The Rangers soap opera goes on and on.

[Jodami]

celtic fans may want their titles removed, i'm not so sure lawell does, seems to me he has sevco right where he wants them and celtic are a big enough club to absorb the huns cheating, unlike smaller clubs once in their history chance at a trophy, not forgetting the financial strife many clubs got in, over reaching to keep up with the huns.

 

a lot of the smaller clubs that wanted the huns sorted only did it because of fan pressure, the urgency of this meeting may outdo a build up of pressure.

 

many chairmen didn't want the huns punished, many still vote to keep the voting structure in favour of the uglies and the most outspoken and fearless turnbull hutton is no longer with us.

Excellent points all. This is why it's really interesting to see what comes of this morning's meeting. Your point about many clubs not wanting the Huns punished is one of the reasons why I felt that we shouldn't waste our time at Hearts (board level) corodinating any kind of protest. They would get left high and dry by clubs desperate to see the Huns back in the top league. I hope they do the right thing but I'm not convinced.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Jodami

[jambovambo]

Possibly 2017 until EBT case is finally settled, if there is an appeal :

 

http://www.thenational.scot/sport/football-expert-claims-any-big-tax-case-appeal-could-be-delayed-until-2017.9671?utm_medium=social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_term=Autofeed#link_time=1446793456

[reaths17]

Look like a hun to you ? http://www.devereuxchambers.co.uk/barrister/55/jolyon_maugham

he didn't say anything to change the the act from being illegal as he was on about a completely different thing. savings for an a child under 18 to be received at 18 is perfectly legal under our present system, avoiding tax on wages is not legal, so it has been currently decided.

 

why did he bother writing it, changes nothing.

[Feeno]

With the shite that happening at Fifa and Uefa just now, and the no doubt career minded numbskulls occupying spaces on the board - could we actually see these plumbs forced into honesty - am I hoping for too much?

[Footballfirst]

Possibly 2017 until EBT case is finally settled, if there is an appeal :

 

http://www.thenational.scot/sport/football-expert-claims-any-big-tax-case-appeal-could-be-delayed-until-2017.9671?utm_medium=social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_term=Autofeed#link_time=1446793456

 

Or 28 days if there is no appeal.

[reaths17]

Excellent points all. This is why it's really interesting to see what comes of this morning's meeting. Your point about many clubs not wanting the Huns punished is one of the reasons why I felt that we shouldn't waste our time at Hearts (board level) corodinating any kind of protest. They would get left high and dry by clubs desperate to see the Huns back in the top league. I hope they do the right thing but I'm not convinced.

if only we were able to get this under the monopolies commission, the anti competition board etc, infact most fitba leagues in Europe would fall into this, apart from the blatant cheating ofcourse.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Interesting dilemma for the SFA - is there a clear enough breach of any rules to force them to act or do they pass the buck back to the member clubs and ask them if they want the SFA to re-open ? I'll bet the SFA is praying on the apathy of the clubs so they can bury this.

Then forums like this, although maybe not an actual spokesperson for the clubs need to get the message out to their respective clubs that they expect the clubs to do the right thing. Any fan of another club not wanting Newco hammered for this is not really a fan. Thousands and thousands of fans have been absolutely $#!t on for years and then had it flaunted in our faces by newspaper media, TV pundits and Newco fans about just how lucky we were to see such world class footballers grace our fields because Rangers were willing to spend the money. Time to stand up and be counted again.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Bollox Bollox Bollox, I honestly cant believe that some on here are actually against rangers getting the titles and trophies removed that were won during the years of unsporting advantage, this is the club that still want to proudly wear 5 stars above their crest yet don't want to pay the legal costs they should have done during the pursuit for the fifth star.

 

 

Absolutely agree with this, there is no place in any sport for cheats and cheats need to be brought to book at every opportunity as and when they are discovered.  

Every title and trophy Rangers won between 2001 - 2010 should now be stripped from them.

 

When ever Collum refs a Celtic game against us and blatantly cheats folk on here want him to never referee another game against us, why?  Because he's a cheat. 

Rangers cheated so why should they not lose their ill-gotten gains?

 

Hearts, Celtic, Aberdeen and the rest of Scottish football almost bankrupted themselves trying to keep up and at least try and stay competitive against Rangers, which we as the fans demanded we do, but it was never ever going to be enough and the reason is quite simple and that is because we and the rest of Scottish football played within the rules, whilst Rangers didn't and had no intention of playing fair, they knew it was wrong at the time so why should they be allowed to keep the titles and trophies they won during that time.

[Unknown user]

From the LNS decision dated 28 February 2013

 

 

The decision of the Court of Session means that the EBT scheme was not "lawful", subject to an appeal to the Supreme Court should leave to appeal be granted. Also the Discounted Option Scheme (Wee Tax Case) was not "lawful", but for reasons only known to the SPL the terms of reference of the commission were changed to use a start date of November 2000, rather than July 1998 (the inception of the SPL), which meant that evidence related to the DOS scheme, including that of Campbell Ogilvie, was not considered by LNS.

What does lawful mean, is it the same as legal?

 

The reason I ask is that it looks to me like EBTs are still legal, it's just that there's a tax liability involved.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

I'm a big fan of this thread, it's been very enlightening, and there's been some enjoyable moments for a football sadist like myself, but... this stripping titles stuff. I dunno about all that. Not sure I'm too comfortable with that stuff. Leave them as tainted I would say.

[269miles]

indeed, the LNS inquiry was an attempt to bury the cheating they knew had been done, hoping that if they got in before the outcome was reversed it would be forgotten, unfortunately not, so now they need to come up with another get out clause.

An interesting point being made on TSFM - there was no official statement from the governing bodies to confirm acceptance or otherwise of the LNS report.

 

Given the work on their (TSFM) part to bring to light the deception played on LNS by the authorities (eg the Wee Tax Case that was conveniently overlooked) then

there seems no reason not to review the LNS decision (ie it hasn't been confirmed ) and the new evidence of the role played by D&P & the omission by CO to speak out and correct this , should actually add weight to the argument that it ought to be reviewed. TSFM wrote to the SPFL board past & present and most/all footie

journalists to highlight the failings of the LNS commission but no one has responded or even acknowledged that correspondence.

[busby1985]

They dont however the statement will be that LNS dealt with this and they were satisfied with the outcome and wont revisit it.

When will someone ask for an independent review of the SFA and their part in this whole saga. I don't believe for a second they aren't guilty of something.

[CollyWolly]

What does lawful mean, is it the same as legal?

 

The reason I ask is that it looks to me like EBTs are still legal, it's just that there's a tax liability involved.

EBT's are perfectly legal. Employees can even take interest free loans on them (or any other kind of employee benefit which is not part of earnings, medical expenses perhaps) if that is what the company set them up for. However if the EBT provides a circuitous route for earned remuneration, it doesn't escape the liability for PAYE tax and NI

[Currahee!]

I can't be ersed trawling through the thread. Weren't sevco calling for that twitter account which blew the whistle to be investigated due to leaking confidential information? Also stating they wanted criminal charges brought against them? And yet King revealed confidential info in that Sky interview which MA rightly want's action taken against him. Someone please tell me it was King wanting charges brought in respect of the twitter account

 

Charlotte Fakes?

[jambovambo]

Blood pressure warning - DJ blowing out of his @rse :

 

http://m.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/13949546.Derek_Johnstone__The_EBT_saga_will_have_no_bearing_on_Rangers_going_forward__so_lets_hope_we_have_heard_the_end_of_it/?ref=twtrec

 

(Edit : Sorry I see he has his own thread ...)

Edited November 6, 2015 by jambovambo

[269miles]

What does lawful mean, is it the same as legal?

 

The reason I ask is that it looks to me like EBTs are still legal, it's just that there's a tax liability involved.

EBTs are legal/lawful , AFAIK, it's the way Rangers operated them that wasn't ie loans were guaranteed to be granted on request, the trustees had no real power

(Rangers actually brought in new trustees in Jersey when the incumbents raised some issues with Rangers on this ?), making no provision for even checking with

recipients that they had the ability to pay them back and the most obvious fact that no recipient has ever repaid a penny (to the best of my knowledge).

[Seymour M Hersh]

I'm a big fan of this thread, it's been very enlightening, and there's been some enjoyable moments for a football sadist like myself, but... this stripping titles stuff. I dunno about all that. Not sure I'm too comfortable with that stuff. Leave them as tainted I would say.

 

I like the asterisk idea next to all their tainted trophies. That way they are always reminded when looking at official sites. Also on their own web pages they would have to have the asterisks beside the "wins" as well. Rub their ****ing blue noses in it. 

 

I am however against redistributing the trophies to the various runners up.

[Footballfirst]

What does lawful mean, is it the same as legal?

 

The reason I ask is that it looks to me like EBTs are still legal, it's just that there's a tax liability involved.

 

Yes and yes.

 

EBTs were legal as long as the sums deposited in the trusts were truly discretionary. The CoS Lordships ruled that the sums involved were "earned"  by the players and others (ref side letters), therefore they were taxable.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Footballfirst

[Diadora Van Basten]

Our game has been rigged for the best part of a decade.

[269miles]

I like the asterisk idea next to all their tainted trophies. That way they are always reminded when looking at official sites. Also on their own web pages they would have to have the asterisks beside the "wins" as well. Rub their ******* blue noses in it. 

 

I am however against redistributing the trophies to the various runners up.

Just "void" the trophies for the years in question.

 

The OF have previous when the SFA withheld the Scottish cup one year (back in the 1890s ?) due to rioting by OF fans ? Maybe someone can confirm.

[269miles]

Just "void" the trophies for the years in question.

 

The OF have previous when the SFA withheld the Scottish cup one year (back in the 1890s ?) due to rioting by OF fans ? Maybe someone can confirm.

Just checked and found this - it was 1909.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2007/mar/21/theknowledge.sport

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just "void" the trophies for the years in question.

 

The OF have previous when the SFA withheld the Scottish cup one year (back in the 1890s ?) due to rioting by OF fans ? Maybe someone can confirm.

 

Did Celtic's 1-0 win not cause it all. Sure the video somewhere shows them receiving the cup from some old bit.

 

My point about the asterisks is that there has to be an explanation further down. Imagine the seethe from the orcs if on their own website they have to say these were won by employing unfair financial methods (or whatever).

Edited November 6, 2015 by Seymour M Hersh

[Jambo66]

This isn't the Lns enquiry though, this is about a possible appeal to the Supreme Court. I doubt they'll be any appeal tbh, the SPFL prob also think that too but will choose to wait & have that confirmed 1st.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think they probably will make a decision today. If they postpone until either the outcome of an appeal or a decision not to appeal, that strongly suggests that they will reopen the cheats case. They then find themselves under enormous pressure to strip the cheats of the titles and trophies.

[Daveandal]

Bollox Bollox Bollox, I honestly cant believe that some on here are actually against rangers getting the titles and trophies removed that were won during the years of unsporting advantage, this is the club that still want to proudly wear 5 stars above their crest yet don't want to pay the legal costs they should have done during the pursuit for the fifth star.

 

 

Juventus

Lance Armstrong

Ben Johnson

 

Above are the 3 names of "winners" in their respective sport that cheated to gain an advantage in each sport and then had the titles won during this time of unsporting advantage removed due to the cheating.

 

The name of Glasgow Rangers should also be added to the above list and any trophies won during the EBT years should also be scrubbed from the records (these ill gained titles should not be redistributed to runners up ect as there are just to many what if's to cloud it) and anyone that feels otherwise has clearly spent too many years being brainwashed by those telling all and sundry that the old firm is Scottish football and can do as they please.

 

If my above post does sound slightly bitter then yes i will happily hold my hands up and admit that after all the shit us Hearts supporters have had thrown at us and had to deal with over the last few years then yes I am slightly bitter that rangers did (and still are) given a free hand by the footballing authorities to what they do and don't want to be accountable for depending how it suits their current situation.

 

I mean FFS Dave King was involved as a director during this time and during the administration then on top of this throw in his tax convictions (so technically he was involved in two different businesses in two different countries that have been found out by the law of their land to have been involved in tax shenanigans) yet is still passed as a fit and proper person by our very own corrupt organisation.

 

The SFA now need to stand up and deal with it quickly and effectively otherwise they will be shown up to be even more corrupt that they are already thought to be.

I agree entirely

[Homme]

Giving their trophies to the runners up is a shan idea. A decades worth of football honours given to teams that didn't actually win them? No thanks.

[The Comedian]

Giving their trophies to the runners up is a shan idea. A decades worth of football honours given to teams that didn't actually win them? No thanks.

 

Void them, which I think happened to Juventus????

[Fort Vallance]

With the shite that happening at Fifa and Uefa just now, and the no doubt career minded numbskulls occupying spaces on the board - could we actually see these plumbs forced into honesty - am I hoping for too much?

The exact opposite I would say. With all the corruption at the top level of the game to deal with is anybody going to give a **** about a tinpot little league ?

[Don Dan]

What we need now is for Plod to take an interest in those operating the EBT scheme as it is now proven to be illegal.

[Unknown user]

Yes and yes.

 

EBTs were legal as long as the sums deposited in the trusts were truly discretionary. The CoS Lordships ruled that the sums involved were "earned" by the players and others (ref side letters), therefore they were taxable.

Yep, got that, but I'd think that EBTs are legal whether the amount is discretionary or not though.

 

The only thing that changes with the discretionary status is whether there's a tax liability to be paid, it doesn't imo change whether EBTs and their use are legal, which they are

[Poseidon]

Did Celtic back-pay all the tax on the Juninho EBT?

[Unknown user]

Did Celtic back-pay all the tax on the Juninho EBT?

I seem to remember that they did

[Poseidon]

I seem to remember that they did

Thought so, just wondering if that would influence how Celtic play this.

[DETTY29]

Did Celtic back-pay all the tax on the Juninho EBT?

Yes.

 

And they also registered his full remuneration package including EBT with the SPL / SFA.

 

And they didnt tell HMRC (Murray /Oram) that no side letters existed when asked.

 

Oh and we disclosed full remuneration of our players to the SPL / SFA too.

[Rudolf's Mate]

Charlotte Fakes?

 

Think it was @rangerstaxcase https://twitter.com/rangerstaxcase?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

 

Can't say I'd heard of it until the other day however it was mentioned in a few articles I read.

[Poseidon]

So we have Rangers, Hearts, Motherwell, Dundee, Livingston, Dunfermline, Gretna etc having gone into administration or liquidation and Celtic having failed to pay proper tax for a while. Hearts, Motherwell, Dundee, Livingston, Dunfermline have all agreed pence in the pound deals to pay back a proportion of the tax, which was within the rules, whilst Rangers and Gretna were liquidated and I guess HMRC will have possibly got/will get a small proportion of the money owed.

 

If the talk of stripping of titles is purely because of the use of an illegal scheme, does how Celtic used the scheme need to be investigated even if they've since paid the tax back? The paying (or not) of the tax doesn't really seem to be the issue does it? 

 

Can't really get my head round it all but help but think this will all get swept under the carpet again.

[DETTY29]

I imagine Brysons Law still stands and once he has accepted the club self sign off (crooked or not) that the players are registered legally forever, even where systematic deliberate non disclosure occurs.

 

So irrespective of the EBT outcome 3.0 results/losses can never happen.

 

Now what did LNS Heads of Terms set out to achieve, and who inputed to it? Mr Bryson for example?

Edited November 6, 2015 by DETTY29

[Poseidon]

Yes.

 

And they also registered his full remuneration package including EBT with the SPL / SFA.

 

And they didnt tell HMRC (Murray /Oram) that no side letters existed when asked.

 

Oh and we disclosed full remuneration of our players to the SPL / SFA too.

Ok thanks, so Celtic used the scheme 'appropriately' then it sounds, and when it was found that it should have attracted additional tax payments they made these. That makes sense.

[jambovambo]

he didn't say anything to change the the act from being illegal as he was on about a completely different thing. savings for an a child under 18 to be received at 18 is perfectly legal under our present system, avoiding tax on wages is not legal, so it has been currently decided.

 

why did he bother writing it, changes nothing.

Here's 1/3 of the guy talking to Artist Taxi Driver today : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAvVtMPAssM&feature=youtu.be

[Jamboelite]

Giving their trophies to the runners up is a shan idea. A decades worth of football honours given to teams that didn't actually win them? No thanks.

No one has suggested that just taking the name off the trophies

 

Im still not sure how I feel about that to be honest knocking their fans off the "we were cheated, it was legal and we demand millions in compensation" pedestal that they have been on is enjoyable. 

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Ok thanks, so Celtic used the scheme 'appropriately' then it sounds, and when it was found that it should have attracted additional tax payments they made these. That makes sense.

With Hearts, we were chased for and had to pay tax on players who we had paid tax on in Lithuania before they were loaned to us. It was decided that we should have paid tax on them here rather than Lithuania, if I remember correctly?

 

Also, didn't Ogilvie approach Romanov with this EBT scheme, but he dismissed it as being dodgy?

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Double

Edited November 6, 2015 by Bilel Mohsni

[Footballfirst]

Yep, got that, but I'd think that EBTs are legal whether the amount is discretionary or not though.

 

The only thing that changes with the discretionary status is whether there's a tax liability to be paid, it doesn't imo change whether EBTs and their use are legal, which they are

 

If a company with the agreement of the employee wishes to put earned money into an EBT, after tax has been paid on it, then it would be perfectly legal.  If that is what you are arguing, then I would agree with that.

 

IIRC the government introduced changes in 2010 or 2011 that changed the tax treatment of EBTs so that they were no longer tax efficient investments. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by Footballfirst

[reaths17]

Here's 1/3 of the guy talking to Artist Taxi Driver today : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAvVtMPAssM&feature=youtu.be

that doesn't change anything he said, he used an unrelated situation, to argue, a completely different case was wrong, when a court of experienced QC's(not ones who've just become QC's like himself) have said that it is illegal.

[jambovambo]

that doesn't change anything he said, he used an unrelated situation, to argue, a completely different case was wrong, when a court of experienced QC's(not ones who've just become QC's like himself) have said that it is illegal.

Fine but it will be interesting to read his next two blogs on the subject ...

[Dunks]

I like the asterisk idea next to all their tainted trophies. That way they are always reminded when looking at official sites. Also on their own web pages they would have to have the asterisks beside the "wins" as well. Rub their ******* blue noses in it. 

 

I am however against redistributing the trophies to the various runners up.

 

They should be made to replace their 5 stars with 5 asterisks too - fits in well

[Cut The Crap]

Also, didn't Ogilvie approach Romanov with this EBT scheme, but he dismissed it as being dodgy?

 

Too dodgy for Vlad (   ), you say? 

 

I don't remember hearing that one before.

[Justin Z]

They should be made to replace their 5 stars with 5 asterisks too - fits in well

 

That's an awesome idea--what do you think?

 

[Jerah Jambo]

celtic fans may want their titles removed, i'm not so sure lawell does, seems to me he has sevco right where he wants them and celtic are a big enough club to absorb the huns cheating, unlike smaller clubs once in their history chance at a trophy, not forgetting the financial strife many clubs got in, over reaching to keep up with the huns.a lot of the smaller clubs that wanted the huns sorted only did it because of fan pressure, the urgency of this meeting may outdo a build up of pressure.many chairmen didn't want the huns punished, many still vote to keep the voting structure in favour of the uglies and the most outspoken and fearless turnbull hutton is no longer with us.

I don't think for a minute that Lawell wants them stripped of their titles but I do think he'll be forced into doing something to appease the more "traditional" members of their support (Green Brigade anyone !!)

 

Remember how he embarrassed both himself and the club after being pressurised into writing his letter to the SFA after the cup semi with ICT. He'll have to be seen to be doing something to ensure Rangers problems don't suddenly become his as well.

[Don Dan]

That's an awesome idea--what do you think?

 

 

 

[emoji780]. [emoji780]. [emoji780]. [emoji780]. [emoji780]

 

 

never mind stars and asterisks their past is questionable.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Tasavallan]

Too dodgy for Vlad (   ), you say? 

 

I don't remember hearing that one before.

IIRC Ogilvie proposed the scheme but there was only a couple of players that earned enough to make it worthwhile so it was eventually dropped..