SNP and Independence

[Drew Busby !]

We need a referendum ASAP, before the next Hollyrood election. Three options - total independence, more devolved powers (including reviewing tax adjusting powers, fuel duty setting and a re-working of the Barnet formula) or leaving things as is now.

 

IMHO, the middle option will be the most favoured by miles. Rightly so.

 

Then one way or another the debate can be parked for another generation, and the next Scottish Government (who I hope will still be the SNP, who haven't done a bad job in the circumstances IMHO) can get on with doing the best for Scotland using whatever powers they have.

 

we have proportional representation up here, so it's unlikely any Scottish Government will ever have an overall majority to steamroller things through. Good policies (alcohol minimum price) are being denied passage through our Parliment because of 'party-politics' (or in the case of Edinburgh Trams, bad policies steamrollered through) and this will remain the case until the independence issue is dealt with for a generation.

 

Right now, the Unionist parties are stitching us up. Most councils are stitching us up (that's where the teaching problems are). All to score points over the SNP. It's pathetic.

 

Mate, every little wave takes us further up the beach. Today was another wave. And that "gradualism" is fine by me. A bit more power here, a bit more power there. Over the next 10, 15, 20 years... we'll end up being as close to being independant in reality as makes no difference IMO.

[shaun.lawson]

Having thought about it over the weekend, I'm now in a complete flap over Scottish independence. Because given even Michael Howard's Tories won a plurality of the votes in England in 2005, what'd be left to stop the Conservatives winning election after election after election down here?

 

Come on folks - have a heart. Don't abandon us to those *******s! It's too horrific to contemplate...

[Drew Busby !]

Having thought about it over the weekend, I'm now in a complete flap over Scottish independence. Because given even Michael Howard's Tories won a plurality of the votes in England in 2005, what'd be left to stop the Conservatives winning election after election after election down here?

 

Come on folks - have a heart. Don't abandon us to those *******s! It's too horrific to contemplate...

 

Sorry mate. You'll just have to blow the feckers up.

[Cabbie754]

you don't seem to like being Scottish though?

 

It's amazing how they always put down their own country

[Guest King]

 

Laughable.

 

Is that what you contribute Cabbie? Two thumbs up to a comment which isnt actually true just to have a dig at someone with a different opinion from yours. Ha

[Cabbie754]

 

You know your clutching at straws, 301 votes or something pathetic like that.

 

The 56% in favour are 56% of 301 people who do not know whats best for Scotland.

 

I would guess alot are the braveheart brigade, brainwashed by historically innacurate movies who dont know the first thing about history or politics.

 

The majority dont want independence, this is obvious. The only people who do are the vocal minority with the chip on their shoulder. And of course the SNP.

 

Funny that! If it was the other way round and 56% wanted to remain in the union you unionists would be quoting this all the time.

 

Fact is a recent poll open to all on kickbackers supports Scottish independence.

[Guest King]

It's amazing how they always put down their own country

 

Nobody is putting their country down. If your pro Union your anti Scottish? Narrow minded much?

[davemclaren]

Laughable.

 

Is that what you contribute Cabbie? Two thumbs up to a comment which isnt actually true just to have a dig at someone with a different opinion from yours. Ha

 

To be fair you did have a few digs at people with different opinions as well.

[Guest King]

To be fair you did have a few digs at people with different opinions as well.

 

I respect everyones opinion

[Cabbie754]

Laughable.

 

Is that what you contribute Cabbie? Two thumbs up to a comment which isnt actually true just to have a dig at someone with a different opinion from yours. Ha

 

No, I contribute more that that but I always wonder why Scots like you want to put down your country at every opportunity. Scotland has great potential and we can do better if we could govern ourselves.

[davemclaren]

I respect everyones opinion

 

 

You know your clutching at straws, 301 votes or something pathetic like that.

 

The 56% in favour are 56% of 301 people who do not know whats best for Scotland.

 

I would guess alot are the braveheart brigade, brainwashed by historically innacurate movies who dont know the first thing about history or politics.

 

The majority dont want independence, this is obvious. The only people who do are the vocal minority with the chip on their shoulder. And of course the SNP.

 

[Cabbie754]

Nobody is putting their country down. If your pro Union your anti Scottish? Narrow minded much?

 

Ever though that unionists can be narrow minded? Broaden your horizons.

[Guest King]

 

Nothing wrong with stating facts.

[davemclaren]

Nothing wrong with stating facts.

 

[Guest King]

Ever though that unionists can be narrow minded? Broaden your horizons.

 

Im sure they can be. Im not though

[Cabbie754]

I have no chip on my shoulder. Im proud to be both British and Scottish.

 

Anyway, how can you be Scottish and British as being British includes Scotland? What you are saying is that you are Scottish, English, Welsh, Northern Irish then Scottish again.

 

You are either Scottish or British, make your mind up You can't be both

[Guest King]

Anyway, how can you be Scottish and British as being British includes Scotland? What you are saying is that you are Scottish, English, Welsh, Northern Irish then Scottish again.

 

You are either Scottish or British, make your mind up You can't be both

 

That makes no sense. I assume you are joking? You cant feel British and Scottish? That comes as a shock.

 

Are you watching BBC1 at the moment mate

[Cabbie754]

That makes no sense. I assume you are joking? You cant feel British and Scottish? That comes as a shock.

 

Are you watching BBC1 at the moment mate

 

Think about it and come back in ten minutes. It might just sink in. You can't be both, it's one or the other.

[DC_92]

If you're pro independence you're part of the braveheart brigade, brainwashed by historically innacurate movies who dont know the first thing about history or politics? Narrow minded much?

 

Fixed that for you.

 

[Guest King]

Fixed that for you.

 

 

I said 'alot' of people. Not all. From my own personal experience, what I said is true. And if you just watched BBC1's programme, a debate about the history of Scotland, my point is backed up. Braveheart is historically innacurate, yet it is shown at schools to history pupils as if it was fact. They then went out and asked people on the streets of Glasgow and Dundee who their Scottish hero was, alot said William Wallace. Why? Because of a movie. One even went on to say 'William Wallace cause we hate the English eh'. Thats no attitude to have IMO. Nothing wrong with some national identiy, appreciating Scottish heritage etc. I know I do. but its comments like that which get right up my nose.

[Auld Reekin']

I said 'alot' of people. Not all. From my own personal experience, what I said is true. And if you just watched BBC1's programme, a debate about the history of Scotland, my point is backed up. Braveheart is historically innacurate, yet it is shown at schools to history pupils as if it was fact. They then went out and asked people on the streets of Glasgow and Dundee who their Scottish hero was, alot said William Wallace. Why? Because of a movie. One even went on to say 'William Wallace cause we hate the English eh'. Thats no attitude to have IMO. Nothing wrong with some national identiy, appreciating Scottish heritage etc. I know I do. but its comments like that which get right up my nose.

 

You get a lot of thick-as-mince unionists as well you know. In fact, some of them regularly post on here.

[Guest King]

You get a lot of thick-as-mince unionists as well you know. In fact, some of them regularly post on here.

 

There are numpties everywhere mate. Not sure who you meen though, im not aware of any on here. Unless that is a dig at me

[Drew Busby !]

One Scotland, many cultures

[Boab Mugabe]

The Lisbon Treaty became effective as of 3 minutes ago.

 

Farewell sovereignty.

 

[DC_92]

I said 'alot' of people. Not all. From my own personal experience, what I said is true. And if you just watched BBC1's programme, a debate about the history of Scotland, my point is backed up. Braveheart is historically innacurate, yet it is shown at schools to history pupils as if it was fact. They then went out and asked people on the streets of Glasgow and Dundee who their Scottish hero was, alot said William Wallace. Why? Because of a movie. One even went on to say 'William Wallace cause we hate the English eh'. Thats no attitude to have IMO. Nothing wrong with some national identiy, appreciating Scottish heritage etc. I know I do. but its comments like that which get right up my nose.

 

Really? Just "alot"(sic) of them?

 

"The majority dont want independence, this is obvious. The only people who do are the vocal minority with the chip on their shoulder."

 

Narrow minded much?

[Auld Reekin']

There are numpties everywhere mate. Not sure who you meen though, im not aware of any on here. Unless that is a dig at me

 

[Guest King]

Really? Just "alot"(sic) of them?

 

"The majority dont want independence, this is obvious. The only people who do are the vocal minority with the chip on their shoulder."

 

Narrow minded much?

 

You seem desperate to prove your point. I have obviously offended you with a comment I dont 100% believe is true myself. But I will put it this way, a large number of the people looking for independence are after it for the wrong reasons.

[Brian_1874]

The Lisbon Treaty became effective as of 3 minutes ago.

 

Farewell sovereignty.

 

 

Take a look at your drivers license no Union Jack only the European Flag.

Before any referendum on Scottish Independence there should be an immediate referendum on British sovereignty IMO.

[Guest King]

 

Who do you meen out of interest? If you dont meen me I have no idea

[DC_92]

You seem desperate to prove your point. I have obviously offended you with a comment I dont 100% believe is true myself. But I will put it this way, a large number of the people looking for independence are after it for the wrong reasons.

 

I'm not offended at all. I'm just pointing out the obvious contradiction.

[Drew Busby !]

I said 'alot' of people. Not all. From my own personal experience, what I said is true. And if you just watched BBC1's programme, a debate about the history of Scotland, my point is backed up. Braveheart is historically innacurate, yet it is shown at schools to history pupils as if it was fact. They then went out and asked people on the streets of Glasgow and Dundee who their Scottish hero was, alot said William Wallace. Why? Because of a movie. One even went on to say 'William Wallace cause we hate the English eh'. Thats no attitude to have IMO. Nothing wrong with some national identiy, appreciating Scottish heritage etc. I know I do. but its comments like that which get right up my nose.

 

I agree with you on that score.

 

Nothing wrong though with getting kids intrested in history through some blood and guts (albeit historically inaccurate) films. When we started doing Latin at school, I remember we all got sat in front of The Fall Of The Roman Empire (James Mason, Alec Guiness, Christopher Plummer etc). Lot of bloody nonsense of course but I guess it was meant to spark some intrest in the space between our ears. Didnae work in my case, I ditched Latin after 2 years Good film though !

[Guest King]

Think about it and come back in ten minutes. It might just sink in. You can't be both, it's one or the other.

 

That is completely mental, where do you actually get this rubbish from?

 

Please explain your logic.

[ADAM]

Anyway, how can you be Scottish and British as being British includes Scotland? What you are saying is that you are Scottish, English, Welsh, Northern Irish then Scottish again.

 

You are either Scottish or British, make your mind up You can't be both

 

Of course you can - who are you to say what people can and can't be. I'm not only Scottish and British but also a European.

 

Can't stand nationalism and its divisive tribalism thinking of 'if you're not with us, you're against us'.

 

Incidentally, will we know what size of the current ?800billion UK debt Scotland will be crippled with prior to voting on independence?

 

“Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception.”

George Orwell

[Therapist]

Not so mate, remember this http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60405 from a few weeks ago ? 56% in favour. Not too shabby. Its just that there are a small number of very repetitive voices on here, thats all

 

 

 

 

Ah, the hugely representative and scientific KB poll. I wondered when it would get a mention.

 

I don't know why YouGov and the like don't save money whilst getting much better results by simply doing all their polls on here.

[Therapist]

Nothing wrong though with getting kids intrested in history through some blood and guts (albeit historically inaccurate) films.

 

Like they did in the Third Reich?

 

I'm actually surprised the SNP hasn't remade one of Nazi Germany's most disurbing films to show in schools. They could call it "The Eternal Englishman".

[Peebo]

Anyway, how can you be Scottish and British as being British includes Scotland? What you are saying is that you are Scottish, English, Welsh, Northern Irish then Scottish again.

 

You are either Scottish or British, make your mind up You can't be both

 

One of the most baffling posts I've ever read on here. I can only assume I am not in on the joke.

[Ossory_Jambo]

Like they did in the Third Reich?

 

I'm actually surprised the SNP hasn't remade one of Nazi Germany's most disurbing films to show in schools. They could call it "The Eternal Englishman".

 

Surely you mean the BNP or was it just a typo?

[Drew Busby !]

Ah, the hugely representative and scientific KB poll. I wondered when it would get a mention.

 

I don't know why YouGov and the like don't save money whilst getting much better results by simply doing all their polls on here.

 

As I've already said many many times. The poll is basically a BIT OF FUN. It doesn't represent the population of Edinburgh, Lothian or Scotland. The population of JKB is skewed towards a predominantly male, predominantly young to middle aged group of people, the vast majority of whom, support Hearts and who have access to computers. It does not extrapolate to the wider population. "It is what it is".

 

The voting result came about, because those JKBrs who are motivated enough to vote and prefer independence ... outnumber those who were motivated enough to vote and prefer the status-quo. You are either a member of that latter minority group, or you weren't motivated to vote at all (whichever, its your right either way).

 

I trust this clarifies matters and will happily explain the result again to anyone else requires assistance.

[Des' Dad]

The SNP question to be put to a referendum would be "Do you agree to allow negotiations to take place with the UK government to allow Scottish independence?". If a yes vote is obtained the negotiations would then take place, BUT what nobody is saying is that the outcome of those negotiations would then be put to the people of Scotland by either a Scottish or UK government to see if the agreement reached was acceptable to the people. It might even have to be put to the people of the UK as it would affect all the people of these islands.

[Guest King]

Of course you can - who are you to say what people can and can't be. I'm not only Scottish and British but also a European.

 

Can't stand nationalism and its divisive tribalism thinking of 'if you're not with us, you're against us'.

 

Incidentally, will we know what size of the current ?800billion UK debt Scotland will be crippled with prior to voting on independence?

 

?Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception.?

George Orwell

 

One of the most baffling posts I've ever read on here. I can only assume I am not in on the joke.

 

Exactly. I am as confused as both of you are with Cabbies comment. I assume he realised his theory was childish and inaccurate which is why he did not take up the opportunity to explain it any further. You cant be Scottish and British - PAH. One of the strangest things I have heard an adult come out with. You cant be French and European, you cant be a Texan and an American. Bonkers.

[auldbauldfan]

I said 'alot' of people. Not all. From my own personal experience, what I said is true. And if you just watched BBC1's programme, a debate about the history of Scotland, my point is backed up. Braveheart is historically innacurate, yet it is shown at schools to history pupils as if it was fact. They then went out and asked people on the streets of Glasgow and Dundee who their Scottish hero was, alot said William Wallace. Why? Because of a movie. One even went on to say 'William Wallace cause we hate the English eh'. Thats no attitude to have IMO. Nothing wrong with some national identiy, appreciating Scottish heritage etc. I know I do. but its comments like that which get right up my nose.

 

Unfortunately, I missed the programme you refer to and would be grateful if you could clarify a couple of points:

 

1. "Braveheart" the movie was historically innacurate - accepted.

 

2. It is shown in schools to history pupils as as fact. Was this generally accepted by all concerned in the programme? I would be very surprised if this was the case, and am confident that pupils are well briefed that the content is intended as entertainment and nothing more.

 

3. Of the people interviewed who nominated William Wallace as their hero,

did they all quote "Braveheart" as their reason for doing so?

 

Comments such as "we hate the English" get up my nose also but the fact that some numpty comes out with such nonsense is no argument against the many serious and valid points made in favour of independence by the vast majority of its proponents.

 

The fact that "Braveheart" was a piece of hokum should not detract from the achievements of Sir William Wallace who is justifiably seen as a patriotic hero of his day and I would suggest he is more deserving of the "Greatest Scot" tag than some of his fellow nominees - I give you David Tennant and that other great Scot, J K Rowling!

 

Some of us had heard of Sir William Wallace before we had heard of Mel Gibson.

[Hugh Phamism]

Unfortunately, I missed the programme you refer to and would be grateful if you could clarify a couple of points:

 

1. "Braveheart" the movie was historically innacurate - accepted.

 

2. It is shown in schools to history pupils as as fact. Was this generally accepted by all concerned in the programme? I would be very surprised if this was the case, and am confident that pupils are well briefed that the content is intended as entertainment and nothing more. One pupil said this wa sthe case, but a 'friend' contradicted it

 

3. Of the people interviewed who nominated William Wallace as their hero,

did they all quote "Braveheart" as their reason for doing so? No

 

Comments such as "we hate the English" get up my nose also but the fact that some numpty comes out with such nonsense is no argument against the many serious and valid points made in favour of independence by the vast majority of its proponents.

 

The fact that "Braveheart" was a piece of hokum should not detract from the achievements of Sir William Wallace who is justifiably seen as a patriotic hero of his day and I would suggest he is more deserving of the "Greatest Scot" tag than some of his fellow nominees - I give you David Tennant and that other great Scot, J K Rowling!

 

Some of us had heard of Sir William Wallace before we had heard of Mel Gibson. Agreed

 

Me thinks that many unionists are running scared.......

[NEILY1874]

Sick off waiting.....

 

nothing would make me more happier than independence. it would be dream come true.

 

 

its funny,the vast majority of people i have met or know/known want independence. I have noticed though that on this forum iam in the minority.

 

Not according to every poll we've had on here about it youre not.

[Patrick Bateman]

There is a clamour from some folk who want to completely deny that William Wallace was an important figure in defining the Scottish nation. That he is just a figure for sabre-rattlers and anti-English sentiment... I'd say it's pretty base to see him in such terms. If the English had been allowed to conquer us (and that WAS at stake) then what elements of our culture, language and society would remain now? It's a shame that people feel the need to invoke a 700 year old figure to try to define a nation, when there is so much else we have to argue for.