blairdin Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 OK Blair..if we stole In Saudi we'd have our hands chopped off...would we treat people of other origins similar? Seems to me we get the worst of both worlds..no clemancy or pardon yet many living here can carry on trying to plot against us. That's because we let them? If I stole in Saudi and got caught, I'd get my hand chopped off. Same punishment as the locals. If a person from Saudi came here (to the UK) and was convicted of theft, chances are they get a lecture from a judge and ordered to do a few hours community service - the same punishment as our locals. Major flaws to me in both! You have to respect the legal system of the country that you're in, regardless of where you come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Archer Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 If you're a criminal and you're committing a certain crime it would be advisable to check the punishment for committing that crime in the area that you intend to commit it. He should have known. I'm sure most drug smugglers know the risk they take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 If this guy was mentally challenged it does seem extreme to execute. However several things must be taken into consideration. As far as a fair trial is concerned it is an oxymoron to pair the words fair and China in the same sentence. How did the individual now dead get to this stage. I would say if the mental illness claim is true he was seen by the drug sellers as an excellent candidate to carry drugs. If his condition was obvious he may be a candidate for lesser scrutiny, if not he was expendable. Who are the bad guys in the whole scenario, in my humble opinion whoever supplied him the drugs to import, they are the **** of the earth, they are responsible for many deaths, drug induced, legally committed such as the subject death, and carried out executions by them of people they feel betrayed them in any way. These without any form of trial fair or otherwise. To become totally unpopular, but to say something I feel I must, each time someone writes and I realise some are tongue in cheek, that they enjoyed using an illegal drug, they have by buying same, contributed to the capital used by dealers, and thus have contributed in a very small way to situations like the one being discussed. Harsh comment but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 That's because we let them? If I stole in Saudi and got caught, I'd get my hand chopped off. Same punishment as the locals. If a person from Saudi came here (to the UK) and was convicted of theft, chances are they get a lecture from a judge and ordered to do a few hours community service - the same punishment as our locals. Major flaws to me in both! You have to respect the legal system of the country that you're in, regardless of where you come from. How about if you were alleged to have been guilty of theft, or terrorism, or adultery, or whoring, or drinking in Saudi Arabia, and were convicted despite there being no evidence and not having done it, blair? Would you deserve everything you get then as well - because we "have to respect other countries' legal systems"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 If you're a criminal and you're committing a certain crime it would be advisable to check the punishment for committing that crime in the area that you intend to commit it. He should have known. I'm sure most drug smugglers know the risk they take. Despite being delusional and unbalanced? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deek Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 This story will be next weeks chip poke. There will be more concern over the recovering economy in the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitster Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 That's because we let them? If I stole in Saudi and got caught, I'd get my hand chopped off. Same punishment as the locals. If a person from Saudi came here (to the UK) and was convicted of theft, chances are they get a lecture from a judge and ordered to do a few hours community service - the same punishment as our locals. Major flaws to me in both! You have to respect the legal system of the country that you're in, regardless of where you come from. That is very true Blair. The legal system here is far from perfect and open to abuse from many but at least you get a fair hearing compared to most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Archer Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Despite being delusional and unbalanced? Really? whoaa hold on shaun I thought we'd already decided that he wasn't mentally ill? Anyway, I said should have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Shin Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Despite being delusional and unbalanced? Really? Im sure that came from his family , they will say anything to stop the death penalty. How many thiefs do people know who arent right in the head , what do we do with them, tbf id fecken shoot them...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Im sure that came from his family , they will say anything to stop the death penalty. How many thiefs do people know who arent right in the head , what do we do with them, tbf id fecken shhot them...lol It hasn't just come from his family. It's come from other witnesses too - and part of the documentation the British government sent the Chinese authorities were his medical records, which appear to have been ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Archer Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 It hasn't just come from his family. It's come from other witnesses too - and part of the documentation the British government sent the Chinese authorities were his medical records, which appear to have been ignored. From bbc news In a statement issued after the execution, the Chinese Embassy said Mr Shaikh's rights "were properly respected and guaranteed" and British concerns were "duly noted and taken into consideration". It said: "As for his possible mental illness which has been much talked about, there apparently has been no previous medical record." A report from the official Chinese news agency Xinhua said that China's Supreme People's Court had not been provided with any documentation proving that Mr Shaikh had a mental disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 From bbc news That's eyebrow raising, I must admit. I wonder what 'proving he had a mental disorder' means in this context though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairdin Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 How about if you were alleged to have been guilty of theft, or terrorism, or adultery, or whoring, or drinking in Saudi Arabia, and were convicted despite there being no evidence and not having done it, blair? Would you deserve everything you get then as well - because we "have to respect other countries' legal systems"? If I choose to go to Saudi, China or anywhere else then yes, I have to respect their legal system even if I become a victim of said system. Until our own legal system is flawless, we or our government have absolutely no right to criticise anyone elses. Ultimately, I wouldn't commit the crime. Here, we have a guy who we are now being told had a severe mental health issue that significantly impacts on the quality of life of genuine suffers, yet it appears he'd never seen a doctor about it before he was caught trafficing drugs? A family that were happy to let him travel or live alone in Poland in the first place despite said bipolar illness? Doesn't sit right with me. The guy left Poland having made an informed decision to accept whatever reward was on the table for delivering a bag or package for a stranger. A guy that would have been asked at the airport in Poland if he packed his own bag and that he wasn't carrying anything for anyone else? It's tragic, but I certainly don't feel outrage against China or huge sympathy for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
systemx Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I,m trying to get the rights to Come Little Rabbit a sure fire posthumous No1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southside1874 Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Did Britain once have a policy of getting the chinese hooked on heroin so they could control the place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMA MAROON Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 The guy is a martyr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Guns Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 This isn't a debate about capital punishment. It's up to China to decide what her laws are going to be and enforce them accordingly. It's up to the rest of us to adhere to China's laws if we ever go there. Unfortunately, this guy broke Chinese law and has been punished in accordancew with China's legal system. Even though to us the punishment seems brutal, nobody has any cause for complaint. From my reading of things, the mental health issue was only raised after sentence had been passed. If a medical record showing a long running history of bipolar or adverse mental health had been provided to China, they would have taken this into account. No such documented history exists. Friends and family can't diagnose or treat bipolar. If there was a history of this illness, medical evidence would be available. Not to mention the great unaswered question - if his mental health was so bad, why were his family happy to let him travel to/live alone in Poland? Call me harsh, but I don't have an awful lot of sympathy here. If a foreign national committed a similar crime over here, I would expect him to be dealt with in the way our justice system dealt with a UK national. That's exactly what the Chinese authorities have done here. Could not agree with you more mate. 100% spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Spot on article... Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Spot on article... Here An article decrying the moral decay of Britain in the Daily Heil? Well, I never! His view that we're soft on drugs is, to be frank, absolutely hilarious: we've been getting drug policy disastrously, tragically wrong for years and years largely because of pandering to idiotic opinions like his. Still, an article slagging Pete Doherty, Amy Winehouse and George Michael will get the JKB thumbs up, I'm sure. If only it'd included a 'get her pumped' in Kate Moss' case, it'd receive wild approval on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 An article decrying the moral decay of Britain in the Daily Heil? Well, I never! His view that we're soft on drugs is, to be frank, absolutely hilarious: we've been getting drug policy disastrously, tragically wrong for years and years largely because of pandering to idiotic opinions like his. Still, an article slagging Pete Doherty, Amy Winehouse and George Michael will get the JKB thumbs up, I'm sure. If only it'd included a 'get her pumped' in Kate Moss' case, it'd receive wild approval on here. It sheds more light on the 'poor wee man' picture being painted for Akmal. What seems to be getting lost is he actually committed the crime, if he hadn't China wouldn't have had a decision to make and he'd still be alive and well, probably spending his time harassing women again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 JUDGE: You are accused of smuggling heroin into China. Did you do it? ACCUSED: Yes. JUDGE: Why? ACCUSED: For money. JUDGE: Guilty as charged! I'm surprised the trial lasted as long as 30 minutes, tbh. I don't support capital punishment, but the Chinese do, and it was a capital crime committed in China, so adios amigo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 smuggling heroin into china? what a muppet. thank god they killed him; he'd've been smuggling sand into iran next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighusref Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I was all for having him killed until I heard his single and changed my mind. I now vote for World peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Akmal Shaikh's trial lasted half an hour. Half an hour to decide he was guilty; half an hour to ignore China's own supposed laws on sentencing mentally ill individuals; half an hour to sentence him to death. But he hasn't ever been found to be mentally ill though has he? And is there a certain time limit which would have made the decision more acceptable for you? This is a man who trafficked drugs into the country because he thought the money would make him an international pop star. It's also someone who recorded a pop song because he thought it would bring about world peace. To say he was delusional is to put it mildly. Like John Lennon? For the crime of being delusional and suffering from bipolar disorder, he's been murdered by the Chinese state. No, for trafficking drugs. And again, he has never been diagnosed with bipolar. Shaun, maybe we (you and I) are not stuck in the past. However, a large number of Brits have this idea that the great in Great Britain still applies and that we're a country with a similar standing in the world to those you mentioned. It does still apply, it has nothing to do with political or military power. The British Isles includes Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the republic of Ireland. The great Britain refers to the fact that the area with Scotland, England and Wales is greater or larger than the area with Ireland and Northern Ireland. It is why we have the name of the United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland. How about if you were alleged to have been guilty of theft, or terrorism, or adultery, or whoring, or drinking in Saudi Arabia, and were convicted despite there being no evidence and not having done it, blair? Would you deserve everything you get then as well - because we "have to respect other countries' legal systems"? What has that got to do with anything when this man was guilty and so China was quite within it's rights to convict and punish him. Despite being delusional and unbalanced? Really? Again Shaun, pure speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodemac Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Im with the op on this one, they know the risks, it wont deter , but at least its one less person to smuggle drugs. Kill them all agree 100000000% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Ain't it just hilarious - when ever anyone British is caught carrying drugs into any country with a harsh and repressive view on drugs and a better remedial system for dealing with offenders than we have here - the wishy washy liberals always start bleating about "Mental Illness", "personality disorders" or just that the poor unfortunate had been duped by some Mr Big and didn't actually know what he was doing. These nearly always fatuous pleas in mitigation, just won't wash with any judicial system whose main aim is deterrence and ensuring that any future malefactors know exactly what's in store for them. Anyway it's pretty funny that anyone on here actually thinks that the Chinese give a flying toss for any of the bleating that been done by any member of the extremely incompetent Government we have here. Criminals here are virtually rewarded for their efforts!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portobellojambo1 Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 This isn't a debate about capital punishment. It's up to China to decide what her laws are going to be and enforce them accordingly. It's up to the rest of us to adhere to China's laws if we ever go there. Unfortunately, this guy broke Chinese law and has been punished in accordancew with China's legal system. Even though to us the punishment seems brutal, nobody has any cause for complaint. From my reading of things, the mental health issue was only raised after sentence had been passed. If a medical record showing a long running history of bipolar or adverse mental health had been provided to China, they would have taken this into account. No such documented history exists. Friends and family can't diagnose or treat bipolar. If there was a history of this illness, medical evidence would be available. Not to mention the great unaswered question - if his mental health was so bad, why were his family happy to let him travel to/live alone in Poland? Call me harsh, but I don't have an awful lot of sympathy here. If a foreign national committed a similar crime over here, I would expect him to be dealt with in the way our justice system dealt with a UK national. That's exactly what the Chinese authorities have done here. Agree totally with this post. OK Blair..if we stole In Saudi we'd have our hands chopped off...would we treat people of other origins similar? Seems to me we get the worst of both worlds..no clemancy or pardon yet many living here can carry on trying to plot against us. That is our fault kitster, we let people come here and do what they want, and when they do wrong countless people queue up, and try and use every means (i.e. invent till then unknown medical histories, or any other excuse they think will work) to ensure they are found not guilty. The guy went to the People's Republic of China with drugs. The PRC has legislation which states any person entering the country with drugs in their possession will be executed. This person was executed, I'm struggling to find where China has done anything other than what they said they would do. If their law stated he would receive a jail sentence of, for example, 20 years and they executed him instead I could then understand people being upset. Maybe it us that needs to change our system, to a system where criminals receive punishments befitting the crimes they carry out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
south morocco Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 A) I think that will happen, but not before a lot of teeth gnashing. The potential savings to the government could be huge. Plus many people would not die from overdosing on substances they have no idea what they contain. Whether you disagree or not China has the sovereign right make their own laws and punishments. I have no idea as to the extent of Akmal Shaikh's mental capacity, so have no idea, if he knew the consequences of smuggling heroin into China or not. And I mean the consequences both to himself and the end user of the drug. 4 Kilo's stamped on twice could give you 160,000 individual deals. How many deaths could have came out of that? C) I will sit on the fence on this one. There are many pro's and cons. i cant argue with these sentiments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 We're not stuck in the past, but certainly aren't big or powerful any more. In terms of world powers, you have the US, then China, then a big gap to Russia and India. The latter are rapidly gaining geopolitical influence, as are Brazil; the like of Britain, France and Germany have no real say any longer. Depends how you measure world power. Military capability, economic strength, political influence or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo-fletch Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 capital punishment is wrong full stop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Depends how you measure world power. Military capability, economic strength, political influence or whatever. Military capability: US, China, Russia (I guess), India Economic strength: US, China, India, Japan, Germany Political influence: US, China, Russia, Britain, France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Military capability: US, China, Russia (I guess), India Economic strength: US, China, India, Japan, Germany Political influence: US, China, Russia, Britain, France Er, baws! India is nowhere near a Top 5 in economic strength. It has more potential than China in the forthcoming decades, but that's because of the population structure relative to the Chinese. A 5th place in economic strength is practically irrelevant these days. The way Japan is going, it could become an irrelevance as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Military capability: US, China, Russia (I guess), India Economic strength: US, China, India, Japan, Germany Political influence: US, China, Russia, Britain, France I think the UK still has a GDP bigger than India. Depends how you measure military capability. Outside the US the UK and France are still the only countries that can actually project military power ( albeit relatively small ) worldwide though the others will be able to sooner rather than later. We are certainly declining and I agree that, to retain any significant world influence, the EU need to act together more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Er, baws! India is nowhere near a Top 5 in economic strength. It has more potential than China in the forthcoming decades, but that's because of the population structure relative to the Chinese. A 5th place in economic strength is practically irrelevant these days. The way Japan is going, it could become an irrelevance as well. I sat and pondered over that one, because I knew you'd be along! The way I see it, India's potential is enough to make them a power right now; precisely because of the almost endemic deflation in Japan and the problems Germany have had since re-unification. In real terms, I'm not sure who'd be third in that list if not India to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I think the UK still has a GDP bigger than India. Depends how you measure military capability. Outside the US the UK and France are still the only countries that can actually project military power ( albeit relatively small ) worldwide though the others will be able to sooner rather than later. We are certainly declining and I agree that, to retain any significant world influence, the EU need to act together more. Up to a point, yes. It strikes me that China provide a huge military deterrent in their region though, and you might argue Russia do in theirs as well. In Western Europe though, it's only Britain and France who have any kind of significant armies; and if you ask me, both are far more militaristic than anyone else on the continent. France still have a measure of geopolitical power by attempting to represent a via media between the US on the one hand, China on the other: the kind of role I'd expect the EU to play in the future. Britain arguably waste what influence we might otherwise have by kneeling at Uncle Sam's bootlaces, licking furiously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I sat and pondered over that one, because I knew you'd be along! The way I see it, India's potential is enough to make them a power right now; precisely because of the almost endemic deflation in Japan and the problems Germany have had since re-unification. In real terms, I'm not sure who'd be third in that list if not India to be honest. I'd place Germany 3rd, simply because they are now the European economy. You will see this as the PIIGS are subtly bailed out in 2010, masquerading under the ECB. The trick will be to convince German taxpayers that bailing out the Greeks, for example, isn't (a) anything to do with them and ( won't cost them anything, when in fact it is exactly that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Up to a point, yes. It strikes me that China provide a huge military deterrent in their region though, and you might argue Russia do in theirs as well. In Western Europe though, it's only Britain and France who have any kind of significant armies; and if you ask me, both are far more militaristic than anyone else on the continent. France still have a measure of geopolitical power by attempting to represent a via media between the US on the one hand, China on the other: the kind of role I'd expect the EU to play in the future. Britain arguably waste what influence we might otherwise have by kneeling at Uncle Sam's bootlaces, licking furiously. That's the suez syndrome. Though you can argue our buddiness with, or subservience to, the US allowed us to win on the Falklands which is the biggest non-US long distance national overseas military operation since WW2. :santa1: The French are just vainglorious and.....French. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 That's the suez syndrome. Though you can argue our buddiness with, or subservience to, the US allowed us to win on the Falkalnds which is the biggest non-US long distance national overseas military operation since WW2. :santa1: The French are just vainglorious and.....French. True. Caspar Weinberger's support was very important, and never a certainty. On Suez: it makes me laugh really. Macmillan was pro-European too, of course; but what was our response to the US threatening oil sanctions and basically leading our humiliation at the UN? Suck up to them more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deek Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Meantime Akmal Shaikh's body is starting to decompose in a grave somewhere in the remote Western region of China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Meantime Akmal Shaikh's body is starting to decompose in a grave somewhere in the remote Western region of China. Who? Oh yes, the drug mule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Who? Oh yes, the former drug mule. Sorted that for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Sorted that for you. Shouldn't laugh but :santa4: I did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troonjambo Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 this 3 polish guys made him do it **** is getting on my tits he was a ethnic Pakistani/Afghan he was arrested after traveling as far as they can tell via Kyrgyzstan via Tajikistan pretty mobile for a loony eh after all they border northern tribal Pakistan and Afghanistan the center of world drug production oh and war zones easy places for 3 white polish guys to pull the strings GIVE ME PEACE ,do i think he should be executed no I'm anti death penalty do i think the peoples republic had the right to damn straight he was a international heroin smuggler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 this 3 polish guys made him do it **** is getting on my tits he was a ethnic Pakistani/Afghan he was arrested after traveling as far as they can tell via Kyrgyzstan via Tajikistan pretty mobile for a loony eh after all they border northern tribal Pakistan and Afghanistan the center of world drug production oh and war zones easy places for 3 white polish guys to pull the strings GIVE ME PEACE ,do i think he should be executed no I'm anti death penalty do i think the peoples republic had the right to damn straight he was a international heroin smuggler Was that the case for the prosecution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deek Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Was that the case for the prosecution? That was the voice of realism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 That was the voice of realism. Not admissible in a UK court of law I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troonjambo Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Was that the case for the prosecution? i think the case for the prosicution was the 4000 grams of uncut pure heroin in his bag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deek Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Not admissible in a UK court of law I'm afraid. Circumstantial evidence is permitted. His plea in mitigation however would probably be blown apart in this country. Although I think in China they simply would not listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 i think the case for the prosicution was the 4000 grams of uncut pure heroin in his bag I don't think there is any doubt that he did it. It's his fitness to plead that is being questioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troonjambo Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Not admissible in a UK court of law I'm afraid. he wasnt in the uk he was in the peoples republic of china and before that the peoples republic of Tajikistan and before that Kyrgyzstan and god knows where but he wasnt in the uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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