The Rangers soap opera goes on and on.

[Paolo]

Agreed. Oddly though that article is very scathing of Romanov despite him clamouring for a reaction similar to the one he likely would have given. The 'conspiracies' Romanov spoke of have proven to be nothing of the sort; instead he was spot on in recognising the corruption in our game.

 

It takes one to know one; Romanov had many faults but calling out our game for what it is was not one of them

The Romanov comment is the only part I don't agree with.

 

They were not conspiracy theories. He has been proven correct several times.

[ZeroHour]

This was never going to result in titles being stripped. For me you have to seperate the tax evasion from the registration rules.

 

The tax issue was a complicated matter and at that time it was legal.

 

The registration issue is the one that matters (football wise) and either a blind eye was turned at the time of these contracts or there was a massive flaw in in checking procedures of registration documents that spanned a number of years. I suspect the latter.

 

To punish Rangers 2 for this raises a lot of awkward questions as to why this was not spotted at the time and Rangers could well argue that they felt all was in order as they had never been challenged regarding this. Of course one could also say that they willfully withheld the necessary information.

 

To find Rangers guilty of cheating would in my opinion result in huge embarrassment to our football authorities due to incompetence at that time and therefore a sweep it under the carpet was always going to happen.

 

Good post, you probably got across better the same point i made earlier.

 

On the actual practice of using EBT's, this sticks in everyone's craw, so to speak, but I can't see anything in the (inadequate) rules that were breached. Ultimately the supreme court ruling simply meant hmrc had the right to collect on the tax bill they issued. The bill will actually now be paid in part too, (but not in full), when BDO pay the oldco's pot out to creditors. In theory, other clubs that evaded tax via EBTs that then "settled" may have negotiated and paid less tax than should have been due.

 

I think football in general is the wild west of corporate maleficence where the authorities are either inept in dealing with such practices, or worse, complicit.

 

When looking at the ebt era, and the rules, i don't think ebt's themselves breached the (inadequate) rules - but paying players without declaring payments to the SPL /SFA surely did breach the rules.

 

Having read LNS explanation as to why those payments DID NOT void player registrations... i'm still none the wiser. But it seems as though that ruling was binding & final with no means of appeal?

[Glamorgan Jambo]

Matt Leslie's blog is highly critical of Ann Budge in her role as an SPFL Board member in this piece.  I agree with him.

 

http://mattleslie74.weebly.com/blog/where-did-it-go-wrong-ann

 

I can't agree with Matt's blog this time.

 

When you're on this sort of committe you're bound by collective responsibility. You either publicly accept the decision of the majority or you resign it's that simple. I think our interests, and Scottish Football's, are best served with Ann staying on the SPFL board.

 

If you look at what's different with this statement and previous ones there's the promise (which I know can be broken) for Doncaster to meet with fans groups and explain the decision, and there's the enquiry into the governance of the game (and yes I know this can just be framed as pointedly as the Nimmo Smith enquiry). I'm sure she's had some influence on the outcome.

 

What's sure is this controversy ain't going anywhere, the belligerence coming out of Ibrox (aimed at taking the heat away from King) is only adding fuel to the fire, and there appears to be the near certainty of a Judicial Review (I'd like to see Doncaster repeat some of the statements he made this week when he's under oath).

 

Let's see what happens when the season starts. Most likely RFC will lose a few games early on and the blame/pressure will be piled on the hapless coach or they'll win a few, their fans will get more obnoxious than usual which will start provoking a strong and visible reaction across SPFL clubs (Traynor will no longer be able to summarise the issue as something mainly associated with Celtic).

[Footballfirst]

Good post, you probably got across better the same point i made earlier.

 

On the actual practice of using EBT's, this sticks in everyone's craw, so to speak, but I can't see anything in the (inadequate) rules that were breached. Ultimately the supreme court ruling simply meant hmrc had the right to collect on the tax bill they issued. The bill will actually now be paid in part too, (but not in full), when BDO pay the oldco's pot out to creditors. In theory, other clubs that evaded tax via EBTs that then "settled" may have negotiated and paid less tax than should have been due.

 

I think football in general is the wild west of corporate maleficence where the authorities are either inept in dealing with such practices, or worse, complicit.

 

When looking at the ebt era, and the rules, i don't think ebt's themselves breached the (inadequate) rules - but paying players without declaring payments to the SPL /SFA surely did breach the rules.

 

Having read LNS explanation as to why those payments DID NOT void player registrations... i'm still none the wiser. But it seems as though that ruling was binding & final with no means of appeal?

 

Even if we stick to the non registration of the side letters, LNS described Rangers actions as follows:

 

"While there is no question of dishonesty, individual or corporate, we nevertheless take the view that the nondisclosure must be regarded as deliberate, in the sense that a decision was taken that the side letters need not be or should not be disclosed."

 

The following letter demonstrates Rangers approach with HMRC, and one would assume with the SFA.  You decide if it was "dishonest" or "deliberate".  Of course, LNS wouldn't have had sight of this letter.

 

 

[Footballfirst]

Twohundredpercent hits the mark once again.

 

http://twohundredpercent.net/rangers-story-really-begins/

[jaywalker]

Am I right in thinking the EBTs were just tax avoidance, similar to schemes other clubs have in place, legal at the time but subsequently found to be naughty. The big issue according to footballing authorities is player registration flaws.

This whole charade is doing my box in.

[Gizmo]

This was never going to result in titles being stripped. For me you have to seperate the tax evasion from the registration rules.

 

The tax issue was a complicated matter and at that time it was legal.

 

The registration issue is the one that matters (football wise) and either a blind eye was turned at the time of these contracts or there was a massive flaw in in checking procedures of registration documents that spanned a number of years. I suspect the latter.

 

To punish Rangers 2 for this raises a lot of awkward questions as to why this was not spotted at the time and Rangers could well argue that they felt all was in order as they had never been challenged regarding this. Of course one could also say that they willfully withheld the necessary information. 

 

To find Rangers guilty of cheating would in my opinion result in huge embarrassment to our football authorities due to incompetence at that time and therefore a sweep it under the carpet was always going to happen.

Flaw my arse, a recipient of an EBT was President of the SFA. Don't tell me they were not spotted. 

[JamboAl]

Am I right in thinking the EBTs were just tax avoidance, similar to schemes other clubs have in place, legal at the time but subsequently found to be naughty. The big issue according to footballing authorities is player registration flaws.

This whole charade is doing my box in.

My understanding is that EBTs are proper legal vehicles and can be used effectively by employers.

What is not legal, tax-wise at least, is using them to disguise contracted remuneration and any half-wit CA should know this.

[Footballfirst]

............................. any half-wit CA should know this.

At the FTTT, the CA (Poon) did recognise it.  It was the half-wit QC (Mure) and WS (Rae) who were seduced by the legal nuances of the EBT Trust, sub-trusts and loans, all being lawfully set up in their own right, but failed to recognise that the sums deposited in the trusts were taxable earnings.

[FWJ]

Even if we stick to the non registration of the side letters, LNS described Rangers actions as follows:

 

"While there is no question of dishonesty, individual or corporate, we nevertheless take the view that the nondisclosure must be regarded as deliberate, in the sense that a decision was taken that the side letters need not be or should not be disclosed."

 

The following letter demonstrates Rangers approach with HMRC, and one would assume with the SFA.  You decide if it was "dishonest" or "deliberate".  Of course, LNS wouldn't have had sight of this letter.

 

 

Sorry if I'm being dim here, but is that letter genuine?

Surely dynamite if so?

[kila]

Twohundredpercent hits the mark once again.

 

http://twohundredpercent.net/rangers-story-really-begins/

 

That was a good read

[Footballfirst]

Sorry if I'm being dim here, but is that letter genuine?

Surely dynamite if so?

Yes.

 

This is what Dr Poon said about Mr Red's (Ian MacMillan's) evidence to the FTTT.

 

It would appear that the side-letters were actively concealed in the course of HMRC?s investigation because they answered the central question raised by the enquiry regarding the basis of determining the amounts to be contributed to the main Trust and the sub-trusts. The side-letters also evidence the existence of some form of contractual agreement between the employer and the employees.

Mr Red was an incredible witness. It would appear that he was obstructive in his conduct during the HMRC?s enquiry, and obscurantist in the way he gave evidence on what could be called a ?virtual reality?, one that conformed to his own understanding of how the trust scheme should have functioned to stay within the bounds of legitimacy as a tax-saving scheme. It would also appear that he tried to influence Mrs Crimson (and possibly Mr Scarlet) in their giving of evidence.

[CJGJ]

Twohundredpercent hits the mark once again.

 

http://twohundredpercent.net/rangers-story-really-begins/

Once again posting information from the point of view of a Celtic fan and failing to 'declare it'....it's becoming common place from you .

 

Given you agree with the tale posted you seem to be agreeing with the fact that soft loans are Financial doping as he insinuates...........I hope then that your point of view applies to all football clubs and look forward to your response when asked to comment on loans received from benefactors of the majority of SPL clubs........as it was put 'Financial doping anyone'

[buzzbomb1958]

It doesn't matter how you paint it sevco,zombies,Rangersnomore,they are cheating fufcks and they have to live with it

[Footballfirst]

Once again posting information from the point of view of a Celtic fan and failing to 'declare it'....it's becoming common place from you .

 

Given you agree with the tale posted you seem to be agreeing with the fact that soft loans are Financial doping as he insinuates...........I hope then that your point of view applies to all football clubs and look forward to your response when asked to comment on loans received from benefactors of the majority of SPL clubs........as it was put 'Financial doping anyone'

I think that if you look back far enough you'll find that I viewed Romanov's tenure at Hearts as "financial doping", particularly his DFE swaps and loan write offs amounting to over ?40m

 

16-Nov-05    2,000,000    (SMG) Loan stock + interest forgiveness            

31-Jul-08    12,000,000    Debt for equity swap            

31-Jul-10    5,926,000    Related party forgiveness            

31-Jul-10    1,255,000    Parent Company forgiveness            

31-Jul-10    721,000        (SMG) Loan stock forgiveness            

11-Nov-10    10,000,000    Debt for equity swap            

30-Jun-11    8,804,000    Parent Company forgiveness            

Total        40,706,000                

 

Edited July 30, 2017 by Footballfirst

[newbie]

Once again posting information from the point of view of a Celtic fan and failing to 'declare it'....it's becoming common place from you .

 

 

You don't really do irony, do you? Exchange the word Celtic with Rangers and it sums you up perfectly.

[CJGJ]

I think that if you look back far enough you'll find that I viewed Romanov's tenure at Hearts as "financial doping", particularly his DFE swaps and loan write offs amounting to over ?40m

 

16-Nov-05    2,000,000    (SMG) Loan stock + interest forgiveness            

31-Jul-08    12,000,000    Debt for equity swap            

31-Jul-10    5,926,000    Related party forgiveness            

31-Jul-10    1,255,000    Parent Company forgiveness            

31-Jul-10    721,000        (SMG) Loan stock forgiveness            

11-Nov-10    10,000,000    Debt for equity swap            

30-Jun-11    8,804,000    Parent Company forgiveness            

Total        40,706,000                

 

Avoiding the question it seems..........do you agree other clubs who currently have soft loans are in fact involved in 'Financial doping' ?

[IveSeenTheLight]

Once again posting information from the point of view of a Celtic fan and failing to 'declare it'....it's becoming common place from you .

 

Given you agree with the tale posted you seem to be agreeing with the fact that soft loans are Financial doping as he insinuates...........I hope then that your point of view applies to all football clubs and look forward to your response when asked to comment on loans received from benefactors of the majority of SPL clubs........as it was put 'Financial doping anyone'

Dress it up how you like, OldCo fielded ineligible players due to inaccurate registrations accordance with the requirements.

They could only attract said players by trying to fleece the taxman.

They cheated, end of.

This will never be forgotten.

 

If NewCo want to keep the history and the titles thatOldCo acquired throughout their tarnished history, then NewCo should have to stump up for all of OldCo's debts.

 

Do not think we are not stupid.

The cheating still goes on.

I have no doubt the liquidation could have been prevented and indeed was fabricated in order to get away with their decades of cheating.

 

Same old Rangers, always cheating.

Same old Rangers, always cheating.

Same old Rangers, always cheating.

Same old Rangers, always cheating.

Edited July 30, 2017 by IveSeenTheLight

[PeterintheRain]

My understanding is that EBTs are proper legal vehicles and can be used effectively by employers.

What is not legal, tax-wise at least, is using them to disguise contracted remuneration and any half-wit CA should know this.

 

  An Employee benefit Trust is perfectly legal.  Putting your contractual pay through one in order to avoid tax has always been illegal.  This whole series of court cases has been about establishing if that is what deadgers were doing.  They broke the law. They are criminals. LNS is a slavering cretin.  The gfa(gtf)  need to be destroyed and the entire Scottish Football establishment eradicated and replaced with a functioning organisation which is under orders to care about more than just the arsecheeks.

[PeterintheRain]

Dress it up how you like, OldCo fielded ineligible players due to inaccurate registrations accordance with the requirements.

They could only attract said players by trying to fleece the taxman.

They cheated, end of.

This will never be forgotten.

 

If NewCo want to keep the history and the titles thatOldCo acquired throughout their tarnished history, then NewCo should have to stump up for all of OldCo's debts.

 

Do not think we are not stupid.

The cheating still goes on.

I have no doubt the liquidation could have been prevented and indeed was fabricated in order to get away with their decades of cheating.

 

Same old Rangers, always cheating.

Same old Rangers, always cheating.

Same old Rangers, always cheating.

Same old Rangers, always cheating.

 

   Sevco can't pay off any debts from deadgers.  Clubs are not allowed to fund other clubs.   Also nobody can buy a title won by somebody else.   The whole idea is ludicrous and shame on you for going along with such a fantasy. Do you have scrapie?

[MR INCREDIBLE]

Yet another home draw in a cup should help them out a bit.

[IveSeenTheLight]

An Employee benefit Trust is perfectly legal.  Putting your contractual pay through one in order to avoid tax has always been illegal.  This whole series of court cases has been about establishing if that is what deadgers were doing.  They broke the law. They are criminals. LNS is a slavering cretin.  The gfa(gtf)  need to be destroyed and the entire Scottish Football establishment eradicated and replaced with a functioning organisation which is under orders to care about more than just the arsecheeks.

It's corruption bordering FIFA scale.

Like Blatter and Platini, Doncaster and Reagan need to go.

[IveSeenTheLight]

Sevco can't pay off any debts from deadgers.  Clubs are not allowed to fund other clubs.   Also nobody can buy a title won by somebody else.   The whole idea is ludicrous and shame on you for going along with such a fantasy. Do you have scrapie?

I agree entirely.

That's my subtle point, they are a new club and have won nothing.

I said so a long time ago in here.

 

0 top flight titles.

0 Scottish Cups

0 League cups.

They didn't even win the Petrofac diddy cup.

 

What's a scrapie?

[CJGJ]

It's corruption bordering FIFA scale.

Like Blatter and Platini, Doncaster and Reagan need to go.

Comments from Celtics friends are always welcome

 

Me I just have a dislike of  every one of those involved.. Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen but you and your followers like a few on here really are acting at the behest of Celtic fans and need to be reminded of that.

Never though I'd see the day when Celtic and Aberdeen fans pat each other on the back but given their links on this issue it's no surprise

[IveSeenTheLight]

Comments from Celtics friends are always welcome

 

Me I just have a dislike of  every one of those involved.. Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen but you and your followers like a few on here really are acting at the behest of Celtic fans and need to be reminded of that.

Never though I'd see the day when Celtic and Aberdeen fans pat each other on the back but given their links on this issue it's no surprise

Lol, how very Rangers minded of you.

An obvious preference for supporting Rangers and a clear attempt to deflect from the truth.

 

If you look closely, you'll see I am an Aberdeen fan and can form an intelligent opinion based on my own reviews and findings.

[Footballfirst]

Avoiding the question it seems..........do you agree other clubs who currently have soft loans are in fact involved in 'Financial doping' ?

If the clubs can service the loans while running on a break even basis over the short to medium term, say 3-5 years then no.  To my mind, it's spending beyond your means year on year that makes it financial doping.

 

BTW - feel free to publish a link to a "Rangers-minded" article that provides an evidence based analysis of what has gone on, preferably one that doesn't indulge in "taig" conspiracies at HMRC, the judiciary, the MSM and government departments.  

 

I've seen a few tax specialists reviews of the SC decision which make reasoned arguments on why they think the Inner House / SC decisions were wrong, but I can't recall reading anything from those Rangers bloggers who have previously presented reasoned arguments about aspects of the Rangers saga.

[CJGJ]

If the clubs can service the loans while running on a break even basis over the short to medium term, say 3-5 years then no.  To my mind, it's spending beyond your means year on year that makes it financial doping.

 

BTW - feel free to publish a link to a "Rangers-minded" article that provides an evidence based analysis of what has gone on, preferably one that doesn't indulge in "taig" conspiracies at HMRC, the judiciary, the MSM and government departments.  

 

I've seen a few tax specialists reviews of the SC decision which make reasoned arguments on why they think the Inner House / SC decisions were wrong, but I can't recall reading anything from those Rangers bloggers who have previously presented reasoned arguments about aspects of the Rangers saga.

To get into a position of needing soft loans then you would need to be overspending and in all probability over a fair period of time......there are a number of current clubs who have not met your criteria on financial doping and so I look forward to your condemnation of them.

 

I'm glad you agree that much of your info comes from Celtic minded sources and especially the article in question written by a Celtic fan and a friend of that well known Hearts supporter Sergey of Hibs.net fame...that's the company you are keeping.

On virtually all other issues you would not be blinded by Celtic fans and their media friends but on this you and others especially our Aberdeen friends are joined together at the hip and that says it all. 

 

It's right you and others are challenged on this thread for if not you would get away with so much with many on here simply agreeing with you blindly not questioning the source of much of your information. You seem never to question it perhaps as it suits your viewpoint

On this topic there appears to be little room for middle ground comment and daring to question simply gets you tarred as one of them which is sad but when all is said and done water off a ducks back. Views are entrenched and I doubt anyone will be party to a meeting of minds.

Personally the matter stunk from the beginning and I wanted police involvement some time ago as to the sale of Rangers and the administration that followed.

Now that the trial of Whyte is over  who knows what will happen but it's time to move on and rewrite the rule book for the future remembering the lessons of the past.

[IveSeenTheLight]

To get into a position of needing soft loans then you would need to be overspending and in all probability over a fair period of time......there are a number of current clubs who have not met your criteria on financial doping and so I look forward to your condemnation of them.

 

I'm glad you agree that much of your info comes from Celtic minded sources and especially the article in question written by a Celtic fan and a friend of that well known Hearts supporter Sergey of Hibs.net fame...that's the company you are keeping.

On virtually all other issues you would not be blinded by Celtic fans and their media friends but on this you and others especially our Aberdeen friends are joined together at the hip and that says it all. 

 

It's right you and others are challenged on this thread for if not you would get away with so much with many on here simply agreeing with you blindly not questioning the source of much of your information. You seem never to question it perhaps as it suits your viewpoint

On this topic there appears to be little room for middle ground comment and daring to question simply gets you tarred as one of them which is sad but when all is said and done water off a ducks back. Views are entrenched and I doubt anyone will be party to a meeting of minds.

Personally the matter stunk from the beginning and I wanted police involvement some time ago as to the sale of Rangers and the administration that followed.

Now that the trial of Whyte is over  who knows what will happen but it's time to move on and rewrite the rule book for the future remembering the lessons of the past.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Just accept. SevCo cheated and the governing bodies are corrupt in covering it up.

You are implicit by also wishing to move on and let it be covered up.

[CJGJ]

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Just accept. SevCo cheated and the governing bodies are corrupt in covering it up.

You are implicit by also wishing to move on and let it be covered up.

Yes I'll listen to you........................................................................................................when I'm dead

 

Until then you should act as a guest and your comments should reflect that......I may not agree with my fellow fans on some topics but I will note their comments whereas yours can be read and forgotten a bit like your glory years

[Footballfirst]

To get into a position of needing soft loans then you would need to be overspending and in all probability over a fair period of time......there are a number of current clubs who have not met your criteria on financial doping and so I look forward to your condemnation of them.

 

I'm glad you agree that much of your info comes from Celtic minded sources and especially the article in question written by a Celtic fan and a friend of that well known Hearts supporter Sergey of Hibs.net fame...that's the company you are keeping.

On virtually all other issues you would not be blinded by Celtic fans and their media friends but on this you and others especially our Aberdeen friends are joined together at the hip and that says it all. 

 

It's right you and others are challenged on this thread for if not you would get away with so much with many on here simply agreeing with you blindly not questioning the source of much of your information. You seem never to question it perhaps as it suits your viewpoint

On this topic there appears to be little room for middle ground comment and daring to question simply gets you tarred as one of them which is sad but when all is said and done water off a ducks back. Views are entrenched and I doubt anyone will be party to a meeting of minds.

Personally the matter stunk from the beginning and I wanted police involvement some time ago as to the sale of Rangers and the administration that followed.

Now that the trial of Whyte is over  who knows what will happen but it's time to move on and rewrite the rule book for the future remembering the lessons of the past.

If you care to list the clubs you are concerned about, then I'll happily have a look at their accounts.  Looking at file manager on my laptop, I currently have folders for 17 SPFL teams.

 

Most of my knowledge comes from my own research and is based primarily on statutory records, like accounts, companies house and court documents, or statements via organisations websites. I'm not blinded by anyone's views.  But yes, I do, and have shared documents with what you would call Celtic minded individuals.  Can you tell me what is wrong with Celtic minded sources if the information is true and represents an evidence based analysis.  As I indicated in my previous post I'd welcome similar analysis from Rangers minded writers, or any other club associated writer.  I haven't a clue about the twohundredpercent writer's associates.  I'm more interested in their written work.  If I think it is worth sharing then I will do so.

 

I'm happy to be challenged on any post I make.

 

I'd suggest that it is you that has a problem when you are challenged, as more often than not you fail to present a persuasive counter argument that might alter peoples thinking.

 

That said, you make fair points in your last three sentences.  Views are largely entrenched with little scope for changing mindsets.   I too have followed the saga, but from a year or two before the sale of the club to Whyte, as I had started tracking clubs finances by then.  I agree that earlier police involvement might have produced different result. I would love to hear more of what went on during Whyte's tenure, the administration period and the early months of the Newco, but because of failings of the Police and the Crown, we have all missed out on finding out the truth.  I even agree with your last sentence, barring the "time to move on" element.  I would like to move on too, but not on the basis of the governance model and individuals who have failed to preserve the integrity of the game over the last 15-20 years.  Right the wrongs, get shot of the failing individuals, implement a new governance model and rule book, then we can move on.

 

See .. we can agree on some things.   

Edited July 30, 2017 by Footballfirst

[CJGJ]

If you care to list the clubs you are concerned about, then I'll happily have a look at their accounts.  Looking at file manager on my laptop, I currently have folders for 17 SPFL teams.

 

Most of my knowledge comes from my own research and is based primarily on statutory records, like accounts, companies house and court documents, or statements via organisations websites. I'm not blinded by anyone's views.  But yes, I do, and have shared documents with what you would call Celtic minded individuals.  Can you tell me what is wrong with Celtic minded sources if the information is true and represents an evidence based analysis.  As I indicated in my previous post I'd welcome similar analysis from Rangers minded writers, or any other club associated writer.  I haven't a clue about the twohundredpercent writer's associates.  I'm more interested in their written work.  If I think it is worth sharing then I will do so.

 

I'm happy to be challenged on any post I make.

 

I'd suggest that it is you that has a problem when you are challenged, as more often than not you fail to present a persuasive counter argument that might alter peoples thinking.

 

That said, you make fair points in your last three sentences.  Views are largely entrenched with little scope for changing mindsets.   I too have followed the saga, but from a year or two before the sale of the club to Whyte, as I had started tracking clubs finances by then.  I agree that earlier police involvement might have produced different result. I would love to hear more of what went on during Whyte's tenure, the administration period and the early months of the Newco, but because of failings of the Police and the Crown, we have all missed out on finding out the truth.  I even agree with your last sentence, barring the "time to move on" element.  I would like to move on too, but not on the basis of the governance model and individuals who have failed to preserve the integrity of the game over the last 15-20 years.  Right the wrongs, get shot of the failing individuals, implement a new governance model and rule book, then we can move on.

 

See .. we can agree on some things.   

I will comment just a little...in the case of sources anything that comes from Celtic minded sources should on this topic be handled with care and in many cases this has not happened.

We of all clubs should recognise this given the rubbish that was printed by some of our closest rivals.

 

I am no defender of Rangers but at the same time I do not blindly accept all that is written about them and by your own admission you share documents with Celtic fans and associates and that gives me reason to doubt your independence on this matter.

Glad to see your admission though publicly posted for all to see

 

I don't quote Rangers minded blogs for like the Celtic blogs they are so skewed in opinions they are virtually worthless and in any case I see my role as simply questioning what you and others claim to be a true version of events. I'm not here to make counter arguments but to pick holes in what I see as your biased reporting of the situation.

Like many things the truth is usually somewhere in the middle not on the extreme end of the scale

Edited July 30, 2017 by CJGJ

[redjambo]

I will comment just a little...in the case of sources anything that comes from Celtic minded sources should on this topic be handled with care and in many cases this has not happened.

We of all clubs should recognise this given the rubbish that was printed by some of our closest rivals.

 

I am no defender of Rangers but at the same time I do not blindly accept all that is written about them and by your own admission you share documents with Celtic fans and associates and that gives me reason to doubt your independence on this matter.

Glad to see your admission though publicly posted for all to see

 

I don't quote Rangers minded blogs for like the Celtic blogs they are so skewed in opinions they are virtually worthless and in any case I see my role as simply questioning what you and others claim to be a true version of events. I'm not here to make counter arguments but to pick holes in what I see as your biased reporting of the situation.

Like many things the truth is usually somewhere in the middle not on the extreme end of the scale

 

It's always good to go to bed with a smile on my face, so thanks for that.

 

[buzzbomb1958]

DEID CHEATS No more to be said

[Horatio Caine]

I agree entirely.

That's my subtle point, they are a new club and have won nothing.

I said so a long time ago in here.

 

0 top flight titles.

0 Scottish Cups

0 League cups.

They didn't even win the Petrofac diddy cup.

 

What's a scrapie?

It's not a scrapie it's just plain scrapie - a sheep disease. Nasty.

[269miles]

This was never going to result in titles being stripped. For me you have to seperate the tax evasion from the registration rules.

 

The tax issue was a complicated matter and at that time it was legal.

 

The registration issue is the one that matters (football wise) and either a blind eye was turned at the time of these contracts or there was a massive flaw in in checking procedures of registration documents that spanned a number of years. I suspect the latter.

 

To punish Rangers 2 for this raises a lot of awkward questions as to why this was not spotted at the time and Rangers could well argue that they felt all was in order as they had never been challenged regarding this. Of course one could also say that they willfully withheld the necessary information. 

 

To find Rangers guilty of cheating would in my opinion result in huge embarrassment to our football authorities due to incompetence at that time and therefore a sweep it under the carpet was always going to happen.

You need to read the various drafts of the 5 way agreement that are doing the rounds - title stripping was on the table from the start (if the  docs are in any way accurate). 

 

Hopefully the judicial review will go ahead and this document will see the light of day in court. 

[Footballfirst]

You need to read the various drafts of the 5 way agreement that are doing the rounds - title stripping was on the table from the start (if the  docs are in any way accurate). 

 

Hopefully the judicial review will go ahead and this document will see the light of day in court.

From the first (?) draft of the 5-way agreement - see (J)

 

 

and (see EBT sanctions)

 

 

You will see that the earliest draft envisaged that Rangers would forfeit all their titles.

 

By the sixth (final?) draft all references to EBTs had gone from the agreement.  That appears to be a pretty decent piece of negotiation by Charles Green.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Footballfirst

[Unknown user]

Yes I'll listen to you........................................................................................................when I'm dead

 

Until then you should act as a guest and your comments should reflect that......I may not agree with my fellow fans on some topics but I will note their comments whereas yours can be read and forgotten a bit like your glory years

He's a guest as much as anyone else, with a username, password, and the right to say what he wants within the rules.

Wind your neck in.

Edited July 31, 2017 by ManMoth

[IveSeenTheLight]

Yes I'll listen to you........................................................................................................when I'm dead

 

Until then you should act as a guest and your comments should reflect that......I may not agree with my fellow fans on some topics but I will note their comments whereas yours can be read and forgotten a bit like your glory years

It's evident that you dismiss any opinions against Rangers as simply being "Celtic minded".

It's a distraction technique but rest assured true fans of the sporty want integrity and will not let it lie.

[Captain America]

I agree entirely.

That's my subtle point, they are a new club and have won nothing.

I said so a long time ago in here.

 

0 top flight titles.

0 Scottish Cups

0 League cups.

They didn't even win the Petrofac diddy cup.

 

What's a scrapie?

They did win the Petrofac Cup

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35953055

[IveSeenTheLight]

They did win the Petrofac Cup

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35953055

 

Ok, that's their legacy as it stands as well as some lower league titles.

Still no major domestic trophy's

[269miles]

From the first (?) draft of the 5-way agreement - see (J)

 

 

and (see EBT sanctions)

 

 

You will see that the earliest draft envisaged that Rangers would forfeit all their titles.

 

By the sixth (final?) draft all references to EBTs had gone from the agreement.  That appears to be a pretty decent piece of negotiation by Charles Green.

FF - not sure if you are making a a statement or asking me a question. I haven't seen all the various alleged versions of the 5 way agreement and no one knows for sure if any that are floating about in the ether are kosher. only a judicial review will flush this out once and for all. 

 

As ever, thanks for your input. 

[Footballfirst]

FF - not sure if you are making a a statement or asking me a question. I haven't seen all the various alleged versions of the 5 way agreement and no one knows for sure if any that are floating about in the ether are kosher. only a judicial review will flush this out once and for all. 

 

As ever, thanks for your input.

It was neither. I have copies of what are alleged to be the first and sixth drafts of the 5-way agreement.  The document was changed significantly during its various stages.

 

I thought that it was appropriate to share what was in the first draft as it was indicative of the thinking of the football authorities at the time.  You would need to ask Doncaster, Regan and McKenzie why they initially thought that stripping the titles was a reasonable price to pay for Sevco's admission to the leagues (SFL1 in the first draft), and what their reasoning was for dropping the those conditions.  By the time of the sixth (final?) draft, the SPL had apparently also given an undertaking that there would be no further disciplinary action on the newco/club.

 

You could speculate that Charles Green called their bluff at the last minute, threatening that there would be no "Rangers" in the league for the next season if the titles were withdrawn. I actually think that could have been the way it happened and that the football authorities bottled it, for fear of losing TV and other revenue.

 

If I'm right, then the next question to ask is why was there a need for the LNS commission when sporting sanctions were already off the table and guarantees had been given to the newco re action against them.  The SPL and SFA seemed willing to remove the titles unilaterally without reference to a disciplinary process. What was it that they knew that would justify such an action?    

[Lovecraft]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/1354181/rangers-12-in-a-row-dunfermline-league-cup-ibrox/

 

12 in a row

 

 

12!

 

https://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/statistics.html

Edited July 31, 2017 by Lovecraft

[CJGJ]

It's evident that you dismiss any opinions against Rangers as simply being "Celtic minded".

It's a distraction technique but rest assured true fans of the sporty want integrity and will not let it lie.

 

Oh dear you won't let it lie......well that's told us all

 

As the self appointed representative of all true fans you crack on , I guess you've got letters to write and people to see so keep us informed of your progress..........perhaps a yearly blog would be just about enough.

Edited July 31, 2017 by CJGJ

[jambovambo]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/1354181/rangers-12-in-a-row-dunfermline-league-cup-ibrox/

 

12 in a row

 

 

12!

 

https://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/statistics.html

Yeah but yeah but ... it's a 50:50 chance each time but n at. 

 

[Brick Tamland]

Oh dear you won't let it lie......well that's told us all

 

As the self appointed representative of all true fans you crack on , I guess you've got letters to write and people to see so keep us informed of your progress..........perhaps a yearly blog would be just about enough.

And you won't let it lie with your condescending and chronic Celtic minded shite.

Who are you to tell people they need to think independently when most of the stuff you spout is Rangers minded shite?

It's laughable that you pull up Football First who has been by far the best source of information and summarising that info on this topic and now you're picking on the Aberdeen chappie who has contributed more reasoned thinking on this topic than you.

You have made it very clear you are Rangers minded and accuse everyone else of being Celtic minded because of this. For the record (again) I despise both of them equally.

You need to start to think independently and not with that massive 'everyone is Celtic minded' chip on your sash.

[Mikey1874]

From the first (?) draft of the 5-way agreement - see (J)

 

 

and (see EBT sanctions)

 

 

You will see that the earliest draft envisaged that Rangers would forfeit all their titles.

 

By the sixth (final?) draft all references to EBTs had gone from the agreement. That appears to be a pretty decent piece of negotiation by Charles Green.

Questions to be answered

[FWJ]

Questions to be answered

They'll have to be asked first....

[Justin Z]

Something that would benefit everyone who reads this thread:

 

- Go to the top of the page and click your name

- Click "Edit My Profile" on the right

- Click "Ignore Preferences" on the left

- Scroll down to "Add a new user to my list" and in the box type CJGJ

- Click the tick box next to "Posts"

- Click Save Changes

 

You're done and you'll find your JKB experience massively improved.

 

Reposting because it's become even more relevant in the past few days.

[Gizmo]

Oh dear you won't let it lie......well that's told us all

 

As the self appointed representative of all true fans you crack on , I guess you've got letters to write and people to see so keep us informed of your progress..........perhaps a yearly blog would be just about enough.

Time for the ignore function. You've absolutely lost the ability to comprehend this saga with even a shred of impartiality and your preposterous hounding of posters like Football First and bizarre reactionary outbursts against any sources you deem to be "Celtic-minded" is ridiculous.