what happened was awful.

 

The stupid, needless beginnings of the tragedy make it all the worse, IMO.

 

The problem is simple Michael, you are having the cheek to state a simple fact about an event, a fact that many people like to gloss over, but one that should never be forgotten. People complain about football being over sanitised these days but the sad truth is that it had to be. Probably not worth debating it here though.

[Adi Dassler]

Please..

 

You posted a thread that was clearly going to raise a few heated discussions (Because this subject has been done to death many times on this forum, you must know this).

 

You then replied once in almost 24 hours and let everyone else fight it out with more and more aggressive arguments.

 

Then when someone states that you are 'trolling' you reply with a denial within a matter of minutes.....

 

I have possibly done similar myself one a couple of occasions. I can see the signs. That is why I decided to do a bit of 'fishing'. You 'bit' exactly as expected....

 

Of course if not and you have just been away and this is all a co-incidence then I apologise. But I reckon not...

 

To be honest i didn't really think about it but when i cast my mind back i do recall a similar thing happening before. Rest assured, i won't make the same mistake on the same day next year. I'll keep my thoughts to myself on a date that will forever be etched in my memory.

 

The reason i have not been on is that some of us work for a living, i'm sure you do too, but sadly i have to be a bit more productive in my job rather than sitting on KB all day.

 

Everyone has their own thoughts on what happened at Hillsborough. The original reply, which maybe you didn't see, questioning wether Scousers robbed the dead was what saddened me but i suppose that is the downside of the internet. Any fool who has a computer is afforded an opinion.

 

Anyway, i'm off to watch the Celtic v Rangers game so i'll not be on for a bit. I hope that's alright.

 

[paulah]

Two cctv tapes in South Yorkshire Police's care went "missing". Make of that what you will.

 

As for your earlier post on Shankly's quote. Try and find the footage of him saying it - you can tell from its context that he is clearly joking. He was asked about the loud atmosphere that the kop produced and made that life and death quote with tongue firmly in cheek.

I know wat Shankley said that tongue in cheek,Mat,i was just saying that wat was said was'nt right,i loved Shanks and his daft quotes ,always make me laugh

[carnockjambo]

As someone who was actually at the game i feel i must add my thoughts. I have travelled round Europe,Scotland and england visiting many grounds following Hearts since 1981. I attented the match that fateful day and had a ticket for the stand opposite the main stand. I travelled with a Pool fan and as soon as we arrived at the entrance (which was for the stand i had my tickect for and the Leppings lane end) he knew something was not right. We stood back as there was a surge and a policehorse was briefly lifted off its hoofs. Suddenly the surge disappeared and everything went quiet as fans disappeared into the entrance area. My friend who had attented the 1988 SF said that the policing was totally different, no barriers, less police presence etc. we entered quite easily once the surge was gone and were about to take our seats as Beardsey hit the bar and the rest is history that has been revisited and revisited and revisited. I have 1 outstanding memory amongst many that day. As a body was strechered away on an advetisement board, the body covered by a coat an arm fell out , a dead persons arm, a football fans arm.

[coppercrutch]

To be honest i didn't really think about it but when i cast my mind back i do recall a similar thing happening before. Rest assured, i won't make the same mistake on the same day next year. I'll keep my thoughts to myself on a date that will forever be etched in my memory.

 

The reason i have not been on is that some of us work for a living, i'm sure you do too, but sadly i have to be a bit more productive in my job rather than sitting on KB all day.

 

Everyone has their own thoughts on what happened at Hillsborough. The original reply, which maybe you didn't see, questioning wether Scousers robbed the dead was what saddened me but i suppose that is the downside of the internet. Any fool who has a computer is afforded an opinion.

 

Anyway, i'm off to watch the Celtic v Rangers game so i'll not be on for a bit. I hope that's alright.

 

 

Nah I never saw that reply. Anyway I just thought your thread was a little 'trollish'. If not then no big deal, as I said apologies if all above board. The subject raises interesting points all the same.

 

Anyway why are you off to watch that filth ? Waste of a nice Wednesday night if you ask me.

[Denny Crane]

the fans who arrived without tickets with the purpose of getting into the ground regardless must also take some blame,some of them must have trouble sleeping at night.

 

Stevie, I refer you to post 77 on this thread.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Again,Taylor's findings would disagree with you here. After his investigation examined the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive Analysis and eye witness accounts, Taylor came to the conclusion that there was not an excessively large number of ticketless fans and could only be considered as a minor factor.

 

Correct. I took the time a while back to read the interim report from cover to cover, and its finding are unequivocal in pointing the finger of blame at a) the police and the design and lack of adequate signposting at Hillsborough Stadium. If the Taylor report is definitive (which I think it is) then the talk about ticketless fans is a virtual myth. Bear in mind that while the central pens of Leppings Lane lower were packed, the outer pens were almost empty.

[lambojambo]

I have a feeling that the unfounded accusations made against LFC fans from some posters on here, could be down to the terrible scenes we saw in the Heysel stadium.

[SUTOL]

there is no denying ticketless fans were also attempting to get into the ground also so there must also be a portion of blame attributed there.

 

Taylor's findings would disagree with you here. After his investigation examined the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive Analysis and eye witness accounts, Taylor came to the conclusion that there was not an excessively large number of ticketless fans and could only be considered as a minor factor.

 

 

Taylor agreed that there were ticketless fans trying to gain access, and they were a factor.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Taylor agreed that there were ticketless fans trying to gain access, and they were a factor.

 

What he actually said was that their number was negligible and it was not a root cause of the disaster.

 

I quote from the Taylor report:

 

"the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large"

 

"the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up"

 

He did comment that drunk fans had aggravated the problem, but not in a way that could have avoided the disaster as a whole.

[Denny Crane]

Taylor agreed that there were ticketless fans trying to gain access, and they were a factor.

 

Albeit a minor one and not one deemed significant enough to be a major cause of what happened. Re-read his findings.

[jamtart22]

I was astonished to hear of so many fans without tickets barging into the last Liverpool Champs League final. This precise behavior killed 96 members of their support. Yet they do it again.

 

I despair at some people.

 

 

very true, they contributed to the deaths of their fellow fans but still bleat on about justice for the 96. a sad day and many things went wrong to cause it but would it have happened without the ticketless fans?

[Denny Crane]

very true, they contributed to the deaths of their fellow fans but still bleat on about justice for the 96. a sad day and many things went wrong to cause it but would it have happened without the ticketless fans?

 

 

I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record here. However ignorance does need to be challenged:-

 

Go a read the Taylor Report into the disaster - I've provided a link within this thread. You will find that the Lord Chief Justice makes it clear that the ticketless fans theory is a minor issue and not the primary cause of the disaster. If anyone gets it tight from Taylor it is the South Yorkshire Police and their poor handling of the event.

 

I'll-founded statements such as the one you have made only served to perpetuate myth as fact and not only misleads those who do not have full knowledge of what happened but is also insulting to not only the friends and families who lost loved ones.

 

A genuine question - and I apologise if I come off a tad rude here as this is not the intention. Are you making this crass comment because you have some form of prejudice against Liverpudlians as a whole (and thus letting that get in the way of rational thought) or are you in complete ignorance of what happened that day but continue to peddle a myth out of sheer stupidity?

[Ron Burgundy]

Whoever was responsible be it the cops or the scousers (I have my own opinion but I'll keep it to myself) because of their actions I now pay near enough ?500 to watch football sat on my erse on a piece of plastic in a stadium that resembles a morgue most of the time.

[Sparky]

Whoever was responsible be it the cops or the scousers (I have my own opinion but I'll keep it to myself) because of their actions I now pay near enough ?500 to watch football sat on my erse on a piece of plastic in a stadium that resembles a morgue most of the time.

 

I'd guess that seating would have been introduced anyway. If Hillsborough hadn't been the catalyst, something else would have been. Maybe it would have been a more gradual conversion, but we'll never know for sure.

 

I've personally found most of the thread quite interesting and informative at times.

[Denny Crane]

Whoever was responsible be it the cops or the scousers (I have my own opinion but I'll keep it to myself) because of their actions I now pay near enough ?500 to watch football sat on my erse on a piece of plastic in a stadium that resembles a morgue most of the time.

 

You don't think inflation, rising wages, greedy directors and various breakdowns in club/player contracts - such as the Bosman case - might have played their part as well.

 

Also bear in mind Aberdeen and Coventry had long imposed all-seater stadia before Hillsborough. There's a clip on Youtube of Match of the Day from that night with Jimmy Hill giving it "I told you so" when he recalls the stick he got for making Coventry all-seater.

[yeehaa]

Whoever was responsible be it the cops or the scousers (I have my own opinion but I'll keep it to myself) because of their actions I now pay near enough ?500 to watch football sat on my erse on a piece of plastic in a stadium that resembles a morgue most of the time.

 

 

Nice way to put it - stadiums resemble morgues because of hillsborough

 

Not related to that though, have any of the people who are still trying to say the few ticketless fans were a significant factor in this actually bothered to read the report? The conviction people seem to have in completely unsupported opinion is incredible.

[The Vulture]

Because fans were penned in and looking back at how the whole event unfolded with hindsight, unfortunately such a disaster was going to happen at somepoint. As I said earlier, it nearly happened a few years earlier in a semi final between Spurs and Wolves, however as there were no barriers stopping people from those fans were lucky.

 

Various comments can be found under articles reflecting on that sad day.

 

One of the comments from a Guardian article says

 

MisterCreosote

April 15, 2008 11:42 AM

Salford/gbr Often overlooked is the warning shot across the bows that Hillsborough's command and control and Sheffield police had 8 years earlier.

 

In 1981, Spurs played Wolves at Hillsborough and Spurs were allocated the Leppings Lane End. They spilled over the fences and many fans watched the game from the pitch side. A memory of that day before kick-off is Spurs fans in the seats above the terracing hoisting people upwards.

 

 

There is also a reference in this article to the Spurs game. http://ayup.co.uk/ref/ref0-9.html

[Uberjambo]

I have a feeling that the unfounded accusations made against LFC fans from some posters on here, could be down to the terrible scenes we saw in the Heysel stadium.

 

As mentioned earlier, alot of peoples views of Liverpool fans are taken from that tradgedy. Apportioning blame was easier there though.

Respect to those who died at Hillsborough. They were totally innocent.