Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Exactly, Geoff. A lot of people flat out lying to themselves on this thread. It's not just on here either, I know plenty folk in the real world who despise them both in equal measure too. Not just Hearts fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 FF what, if any, are the implications to The Rangers or the game generally if HMRC win the appeal? I can see things getting hot for Murray, MIM and, perhaps, some teams down south who allegedly used EBTs but am I missing something? It should have no impact on the current incarnation of TRFC, but as you say there are wider implications for other clubs and the Murray group. You can also add the embarrassment factor for those who received benefits via EBT's although I don't think that there is a mechanism for the tax to be reclaimed from the individuals. The individual with most to lose out of a severe report could be Campbell Ogilvie, particularly if he is criticised personally by the judge. There will be no "Mr Elgin" alias to hide behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.J Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 It's not just on here either, I know plenty folk in the real world who despise them both in equal measure too. Not just Hearts fans. I'm on the wind up, FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigolo-Aunt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 It should have no impact on the current incarnation of TRFC, but as you say there are wider implications for other clubs and the Murray group. You can also add the embarrassment factor for those who received benefits via EBT's although I don't think that there is a mechanism for the tax to be reclaimed from the individuals. The individual with most to lose out of a severe report could be Campbell Ogilvie, particularly if he is criticised personally by the judge. There will be no "Mr Elgin" alias to hide behind. FF - you know your onions on this and I know you will not be sitting in the court with a wig on, but what's the general feeling on this - will the Taxman win the appeal or will Rangers come through it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigolo-Aunt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I'm on the wind up, FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieholt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) I think this futile discussion can be summed up in the answer to one question. If Celtic played Rangers in a league game which could have no bearing on Hearts, which team would you prefer to win? I can answer, heart on hand, I couldn't give a toss. Oops !!! Edited February 23, 2014 by davieholt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyjamboDerbyshire Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I detested them both equally, too; but now there's just one of them left, so there's nobody to do 'equally' with. Still, there's a new detestable club, run by detestable people, with detestable fans, and should the comedy element they provide fade away, then I'm sure I will detest them at a level without equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I'm on the wind up, FFS. Damnit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Currahee! Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 FF - you know your onions on this and I know you will not be sitting in the court with a wig on, but what's the general feeling on this - will the Taxman win the appeal or will Rangers come through it? I know your question isn't to me but there was a Rangers night in Selkirk a few weeks ago. A few ex players etc. were there and one of my mates who was there told me last night that Paul Murray said it is looking bad regarding the taxman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I'm on the wind up, FFS. :'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigolo-Aunt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I know your question isn't to me but there was a Rangers night in Selkirk a few weeks ago. A few ex players etc. were there and one of my mates who was there told me last night that Paul Murray said it is looking bad regarding the taxman. Cheers man. If it does not go their way - think its game over. However, in the long run it would be a good thing if it gives the Rangers fans a chance to do what we are doing. The more clubs in Scotland who the fans are involved with the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 FF - you know your onions on this and I know you will not be sitting in the court with a wig on, but what's the general feeling on this - will the Taxman win the appeal or will Rangers come through it? The mood music suggests that HMRC will win the appeal, but we also thought that about the original FTT, so there is no point in giving an opinion on the outcome at this stage. Personally, I think the scheme was out and out tax evasion, but I'm not in a position to influence the legal interpretation of how the scheme worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigolo-Aunt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The mood music suggests that HMRC will win the appeal, but we also thought that about the original FTT, so there is no point in giving an opinion on the outcome at this stage. Personally, I think the scheme was out and out tax evasion, but I'm not in a position to influence the legal interpretation of how the scheme worked. Cheers FF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairdin Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Cheers man. If it does not go their way - think its game over. However, in the long run it would be a good thing if it gives the Rangers fans a chance to do what we are doing. The more clubs in Scotland who the fans are involved with the better. I don't think a verdict against Oldco will have any impact at all on the new incarnation working it's way up through the divisions, as it's been accepted they're not a phoenix. As far as I can make out Newco will continue to be a seemingly unsustainable enterprise making cash for Spivs and screwing their normal fans. I don't know how the fans can change this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Cheers man. If it does not go their way - think its game over. However, in the long run it would be a good thing if it gives the Rangers fans a chance to do what we are doing. The more clubs in Scotland who the fans are involved with the better. Hows that, by the looks of things this has nothing to do with der hun in their new clothes, it'll be Murray who will have to carry the can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Currahee! Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Cheers man. If it does not go their way - think its game over. However, in the long run it would be a good thing if it gives the Rangers fans a chance to do what we are doing. The more clubs in Scotland who the fans are involved with the better. Yeah. Game Over. Not 100% guaranteed but he was fearful. The strange thing about it was there was quite a few of my mates there and only 1 mentioned it. Burying their heads in the sand again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 A Murray Group victory would be serious kick in the nether regions for the Rangers fans. CL group stages every 3 years or so and he [Murray] could have stayed and worked to the LBG repayment plan without seriously reducing on field standards. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 A Murray Group victory would be serious kick in the nether regions for the Rangers fans. CL group stages every 3 years or so and he [Murray] could have stayed and worked to the LBG repayment plan without seriously reducing on field standards. . I don't think that would have worked. Rangers were already running a deficit of ?10M a year without CL football. Given that they were emptied out in the qualifying round in 2011, the same ?10M funding gap would have hit Murray as it did Whyte plus the "wee tax case" would have had to be paid. LBG weren't prepared to fund additional loans/overdrafts so I think Administration would have hit them anyway. The Murray group wouldn't have been able to bail them out either as they too were in deep poo with LBG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Robbo Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The mood music suggests that HMRC will win the appeal, but we also thought that about the original FTT, so there is no point in giving an opinion on the outcome at this stage. Personally, I think the scheme was out and out tax evasion, but I'm not in a position to influence the legal interpretation of how the scheme worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Robbo Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) There was a case last year at the Court of Session where a scheme similar to Rangers was found to be tax evasion...if that precedent is followed then HMRC will win... on edit... this... http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/10/23/has-the-court-of-session-today-made-a-decision-which-will-win-hmrc-the-big-tax-case/ Edited February 23, 2014 by Another Robbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussAsia Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I think this futile discussion can be summed up in the answer to one question. If Celtic played Rangers in a league game which could have no bearing on Hearts, which team would you prefer to win? I can answer, heart on hand, I couldn't give a toss. Oops !!! Rangers. In fact if anyone played Celtic in a game that didn't affect Hearts i would want that team to win. The only exception might be Hibs if it was in a cup or could get them into the top 6 or Europe or something. For what it's worth i don't hate Hibs. I just like the fact that their fans have no joy in their life.. I hate Celtic from the board to the fans to the majority (but not all) of the players. But anyway back on topic.. The big tax case will be another anti climax in my opinion.. Like last time we will be told they will lose almost constantly only for them to win legally but be told they lost in reality.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VALDOS Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The appeal is of no real significance in all honesty, HMRC know they cant get money out of it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_hearts65 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Newco will not be financially impacted by this HMRC are after the precedent to get English clubs, some of whom could be in a real mess if they lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEHEART1874 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Nope. Detest them both equally This but maybe if I believed in a man made book I would give a toss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glamorgan Jambo Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The appeal is of no real significance in all honesty, HMRC know they cant get money out of it now. Nonsense. Ignoring the fact that Upper Tier decisions set precedent the biggest fish with the biggest EBT was David Murray with a liability between ?5 and ?10 million. I'm not sure whether HMRC can go after the payments from the player at this point in time. If they can it will be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Sorry but I'm out!!! They both disgust me equally. I would quite honestly rather fist my own Ass, double handed and dry before I admitted any allegiance to either of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Nonsense. Ignoring the fact that Upper Tier decisions set precedent the biggest fish with the biggest EBT was David Murray with a liability between ?5 and ?10 million. I'm not sure whether HMRC can go after the payments from the player at this point in time. If they can it will be interesting. Barry Ferguson will probably blame Craig Whyte if he's to pay his ?2.6m back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Dirty washing like this being aired in an open court. Spivtastic .. Hmfc the team for me ... Who are these people? We've a right to know! They signed Flo. They paid him shitloads. They then gave him even more money in a snide side deal. Some of them still don't understand how the went pop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munch Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 the Spivs who currently run/fleece Sevco will be unafected if the Big Tax Case Appeal goes in favour of HMRC Does anyone know if the can go after any of the directors of the Liquidated now deceased Rangers Football Club ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The numpties that got fleeced with the Spivs "buy a brick" campaign will prob lob them at the Germans when they come to hampden after this now. Check the foundation date.. Ha ha ha... Hmfc the team for me ... Third division 'scottland' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdannyb Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 The ?1.5m has been confirmed this morning as "working capital" which confirms that without the cash they'd be bankrupt again. It's just delaying the inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7628mm Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 The ?1.5m has been confirmed this morning as "working capital" which confirms that without the cash they'd be bankrupt again. It's just delaying the inevitable. So the windfall on Friday becomes working capital on the Monday. I have a feeling that the spivs will be around for a wee while yet and the 2 bus convenors will be the next to be fleeced along with the 23K or more that will likely buy season tickets. I am not sure how many fans bought last season but I think about 38K so my money is on about 15K less fo the next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 So the windfall on Friday becomes working capital on the Monday. I have a feeling that the spivs will be around for a wee while yet and the 2 bus convenors will be the next to be fleeced along with the 23K or more that will likely buy season tickets. I am not sure how many fans bought last season but I think about 38K so my money is on about 15K less fo the next season. That no doubt to be followed by yet another drum banging rabble rousing call to arms for the hard of thinking for yet another share issue to provide Ally with a war chest (or should I say the Spivs final fleecing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieholt Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Interestingly, the BBC says that the loan is to be repaid by September rather than converted to shares - which was the last story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Interestingly, the BBC says that the loan is to be repaid by September rather than converted to shares - which was the last story. Who broke the shares 'good news on Friday? Jackson? Edited February 24, 2014 by DETTY29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=11872699 Rangers International Football Club plc ("Rangers", "RIFC" or the "Company") Credit Facility of ?1.5 million The Board of Rangers is pleased to announce that it has entered into two secured short term credit facilities for an aggregate of up to ?1.5m. The credit facilities are being provided by Alexander Easdale, a shareholder in the Company and director of The Rangers Football Club Limited, the wholly owned subsidiary of RIFC, and Laxey Partners Ltd ("Laxey"), a substantial shareholder in the Company. These credit facilities will be used by the Company for general working capital purposes over the next few months. Alexander Easdale will make available to the Company up to ?500,000 on a fee and interest free basis (the "Easdale Facility"). Laxey will make available to the Company up to ?1 million, with a premium payment equal to 15% of the nominal amount of the facility (the "Laxey Facility"). The Easdale Facility and the Laxey Facility (together the "Facilities") are both secured against the Company's Edmiston House and Albion car park properties. The principal amounts of the Facilities are repayable no later than 1 September 2014 from a variety of potential sources. The premium on the Laxey Facility is payable in cash or, at Laxey's discretion, in ordinary shares of 1p each, at any point between the date of the facility agreement and the first anniversary of the date of the facility agreement. The number of ordinary shares of 1p each which may be issued will be calculated using the lower of either 26.5 pence, being the mid-market closing price of the Company's shares on 21 February 2014, or the lowest price at which any equity fundraising is carried out prior to the first anniversary of the date of the Laxey Facility agreement. The issue of any ordinary shares of 1p each in payment of the premium is subject to the Company obtaining authority from its shareholders at a general meeting of the Company. Under the AIM Rules for Companies, the Laxey Facility is a related party transaction under Rule 13 of the AIM Rules. The Directors of Rangers, having taken advice from their nominated adviser, Daniel Stewart & Company plc, believe that the terms of the Laxey Facility are fair and reasonable as far as shareholders are concerned. ---------------------- It looks like Laxey are looking for a decent return, with a 15% premium on their ?1M investment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 15% for 6 months? Spivtastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Are they trying to guarantee championship football next season to allow a whopping increase in season tickets. The first ?1.65m (excluding Ronnie's - or is it Reggie's cut) has to pay off this facility. The hedge funds and Easdales seem to want their money back and some. Fan ownership would appear a long, long way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortyJambo Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Who broke the shares 'good news on Friday? Jackson? Yep, Jackson. "Windfall" Still dining out on succulent lamb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armageddon Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Jesus, everybody is making a buck out this huge dying cow of a club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fort Vallance Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 That no doubt to be followed by yet another drum banging rabble rousing call to arms for the hard of thinking for yet another share issue to provide Ally with a war chest (or should I say the Spivs final fleecing). I believe Bomber Brown is free at the moment ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo Martin Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 What percentage of share capital would Laxey have if they converted their 1M loan into shares at 1p each? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generic Username Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Pardon my ignorance, but if you're losing around a million a month, surely the last thing you want to do is have another financial responsibility loaded onto you, in the form of around ?200k a month? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdannyb Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 And how exactly are they going to pay it back in September ? Season ticket money ? Oh those poor peepul ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Pardon my ignorance, but if you're losing around a million a month, surely the last thing you want to do is have another financial responsibility loaded onto you, in the form of around ?200k a month? Oh you, and your common sense. Roll on them being completely ###### next season. That will do us nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 And how exactly are they going to pay it back in September ? Season ticket money ? Oh those poor peepul ! expect their season tickets for next season to go on sale very soon. They need this money just to see them through till the start of next season - another share issue on the horizon if I am not much mistaken. I can seen no other way of keeping the corpse going into next season unless a white knight rides to their rescue. It"s going to be interesting to see how many of their punters are going to be taken in by all of this and actually buy season tickets. Something has to give in all of this and it's just a question of when! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7628mm Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 And how exactly are they going to pay it back in September ? Season ticket money ? Oh those poor peepul ! We could start a sweep stake to see who gets closest to the number of Season tickets that they manage to sell to the Orcs down Govan way. Now going by the well known fact that they are not really blessed with the greatest of intelligence I reckon they will be down to about 24K. I reckon for that number of bodies they will probably pull in about ?6,000,000. So that will be 4 months worth of as the BEE GEES said "staying alive". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterion Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) We could start a sweep stake to see who gets closest to the number of Season tickets that they manage to sell to the Orcs down Govan way. Now going by the well known fact that they are not really blessed with the greatest of intelligence I reckon they will be down to about 24K. I reckon for that number of bodies they will probably pull in about ?6,000,000. So that will be 4 months worth of as the BEE GEES said "staying alive". I'm looking forward to them increasing the season ticket prices using the justification of "We're progressing up the leagues and the team needs financial backing" Meanwhile the extra cash pays off whatever VAT/NI Contributions they may have outstanding. I wonder how many lemmings will part with their cash... Edited February 24, 2014 by Mysterion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.T.K Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Anyone got a general feeling how the 'The' Rangers fans are feeling about season ticket renewals and the situation in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zico Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 15%???? 6 month LIBOR is 0.61% - some "windfall" that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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