more wages problems

[Seymour M Hersh]

I hadn't realises most clubs were now paying players monthly in the same way the office staff get paid. Perhaps it's something to look at doing.

[sked21]

We need to get this sorted so it really doesn't happen again. I couldn't care less what others thought about Hearts but it is pretty embarassing.

 

Although the most interesting part to me was that wages are around ?90,000 a wekk. That works out as ?4.68m a year. Almost a third of what was last reported which means we are certainly looking healthier on the wage front.

[portobellojambo1]

One of the few sensible posts on the thread. It does not matter how many hobos on the thread post it takes nothing away from the shambles of a way we seem to be dealing with wages at the club.

 

All those who see this as a non story may want to give a little thought to the non footballing staff who may not be getting paid on time. They will no doubt be on modest wages with bills waiting to get paid like the rest of us.

 

Feck them though eh as long as we can hound a couple of tramps that post on a internet forum.

 

I agree with this part of it Dazo, in that I would expect non payment of salaries to have more impact on the non playing staff employed by Hearts. However without re-reading the article I am sure when I read it last night it stated that the non playing staff had received their monthly salaries correctly last weekend.

 

As for shaun's comments re. me thinking it is a non event that would not affect the players I can only go by the feedback that was coming from the players, who when asked indicated they had been told that their wages had not been paid and would be in their accounts soon, and were cool with that. Unfortunately I do not possess the ability to get inside their heads to determine if they really meant that or were just saying it. However I certainly do not believe that the non payment of wages the original time was the reason we then went on a stinking run of results.

[portobellojambo1]

I hadn't realises most clubs were now paying players monthly in the same way the office staff get paid. Perhaps it's something to look at doing.

 

I am the reverse SMH, I didn't realise HMFC were paying their playing staff weekly until this all came out originally, I assumed that the players would receive their salaries on a monthly basis, and setting up a payroll system to transfer funds 12 times a year is a lot easier then setting it up to do it 52 times a year (much less chance of confusion, the system asks you which day of the month do you wish this processed you key in two digits and Bob's your uncle)

 

Paying people weekly went out in the 60's and 70's did it not.

[siegementality]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/2008/11/29/shock-as-hearts-fail-to-pay-players-wages-for-second-time-in-two-months-86908-20933419/

[Denny Crane]

@CorstoJohn

 

As a member of Ewen's profession, if he'd swept this story under the carpet and another paper obtained it, he would possibly run the risk of either being demoted or losing his job if his Editor at the Guardian knew he had deliberately suppressed a story as to not report anything bad on the team he supports? I believe not. Hence he's gone with it.

[shaun.lawson]

I agree with this part of it Dazo, in that I would expect non payment of salaries to have more impact on the non playing staff employed by Hearts. However without re-reading the article I am sure when I read it last night it stated that the non playing staff had received their monthly salaries correctly last weekend.

 

As for shaun's comments re. me thinking it is a non event that would not affect the players I can only go by the feedback that was coming from the players, who when asked indicated they had been told that their wages had not been paid and would be in their accounts soon, and were cool with that. Unfortunately I do not possess the ability to get inside their heads to determine if they really meant that or were just saying it. However I certainly do not believe that the non payment of wages the original time was the reason we then went on a stinking run of results.

 

Sure - I figured this was what you'd meant. It's a rare player who'd openly blame other factors for a poor run though - and I doubt it was just a coincidence, to be honest.

[sked21]

@CorstoJohn

 

As a member of Ewen's profession, if he'd swept this story under the carpet and another paper obtained it, he would possibly run the risk of either being demoted or losing his job if his Editor at the Guardian knew he had deliberately suppressed a story as to not report anything bad on the team he supports? I believe not. Hence he's gone with it.

 

I have a feeling Hearts may have been happy or even told him about it as he will publish it queitly without sensationalising it.

[shaun.lawson]

I am the reverse SMH, I didn't realise HMFC were paying their playing staff weekly until this all came out originally, I assumed that the players would receive their salaries on a monthly basis, and setting up a payroll system to transfer funds 12 times a year is a lot easier then setting it up to do it 52 times a year (much less chance of confusion, the system asks you which day of the month do you wish this processed you key in two digits and Bob's your uncle)

 

Paying people weekly went out in the 60's and 70's did it not.

 

But it's exactly what an organisation with unreliable cashflow would do, unfortunately.

[shaun.lawson]

We need to get this sorted so it really doesn't happen again. I couldn't care less what others thought about Hearts but it is pretty embarassing.

 

Although the most interesting part to me was that wages are around ?90,000 a wekk. That works out as ?4.68m a year. Almost a third of what was last reported which means we are certainly looking healthier on the wage front.

 

That was just players' wages though: it didn't account for the other staff.

[The Don]

Always just before a big game the proverbial hits the fan.

 

Last time this happened I tried defending the club at first against all the reptiles that where thrashing themslves into comas over it.

 

This time however it really is undefendble, Trying not to concentrate on it too much as would rather concentrate on the game but its not easy, as you just know it's going to be the talking point in the pubs and in the ground.

 

Only difference this time is the non-playing staff HAVE been paid, it is only the players who are supposedly late in being paid.

 

Once Forgiveable

Twice, and questions are now being raised and doubts and worries creeping in.

 

Have also looked on Hearts web site and their silence is deafening in all this, werent they quick to issue a statement the last time? surely this should be priority, for the fans at least, to have some communication passed onto us by the club on the day of a big match anyway.

 

It's just one debacle after another.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

We need to get this sorted so it really doesn't happen again. I couldn't care less what others thought about Hearts but it is pretty embarassing.

 

Although the most interesting part to me was that wages are around ?90,000 a wekk. That works out as ?4.68m a year. Almost a third of what was last reported which means we are certainly looking healthier on the wage front.

 

Sounds about right and with possibly more players to go in January this will make life alot easier financially.

 

I can understand why it appears that all Hearts' income is paid to UKIO Bankas, after all why own a bank and let another bank profit from your club's money?

 

The HBoS account here is nothing more than a conjuit with an overdraft of ?100k which Hearts are not allowed to go over because HBoS no longer have any security in place. This is a case of someone at UKIO Bankas not doing their sums properly. I would like to hear that Romanov will be as ruthless with the responsible party as he has been with some Hearts players and managers.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Great prepertation for a big match Hearts.

 

Well done.

[sked21]

That was just players' wages though: it didn't account for the other staff.

 

Yeah I know. But it will stop folk thinking we have a ?12m wage bill.

 

On that note, I take it the ?12m we spent on wages was all staff and not just players?

[132goals1958]

We need to get this sorted so it really doesn't happen again. I couldn't care less what others thought about Hearts but it is pretty embarassing.

Although the most interesting part to me was that wages are around ?90,000 a wekk. That works out as ?4.68m a year. Almost a third of what was last reported which means we are certainly looking healthier on the wage front.

 

That is the net figure after tax & NI. There is still the Inland Revenue payment to be made normally the 19th of the subsequent month. Considerng many players will have an element of their income taxed at the higher rate I think you can add a conservative 35% to the net amount

[siegementality]

I have a feeling Hearts may have been happy or even told him about it as he will publish it queitly without sensationalising it.

 

Is it beyond the relms of possibility that he just happens to be a journalist with enough integrity to report a story regardless of his footballing allegiance?

[portobellojambo1]

But it's exactly what an organisation with unreliable cashflow would do, unfortunately.

 

As I said shaun I have and had no idea how HMFC paid their staff, be it players or admin staff, I have no idea if paying weekly is a practice that was introduced on Romanov's arrival or is something HMFC have done since Jesus was a lad.

 

Although I do agree with what you said above re companies with cash flow problems, however if they looked into the logistics of it they would probably discover that the overheads mean it is probably costing them more to do it on a weekly basis than it would on a monthly basis. Given that the funds are coming in from Lithuania one has to assume that the transfer will be done from Euros to sterling, and certainly in my line of business we encourage overseas clients to take payments annually, because bank charges for such transactions can be fecking frightening, some people receive a pension payment and 25% of it is swallowed up before it gets into their hands.

 

Anyway time for me to stop f a n n y ing about on here, the pub is open and there is some serious alcohol needing to be swallowed today.

[shaun.lawson]

As I said shaun I have and had no idea how HMFC paid their staff, be it players or admin staff, I have no idea if paying weekly is a practice that was introduced on Romanov's arrival or is something HMFC have done since Jesus was a lad.

 

Although I do agree with what you said above re companies with cash flow problems, however if they looked into the logistics of it they would probably discover that the overheads mean it is probably costing them more to do it on a weekly basis than it would on a monthly basis.

 

Indeed. I'm in an, um, transitional cashflow phase at the moment (!), and know I'm spending more overall than if I was able to buy toiletries, food etc in bulk - but needs must.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

As I said shaun I have and had no idea how HMFC paid their staff, be it players or admin staff, I have no idea if paying weekly is a practice that was introduced on Romanov's arrival or is something HMFC have done since Jesus was a lad.

 

it's a football thing pj. players get paid each week, weekly win bonus etc....

 

agree it seems it would be easier to pay monthly. or for us, it might be easier not to pay at all.

[Guest zeeko1]

I thought the club said this situation would not occur again? When this sort of thing happens once in a business, be it a football club or a factory, it gets people worried. Twice and it sets alarm bells ringing. Something is clearly badly amiss.

[magicTs]

[/b]

 

That is the net figure after tax & NI. There is still the Inland Revenue payment to be made normally the 19th of the subsequent month. Considerng many players will have an element of their income taxed at the higher rate I think you can add a conservative 35% to the net amount

 

You can also add appearance money, signing on fees and bonus money which are not paid on a weekly basis.

[grunt]

Although the most interesting part to me was that wages are around ?90,000 a wekk. That works out as ?4.68m a year. Almost a third of what was last reported which means we are certainly looking healthier on the wage front.

 

Not sure you can make that assumption. The ?90k might just be the net wages payment which is just the amount the employees (players) get. On top of that you will have the taxes which Hearts as the employers need to deduct and pay over to HMRC. On the other hand players may be paid gross and account for the taxes themselves. Too little information to judge, I would say.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

The whole banking system worldwide has went tits-up with a lot of changes happening over the last 2-3 months.

 

There could, i agree, be other factors at work here also.

 

If it is a 'banking glitch' and not a money problem then they could be solved very easily in the future by having the emergency fund in a British Bank that i mentioned earlier.

 

 

Tbh I think its ridicolous that people keep up with this stance.

 

There are imo only 2 reasons this has happened

 

1) Cash flow problems

2) Incompetence

 

Either way is completely unacceptable

 

As for the person who said 90k a week wages thus salaries being 4.7m approx, dont forget NI,Tax, Signings on etc,bonuses, benefits in kind, pensions, if we are paying 90k a week to players then I dont think the salary cuts are anywere near what people thought

[grunt]

[/b]

 

That is the net figure after tax & NI. There is still the Inland Revenue payment to be made normally the 19th of the subsequent month. Considerng many players will have an element of their income taxed at the higher rate I think you can add a conservative 35% to the net amount

 

Sorry I didn't see this post when I posted the same thing.

[portobellojambo1]

Tbh I think its ridicolous that people keep up with this stance.

 

There are imo only 2 reasons this has happened

 

1) Cash flow problems

2) Incompetence

 

Either way is completely unacceptable

 

As for the person who said 90k a week wages thus salaries being 4.7m approx, dont forget NI,Tax, Signings on etc,bonuses, benefits in kind, pensions, if we are paying 90k a week to players then I dont think the salary cuts are anywere near what people thought

 

I think most of us had realised that the figure above was a net figure and not gross; given basic rate tax, NIC etc. I think it would be safer to determine that the wage bill is at least 3 times that (i.e. probably nearer ?14.2m, in fact given that many of the players will be in a high rate tax bracket I would think the end figure is even higher than that).

[Spellczech]

Tbh I think its ridicolous that people keep up with this stance.

 

There are imo only 2 reasons this has happened

 

1) Cash flow problems

2) Incompetence

 

Either way is completely unacceptable

 

As for the person who said 90k a week wages thus salaries being 4.7m approx, dont forget NI,Tax, Signings on etc,bonuses, benefits in kind, pensions, if we are paying 90k a week to players then I dont think the salary cuts are anywere near what people thought

 

Do players get paid during their summer holidays when they are doing nothing and the club is not getting any revenue because there are no matches?

[the stone rose]

I am the reverse SMH, I didn't realise HMFC were paying their playing staff weekly until this all came out originally, I assumed that the players would receive their salaries on a monthly basis, and setting up a payroll system to transfer funds 12 times a year is a lot easier then setting it up to do it 52 times a year (much less chance of confusion, the system asks you which day of the month do you wish this processed you key in two digits and Bob's your uncle)

 

Paying people weekly went out in the 60's and 70's did it not.

 

Most trade workers still get paid weekly. football was traditionally considered a trade job as well. though that is changing.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

Do players get paid during their summer holidays when they are doing nothing and the club is not getting any revenue because there are no matches?

 

 

I would imagine so, obviously bonuses etc would be lower, but given footballers are contracted I would assume they receive at least something.

 

If not I expect footballers would never sign deals over the summer and just use it to blackmail even larger wages every summer.

 

I could be wrong and its an interesting question but I am almost certain they will do.

 

I think its quite concerning that given the alleged cuts romanov has been driving our salaries seem to be so high still, I reckon we are talking 3 times as much as anyone outside the OF

[siegementality]

Do players get paid during their summer holidays when they are doing nothing and the club is not getting any revenue because there are no matches?

 

No, they come in for pre season training and to play friendlies for nothing.

[John S]

Its with grteat sadness that I read this thread.

 

Someone previously referred to the non footballing staff who are affected, and I agree that's a real issue, and very unfair. But lets not forget the footballers, many of whom are young and do not earn big money; they rely on a timely payment of wages as much as the next person.

 

Like many others on KB, I happen to know some people within the club, and I know that many are becoming disenfranchised. Fast forward a year or two when one of our young starts who is treated poorly just now, becomes the next big thing, the next Craig Gordon if you like in terms of transfer fees, is that kid going to be loyal to Hearts? or is he going to remember the times when his wages were not paid, when he incurred bank charges as a result, or when he was not paid the appropriate bonus payments he was properly due?

 

As I said, it makes me very sad.

[sked21]

My bad. Didn't even think of the tax etc.

[DavePDQ]

What Ewen says about HBOS not receiving the transfer of funds is correct. The stories about non payment last week were also true but UKIO rectified the problem on the same day so it didn't get past the rumour stage. I don't know why they haven't done the same this week. It's very worrying that this has now happened 2 weeks running.

 

I've mentioned this before and got abuse every time but there will be a huge clearout in January to help fund the remainder of the season. CO touched on that in his interview with Ewen through the week. Getting down towards a 50% wages ratio is essential and it won't be pretty. A lot of our kids are going to be chucked in at the deep end.

[Martin_T]

As others have alluded to, this really only becomes a major story if wages do not go into the players banks on Monday. It could simply be the case that the wages mis-payment was mis-calculated due to the recent rash of win bonuses that have had to be added! Whoever is responsible for this at the UBIG end should however seriously consider their position.

 

The funny thing about all this, is that after the recent victories and positive news coming out of the club, I said to my dad that such is life as a Hearts fan, we're due a kick in the baws sometime soon. Lo and behold, Hearts duly oblige.

 

Incidently, I find it difficult to believe that the weekly wage bill is ?90,000, when we have Kingston and Makela on the wage bill who if rumours are to be believed, would account for around a fifth of that.

[Bugsy Siegel]

I agree with this part of it Dazo, in that I would expect non payment of salaries to have more impact on the non playing staff employed by Hearts. However without re-reading the article I am sure when I read it last night it stated that the non playing staff had received their monthly salaries correctly last weekend.

 

As for shaun's comments re. me thinking it is a non event that would not affect the players I can only go by the feedback that was coming from the players, who when asked indicated they had been told that their wages had not been paid and would be in their accounts soon, and were cool with that. Unfortunately I do not possess the ability to get inside their heads to determine if they really meant that or were just saying it. However I certainly do not believe that the non payment of wages the original time was the reason we then went on a stinking run of results.

 

The non footballing staff have been paid, it's just the players wages thats not went into there accounts but will be there by Monday.

 

Could really do without all this before today's big game.

 

Come on Hearts get this sorted!

[Martin_T]

What Ewen says about HBOS not receiving the transfer of funds is correct. The stories about non payment last week were also true but UKIO rectified the problem on the same day so it didn't get past the rumour stage. I don't know why they haven't done the same this week. It's very worrying that this has now happened 2 weeks running.

 

I've mentioned this before and got abuse every time but there will be a huge clearout in January to help fund the remainder of the season. CO touched on that in his interview with Ewen through the week. Getting down towards a 50% wages ratio is essential and it won't be pretty. A lot of our kids are going to be chucked in at the deep end.

 

Care to explain why we are waiting until January to have the clearout then Dave? If we are simply paying off high earners, why not do so with the likes of Makela immediately? That is where the credibility of your argument falls down. I think Hearts are currently on circa 70 to 75% wages ratio, getting rid of Makela and Kingston, if there speculated wage packet is correct, will cut this down significantly.

 

I believe Hearts will consider any reasonable offer for a player come January as they have always done, however Romanov in his time at Hearts has always insisted on getting top dollar for any player sales. Whilst the banking industry is undoubtedly in decline (I work at the sharp end of it), it is naieve to think that Romanov will not have salted away enough personal wealth to ensure that he's going to start selling off his business assets on the cheap.

[Guest Fabuloso]

Yep, he's done us a favour really. Especially by releasing it so late in the day...

 

I'm not remotely worried about this turn of events but I really wish the club would stop handing them ammo like this. It's bad enough in the run up to an OF game, they'll think all their christmases have come at once....

 

No, of course I don't. And yes, it's a valid point but it's also a pretty old one now. There aren't many recent examples of bad news which is actually credible, hence why people may seem more inclined to believe in and focus on the positives this time. I don't need you to dig around looking for one, I know there aren't any decent examples to be found. That's the best news of all because it suggests we're going in the right direction.[/

 

redm - your words above - this gives me no pleasure....but how many times do the club have to undo the good onfield work? If Hearts wanted to market themselves properly I believe it wouldn't be too difficult to get the fans back onside. It almost looks deliberate..

[David Brent]

Eastern European banks often suffer such moneys transfer glitches when the US federal reserve contracts and American brokers lay off trading. That's what happened last time, and Lithuania's market reserve shut down waiting for clearance. This one was most likely caused by Thanksgiving over here(US). It'll delay paper confirmations by three business days. Thursday next week, or sooner if they realised in time. Eastern European deals like that are often wire transfers based on a phone call being mishandled by paper pushers.

 

The above is an interesting quote from another forum.

[DavePDQ]

On top of that you will have the taxes which Hearts as the employers need to deduct and pay over to HMRC.

 

HMRC haven't been paid for some time now. If they come riding over the hill any time soon we're in big trouble.

[DavePDQ]

Care to explain why we are waiting until January to have the clearout then Dave?

 

I don't know. I do know that four staff are being made redundant from December 31st. I'm sure you won't believe me (or won't want to believe me) but I'll tuck this post away in my favourites and remind you of it when the story appear in the papers. Maybe Ewen's mole will tell him and he can print it.

[Martin_T]

HMRC haven't been paid for some time now. If they come riding over the hill any time soon we're in big trouble.

 

HMRC are owed over ?3 billion by UK football clubs. There is nothing unusual there.

[Martin_T]

I don't know. I do know that four staff are being made redundant from December 31st. I'm sure you won't believe me (or won't want to believe me) but I'll tuck this post away in my favourites and remind you of it when the story appear in the papers. Maybe Ewen's mole will tell him and he can print it.

 

Playing staff? Can I ask what is your source for all this information?

 

I'm sure you can appreciate there is significant doubt as to the content of your posts due to a combination of your small and almost exclusively negative posting history.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I don't know. I do know that four staff are being made redundant from December 31st. I'm sure you won't believe me (or won't want to believe me) but I'll tuck this post away in my favourites and remind you of it when the story appear in the papers. Maybe Ewen's mole will tell him and he can print it.

 

Hopefully they include Korobochka and Cervenkov, but they won't!

[Guest Fabuloso]

The above is an interesting quote from another forum.

 

Thanksgiving does happen every year though - no surprises. It should have been accounted for. Furthermore if this is the case then it shouldn't be too difficult to explain from the club's perpective. We'll see.

[aDONis]

HMRC are owed over ?3 billion by UK football clubs. There is nothing unusual there.

 

I find that hard to believe. Leeds and Leicester were the worst defaulters and they owed ?7m each.

 

That would mean that there are approximately 425 other Leeds clubs out there

 

Source http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7741859.stm

 

Yours

aDONis

 

P.S. whilst I'm on, sure as eggs are eggs, Hearts have cash flow problems, but I wouldn't throw yourselves off the fourth rail yet.

 

Edited to fix my arithmetic

[Johanes de Silentio]

wage are in on Monday - non-story - proceed to the matter at hand - pump these evil *******s!

[Martin_T]

I find that hard to believe. Leeds and Leicester were the worst defaulters and they owed ?7m each.

 

That would mean that there are approximately 425 other Leeds clubs out there

 

Source http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7741859.stm

 

Yours

aDONis

 

P.S. whilst I'm on, sure as eggs are eggs, Hearts have cash flow problems, but I wouldn't throw yourselves off the fourth rail yet.

 

Edited to fix my arithmetic

 

Apologies, I think I've got the figure confused with something else I read recently. That said, it would surprise me if the figure is in the hundreds of millions given the sheer scale of the debts of most of the EPL clubs.

 

English football is in my opinion heading for a major bust on a similar scale to the boom they have experienced in the past 15 years.

[DavePDQ]

Playing staff?

 

No, office staff.

 

 

Can I ask what is your source for all this information?

 

No.

[Martin_T]

No, office staff.

 

 

 

 

No.

 

 

No offence Dave, but again not much credibility has been added to what you are saying. The only guy on this forum who has been consistently right with his inside info is PTBCAL and whilst he is saying there will be cuts, nothing has been mentioned about putting out the youth team.

 

Also, if you are a Hearts fan and you clearly take a close interest in the inner workings of the club, are you planning on going to go to the game today? My reason for not going today is a combination of having not renewed my season ticket and a ?238 dentist bill this morning.

[d(>_<)b]

Given that the club sold the tickets for today's match directly to the Rangers supporters (I use the word, supporters, loosely) what the feck has happened to the money?

 

It's just been reported on BBC 5Live that our weekly wage bill is ?90k, we must have brought in a damn sight more than that from Rangers ticket sales.

 

Something doesn't sit right with me and I fear that there's more to this than is being reported.

[Martin_T]

Given that the club sold the tickets for today's match directly to the Rangers supporters (I use the word, supporters, loosely) what the feck has happened to the money?

 

It's just been reported on BBC 5Live that our weekly wage bill is ?90k, we must have brought in a damn sight more than that from Rangers ticket sales.

 

Something doesn't sit right with me and I fear that there's more to this than is being reported.

 

Who knows? The point is that there is nothing we can do about it, the club has said the money will be in by Monday, if it's not then we can start having serious concerns.