Darren Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 A report about bigotry / sectarianism and bbc "scotland" contrive to show no recordings of either OF fans at an SPL fixture, whether against each other or us for that matter. Nope, let's show 10,000 of the losers at some irrelevant under 19's game as opposed to hearing the fenian / ira stuff in it's full 50k-60k glory at home or 3k tanked-up jakeys at away fixtures (although interesting celtic fans were still lettng off smoke-bombs) I think, or at least hope, that the point being made was that sectarianism occurs at even at an "irrelevant under 19's game" involving the Old Firm. Having said that, I am in no way defending what as an abysmal product of investigative journalism. What BBC Scotland was expecting to achieve on a clearly tiny budget and in 28 minutes is beyond me. The stuff from Tynecastle was, as others have pointed out, particularly poor. It smacked of feeling that they had to gather some footage from elsewhere to be objective and just sticking it at the end. It felt like watching Sportscene in that sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Treasurer Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I never watched but recorded it to watch at a later date. Thanks to all for saving me wasting 30 minutes of my life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim747 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Can't deny it happens (but they will) when their own fans record it, especially around the 2.25 minute mark, oh and nice account signature... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-3o7TWOujs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homme Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 That truly was awful. Not as harsh on Hearts as i thought it'd be though. I could have had an early night too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Macaroons Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Apart from the three clubs mentioned, name another club which sings sectarian songs? Partick Thistle ...and they're the worst They sing F the Pope AND F the Queen. Also what was that misguided Celtic fan doing trying to skive in the TA's back door?.......well guarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut The Crap Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Given who we were playing and all the rest that was going on around it, the rendition of that song was actually fairly pathetic at our match. I'm encouraged that we could quite easily stamp it out altogether if we really tried. Of course, the one thing the programme did illustrate is that no one in Scotland is really trying all that hard to stamp it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy T Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Truly the most uninformed programme and waste of tax payers money BBC Scotland have ever produced. Quote of the programme "the celtic fans also sang songs but we didn't get it on film"......HOW??? I could hear it from the opposite end of the wheatfield !! Then we get the usual Celtic and Rangers fans - its your fault no it yours, we sing cause you sing blah blah and to top it of the Celtic fan claims they have no anti-protestant agenda.....please spare me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownkg Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Can't deny it happens (but they will) when their own fans record it, especially around the 2.25 minute mark, oh and nice account signature... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-3o7TWOujs It seems to me that 1 hour spent on youtube could have produced better clips than were shown on the programme last night but Reevell is probably older tnan me and could be a techonphobe . As said elsewhere the BBc are not really serious about tackling the issue and upsetting their audience. they also had time to include Pat Nevin's comments from the weekend too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasavallan Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Bigotry? This old queen has a lot to do with igniting it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest juvehearts Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 anyone could do better than that montage of bile off youtube, ask for an interview with some of the top parliamentary msp's, chief of police & a cardinal. get two of the thickest weegies that support the OF & bang you have a show what was wrong with doing a live Q & A like question time on the subject, open the doors to the public & either do it on Radio or TV BBC - Not fit for purpose in the 21st cenntury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambokev Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 This is so annoying, Hearts problem is a handful of fans who sings these songs, without even knowing their origin or meaning. Its not our fault they aint the sharpest knife in the drawer. The difference with us and "them", is our fans do it purely to get under the skin, the uglies have genuine bigoted hatred flowing through their buckfast laden veins. Should not take much for us to stamp out the unneccessary songs, but keep the passion. Spot on Jim, if the "undercover reporters" had been at Tynie when we played St Mirren they would have had a wasted journey.The very fact it was Celtic in the current climate meant they would have rich pickings from our minority support ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF11JamTart Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 If I hear one more Celtic fan say word to effect of... "Well, you need to understnd that our songs are anthems of political protest... so that's different" I think I will blow a gasket. Anyway, the ONE thing that show was good for, IMO, was clarifying that "grown-ups" really ought to think carefully before they wear replica shirts (ref: a different thread) (age: 38. Weight: 13 stone. Probably should only wear replica shirts whilst playing 5s or running or cycling). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Noticed the stats about banning orders from Rangers and Celtic on the news ( I didn't watch the pish programme because I knew it would be utter tripe) and it is just astounding that not one journalist has decided to run with the 6 fans banned in the last 2/3 years by Celtic. The fact that no-one's willing to will just cement this delusion into the minds of the Celtic fans and probably the board as well that they haven't got a problem. Scottish football needs to toughen up against this shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 tried watching it this morning. i had to stop after fifteen minutes it was so poor. The only thing i will add is that i enjoyed jack mcconnell rallying against discrimination. perhaps best not to mention some of the hiring practices of the company his wife runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF11JamTart Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Noticed the stats about banning orders from Rangers and Celtic on the news ( I didn't watch the pish programme because I knew it would be utter tripe) and it is just astounding that not one journalist has decided to run with the 6 fans banned in the last 2/3 years by Celtic. The fact that no-one's willing to will just cement this delusion into the minds of the Celtic fans and probably the board as well that they haven't got a problem. Scottish football needs to toughen up against this shite. 6 people banned out of 6 million through the turnstyles. Anyway, well done on not wasting 28minutes of your life watching that amateurish pish. That sounds critical of the programme makers, but they clearly had about tuppence to cobble something together, presumably with the remit for it not to be solely Old Firm centric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexton Hardcastle Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13453418 30 minutes down to 130 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaroon Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 It smacked of "School sixth form project". Certainly not a piece of investigative journalism in the vein of a Pilger or a Paul Foot. Unless scratching the surface is the yardstick of BBC Scotland these days. That is a gross insult on school journalism projects! It was, quite simply, pathetic. On such a huge issue, they cobbled together a really pathetic programme that should be sued for misrepresentation as they claimed it was investigative! I have seen better projects from schools! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 BBC Scotland is not fit for purpose! It is the most amateurish (apologies to all amateurs) cringeworthy stuff! And wee Eck Salmond wants to give it greater (Scottish) editorial freedum!!! Why Eck so it comes out wit even more garbage like this, the 6:30 news, newsnight Scotland and worst of all Chaver City? It's so glasgowcentric the bbc up here that it's beyond a joke. What other country has no TV media based in it's Capital city? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD_JAMBO Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 the bbc r shite whats the point of them i wish they would just scrap the bbc and make a new football highlights spl show on sky like they used 2 have on setanta and goals on sunday is better than motd anyway so there u go no need 4 bbc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasavallan Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 CELTIC FOOTBALL CLUB "The recent sustained level of threats and acts of violence against our manager and others associated with Celtic has been unprecedented in Scottish football. Clearly, this must stop. In a modern Scottish society there can be no excuse for threats, acts of violence and other behaviour which glorifies sectarianism. We are sure all right-minded people will condemn these actions. We are also aware that a small minority associated with Celtic continue to tarnish the club's name through offensive political chanting at away grounds. As a non-political organisation, open to all since its formation in 1888, we stand firmly against this kind of behaviour and will continue to tackle this form of conduct which is unacceptable and has no place in football. Given all that has happened this year, prior to the beginning of the new season, Celtic will be seeking to meet all relevant parties within the Scottish game to ensure that we can work together in addressing the issues of offensive behaviour and sectarianism." I wonder which ex-politician Celtic got to write this statement? The bottom line is that they will do nothing. As my granny used to say "fine words butter no parsnips" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adi Dassler Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Unfortunately some of them would take it as a compliment. On the program I really hope our fans are shown up to be the bigotted dinosaurs they really are. I don't give a flying one that we are only being included in this to avoid it being totally against the old firm; if we didn't have bigotted fans singing bigotted songs then we wouldn't be in this story You must have been absolutely devastated last night mate. Shame that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7628mm Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 tried watching it this morning. i had to stop after fifteen minutes it was so poor. The only thing i will add is that i enjoyed jack mcconnell rallying against discrimination. perhaps best not to mention some of the hiring practices of the company his wife runs. I know nothing about his wifes company but would ask the following questions. Does it in any way involve the time honoured Scottish question. What school did you go to? If it starts with a ST. you are in, if not you are not, so to speak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego10 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I know nothing about his wifes company but would ask the following questions. Does it in any way involve the time honoured Scottish question. What school did you go to? If it starts with a ST. you are in, if not you are not, so to speak? good news for Stenhouse Primary alumni if so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboRossi79 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 That is a quite outrageous statistic. And one that says everything about the Celtic viewpoint. Much as I dislike Rangers at least they have paid more than lipservice to it. I believe that Rankgers have a far bigger sectarian problem than Celtic do. How many times have Celtic been pulled up by UEFA for sectarian singing ? How many times have Rankgers ? How many awards have the Rankgers fans received from UEFA ? How many times have Celtic fans gone on the rampage in cities and acted like utter animals ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I believe that Rankgers have a far bigger sectarian problem than Celtic do. How many times have Celtic been pulled up by UEFA for sectarian singing ? How many times have Rankgers ? How many awards have the Rankgers fans received from UEFA ? How many times have Celtic fans gone on the rampage in cities and acted like utter animals ? Not sure how tongue in cheek this is (I suspect not at all) but surely it's naive in the extreme to suggest that out of 6 million people through the Celtic turnstiles that only 6 fans have sung offensive, sectarian songs and are deserving of a ban. Celtic's problem is not 1 in a million as much as I'm sure they're loving that it is being portrayed in this way and no-one is taking them to task on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 6 people banned out of 6 million through the turnstyles. Anyway, well done on not wasting 28minutes of your life watching that amateurish pish. That sounds critical of the programme makers, but they clearly had about tuppence to cobble something together, presumably with the remit for it not to be solely Old Firm centric. ... while of course they flew a film crew to Lithuania for the big exposure that Vlad's companies legally avoid paying tax where they can, like every company does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homme Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I believe that Rankgers have a far bigger sectarian problem than Celtic do. How many times have Celtic been pulled up by UEFA for sectarian singing ? How many times have Rankgers ? How many awards have the Rankgers fans received from UEFA ? How many times have Celtic fans gone on the rampage in cities and acted like utter animals ? How many respective games have each played since UEFA started clamping down on it? Rangers have played much more European games in the past few seasons than celtic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I know nothing about his wifes company but would ask the following questions. Does it in any way involve the time honoured Scottish question. What school did you go to? If it starts with a ST. you are in, if not you are not, so to speak? it's a publicly funded company. it's not quite as cut and dry as all that but there's a clear policy of discrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
269miles Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 They could have asked any of them, and that is the response they would have got. They don't consider anything they say or do as anti any other religion, it is all to do with politics. The thing is they seem to fail to understand the whole concept of the Republican movement, which was driven on two fronts, one political, one paramilitary. They need to go back through time and read or re-read some of the statements made by Gerry Adams, for example, before classing PIRA as political, because he certainly didn't. He made the clear distinction between Sinn Fein and PIRA, and I'll leave you to work out which he classed as political and which he classed as paramilitary. As PJ corrctly points out there is a world of difference. IRA = banned terrorist organisiation. They are NOT a politcial organisiation. Sinn Fien = the political wing of the IRA. It was quite common in the 1980s (ie my time in visiting Parkhead) to see collection tins being rattled outside the ground. For Celtic fans to say their singing is 'political' simply shows their complete ignorance of the IRA/Sinn Fein split. Having said that , I believe it's long overdue for Hearts to tell Celtic and SFA/SPL that this offensive behaviour will not be tolerated and unless there is a significant improvement Hearts will start cutting the ticket allocation , if necessary , to the point no Celtic 'fans' will be allowed at Tynecastle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest juvehearts Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 i think thats whats going to HAVE to happen, as a ST holder i dont want to be subjected to that bile again over the cource of 90 minutes, at the end of the day they ( celtic ) are gloryfying terrisom & under the letter of the law that is illegal, political or not the ira are a banned terrorist group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billco98 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I am not saying Hearts fans are whiter than white as we are clearly not (e.g. Edinburgh is wonderful, Paedophile-ditties, one-eyed players, etc) I am saying I'm not looking across our city for best-practices as they have their own brand of tackiness as do we. Anyway, having now watched the programme - what a load of pesh! A report about bigotry / sectarianism and bbc "scotland" contrive to show no recordings of either OF fans at an SPL fixture, whether against each other or us for that matter. Nope, let's show 10,000 of the losers at some irrelevant under 19's game as opposed to hearing the fenian / ira stuff in it's full 50k-60k glory at home or 3k tanked-up jakeys at away fixtures (although interesting celtic fans were still lettng off smoke-bombs) They playback a watery rendition of "fenian-blood" at Tynie and state they have no recording of the IRA chanting although they did hear it.. Seriously??? That was the best programme you could make on the issue? Somehow, the only guy who may be sweating after the programme was attempting to extinguish his fag on some tic's top - not really what the programme was about though, was it? This should have perhaps been given to the real BBC for credibility as that was awful...or alternatively, just don't bother in future, eh. Yes, and why was Pat Nevin, who as a football pundit with the BBC attended the game and gave an eye witness account of '90 minutes of pro IRA bile from the Celtic end' on Sportscene the other night, not called on to contribute to the programme? I couldn't believe my ears when Reevil Alderson said 'one of their reporters had heard "a" sectarian song from the Celtic end during the match'. The weegie control of BBC Scotland demonstrated in one sentence. An absolutely dire performance from our only public service broadcaster. The sooner Wee Eck get's his Scottish digital broadcasting service into play the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C00l K1d Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Wonder what vlad will have to say about journos going undercover to make us look bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo Drifter Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Morph - good question and there's the rub. The Celtic songs aren't considered sectarian, at least in the eyes of the law, because they are essentially making political points. Reeval Alderson said in the programme last night that the Billy Boys was an illegal song. Not to my knowledge as there has been no legal test case under the Criminal Justic (Scotland) Act, unlike with the Famine Song which has been decreed racist in a court of law under the same statute. All the Billy Boys song can be shown to be is offensive and likely to get Rangers (and us?) fined by UEFA. Anyway the question of what is or isn't a sectarian song is a little bogus. Celtic deploy the "We don't hate Protestants, the songs are political" card which just about gets them off the hook but that doesn't alter the fact that their songs are unacceptable in a football ground. Neil Lennon, to his credit, made this point in his statement on the Celtic website earlier this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim747 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 CELTIC FOOTBALL CLUB "The recent sustained level of threats and acts of violence against our manager and others associated with Celtic has been unprecedented in Scottish football. Clearly, this must stop. In a modern Scottish society there can be no excuse for threats, acts of violence and other behaviour which glorifies sectarianism. We are sure all right-minded people will condemn these actions. We are also aware that a small minority associated with Celtic continue to tarnish the club's name through offensive political chanting at away grounds. As a non-political organisation, open to all since its formation in 1888, we stand firmly against this kind of behaviour and will continue to tackle this form of conduct which is unacceptable and has no place in football. Given all that has happened this year, prior to the beginning of the new season, Celtic will be seeking to meet all relevant parties within the Scottish game to ensure that we can work together in addressing the issues of offensive behaviour and sectarianism." I wonder which ex-politician Celtic got to write this statement? The bottom line is that they will do nothing. As my granny used to say "fine words butter no parsnips" Look no further than their chairman, John Reid MP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego10 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 As PJ corrctly points out there is a world of difference. IRA = banned terrorist organisiation. They are NOT a politcial organisiation. Sinn Fien = the political wing of the IRA. It was quite common in the 1980s (ie my time in visiting Parkhead) to see collection tins being rattled outside the ground. For Celtic fans to say their singing is 'political' simply shows their complete ignorance of the IRA/Sinn Fein split. Having said that , I believe it's long overdue for Hearts to tell Celtic and SFA/SPL that this offensive behaviour will not be tolerated and unless there is a significant improvement Hearts will start cutting the ticket allocation , if necessary , to the point no Celtic 'fans' will be allowed at Tynecastle. Their argument (which is completely subverted by the reality of Provo chants) is that songs such as Boys of the Old Brigade are celebrating the original IRA, who they regard as a legitimate resistance force against the occupying Brits. Whether you buy that argument or not, the problem is that due to add-ons and the perception of everyone else, then any IRA songs have no place in Scottish football imo. We do need to differentiate between rebel songs and something like the fields of athenry, which, although it is offensive to my ears as a maudlin dirge, is not in any way an offensive song but is widely booed, mainly for being Irish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C00l K1d Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Their argument (which is completely subverted by the reality of Provo chants) is that songs such as Boys of the Old Brigade are celebrating the original IRA, who they regard as a legitimate resistance force against the occupying Brits. Whether you buy that argument or not, the problem is that due to add-ons and the perception of everyone else, then any IRA songs have no place in Scottish football imo. We do need to differentiate between rebel songs and something like the fields of athenry, which, although it is offensive to my ears as a maudlin dirge, is not in any way an offensive song but is widely booed, mainly for being Irish. They sing PIRA though, not about the original IRA. So it's even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambopompey Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Doncaster should be sacked. How can we move away from the caveman era when the men at the top do nothing? The police fail to act and as for the politicians!! The numbers banned by clubs is tiny compared to the problem and shows that leaving it to them doesn't work either. What's the answer? To me Hearts must act firmly and use undercover staff to root out ringleaders before we can start going to uefa to complain about the old firm. this was a good chance for doncaster to step up and come out with some new rules of conduct. lets start with giving all clubs a list of songs not permitted, chants or banners, any breaking of the rules starts of with a fine, next time closure of part of their ground, third a points deduction, or a series of punishments leading up to docking of points. Use a sliding scale for some of the punishments handed out, if it is a few folk then the fine is not as bad, any repeat of the offense then a larger is handed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexton Hardcastle Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Sorry if already posted.. But how fecking harsh. http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/3588686/Postman-Prat-student-Lee-Dunlop-is-charged.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Say What Again Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 First I've seen it Paddy. That's way over the top. The boy has dressed as Postman Pat at a student bash, marked a box for delivery to Neil Lennon as a joke with his Celtic mates, and he's been charged with a sectarian breach of the peace and faces being kicked out of Uni? I hope the University sees sense (which I doubt) or for the sake of a fancy dress outfit, the boys life has taken a fair setback before it's really began. Kicked out of Uni and a criminal record for sectarianism. For dressing up as Postman Pat at a student party? That's a ******* disgrace. Meanwhile, thousands sing sectarian songs at football matches, within inches of police, yet nothing is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eckauskas Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 You'd have to be an utter bellend to report that kinda thing to the police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambopompey Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 You'd have to be an utter bellend to report that kinda thing to the police. that will be the selic way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Sexington Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Sorry if already posted.. But how fecking harsh. http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/3588686/Postman-Prat-student-Lee-Dunlop-is-charged.html FFS!! The world's gone mad. As for the clipey curtain twitcher that phoned the police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 The guy who reported himself has unmasked himself on facebook and judging by the response on facebook he's not going to have a particularly enjoyable final 2 years at uni. Particularly when his page is littered with bigotry and racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Wiseau Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 That is an utter joke FFS. Night in the cells and losing his education? **** right off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjl Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 That is an utter joke FFS. Night in the cells and losing his education? **** right off. It's also one of the funniest fancy dress costumes i've ever seen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diadora Van Basten Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I think if alex salmond is wanting to stop bigotry the first thing that needs to be established is are ira songs sectarian? I think they are but Celtic fans do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Wiseau Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 It's also one of the funniest fancy dress costumes i've ever seen It made me chuckle anaw. Night in the cells for us I presume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANT Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 It was ok for celtic fans to dress up as pizza delivery drivers, After them poor soldiers got shot. As my old man used to say, Dont dish it out, If you cant take it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjl Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 It made me chuckle anaw. Night in the cells for us I presume? Sectarian chuckling 6 months minimum I'm afraid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Say What Again Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Sectarian chuckling 6 months minimum I'm afraid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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