Disgrace

[felix]

I agree m8 schools are shocking wi the pc rubbish thats forced onto our kids by the trendy lefty teachers.I also will b voting BNP simply because of the multicultural disaster that Britain is fast becoming.I've lived and worked all over the place and people in scotland dont realise how lucky we are not having the problems that exist down south.[/QUOTE]

 

You actually have a valid point sir.

[shaun.lawson]

 

You actually have a valid point sir.

 

Except 'red killer' (charming username, that: reminds me of the delightful 'novoslayer' on the Guardian blogs)'s point owes rather a lot more to the demise of heavy industry than the colour of someone's skin.

[felix]

Except 'red killer' (charming username, that: reminds me of the delightful 'novoslayer' on the Guardian blogs)'s point owes rather a lot more to the demise of heavy industry than the colour of someone's skin.

 

I'm sure you're right Shaun...but "red killer" did make a point worth debating which was quickly shot down by reference to poor grammar and cheap preconceptions of "trendy lefty" clothing !?

 

There's been good points by both sides on this thread, but some issues from the far right, even some eminating from post #1 - have been ignored thus far.

[shaun.lawson]

I'm sure you're right Shaun...but "red killer" did make a point worth debating which was quickly shot down by reference to poor grammar and cheap preconceptions of "trendy lefty" clothing !?

 

There's been good points by both sides on this thread, but some issues from the far right, even some eminating from post #1 - have been ignored thus far.

 

It got shot down because he came across like an eejit - not least because he was agreeing with something said entirely sarcastically!

[felix]

It got shot down because he came across like an eejit - not least because he was agreeing with something said entirely sarcastically!

 

There's many a true word said in jest Shaun.

[Rab]

Heh! But the one thing I am prepared to give Ratcatcher credit for is he is (mostly) fairly polite: he doesn't go in for slanging matches, so most don't treat him in such regard. And of course, it's not just about attempting to educate him. It's also about making sure there's plenty of alternative information available in case anyone happened upon the thread, and found themselves sympathising with some of Ratcatcher's opinions without looking any deeper at the issues.

 

If we hadn't bothered to respond, his views and claims would just stand there unchallenged.

 

Shaun, what makes you think you - or anyone else on this thread - are in a position to "educate" anyone else?

 

Providing alternative information is perfectly sound, but "educating" is an entirely different thing.

 

FWIW, my opinions are completely different from Ratcatchers. They're pretty different from yours too, but probably not quite so.

 

But I see the value in differing opinions, and encourage those that have them. In a true democracy, there is no such thing as a "wrong" opinion, nobody is allowed to tell anyone else that they are wrong - far less "educate" them.

 

Though it has been couched in provocative terms that I don't agree with, it has been pointed out on this thread - fairly IMO - that anyone who doesn't follow the Scottish mainstream socialist thinking is instantly labeled a facist or a racist. Even the term right wing has a negative connotation to most people on here.

 

If we can't at least respect others opinions, then all the arguing about whether the BNP should exist is moot, as society will have become equally as bad. Any time members of society are ostracised for not following popular opinion - no matter what that opinion is - said society will suffer.

[davemclaren]

Any time members of society are ostracised for not following popular opinion - no matter what that opinion is - said society will suffer.

 

 

There are limits though. Some opinions are totally repugnant.

[shaun.lawson]

Shaun, what makes you think you - or anyone else on this thread - are in a position to "educate" anyone else?

 

Providing alternative information is perfectly sound, but "educating" is an entirely different thing.

 

FWIW, my opinions are completely different from Ratcatchers. They're pretty different from yours too, but probably not quite so.

 

But I see the value in differing opinions, and encourage those that have them. In a true democracy, there is no such thing as a "wrong" opinion, nobody is allowed to tell anyone else that they are wrong - far less "educate" them.

 

Though it has been couched in provocative terms that I don't agree with, it has been pointed out on this thread - fairly IMO - that anyone who doesn't follow the Scottish mainstream socialist thinking is instantly labeled a facist or a racist. Even the term right wing has a negative connotation to most people on here.

 

If we can't at least respect others opinions, then all the arguing about whether the BNP should exist is moot, as society will have become equally as bad. Any time members of society are ostracised for not following popular opinion - no matter what that opinion is - said society will suffer.

 

I see the value in differing opinions too, Rab. They're absolutely vital. I suspect you and I both subscribe to Voltaire's timeless quote that "I may hate what you say, but will defend with my life your right to say it", or words to that effect: it's what makes democracy what it is.

 

I've also respected Ratcatcher's opinion - but that doesn't mean I'm not going to disagree with it! If no-one ever pointed out when something racist was racist, such views would continue to be spouted ad infinitum with no recourse. Where has it been pointed out on this thread that "anyone who doesn't follow the mainstream Scottish socialist thinking is instantly labelled a fascist or a racist"? By whom? Sorry, but that's total nonsense, and victim mentality to boot.

 

Everyone'e free to say what they like, Rab: I'm not sure why you don't think so. And in terms of disagreeing with others, you do it just as much as anyone else. To quote you from another thread from last week:

 

Far, far too many calling it a black and white situation. A sad indictment of a society who read either the Daily Record or the Daily Mail religiously.

 

It's plain as day to anyone who takes a single moment to look at it objectively that it is a complex situation that cannot be resolved by saying "It was ra polis" or "It was ra Scousers".

 

Which represented a gross over-simplification of what was being debated not by others, but by you; and put you at odds with what the head of South Yorkshire Police had acknowledged only a couple of days earlier anyway. I bring this up not to have another debate on Hillsborough - we've done that, it's finished - but to show you're not quite the bastion of moderation and reason that you often portray yourself as. Which is no bad thing: you're only human, with your own views and differences, like anyone else, and I enjoy debating with you as a result.

[red killer]

It got shot down because he came across like an eejit - not least because he was agreeing with something said entirely sarcastically!

eejit ouch you reds really now how to hurt someone I would rather b called an eejit than b a red whos called shaun lol.Do you think your a moderator on here shamus oh I mean shaun telling people what they can and cant say a bit of a hitler are you not

[I.J]

eejit ouch you reds really now how to hurt someone I would rather b called an eejit than b a red whos called shaun lol.Do you think your a moderator on here shamus oh I mean shaun telling people what they can and cant say a bit of a hitler are you not

 

gd pnt m8, lol!!!!!1!

[Ulysses]

.....I would rather b called an eejit than b a red whos called shaun lol.

 

Why?

[Heaven98]

eejit ouch you reds really now how to hurt someone I would rather b called an eejit than b a red whos called shaun lol.Do you think your a moderator on here shamus oh I mean shaun telling people what they can and cant say a bit of a hitler are you not

 

Shaun ?noun, a male given name, form of John.

 

eejit - noun, pejorative, an idiot

[shaun.lawson]

eejit ouch you reds really now how to hurt someone I would rather b called an eejit than b a red whos called shaun lol.Do you think your a moderator on here shamus oh I mean shaun telling people what they can and cant say a bit of a hitler are you not

 

 

Keep digging. You're making my day.

[Jimmy McNulty]

This thread is ****ing depressing.

 

What I hate is this "imigrants stealing our jobs" bull****.

 

My wife's aunt -- who is a ****** in a loser job -- says this all the time. Without immigrants she'd still be a ****** in a loser job.

 

She doesn't understand that stopping immigration will not make her a rocket scientist.

 

****ing clown shoe.

[shaun.lawson]

This thread is ****ing depressing.

 

What I hate is this "imigrants stealing our jobs" bull****.

 

My wife's aunt -- who is a ****** in a loser job -- says this all the time. Without immigrants she'd still be a ****** in a loser job.

 

She doesn't understand that stopping immigration will not make her a rocket scientist.

 

****ing clown shoe.

 

In Oxford at around 7pm yesterday, I was waiting for my bus home along with a few others. Two of them were clearly from Africa: whether North or West African, I couldn't quite tell. They just waited quietly along with the rest of us - whereupon some drunken idiot spotted them, and launched into a disgusting, embarrassing tirade.

 

"Get the **** out of my country! I work, I pay my ****ing taxes - you get benefits, a ****ing house. Think that's good do you?"

 

He walked right up to them, leering in their faces, then flashed a lighter for some reason. All the way through, they just ignored him; after he'd gone, they smiled awkwardly. They were probably just embarrassed for him. But Jesus Christ. This racist ***** didn't know a thing about them - and you couldn't help but compare their dignified demeanour with his vile oafishness.

 

I'm proud this country has as much immigration as it does - but I'm also embarrassed we (like any other country I guess) produce filth like him. And I swear we have a political culture which is so obsessed with "scroungers" and "bogus asylum seekers" that we almost encourage such appalling ignorance. Ratcatcher's written before about white people receiving "second class treatment": I'd love him to tell me how often a white person gets subjected to such abuse while standing around waiting for a bus to take them home.

[Professor.Arturo]

In Oxford at around 7pm yesterday, I was waiting for my bus home along with a few others. Two of them were clearly from Africa: whether North or West African, I couldn't quite tell. They just waited quietly along with the rest of us - whereupon some drunken idiot spotted them, and launched into a disgusting, embarrassing tirade.

 

"Get the **** out of my country! I work, I pay my ****ing taxes - you get benefits, a ****ing house. Think that's good do you?"

 

He walked right up to them, leering in their faces, then flashed a lighter for some reason. All the way through, they just ignored him; after he'd gone, they smiled awkwardly. They were probably just embarrassed for him. But Jesus Christ. This racist ***** didn't know a thing about them - and you couldn't help but compare their dignified demeanour with his vile oafishness.

 

I'm proud this country has as much immigration as it does - but I'm also embarrassed we (like any other country I guess) produce filth like him. And I swear we have a political culture which is so obsessed with "scroungers" and "bogus asylum seekers" that we almost encourage such appalling ignorance. Ratcatcher's written before about white people receiving "second class treatment": I'd love him to tell me how often a white person gets subjected to such abuse while standing around waiting for a bus to take them home.

 

Point 1. I am absolutely speechless at that comment. But, Shaun, you are perfectly entitled to hold that view. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum on that so there is no point going down that road, as I doubt any of the two of us would give ground.

 

Point 2. What happened at the bus stop in Oxford is nothing short of disgusting! I get the feeling you are hinting at - because I am a nationalist I would approve of that sort of behaviour? Perhaps many people do have a preconcieved notion of what a BNP member is like, it would be wrong though Shaun. I dont doubt we have idiots and bufoons in the ranks (as do all parties) But surely you are not holding us responsible for some drunken moron at a bus stop? I have not done an in-depth study to whites being racially abused, but it does happen. I'm sure your scenario has been reversed in places like Bradford, Oldham, Leicester and areas of London. Please dont sound off as though all the immigrants in this country are lovely and diverse people, thats simply not true, if you believe otherwise you are naive.

 

You could be having a drink with me in a pub and you'd never know, I dont spout of about politics, race issues, religion etc in social surroundings, ever! these are my private views, not because I have any shame in being a member of the BNP (I feel the opposite in fact), but because debating on a messageboard is one thing, but trying to shove your views down peoples throats in a pub is something else, that would be rude and disrespectfull, no matter which 'wing' you lean toward.

 

I decided to end posting on this thread when the name calling started by the usual mob, all that they do is shout racist or other personal abusive nonsense. And to me, that signals the end of a debate, I have not typed any personal abuse to a poster, but personal abuse towards me due to my viewpoints must be within the rules, I'll need to go check, maybe I skipped over that part.

[Ulysses]

I decided to end posting on this thread when the name calling started by the usual mob, all that they do is shout racist or other personal abusive nonsense. And to me, that signals the end of a debate, I have not typed any personal abuse to a poster, but personal abuse towards me due to my viewpoints must be within the rules, I'll need to go check, maybe I skipped over that part.

 

I think that by and large people have handled themselves quite well in this debate. A few posts were removed, and a couple of members were warned or infracted by the moderators. Meanwhile, a small number of posts that could have been removed were left in place so as not to interrupt the flow of the debate, so all in all I think the moderators handled things quite well.

 

Apart from that, I suppose it's appropriate that the last word goes to the OP, who has indicated that the end of the debate was signalled. Thread closed.