Well Done China...

[Meadows]

Caught a man smuggling heroin , and executed hinny shooting him. ( the country not the shopkeeper)

they didn't believe his illness excuses as Britain would have before giving him 2 years in the jail.

No doubt some on here will disagree, however this serves as a warning and protects countless people from entering the murky world of drugs.

[redjambo]

Caught a man smuggling heroin , and executed hinny shooting him. ( the country not the shopkeeper)

they didn't believe his illness excuses as Britain would have before giving him 2 years in the jail.

No doubt some on here will disagree, however this serves as a warning and protects countless people from entering the murky world of drugs.

 

I'd have to disagree due to two reasons. Firstly I'm against capital punishment (from a moral viewpoint, because mistakes happen, and also because contrary to your opinion, studies have shown that capital punishment makes no difference to crime rates).

 

Secondly I believe that drugs should be decriminalised, with the proviso that adequate structures should be set up to inform people of the (realistic) potential dangers and also to help those who want to give them up but have difficulty doing so.

 

I would also argue that you are incorrect about the "2 years" and that mental illness should always be taken into account because it does make people act irrationally. However I'm not feeling very eloquent today so will leave that to others. I'm just sad that someone has lost their life, after ostensibly having been taken advantage of.

[Seats]

This is an interesting situation. Whilst I completely support China's right to execute drug smugglers, this particular case does raise some questions for me - mostly about the family and the involvement of the British authorities.

 

According to reports this guy was "living" homeless in Poland where he was picked up by a couple of guys who persuaded him to go to China. Where were his family then? All well and good for them to come out the woodwork now, but too little too late isn't it? If he was that ill, why didn't the UK authorities do something about it whilst he was in the UK? He worked as a taxi manager at some point so I would suggest that he wasn't that ill that he didn't know what he was doing! Sounds to me like they are coming up with this "illness" after the event, although the story that he was going to record a single does make him sound a bit mental!

[Eric Shin]

I'd have to disagree due to two reasons. Firstly I'm against capital punishment (from a moral viewpoint, because mistakes happen, and also because contrary to your opinion, studies have shown that capital punishment makes no difference to crime rates).

 

Secondly I believe that drugs should be decriminalised, with the proviso that adequate structures should be set up to inform people of the (realistic) potential dangers and also to help those who want to give them up but have difficulty doing so.

 

I would also argue that you are incorrect about the "2 years" and that mental illness should always be taken into account because it does make people act irrationally. However I'm not feeling very eloquent today so will leave that to others. I'm just sad that someone has lost their life, after ostensibly having been taken advantage of.

 

 

 

Im with the op on this one, they know the risks, it wont deter , but at least its one less person to smuggle drugs. Kill them all

[Meadows]

No disrespect to Red, but too many families have been blighted by Heroin whilst dealers count their money...wonder what the bleedin heart liberals would say if their son/daughter were injecting this.

[Sterling Archer]

I'd have to disagree due to two reasons. Firstly I'm against capital punishment (from a moral viewpoint, because mistakes happen, and also because contrary to your opinion, studies have shown that capital punishment makes no difference to crime rates).

 

Secondly I believe that drugs should be decriminalised, with the proviso that adequate structures should be set up to inform people of the (realistic) potential dangers and also to help those who want to give them up but have difficulty doing so.

 

I would also argue that you are incorrect about the "2 years" and that mental illness should always be taken into account because it does make people act irrationally. However I'm not feeling very eloquent today so will leave that to others. I'm just sad that someone has lost their life, after ostensibly having been taken advantage of.

 

I agree with the bit in bold but not for your reasons. Legalise, and then tax the **** out of them. It would reduce drug related crime and remove the need for drug dealers. It's no different to alcoholics or smokers getting their fix legally and the more of them that od the less we have to pay our taxes to look after.

[redjambo]

No disrespect to Red, but too many families have been blighted by Heroin whilst dealers count their money...wonder what the bleedin heart liberals would say if their son/daughter were injecting this.

 

Thanks Meadows, and I see your point. I kind of see it as an un-winnable battle the way it is though. There's simply too much crime and too many deaths related to the drugs trade. If the trade is not going to go away, no matter how many resources we throw at it (which is certainly the way it looks), we're going to have to find some way to make sure that the damage is minimised. If that involves measures like handing out free methadone or legitimising the supply channels for drugs then I think it would be worth a shot.

[redjambo]

Im with the op on this one, they know the risks, it wont deter , but at least its one less person to smuggle drugs. Kill them all

 

In the same way that if you're overrun with ants, killing one of them will make a difference. Better to find other, more effective, ways of keeping the ants away.

[blondejamtart]

OK, so if you're in favour of the death penalty for drug smugglers or dealers, why not for the users too? Aren't they just as culpable? If there was no demand...

[flecktimus]

In the same way that if you're overrun with ants, killing one of them will make a difference. Better to find other, more effective, ways of keeping the ants away.

 

I am a 100% with you on the legalisation of drugs.

[Le Chat]

Thanks Meadows, and I see your point. I kind of see it as an un-winnable battle the way it is though. There's simply too much crime and too many deaths related to the drugs trade. If the trade is not going to go away, no matter how many resources we throw at it (which is certainly the way it looks), we're going to have to find some way to make sure that the damage is minimised. If that involves measures like handing out free methadone or legitimising the supply channels for drugs then I think it would be worth a shot.

 

We're not throwing any resources at it mate. That's half the problem.

[kitster]

I dont agree with legalising drugs at all...but this case is quite heart wrenching...he was weak, vulnerable and had no idea what he was doing. It's a bit like McKinnon being extradited to rot the States when they could have used him to counter terrorism. Just wrong.

[redjambo]

We're not throwing any resources at it mate. That's half the problem.

 

You jest, no? The US, who are the lead country in the fight against drugs, spent about $50bn on the "war on drugs" this year, and have spent hundreds of billions over the years on specific programs in places like Colombia. The result? In general, studies have shown that all this money is just going down the drain, no reduction in end use being achieved. The "war" in its current form is unwinnable. We need to start thinking differently about how to address the problem.

[davemclaren]

The issue here is his mental state at the time of the offence. If he was incapable of making a rational decision due to his apparent illness then, in my view, he should not have been convicted, far less executed.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I agree with the bit in bold but not for your reasons. Legalise, and then tax the **** out of them. It would reduce drug related crime and remove the need for drug dealers. It's no different to alcoholics or smokers getting their fix legally and the more of them that od the less we have to pay our taxes to look after.

 

Spot on

[Seats]

I agree with the bit in bold but not for your reasons. Legalise, and then tax the **** out of them. It would reduce drug related crime and remove the need for drug dealers. It's no different to alcoholics or smokers getting their fix legally and the more of them that od the less we have to pay our taxes to look after.

 

In my opinion this will not prevent "our children" from falling down the path to addiction, nor will it solve the possibly wider problem of drug related crime i.e. addicts commiting crime to fund their habit. So whilst it might allow a bit more control and ensure a certain quality of drug, it will not resolve the wider issues to society. In my opinion of course.

[polwarthjambo]

OK, so if you're in favour of the death penalty for drug smugglers or dealers, why not for the users too? Aren't they just as culpable? If there was no demand...

 

anthrax?

[Someday]

The issue here is his mental state at the time of the offence. If he was incapable of making a rational decision due to his apparent illness then, in my view, he should not have been convicted, far less executed.

 

There is no record of the deceased ever even having consulted a medical practitioner about his mental health, never mind having been diagnosed or treated.

 

I disagree with capital punishment, however China does and they have by all accounts acted within their legislation.

[kitster]

There is no record of the deceased ever even having consulted a medical practitioner about his mental health, never mind having been diagnosed or treated.

 

I disagree with capital punishment, however China does and they have by all accounts acted within their legislation.

 

So they were right in doing so??

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

A lot of interesting side-issues here on (a) drugs legislation, ( sovereign rights of countries and © capital punishment.

 

On (a), I'm pro legalisation - the reason society doesn't ban alcohol and tobacco is their widespread social acceptability. I believe hard drugs such as heroin should be available in a controlled environment, as they were prior to the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. The methadone programme has been a complete disaster to that regard. As for things like Ecstasy, if people want to drop a pill, sweat a lot and hug random folk, that is their concern.

 

It would also be a nice tax earner for governments.

 

On (, China has the right to impose a death penalty if it sees fit. What is interesting though is that China has the balls to say "****** you" to the UK and hang any consequences over a diplomatic incident. It shows the relative standing of the countries in the world. Do I think a death penalty for this crime is excessive? Yes. However, it will be conveniently forgotten by the UK government by tomorrow.

 

On ©, I would be prepared to allow capital punishment on the statute book for the most extreme of cases and where the evidence is damning. Ian Huntley, for example, should not be breathing. However, life truly meaning life would probably be an acceptable compromise.

[Deek]

A lot of interesting side-issues here on (a) drugs legislation, ( sovereign rights of countries and © capital punishment.

 

A) I think that will happen, but not before a lot of teeth gnashing. The potential savings to the government could be huge. Plus many people would not die from overdosing on substances they have no idea what they contain.

 

Whether you disagree or not China has the sovereign right make their own laws and punishments. I have no idea as to the extent of Akmal Shaikh's mental capacity, so have no idea, if he knew the consequences of smuggling heroin into China or not. And I mean the consequences both to himself and the end user of the drug. 4 Kilo's stamped on twice could give you 160,000 individual deals. How many deaths could have came out of that?

 

C) I will sit on the fence on this one. There are many pro's and cons.

[Sterling Archer]

A lot of interesting side-issues here on (a) drugs legislation, ( sovereign rights of countries and © capital punishment.

 

On (a), I'm pro legalisation - the reason society doesn't ban alcohol and tobacco is their widespread social acceptability. I believe hard drugs such as heroin should be available in a controlled environment, as they were prior to the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. The methadone programme has been a complete disaster to that regard. As for things like Ecstasy, if people want to drop a pill, sweat a lot and hug random folk, that is their concern.

 

It would also be a nice tax earner for governments.

 

On (, China has the right to impose a death penalty if it sees fit. What is interesting though is that China has the balls to say "****** you" to the UK and hang any consequences over a diplomatic incident. It shows the relative standing of the countries in the world. Do I think a death penalty for this crime is excessive? Yes. However, it will be conveniently forgotten by the UK government by tomorrow.

 

On ©, I would be prepared to allow capital punishment on the statute book for the most extreme of cases and where the evidence is damning. Ian Huntley, for example, should not be breathing. However, life truly meaning life would probably be an acceptable compromise.

 

One of my biggest problems with the current justice system

[shaun.lawson]

Akmal Shaikh's trial lasted half an hour. Half an hour to decide he was guilty; half an hour to ignore China's own supposed laws on sentencing mentally ill individuals; half an hour to sentence him to death. The British government made 27 subsequent attempts to persuade China to back down: all submissions detailing his mental health problems were ignored.

 

This is a man who trafficked drugs into the country because he thought the money would make him an international pop star. It's also someone who recorded a pop song because he thought it would bring about world peace. To say he was delusional is to put it mildly.

 

For the crime of being delusional and suffering from bipolar disorder, he's been murdered by the Chinese state. On Christmas Day, after a trial lasting two hours, a Chinese dissident was imprisoned for eleven years for the crime of promoting democracy. Scores of Chinese people are murdered or imprisoned every year after similar summary trials.

 

Sorry, but I have no interest in empathising with or justifying a regime which has zero regard for basic human rights. In this country, the trial of someone charged with driving without due care or attention lasts longer than half an hour. But hey, go China eh: they don't take any **** from anyone! I can't wait til they're as or more powerful than the US: that'd be brilliant news for the world we live in...

[Seats]

Akmal Shaikh's trial lasted half an hour. Half an hour to decide he was guilty; half an hour to ignore China's own supposed laws on sentencing mentally ill individuals; half an hour to sentence him to death. The British government made 27 subsequent attempts to persuade China to back down: all submissions detailing his mental health problems were ignored.

 

This is a man who trafficked drugs into the country because he thought the money would make him an international pop star. It's also someone who recorded a pop song because he thought it would bring about world peace. To say he was delusional is to put it mildly.

 

For the crime of being delusional and suffering from bipolar disorder, he's been murdered by the Chinese state. On Christmas Day, after a trial lasting two hours, a Chinese dissident was imprisoned for eleven years for the crime of promoting democracy. Scores of Chinese people are murdered or imprisoned every year after similar summary trials.

 

Sorry, but I have no interest in empathising with or justifying a regime which has zero regard for basic human rights. In this country, the trial of someone charged with driving without due care or attention lasts longer than half an hour. But hey, go China eh: they don't take any **** from anyone! I can't wait til they're as or more powerful than the US: that'd be brilliant news for the world we live in...

 

Actually, he has been executed for the crime of trafficking 4kg of cocaine. There has been no record of this guy having mental health problems (that have come up yet) and he was responsible enough to hold down a job in the past. If he was then suffering mental health issues, where were all the bleeding heart liberalls then?

 

No-one is saying China has a great human rights record, but I am not willing to say they were wrong on this occasion, because I am not convinced this "mental health" story is the truth.

[stevie]

While i agree with capital punishment for the severest of crimes,the fact that it is China we are talking about makes this execution look a "bit dodgy".A world wide refusal to import their cheap merchandise would sort the busterds out.

[shaun.lawson]

Actually, he has been executed for the crime of trafficking 4kg of cocaine. There has been no record of this guy having mental health problems (that have come up yet) and he was responsible enough to hold down a job in the past. If he was then suffering mental health issues, where were all the bleeding heart liberalls then?

 

No-one is saying China has a great human rights record, but I am not willing to say they were wrong on this occasion, because I am not convinced this "mental health" story is the truth.

 

When it comes to someone being executed after a trial lasting half an hour, I am.

[Meadows]

Immaterial of China's record on Human rights i still agree with this, and for every 100 they execute if one has a dodgy mental state,.Shame .

Thailand jails people in the infamous Bangkok Hilton for 30-50 years and STILL people try to smuggle drugs. We jail them for 3/4/5 years , educate them on courses ,give them a house upon release and assist with employment. the re-offending rates are huge!

Methinks this bipolar guy wont re-offend.

[Gorgiewave]

When it comes to someone being executed after a trial lasting half an hour, I am.

 

I'm entirely with Shuan on this. The right to a fair trial is as basic a right as there can be.

 

Confucious - - has got a lot to answer for.

[Gorgiewave]

Immaterial of China's record on Human rights i still agree with this, and for every 100 they execute if one has a dodgy mental state,.Shame .

Thailand jails people in the infamous Bangkok Hilton for 30-50 years and STILL people try to smuggle drugs. We jail them for 3/4/5 years , educate them on courses ,give them a house upon release and assist with employment. the re-offending rates are huge!

Methinks this bipolar guy wont re-offend.

 

 

Does it offend you? Or do you just prefer rotund, brainless condescension?

[Zerothehero]

You can be Bipolar and lead a seemingly ordinary and productive life. It's impossible to determine the guy's mental state when he did what he did.

 

So we can't really say one way or the other but it doesn't feel right to me at all. It's feels quite barbaric.

[The Comedian]

When it comes to someone being executed after a trial lasting half an hour, I am.

 

Do you think he knew he was carrying out a crime? I reckon he did. It seems to me he was only 'mental' after he'd been caught.

 

He's committed a serious crime and has been dealt with in the harshest possible terms. Too many lily-livers greeting about a convicted drug trafficker getting removed from our streets IMO.

[Ron Burgundy]

While i agree with capital punishment for the severest of crimes,the fact that it is China we are talking about makes this execution look a "bit dodgy".A world wide refusal to import their cheap merchandise would sort the busterds out.[/QUOTE]

 

 

I'm gonna change the habit of a lifetime and have an Indian this Friday as a protest.

[Gorgiewave]

Do you think he knew he was carrying out a crime? I reckon he did. It seems to me he was only 'mental' after he'd been caught.

 

He's committed a serious crime and has been dealt with in the harshest possible terms. Too many lily-livers greeting about a convicted drug trafficker getting removed from our streets IMO.

 

I take it your location, "Huh?" is a wee village near Shanghai?

[shaun.lawson]

Do you think he knew he was carrying out a crime? I reckon he did. It seems to me he was only 'mental' after he'd been caught.

 

He's committed a serious crime and has been dealt with in the harshest possible terms. Too many lily-livers greeting about a convicted drug trafficker getting removed from our streets IMO.

 

I'm unconvinced he knew the difference between right and wrong at all times; and what happens with bipolar disorder is that many sufferers' behaviour is plainly affected in quite extreme ways. Did the Chinese authorities make any attempt at all to assess this? A trial lasting half an hour says quite the opposite.

[Gorgiewave]

I'm unconvinced he knew the difference between right and wrong at all times; and what happens with bipolar disorder is that many sufferers' behaviour is plainly affected in quite extreme ways. Did the Chinese authorities make any attempt at all to assess this? A trial lasting half an hour says quite the opposite.

 

 

What is it with your connectedness Shaun? You often appear as not connected (no flaming computer screen) and then another 10 pearls appear.

[The Comedian]

I take it your location, "Huh?" is a wee village near Shanghai?

 

Yeah.

 

He was from London, he won't be back to re-offend will he.

[Meadows]

Does it offend you? Or do you just prefer rotund, brainless condescension?

 

It was a tongue in cheek,flippant point.Flippant but accurate....

[Andy.C]

It is a really divisive story this one. I agree China has the right to try and execute people under their legislation...it is there in black and white. And it seems awfully late in the day that people are using the 'mental disorder' line for him now...where were these people from the get go?

 

That being said, from the way the story is presented here, it seems very clear that the guy was not quite right in the head. And whilst I may agree China has the right to execute, it should undertake this legislation with the most thorough attention. It seems they have not.

 

Perhaps the most worrying thing from all of this (outwith the loss of life) is just how little an impact British pleas at the highest levels have had. I'm not for saying that it applies in every case, but when the Prime Minister of the UK appeals directly to the President and Prime Minister of China for clemincy, I find it a bit worrying it goes ignored, nevermind the further 26 appeals from the Foreign Office.

[Sterling Archer]

It is a really divisive story this one. I agree China has the right to try and execute people under their legislation...it is there in black and white. And it seems awfully late in the day that people are using the 'mental disorder' line for him now...where were these people from the get go?

 

That being said, from the way the story is presented here, it seems very clear that the guy was not quite right in the head. And whilst I may agree China has the right to execute, it should undertake this legislation with the most thorough attention. It seems they have not.

 

Perhaps the most worrying thing from all of this (outwith the loss of life) is just how little an impact British pleas at the highest levels have had. I'm not for saying that it applies in every case, but when the Prime Minister of the UK appeals directly to the President and Prime Minister of China for clemincy, I find it a bit worrying it goes ignored, nevermind the further 26 appeals from the Foreign Office.

 

There is no reason for Britain to be considered amongst the elite countries anymore. We are not big or powerful enough and are stuck in the past.

[shaun.lawson]

What is it with your connectedness Shaun? You often appear as not connected (no flaming computer screen) and then another 10 pearls appear.

 

I was in invisible mode for the Secret Santa competition, and forgot to turn it off! Fixed it now. :santa1:

[Gorgiewave]

I was in invisible mode for the Secret Santa competition, and forgot to turn it off! Fixed it now. :santa1:

 

Shaun in da house, thanks man.

[shaun.lawson]

There is no reason for Britain to be considered amongst the elite countries anymore. We are not big or powerful enough and are stuck in the past.

 

We're not stuck in the past, but certainly aren't big or powerful any more. In terms of world powers, you have the US, then China, then a big gap to Russia and India. The latter are rapidly gaining geopolitical influence, as are Brazil; the like of Britain, France and Germany have no real say any longer.

[Gorgiewave]

We're not stuck in the past, but certainly aren't big or powerful any more. In terms of world powers, you have the US, then China, then a big gap to Russia and India. The latter are rapidly gaining geopolitical influence, as are Brazil; the like of Britain, France and Germany have no real say any longer.[/QUOTE]

 

Hence the importance of a strong European Union. And that they offer a more or less united voice.

[Sterling Archer]

We're not stuck in the past, but certainly aren't big or powerful any more. In terms of world powers, you have the US, then China, then a big gap to Russia and India. The latter are rapidly gaining geopolitical influence, as are Brazil; the like of Britain, France and Germany have no real say any longer.

 

Shaun, maybe we (you and I) are not stuck in the past. However, a large number of Brits have this idea that the great in Great Britain still applies and that we're a country with a similar standing in the world to those you mentioned.

 

What I meant was that the traditional reasons countries are big/powerful are things like size, population, exports, wealth, etc. We are not big, highly populated, we do not have exports the likes of China and America and rely heavily on imports, the only reason we're still even considered at all is because of our history and the fact that we were in a power in the past.

[Bomber Harris' Best Mate]

When I saw this I thought the OP had arranged for another hat kicking show

[shaun.lawson]

 

Hence the importance of a strong European Union. And that they offer a more or less united voice.

 

Shaun, maybe we (you and I) are not stuck in the past. However, a large number of Brits have this idea that the great in Great Britain still applies and that we're a country with a similar standing in the world to those you mentioned.

 

What I meant was that the traditional reasons countries are big/powerful are things like size, population, exports, wealth, etc. We are not big, highly populated, we do not have exports the likes of China and America and rely heavily on imports, the only reason we're still even considered at all is because of our history and the fact that we were in a power in the past.

 

Correct chaps, on both counts. The idea that a nation of only sixty million can have a major say relative to huge blocs like the US, China, Russia or India is, self-evidently, ludicrous; and the only way we'll be able to maintain influence at all is as part of a common EU foreign policy.

 

A few years back, I decided to conduct an experiment. I went around asking all the lecturers I knew at LSE to list their ranking order of the world's great powers. Britain didn't figure in any of their lists - except with the wonderful Dr Alan Sked, founder of the UK Independence Party and despite his politics, an all round top bloke. Alan's top three were the US, Russia and Britain: he apparently still thinks this is 1945.

 

Meanwhile, when Jack Straw stuck his beak in on what was going on in Kashmir, the response of the Indian government was short and to the point. "We don't listen to what third rate powers have to say". Quite.

[Sterling Archer]

I think it would be best to get the vaseline out and prepare to take a pounding from China for the next 50 years.

[Andy.C]

There is no reason for Britain to be considered amongst the elite countries anymore. We are not big or powerful enough and are stuck in the past.

 

Oh no, I agree entirely. I wasn't meaning it like that at all. As Mr Mugabe put, Britain is but a 'insignificant spec' on the World stage or something like that. Whilst thats maybe not quite right, we certainly aren't a powerful force.

 

Back to my point, what I was trying to convey was my surprise that the direct appeal (of any World leader) had no impact at all. It is such a rare situation (first european executed there in 50 years i think), I thought that international relations (of any country) might hold a bit more sway. Obviously not.

[blairdin]

This isn't a debate about capital punishment. It's up to China to decide what her laws are going to be and enforce them accordingly. It's up to the rest of us to adhere to China's laws if we ever go there.

 

Unfortunately, this guy broke Chinese law and has been punished in accordancew with China's legal system. Even though to us the punishment seems brutal, nobody has any cause for complaint.

 

From my reading of things, the mental health issue was only raised after sentence had been passed. If a medical record showing a long running history of bipolar or adverse mental health had been provided to China, they would have taken this into account. No such documented history exists. Friends and family can't diagnose or treat bipolar. If there was a history of this illness, medical evidence would be available.

 

Not to mention the great unaswered question - if his mental health was so bad, why were his family happy to let him travel to/live alone in Poland?

 

Call me harsh, but I don't have an awful lot of sympathy here. If a foreign national committed a similar crime over here, I would expect him to be dealt with in the way our justice system dealt with a UK national. That's exactly what the Chinese authorities have done here.

[kitster]

This isn't a debate about capital punishment. It's up to China to decide what her laws are going to be and enforce them accordingly. It's up to the rest of us to adhere to China's laws if we ever go there.

 

Unfortunately, this guy broke Chinese law and has been punished in accordancew with China's legal system. Even though to us the punishment seems brutal, nobody has any cause for complaint.

 

From my reading of things, the mental health issue was only raised after sentence had been passed. If a medical record showing a long running history of bipolar or adverse mental health had been provided to China, they would have taken this into account. No such documented history exists. Friends and family can't diagnose or treat bipolar. If there was a history of this illness, medical evidence would be available.

 

Not to mention the great unaswered question - if his mental health was so bad, why were his family happy to let him travel to/live alone in Poland?

 

Call me harsh, but I don't have an awful lot of sympathy here. If a foreign national committed a similar crime over here, I would expect him to be dealt with in the way our justice system dealt with a UK national. That's exactly what the Chinese authorities have done here.

 

OK Blair..if we stole In Saudi we'd have our hands chopped off...would we treat people of other origins similar? Seems to me we get the worst of both worlds..no clemancy or pardon yet many living here can carry on trying to plot against us.