Disgrace

[The Doctor]

But there are also the pensioners who don't have a pot to **** in, who go cold in the winter and decide when to eat....or when they can afford to.

 

Lets put the 9 billion foreign aid to one side for a moment, how many other 100's of millions are squandered on idiotic schemes while at the same time our old folks cannot afford to eat or stay warm.

 

Where? Do you actually know any?

 

I worked amongst the apparently poorest people in Edinburgh for seven and a half years and I can assure you that there is no need whatsoever for any pensioner in this country to miss a meal or struggle to stay warm.

 

I asked about 7 hours for some facts on this, how much is the minimum guaranteed income for an OAP, taking into account pension credits etc?

 

I'm not saying that they don't deserve more, of course they do, but is what they are entitled to not enough to keep fed and warm? How much are they entitled to?

[Sheriff Fatman]

It would pay in the long term.

 

No it wouldn't, it would cost vast amounts of money in the short term, and a large amount of tax revenue in the long term. Plus it would seriously deplete the work force and skill base.

[The Doctor]

Never mind, I found it myself.

 

Pension Credit is an entitlement for people aged 60 or over living in Great Britain. This could mean extra money for you every week. Pension Credit guarantees everyone aged 60 and over an income of at least:

 

* ?130.00 a week if you are single

* ?198.45 a week if you have a partner

 

Also, if you or your partner are 65 or over you may be rewarded for saving for your retirement, up to:

 

* ?20.40 if you are single

* ?27.03 a week if you have a partner

 

From the pension service website.

 

I agree it's not a huge amount, but it's enough to live on, in reasonable comfort. If you didn't have a house you'd get housing benefit on top of that and cold weather payments, free TV license, bus pass etc etc etc.

 

It could be better, but it's not bad.

[Professor.Arturo]

No it wouldn't, it would cost vast amounts of money in the short term, and a large amount of tax revenue in the long term. Plus it would seriously deplete the work force and skill base.

What skill base? shopkeepers, waiters, kebab chefs etc

Are you suggesting the worlds top engineers, doctors etc come from the third world?!?

[Professor.Arturo]

Where? Do you actually know any?

 

I worked amongst the apparently poorest people in Edinburgh for seven and a half years and I can assure you that there is no need whatsoever for any pensioner in this country to miss a meal or struggle to stay warm.

 

I asked about 7 hours for some facts on this, how much is the minimum guaranteed income for an OAP, taking into account pension credits etc?

 

I'm not saying that they don't deserve more, of course they do, but is what they are entitled to not enough to keep fed and warm? How much are they entitled to?

I'd need to check up how many old folk died from the cold in the last few years..

or maybe it was none, and just my imagination.

[Tazio]

What skill base? shopkeepers, waiters, kebab chefs etc

Are you suggesting the worlds top engineers, doctors etc come from the third world?!?

 

Well you've just flaunted your racism for all to see.

 

I see people every day who are "British" that don't even want jobs and live on benefits. But that's OK as they are British.

[The Doctor]

What skill base? shopkeepers, waiters, kebab chefs etc

Are you suggesting the worlds top engineers, doctors etc come from the third world?!?

 

Reprehensible post.

[Sheriff Fatman]

What skill base? shopkeepers, waiters, kebab chefs etc

Are you suggesting the worlds top engineers, doctors etc come from the third world?!?

 

You might want to look at the number of top level doctors who hail from the Indian subcontinent, or the number of incredibly skilled computer programers and engineers who hail from the Middle East and China.

[The Doctor]

I'd need to check up how many old folk died from the cold in the last few years..

or maybe it was none, and just my imagination.

 

I never claimed that, I have said that there is no need for this to happen as OAPs are adequately cared for, provided they spend the money they are given and are given the support to claim all they are entitled to.

 

Do you actually know what you are posting about or do you just repeat what the Fuhrer says?

[Guest Roop]

What skill base? shopkeepers, waiters, kebab chefs etc

Are you suggesting the worlds top engineers, doctors etc come from the third world?!?

 

That post is wrong in so many ways. Infact, everytime I read it I find myself crashing through barriers of wrongness.

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong..

[I.J]

What skill base? shopkeepers, waiters, kebab chefs etc

Are you suggesting the worlds top engineers, doctors etc come from the third world?!?

 

I've stayed out of the road for a while - but jesus bloody christ.

[Guest Roop]

I've stayed out of the road for a while - but jesus bloody christ.

 

It's just so...wrong.

 

 

It's wrong!

[shaun.lawson]

Never mind, I found it myself.

 

Pension Credit is an entitlement for people aged 60 or over living in Great Britain. This could mean extra money for you every week. Pension Credit guarantees everyone aged 60 and over an income of at least:

 

* ?130.00 a week if you are single

* ?198.45 a week if you have a partner

 

Also, if you or your partner are 65 or over you may be rewarded for saving for your retirement, up to:

 

* ?20.40 if you are single

* ?27.03 a week if you have a partner

 

From the pension service website.

 

I agree it's not a huge amount, but it's enough to live on, in reasonable comfort. If you didn't have a house you'd get housing benefit on top of that and cold weather payments, free TV license, bus pass etc etc etc.

 

It could be better, but it's not bad.

 

Is it? Take out rent and utilties from ?130 a week, and what does that leave? Enough to feed someone, sure; but enough to keep them warm too? I'm not at all sure about that.

[Professor.Arturo]

You might want to look at the number of top level doctors who hail from the Indian subcontinent, or the number of incredibly skilled computer programers and engineers who hail from the Middle East and China.

Dont forget Dubai, built with Arab money granted, but the top people are European, Australian, American and Japanese.......so my point is, whats your point?

I keep getting hit with the racist tag, I worked in Abu Dhabi for close on 9 years, hardly a work destination for a racist? (but I do miss the Ally Pally)

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

DEY TUK MY BEERS

[Guest Roop]

Dont forget Dubai, built with Arab money granted, but the top people are European, Australian, American and Japanese.......so my point is, whats your point?

I keep getting hit with the racist tag, I worked in Abu Dhabi for close on 9 years, hardly a work destination for a racist? (but I do miss the Ally Pally)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hBTqgCGnhU

[Ulysses]

Is it? Take out rent and utilties from ?130 a week, and what does that leave? Enough to feed someone, sure; but enough to keep them warm too? I'm not at all sure about that.

 

However much or little you think it is, it's what my 70-year old aunt is entitled to. She left here in 1961, and worked in England for almost all her adult life. She paid her dues for more than 40 years.

 

How much would the BNP let her have by way of a "generous settlement" before putting her on a plane at Gatwick?

[Tazio]

Is it? Take out rent and utilties from ?130 a week, and what does that leave? Enough to feed someone, sure; but enough to keep them warm too? I'm not at all sure about that.

 

That's what my mother lives on. She does OK. Fair enough she doesn't drink or smoke but she can live on it without missing meals and has the family round for a meal once a week.

[shaun.lawson]

That's what my mother lives on. She does OK. Fair enough she doesn't drink or smoke but she can live on it without missing meals and has the family round for a meal once a week.

 

Interesting. If someone's living by themselves and doesn't own their own place, what sort of figure rent are we talking about, or does housing benefit make a huge difference?

[Diane]

I loved this comment on the page in the OP:

 

"Many old age pensioners used to go to the bingo halls and clubs for evenings out, both to socialise and for some free warmth without having to dig even deeper into their pockets.

 

Then there was the smoking ban plus the general breakdown of law and order leaving them terrified to go out. The bingo clubs are closing at a terrifying rate and doubtless some of them are being turned into mosque's too.

 

Meanwhile, our government gives away billions to foreigners and allows millions of them to flood into our country to milk our benefits system, taking what otherwise could be given to our old folk and boasting that they are going to take over what's left of our country.

 

Get these sick abusers of old folk out of Westminster AND local politics!

 

Vote BNP June4th! Reclaim your country."

 

Oh my God! It's the smoking ban's fault! The bingo halls are closing at a terrifying rate and some of them are being turned into.... gasp.... mosques! I couldn't bring myself to repeat the apostrophe.

 

The obvious humour aside, I'm still amazed by the whole concept of "foreigners" and "your country". My surname indicates clear Norse heritage. Should I head off back to Sweden? Despite being born in the sixties in the bedroom of a council flat in Gracemount?

[Tazio]

Interesting. If someone's living by themselves and doesn't own their own place, what sort of figure rent are we talking about, or does housing benefit make a huge difference?

 

I've not a clue what a pensioner would pay for council rent. I know tha tafter rent etc there wouldn't be a lot left. But older people are a lot more sensible with money than our generation and cook real food and so on. My Mum makes a load of soup, stew etc every weekend and fills her freezer. And sure there are pensioners having a hard time but there are also younger people struggling on minimum wage.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Dont forget Dubai, built with Arab money granted, but the top people are European, Australian, American and Japanese.......so my point is, whats your point?

I keep getting hit with the racist tag, I worked in Abu Dhabi for close on 9 years, hardly a work destination for a racist? (but I do miss the Ally Pally)

 

Your right, it's a destination for those that like to earn tax free.

 

It isn't exactly well known as a hub of top level medical specialists and engineers though. Most of them work in Europe and North America, and quite a large number of them come from countries other than the one they work in.

[Tazio]

I worked in Abu Dhabi for close on 9 years, hardly a work destination for a racist? (but I do miss the Ally Pally)

 

So you went to a foreign country to take their cash?

[Heaven98]

I've stayed out of the road for a while - but jesus bloody christ.

 

Quite a staggering level of ignorance, isn't it?

[Rab]

Griffin's stance on one of the most important episodes of the twentieth century - perhaps even of all human history - renders his credibility to comment on other issues null and void.

 

This quote surprised me.

 

As bad as the holocaust was, there are many many events in human history that are far worse. I can think of at least one in this century, and one far closer to home, and many more in others.

 

Don't get carried away Shaun. The holocaust was atrocious, but mankind has committed far worse atrocities.

[Rab]

As a kind of side note to all of the above, let me give you my perspective, as I am an immigrant where I live.

 

I'm white so that probably greases a lot of wheels. I've never experienced what I would call racism in 10 years here.

 

But I have experienced what people in the UK call racism when applied to those from outside the UK.

 

In my mind, I'm the outsider, and it is up to me to integrate with the society I have chosen to join. People frequently are unable to understand me when I speak, but I choose to repeat what I say slower so that they can. It's up to me to be understood, not up to them to understand me.

 

People call me Irish, Australian, Polish, English (and I can assure you that one gets the blood going) even after I've told them I'm Scottish. People who have known me for years, and are completely clear on the fact I'm Scottish still ask me what I'm doing for St Patricks Day. I've come across everything from whats the Queen like in person to someone shoving a bucket in my face telling me they're collecting for the IRA.

 

So, based on the above, Americans are completely racist.

 

If you follow the left wing tabloid view that is.

 

Personally, I don't. It's not a black and white situation, in the US or the UK. In both countries there are immigrants that contribute to society, and immigrants that don't. In both countries there are indigenous people that contribute to society, and those that don't.

 

The fact that opinion is divided into indigenous/immigrant people are bad/good is an indictment of our society as a whole, and the left wing press are equally as culpable for their politically correct defence of minorities as the right wing press are for their nationalistic defence of "citizens".

 

There's nothing wrong with saying the British government should make sure that British pensioners are ok, and the fact that the OP linked to the BNP website does not change that fact.

[shaun.lawson]

This quote surprised me.

 

As bad as the holocaust was, there are many many events in human history that are far worse. I can think of at least one in this century, and one far closer to home, and many more in others.

 

Don't get carried away Shaun. The holocaust was atrocious, but mankind has committed far worse atrocities.

 

This is why I used the word "perhaps", Rab. Purely in terms of the Twentieth Century, the Cambodian Killing Fields and Armenian genocide immediately spring to mind as comparable; then you could broaden it out into the entire Nazi-Soviet war in the East or, indeed, the hideous slaughter of the Great War. Then there were the many millions who died under Stalin or Mao. I'm well aware this isn't a competition!

 

My point was merely that the Holocaust was clearly extremely significant and important; and that Nick Griffin has publicly denied many of the documented facts behind it.

[Rab]

This is why I used the word "perhaps", Rab. Purely in terms of the Twentieth Century, the Cambodian Killing Fields and Armenian genocide immediately spring to mind as comparable; then you could broaden it out into the entire Nazi-Soviet war in the East or, indeed, the hideous slaughter of the Great War. Then there were the many millions who died under Stalin or Mao. I'm well aware this isn't a competition!

 

My point was merely that the Holocaust was clearly extremely significant and important; and that Nick Griffin has publicly denied many of the documented facts behind it.

 

I'm aware it's not a competition, but I'd suggest adding the word "perhaps" was a bit naughty as you added an implication without actually adding it!

 

The Holocaust was bad enough, it doesn't need exaggerating.

 

As a neutral observer, I'd also suggest that you're on a hiding to nothing. With no comment on the BNP, I'd still say following a political party does not bind you to every single view of that party's leader.

[djf]

In your opinion, what makes a person British?

 

Morning,

 

Don't think RC responded to this yet.

[The Doctor]

Is it? Take out rent and utilties from ?130 a week, and what does that leave? Enough to feed someone, sure; but enough to keep them warm too? I'm not at all sure about that.

 

If that was all your income housing benefit would cover all of your rent, as I said it's means tested and you'd have to apply, but if you were getting pension credits, because you didn't have an income from a private pension, investments or other, you would get housing benefit which would cover your rent.

 

You can't say 'take out utilities' and then say you don't have enough to keep warm, utilities would include leccy and gas, so if you take that out as something you have to pay, you're warm right?

 

Rent on a one or two bedroom council house in Edinburgh, is about ?50-?60 a fortnight. Where you get that house is your luck.

 

I have more to say on all if this, but I have to go and do some work.

[Denny Crane]

Apparently Ratcatcher didn't sleep too well last night due to having a 'nightmare'.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbUtL_0vAJk

[Ulysses]

There's nothing wrong with saying the British government should make sure that British pensioners are ok, and the fact that the OP linked to the BNP website does not change that fact.

 

No, but as you well know it changes the meaning attached to the policy. My 70-year old aunt is a pensioner. She's not a British pensioner. The OP hasn't explained why she will be asked to leave the UK after almost five decades working and paying her taxes - or what her "generous settlement" will be.

[The White Cockade]

with the large number of Indian, Pakistani, South African, Iraqi etc doctors and West Indian, Phillipino nurses etc in the NHS I think sending the "foreigners" home would be disastrous for British OAPs as there would be nobody to treat them

 

There are very valid points to be made re the way Britain is run today but linking the debate to the racist BNP Site loses the argument straight away

 

Stop linking WW2 with your racist arguments, we fought against extremism, not in support of it

 

A lot of these BNP/NF nutters would have been pro nazi and locked up in 1939 so please no more nonsense about their patriotism

[maroonlegions]

Apparently Ratcatcher didn't sleep too well last night due to having a 'nightmare'.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbUtL_0vAJk

 

 

 

Good to see that great man get a mention.

[King of the North]

What skill base? shopkeepers, waiters, kebab chefs etc

Are you suggesting the worlds top engineers, doctors etc come from the third world?!?

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

I think that comment sums up this entire thread - there is no point engaging in serious debate with you.

 

You are not really 48 years old, are you? Nearly half a century of life and world experience, and that is your standpoint? Jesus...

[BlackJAC?]

No matter how many "No doubt the hand wringers will be out in force blah blah blah" comments he churns out, the guy is a racist plain and simple. And like I said earlier in the thread I'm surprised there's people on here still trying to argue the toss with him. Stupidity doesn't discriminate when it comes to age so whether he's 18 or 48 is neither here nor there.

 

Just look at the comment you quoted to see the mentality that you're up against. It's an offensive comment and surprised it hasn't been removed.

[BlackJAC?]

Also, with this thread being a prime example, these people usually start out with semi-moderate povs, as to be taken seriously, but as sure as the day is long, it doesn't usually take long before the real ignorance appears.

[Nicholas Brody]

What skill base? shopkeepers, waiters, kebab chefs etc

Are you suggesting the worlds top engineers, doctors etc come from the third world?!?

 

http://royalsociety.org/news.asp?year=&id=5360

[hate_hibs]

What skill base? shopkeepers, waiters, kebab chefs etc

Are you suggesting the worlds top engineers, doctors etc come from the third world?!?

 

My ooh my, you really are a typical right wing knob end..

 

Maby you should start keeping your right wing party view to your self cause you really do talk some ****e...

 

**** your BNP!

[Tazio]

http://royalsociety.org/news.asp?year=&id=5360

 

Lies. All lies.

 

Only white Europeans can be intelligent, any fule noes that!

[bighusref]

What skill base? shopkeepers, waiters, kebab chefs etc

Are you suggesting the worlds top engineers, doctors etc come from the third world?!?

 

I know it has been picked up on before and many times, but dear oh dear. Surely a contender for the worst post in the history of internet message boards.

 

It must be quite difficult to be in the BNP, there are so many intricate clauses that you seem to have to categorise those that you don't like. All that faff and circumventing logic to end with the conclusion that white is good and black is bad.

[BlackJAC?]

It would be interesting hearing his views regarding the mass immigrations that were seen during the 18th century in both the Americas and Australia. Oh noes, i forgot that doesn't fit into his arguments as the Aboriginal and native Americans populations have been well compensated. Just like Africa has been well compensated for our country raping their lands of trillions of pounds worth of natural resources, us[The Brits] decimating entire populations through the slave trade and still continuing to support those tin pot dictators as and when we require support on passing UN mandates.

 

Mate, the mess you're currently witnessing in countries such as Zimbabwe and The Congo is a direct result from past UK and French interference, so please go into detail why African problems are no longer 'our' problems?

[The Doctor]

Charity begins at home.

 

I hate that phrase, it's a lie and it's ignorant.

 

We live in a complex world, it begins with our relatives, extends to our local community, our town, nation and world. No part is seperate from another and what happens to one part affects the others. What you do at home affects how you feel about the people of Africa. How you respond to the needs of the people of Africa colours what you do at home. In fact it makes you who you are. You are not isolated, your family is not isolated, your town, your country is part of a larger system and you can't do anything in one part without it having an impact elsewhere.

 

I have friends who have been back and forward to Kenya over the past couple of years. They built a school in one of the poorest areas. In February they took about 40 boys, mainly from Livingston, out to help. They have raised just over ?100,000, ordinary men and boys who have done an extraordinary thing. It's had a profound effect on who they are. If you're interested you can read about it here; http://www.projectstedfast.co.uk/

 

Last year my wee sister spent two weeks in Sudan working in a hospital, teaching basic nursing care to the indigenous nurses. The hospital she worked with had no running water. Can you get your head around that? A hospital with no running water? She went out with MAI, you can read about them here; http://www.medic-assist.org/index.php It had an enormous impact on her and how she responds and engages with all people.

 

My father in law was in Mozambique a couple of years ago helping to build a surgical theatre in a place called Pebane. You can read about the project here; http://themoznet.blogspot.com/ The theatre is right at the bottom of the page, built from the container the supplies were shipped out in. Miraculous.

 

The difference these projects have made to ordinary people who've done extraordinary things is exactly the same as the difference it makes to us as a nation when we get involved in overseas aid. It has an effect on who we are, it colours who we are as a nation. I am happy to take pride in a nation like that, in fact, I'm a little ashamed that we don't do more. 0.7% of our GDP, someone quoted earlier in the thread. That's shameful really.

 

If charity really were to begin at home, we'd be doing more for our neighbours. People who say charity begins at home generally mean, you're getting nothing.

[shaun.lawson]

Charity begins at home.

 

I hate that phrase, it's a lie and it's ignorant.

 

We live in a complex world, it begins with our relatives, extends to our local community, our town, nation and world. No part is seperate from another and what happens to one part affects the others. What you do at home affects how you feel about the people of Africa. How you respond to the needs of the people of Africa colours what you do at home. In fact it makes you who you are. You are not isolated, your family is not isolated, your town, your country is part of a larger system and you can't do anything in one part without it having an impact elsewhere.

 

I have friends who have been back and forward to Kenya over the past couple of years. They built a school in one of the poorest areas. In February they took about 40 boys, mainly from Livingston, out to help. They have raised just over ?100,000, ordinary men and boys who have done an extraordinary thing. It's had a profound effect on who they are. If you're interested you can read about it here; http://www.projectstedfast.co.uk/

 

Last year my wee sister spent two weeks in Sudan working in a hospital, teaching basic nursing care to the indigenous nurses. The hospital she worked with had no running water. Can you get your head around that? A hospital with no running water? She went out with MAI, you can read about them here; http://www.medic-assist.org/index.php It had an enormous impact on her and how she responds and engages with all people.

 

My father in law was in Mozambique a couple of years ago helping to build a surgical theatre in a place called Pebane. You can read about the project here; http://themoznet.blogspot.com/ The theatre is right at the bottom of the page, built from the container the supplies were shipped out in. Miraculous.

 

The difference these projects have made to ordinary people who've done extraordinary things is exactly the same as the difference it makes to us as a nation when we get involved in overseas aid. It has an effect on who we are, it colours who we are as a nation. I am happy to take pride in a nation like that, in fact, I'm a little ashamed that we don't do more. 0.7% of our GDP, someone quoted earlier in the thread. That's shameful really.

 

If charity really were to begin at home, we'd be doing more for our neighbours. People who say charity begins at home generally mean, you're getting nothing.

 

Wonderful post, Sir. The final sentence especially is what I've thought when hearing that line trotted out over and over again.

 

Slightly off topic, but hopefully you'll humour me for a moment: your post made me think of two practicing Christians I've met in the past. One, a student here, was one of the kindest, humblest, most gentle people you could ever come across. He never raised his voice, and always spoke with quiet dignity; and on finishing his degree here, travelled to the former Soviet Union to work as a missionary. Not in the preaching way which alienates some; but always with self-effacement and self-awareness. Before he left, he left a copy of C. S. Lewis' Mere Christianity in my college pigeonhole: not in some daft effort to convert me, but purely as a moral guide, and I hope as some sort of compliment too.

 

Then there was someone else: an old friend of my best friend who we met for a drink in Islington. Sarah had been on the Alpha Course, and insisted it had changed her life massively: unfortunately, her whole existence now seemed to revolve around religion, and not in a good way. All the people she hung out with were devout Christians; and she even told my best friend and I we were going to hell for not being so! The worst bit of all, though, was when the subject of giving homeless people a bit of change came up. She said it was far better to pray for them than give charity to anyone: I could not get my head around that at all.

 

Some Christians, and more generally some people, know what's important in life and act accordingly. Others not only don't, but completely abdicate responsibility in the process. Such fatalism I cannot stomach.

[shaun.lawson]

 

As a neutral observer, I'd also suggest that you're on a hiding to nothing. With no comment on the BNP, I'd still say following a political party does not bind you to every single view of that party's leader.

 

Such a position is fine on most issues, Rab. But on the Holocaust? Ever wondered why no leader of any reputable political party anywhere in the Western world subscribes to Nick Griffin's bonkers opinions?

 

Taking what you say at face value, though, many of us have been happy to engage with Ratcatcher in what he thinks, as opposed to what his party leader thinks. Unfortunately, as many others have remarked, he rather spectacularly blew it with this nauseating post:

 

What skill base? shopkeepers, waiters, kebab chefs etc

Are you suggesting the worlds top engineers, doctors etc come from the third world?!?

 

A party leader who denies the Holocaust. A party member who spouts such racist nonsense as the above. QED. There's only one person who's on a hiding to nothing on this thread; suffice to say, it isn't me.

[Heaven98]

There's only one person who's on a hiding to nothing on this thread; suffice to say, it isn't me.

 

Well that makes for a change.

[shaun.lawson]

Well that makes for a change.

 

 

 

[Tazio]

Lies. All lies.

 

Only white Europeans can be intelligent, any fule noes that!

 

Can I amend that so it doesn't include Slavs?

[The Doctor]

Wonderful post, Sir. The final sentence especially is what I've thought when hearing that line trotted out over and over again.

 

Slightly off topic, but hopefully you'll humour me for a moment: your post made me think of two practicing Christians I've met in the past. One, a student here, was one of the kindest, humblest, most gentle people you could ever come across. He never raised his voice, and always spoke with quiet dignity; and on finishing his degree here, travelled to the former Soviet Union to work as a missionary. Not in the preaching way which alienates some; but always with self-effacement and self-awareness. Before he left, he left a copy of C. S. Lewis' Mere Christianity in my college pigeonhole: not in some daft effort to convert me, but purely as a moral guide, and I hope as some sort of compliment too.

 

Then there was someone else: an old friend of my best friend who we met for a drink in Islington. Sarah had been on the Alpha Course, and insisted it had changed her life massively: unfortunately, her whole existence now seemed to revolve around religion, and not in a good way. All the people she hung out with were devout Christians; and she even told my best friend and I we were going to hell for not being so! The worst bit of all, though, was when the subject of giving homeless people a bit of change came up. She said it was far better to pray for them than give charity to anyone: I could not get my head around that at all.

 

Some Christians, and more generally some people, know what's important in life and act accordingly. Others not only don't, but completely abdicate responsibility in the process. Such fatalism I cannot stomach.

 

Thanks Shaun, two interesting stories and two very different ways of reaching people. I'd like to think I'm more like the first (I have gifted Mere Christianity to several people in my life! It's a thing we do, for people we like!) but I know I have been like the second, particularly shortly after I first believed. I lost a good friend that way. Don't judge them too harshly, they probably just need to mature and work out how their faith works in the real world. It took me a while and I'm not there yet.

 

I'll finish by saying that I don't, for a second, think that Christians have a monopoly on good works. How much was raised in the end last month for Comic Relief? ?60 or 70 million. That level of generosity honestly moved me. Thankfully the vast majority of British people have a more balanced view of giving and of the benefits.

[Denny Crane]

Can I amend that so it doesn't include Slavs?

 

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