troonjambo Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I don't think there is any doubt that he did it. It's his fitness to plead that is being questioned. we will never know he is dead after all but i have to my great and deep personal sorrow known people with serious mental health problems none of them were fit for heading into the above lunitic nations scoring 4000grams of smack and running them into the prc anyone who thinks he was not on board for this is delusional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deek Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 he wasnt in the uk he was in the peoples republic of china and before that the peoples republic of Tajikistan and before that Kyrgyzstan and god knows where but he wasnt in the uk And somehow I dont think he was in Poland, that well know country of heroin manufacturing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troonjambo Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 And somehow I dont think he was in Poland, that well know country of heroin manufacturing. damn you deek you just made my point far better and in less words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 we will never know he is dead after all but i have to my great and deep personal sorrow known people with serious mental health problems none of them were fit for heading into the above lunitic nations scoring 4000grams of smack and running them into the prc anyone who thinks he was not on board for this is delusional An interesting choice of words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portobellojambo1 Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Not admissible in a UK court of law I'm afraid. Fortunately he wasn't trying to smuggle heroin into the UK. If he had been and had been caught, some lawyer would have put together a case, kept it going for a couple of years (with fees of around ?5,000/?10,000 per day), and in the end he (the guilty party) would have got stuck in a safe house (i.e. a nice secluded bungalow), with a new identity and all the trimmings to ensure he lived out his life in safety, or something as equally crazy. Meanwhile the drugs would have hit the market and terminated a number of lives, both directly and indirectly. This way only one person has been terminated, the smuggler, perfect result. Do I think he knew what he was doing, absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Fortunately he wasn't trying to smuggle heroin into the UK. If he had been and had been caught, some lawyer would have put together a case, kept it going for a couple of years (with fees of around ?5,000/?10,000 per day), and in the end he (the guilty party) would have got stuck in a safe house (i.e. a nice secluded bungalow), with a new identity and all the trimmings to ensure he lived out his life in safety, or something as equally crazy. Meanwhile the drugs would have hit the market and terminated a number of lives, both directly and indirectly. This way only one person has been terminated, the smuggler, perfect result. Do I think he knew what he was doing, absolutely. You're getting cynical with age Iain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reaths17 Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 can we give a kilo of heroin to all the liberals in this country and drop them in china, then maybe we can get some real punishment for the f***** criminals here. it would leave a nice amount of cash to help the victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richierich Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Whilst it's unfortunate and probably a harsh punishment the laws were there and I kind of back them for following it through, it will send the message to their future offenders. I reckon that's how this country is in such a state, all the 'Oh well he didn't really mean it' and 'Oh he's really a good lad', then they get off with it with a slap on the wrist. The ones that are punished are old Mrs Smith scared to come out off her house to chase the 30 neds camped outside firing eggs at her windows, or Mrs Jones whose son was kicked to death for having the wrong football strip on, etc.. I'm not suggesting death penalty for crimes like that but at least some form of deterrent. Even if it's as simple as sorting folks bins to seperate recycleable refuse for persisstant offenders, cutting back overgrown pathways and clearing rubbish from paths and waterways, painting over grafittied walls, taking shopping trolleys back to supermarkets. Build detention centres, similar to the Len Lothian storage centres, where offenders have to report to just to keep them off the streets if they are causing disturbances. Let their parents come and pick them up from there. The more they shout/scream/moan/play up the longer they are detained with nothing to do and have to keep reporting back daily or their punishment is increased. It's about time we sorted out a decent form of punishment system here, god knows what the next generation will be like, I know I'll get ripped apart for this but they get away with everything and it's the decent law abiding folk that suffer, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maltese jambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Personally im pretty amazed how many experts psychologists we have amongst us who specialise in the mental state of Akmal Shaikh...being able to examine & diagnose a person you know absolutly nothing about, have never met and there is no mental health records about is pretty impressive. I assume you are getting your information from somewhere... Reprieve/Amnesty websites perhaps? - where nobody is guilty of any crime under the sun and have all suffered blatent miscarriages of justice? And what about the thousands upon thousands of others who are executed? Is there a thread of kickback for each of them too? Just because someone happens to have a British Passport somehow gives them immunity to everyone elses laws? If he was just a normal Chinese, none of us would be at all bothered would we? And how anyone from the UK is able to preech and dictate to other countries about their 'human rights' record is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Personally im pretty amazed how many experts psychologists we have amongst us who specialise in the mental state of Akmal Shaikh...being able to examine & diagnose a person you know absolutly nothing about, have never met and there is no mental health records about is pretty impressive. I assume you are getting your information from somewhere... Reprieve/Amnesty websites perhaps? - where nobody is guilty of any crime under the sun and have all suffered blatent miscarriages of justice? And what about the thousands upon thousands of others who are executed? Is there a thread of kickback for each of them too? Just because someone happens to have a British Passport somehow gives them immunity to everyone elses laws? If he was just a normal Chinese, none of us would be at all bothered would we? And how anyone from the UK is able to preech and dictate to other countries about their 'human rights' record is beyond me. So should we forget the idea of human rights, and the right to a fair trial, altogether? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maltese jambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 So should we forget the idea of human rights, and the right to a fair trial, altogether? Is it really a fair trial if the only acceptable outcome to you is 'not guilty. Never mind the 4kg of heroin, never mind all the lives you could have terminated, i see you have a british passport, heres a first class ticket home' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Is it really a fair trial if the only acceptable outcome to you is 'not guilty. Never mind the 4kg of heroin, never mind all the lives you could have terminated, i see you have a british passport, heres a first class ticket home' Of course not. However, as one poster pointed out, the trial only lasted 30 minutes but a death sentence was handed down. That doesn't meet the requirements of a fair trial. I don't know whether Akmal Shaik was mentally ill or not, and wouldn't want to pass judgement on that as I'm no expert. However given that the mental illness issue was raised at the time in China, and the Chinese refused for Shaik to even be seen by a doctor, there was an obvious lack of due process in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Is it really a fair trial if the only acceptable outcome to you is 'not guilty. Never mind the 4kg of heroin, never mind all the lives you could have terminated, i see you have a british passport, heres a first class ticket home' I've no more access to his medical records than you have I imagine. Similarly I have no influence on how the Chinese shape their 'justice' system either. However, if he did have a history of mental illness then it should have been taken into account. Apart from that I'm against the death penalty on principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maltese jambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Of course not. However, as one poster pointed out, the trial only lasted 30 minutes but a death sentence was handed down. That doesn't meet the requirements of a fair trial. I don't know whether Akmal Shaik was mentally ill or not, and wouldn't want to pass judgement on that as I'm no expert. However given that the mental illness issue was raised at the time in China, and the Chinese refused for Shaik to even be seen by a doctor, there was an obvious lack of due process in this case. I take your point that everyone deserves a fair trial, but not quite sure about the 30 minute claim. Apparantly the man made a 50 minute speech himself at some point during the trial so how is it possible it only lasted half an hour in that case? Secondly, it is claimed that he was denied to see a BRITISH doctor, therefore it could be that a Chinese doctor examined him? The truth is none of us really know what the exact circumstances of the case were, my point was really that its unfair for us to pass judgement based on the limited and bias accounts available to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 I take your point that everyone deserves a fair trial, but not quite sure about the 30 minute claim. Apparantly the man made a 50 minute speech himself at some point during the trial so how is it possible it only lasted half an hour in that case? Secondly, it is claimed that he was denied to see a BRITISH doctor, therefore it could be that a Chinese doctor examined him? The truth is none of us really know what the exact circumstances of the case were, my point was really that its unfair for us to pass judgement based on the limited and bias accounts available to us. I see your point MJ, and I wouldn't want to pass judgement on his guilt or mental capacity myself, but there have been other organisations working on the case since the outset and they have expressed grave concerns as to the lack of due process. Regarding the doctor, Shaikh wasn't allowed to be assessed by any doctor, even a local one. There's an interesting article here: http://www.reprieve.org.uk/akmalshaikh by Reprieve who worked on the case in China. The 50 minute rambling speech appears to have been at Shaikh's appeal, not the original trial which passed down sentence. It appears that, no matter the exact times involved, he underwent a very short, almost perfunctory, trial. Putting this individual case, and its merits, aside for the moment, it is important that due process is followed and fair trials given in order that the criminal justice system not be abused and human rights guaranteed. The thing is, we all know that China has one of the worst human rights records and this just illustrates the fact. Given China's current ascendency in the world, they are able to flick two fingers at the rest of the world regarding the lack of human rights in the country. I have to say that I'm glad that I don't live there and I empathise with those that do, particularly those who try and speak out against the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boaby Ewing Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Great 'typo' in the print edition of the Scotsman today. On the top of the page where each section is usually flagged 'News', 'Sport' etc. they've managed to flag this story as 'Business' (pg 4-5) Which is accurate in its own way I guess. Headline's not bad either - 'We fully respected human rights of Briton - then killed him, say Chinese'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadows Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share Posted December 30, 2009 I take your point that everyone deserves a fair trial, but not quite sure about the 30 minute claim. Apparantly the man made a 50 minute speech himself at some point during the trial so how is it possible it only lasted half an hour in that case? Secondly, it is claimed that he was denied to see a BRITISH doctor, therefore it could be that a Chinese doctor examined him? The truth is none of us really know what the exact circumstances of the case were, my point was really that its unfair for us to pass judgement based on the limited and bias accounts available to us. If the Chinese Doctor is like any of them in shopping centres,he would have been in for ages ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 If the Chinese Doctor is like any of them in shopping centres,he would have been in for ages ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someday Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 I take your point that everyone deserves a fair trial, but not quite sure about the 30 minute claim. Apparantly the man made a 50 minute speech himself at some point during the trial so how is it possible it only lasted half an hour in that case? Secondly, it is claimed that he was denied to see a BRITISH doctor, therefore it could be that a Chinese doctor examined him? The truth is none of us really know what the exact circumstances of the case were, my point was really that its unfair for us to pass judgement based on the limited and bias accounts available to us. We do know for a fact that the dead drug mule never sought out or received any medical attention in the UK for any form of mental illness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Archer Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 We do know for a fact that the dead drug mule never sought out or received any medical attention in the UK for any form of mental illness. and to the people who say he wasn't mentally fit enough to...none of his "loving family" did either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armageddon Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 If the Chinese Doctor is like any of them in shopping centres,he would have been in for ages ! Years ago in the Gyle my mate was walking by the Chinese Herbal place when the woman offered him herbs for erection issues, he told stopped and asked "if you think i have erection problems I ask we go through the back and you can do all you can to examine me and then you can decide if I need your ******ing herbs", as you can imagine the answer is fairly obvious. As for our innocent/daft/world traveller who sings his way through the drugs charts then decides to take around 5k into China and gets caught ... like loads have said, where were his concerned family when he was going to these places ? On the other hand, anybody who frequents a casino here will know the Chinese are a very rude nation. I cant stand them, the Maybury casino is fairly bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Archer Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Years ago in the Gyle my mate was walking by the Chinese Herbal place when the woman offered him herbs for erection issues, he told stopped and asked "if you think i have erection problems I ask we go through the back and you can do all you can to examine me and then you can decide if I need your ******ing herbs", as you can imagine the answer is fairly obvious. As for our innocent/daft/world traveller who sings his way through the drugs charts then decides to take around 5k into China and gets caught ... like loads have said, where were his concerned family when he was going to these places ? On the other hand, anybody who frequents a casino here will know the Chinese are a very rude nation. I cant stand them, the Maybury casino is fairly bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armageddon Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Just sharing my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Archer Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Just sharing my experience. of 1billion chinese people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Years ago in the Gyle my mate was walking by the Chinese Herbal place when the woman offered him herbs for erection issues, he told stopped and asked "if you think i have erection problems I ask we go through the back and you can do all you can to examine me and then you can decide if I need your ******ing herbs", as you can imagine the answer is fairly obvious. As for our innocent/daft/world traveller who sings his way through the drugs charts then decides to take around 5k into China and gets caught ... like loads have said, where were his concerned family when he was going to these places ? On the other hand, anybody who frequents a casino here will know the Chinese are a very rude nation. I cant stand them, the Maybury casino is fairly bad. We don't all have the support of our families. In the case of Shaikh, it looks like it was too little, too late... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberjambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Quote from The Sun It emerged yesterday that Mr Shaikh, of Kentish Town, North London, was investigated by British and Polish spy chiefs after a chilling text message he sent following London's 7/7 bombings was intercepted. It said: "Now everybody will understand who Muslims are and what jihad is." If true then well done China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Quote from The Sun It emerged yesterday that Mr Shaikh, of Kentish Town, North London, was investigated by British and Polish spy chiefs after a chilling text message he sent following London's 7/7 bombings was intercepted. It said: "Now everybody will understand who Muslims are and what jihad is." If true then well done China. No, No. Don't you know he's bi-polar( and even that has not having been diagnosed by a doctor of course), and that, according to some, makes it all right for him to do anything he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 capital punishment is wrong full stop! But only for women - I never want to see a woman hung like a man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 No, No. Don't you know he's bi-polar( and even that has not having been diagnosed by a doctor of course), and that, according to some, makes it all right for him to do anything he wants. Who on earth has said that? Do you always have such a Sun headline outlook on life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 But only for women - I never want to see a woman hung like a man! Don't go to Brazil then. :santa1: Of course you knew that people are hanged, not hung. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Don't go to Brazil then. :santa1: Of course you knew that people are hanged, not hung. "Hung by the neck until you are dead" "And may god have mercy on your soul" I'm sure that was the old phrase used by the Judge in these cases!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Who on earth has said that? Do you always have such a Sun headline outlook on life? 1. Inferred by some. 2. No just a sunny outlook on life in general!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 "Hung by the neck until you are dead" "And may god have mercy on your soul" I'm sure that was the old phrase used by the Judge in these cases!! Well if they did then they were wrong (http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/features/chref/chref.py/main?query=hang&title=21st). Socks are hung on the washing line, paintings are hung in a gallery, but people are hanged. It's weird, the English language sometimes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Well if they did then they were wrong (http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/features/chref/chref.py/main?query=hang&title=21st). Socks are hung on the washing line, paintings are hung in a gallery, but people are hanged. It's weird, the English language sometimes... Ah well they were mostly old Etonians or from other public schools and maybe their grasp of English was a bit wayward. Hanged or hung - there were certainly very few recidivists in these days!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabthejambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 In the same way that if you're overrun with ants, killing one of them will make a difference. Better to find other, more effective, ways of keeping the ants away. I am in full agreement here.... The death penalty is no use against ants....:santa1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 1. Inferred by some. 2. No just a sunny outlook on life in general!! :santa1: Good! Virtually all of the criticism I have seen about this case hangs around the fact that there was not due process, and from what I've read and heard I would have to agree with that. It's a minefield of a subject, the limited responsibility of mentally ill people and how they should be held accountable for any criminal actions, and how the public should be protected from any potential re-offending. Mental illness is also a grey area in itself, imo. I'm certainly out of my depth on the subject, but I hope that in a normal court process the experts would be able to help the judge (and jury, if present) to make reasoned judgements as to how responsible people were for their crimes. In this case however they weren't even given the opportunity to undertake those evaluations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maltese jambo Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 I see your point MJ, and I wouldn't want to pass judgement on his guilt or mental capacity myself, but there have been other organisations working on the case since the outset and they have expressed grave concerns as to the lack of due process. Regarding the doctor, Shaikh wasn't allowed to be assessed by any doctor, even a local one. There's an interesting article here: http://www.reprieve.org.uk/akmalshaikh by Reprieve who worked on the case in China. The 50 minute rambling speech appears to have been at Shaikh's appeal, not the original trial which passed down sentence. It appears that, no matter the exact times involved, he underwent a very short, almost perfunctory, trial. Putting this individual case, and its merits, aside for the moment, it is important that due process is followed and fair trials given in order that the criminal justice system not be abused and human rights guaranteed. The thing is, we all know that China has one of the worst human rights records and this just illustrates the fact. Given China's current ascendency in the world, they are able to flick two fingers at the rest of the world regarding the lack of human rights in the country. I have to say that I'm glad that I don't live there and I empathise with those that do, particularly those who try and speak out against the system. Good post. I just feel the reprieve site is a bit too ridiculously bias to deserve much credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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