Gordon v Zander idea.

[Fozzyonthefence]

1 hour ago, JFK-1 said:

If 3rd were mathematically secured some tinkering of the managers first choice might be appropriate for a variety of reasons but I would say not until it's mathematically secured. 

I just can’t get my head around this line of thought of waiting until 3rd is mathematically secured.  Surely you can only think that if you believe playing Gordon weakens the team and our chances of achieving that.  You don’t honestly believe that do you?

 

We can lose every game or not win another game (which we obviously won’t) and probably still get 3rd so it’s pretty much secured anyway.  Playing our best goalkeeper isn’t going to negatively affect that.  Should we wait until 3rd is mathematically secured until we give Oda or Tagawa another run out?

[King prawn]

The pundits on Sportscene were coming out with some nonsense. 
 

“It’s not fair on Liam Kelly if two keepers from one club go”

 

Well Liam Kelly is an average at best goalie and we happen to have 2 much better than him at the same club - what’s so hard to understand ? 

[Dazo]

23 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Pish

If isn’t really. Might be hard for you to take but someone who knows more than both of us isn’t playing him so you might want that to sink in. 

[kingantti1874]

7 minutes ago, King prawn said:

The pundits on Sportscene were coming out with some nonsense. 
 

“It’s not fair on Liam Kelly if two keepers from one club go”

 

Well Liam Kelly is an average at best goalie and we happen to have 2 much better than him at the same club - what’s so hard to understand ? 

aye that’s absolute shite. Liam Kelly is average.  The end 

[Pingu]

I don't think they'll both go to Germany. I think they absolutely should, but I have a feeling Clarke will make the wrong call and take Kelly. I think if Gordon gets 4 or 5 league games before the end of the season, he'll go. Otherwise it'll be Zander.

 

Zander's form of late has been exceptional, but personally I believe Gordon is still the better keeper. Unless Naismith has seen something in training to suggest he's not quite at his pre-injury level, I'd be picking Gordon. I know that is incredibly harsh on Clark who has done nothing wrong since Gordon's been fit, but if you have a great player and an even better one to choose from, you pick the latter.

[Japan Jambo]

12 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

Hear me out.  We’ve established that Zander won’t be dropped and for now is the defacto #1 and I’m not challenging that 

 

however we have a unique set of circumstances here, Zander is in the hot seat as a result of a horrendous injury.   Were it not for that injury, Craig would without doubt still be the man.

 

Now given third is basically in the bag, and both want to go to the euros (Craig has never been to a tournament which he absolutely deserves ) I think we should split the remaining fixtures for the remainder of this season only.  
 

This could see BOTH keepers go to the Euros. This would be fair to both Craig and Zander. With the semi final they would have 10 game (5 games each) and if we make the final we’d have an extra one 

 

all of this on the understanding that Zander falls back into the hotseat in the league next season.

 

thoughts 

 

let's not be so complacent, still a fair few games to go yet!

[Fozzyonthefence]

16 minutes ago, King prawn said:

The pundits on Sportscene were coming out with some nonsense. 
 

“It’s not fair on Liam Kelly if two keepers from one club go”

 

Well Liam Kelly is an average at best goalie and we happen to have 2 much better than him at the same club - what’s so hard to understand ? 

Didn’t Rangers have two keepers in the squad at one point with either McGregor and McCrorie or McLaughlin and McCrorie when the latter didn’t even play in the first team?   It’s hardly the same situation as that when the guy hardly playing is arguably Scotland’s best ever goalkeeper.

[briever]

17 minutes ago, King prawn said:

The pundits on Sportscene were coming out with some nonsense. 
 

“It’s not fair on Liam Kelly if two keepers from one club go”

 

Well Liam Kelly is an average at best goalie and we happen to have 2 much better than him at the same club - what’s so hard to understand ? 

 

The need to watch the Scottish cup game Morton v Motherwell - Kelly should be nowhere near the Scotland squad.

[Japan Jambo]

19 minutes ago, King prawn said:

The pundits on Sportscene were coming out with some nonsense. 
 

“It’s not fair on Liam Kelly if two keepers from one club go”

 

Well Liam Kelly is an average at best goalie and we happen to have 2 much better than him at the same club - what’s so hard to understand ? 

 

He aspires to be average. What pathetic punditry; we need to maximise our chances and therefore the best players should go.

[Horatio Caine]

CBA reading the whole thread, but I imagine Naisy knows exactly how he wants to play this; and I also reckon he'll have had chats with Steve Clarke about it, as they know and respect  each other well.

[spacerjoe]

11 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

We should be helping Craig achieve his ambition of a major tourney, it won’t hurt Zander at all imo.

 

i think we owe it to him. 

No, we shouldn't.

 

We should be doing what is best for the club.

 

[Horatio Caine]

4 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Didn’t Rangers have two keepers in the squad at one point with either McGregor and McCrorie or McLaughlin and McCrorie when the latter didn’t even play in the first team?   It’s hardly the same situation as that when the guy hardly playing is arguably Scotland’s best ever goalkeeper.

Indeed.  A point I made either somewhere earlier on this thread or somewhere else.

[Fozzyonthefence]

31 minutes ago, Dazo said:

If isn’t really. Might be hard for you to take but someone who knows more than both of us isn’t playing him so you might want that to sink in. 

Well he’s actually playing both of them and that same person has been making noises in the media that Gordon is looking back to his best.  So, if Gordon is back to his best then it is just a matter of time before he takes over as no1 again unless you happen to think that Clark at his best is better than Scotland’s best ever keeper at his best?  Steve Clarke knows more than both of us too and he picked Marshall ahead of Gordon at the last Euros.  All managers make mistakes and I’m not saying Naismith has …… yet.  

 

This hasn’t just been about playing your best player for Naismith, it’s been about timing and managing his players best he can and doing the right thing by them.  Probably the hardest decision he has had to make in his managerial career so far.  I’ve said before Gordon will be Hearts no1 by the start of next season but I’m not sure what will happen between now and the end of the season. 

[boag1874]

I’d imagine they’ll be rotated more once third is mathematically secured. Zander has been immense for us this season and doesn’t deserve to be dropped at the moment, that’s the long & short of it.
 

His save % this season is actually higher than Craig Gordon’s was last season before his injury by about 5%, and that includes those 2 massive penalty saves.
 

Both will go to the Euros but regardless of what happens Gunn will start barring injury and maroon tinted specs off that’s absolutely how it should be, Gunn is the future and has been excellent for Scotland.

[joondalupjambo]

Mentioned this before but I think if Levein is still managing St Johnstone next season he will come sniffing around for Craig.  If Craig does not dislodge Clark, misses out on the Euros because of that and is not number 1 in Naismith's eyes and wants to play another year in the top Scottish league then he might just move to play.  However that could just be fantasy and Craig is happy to play second fiddle if he gets to play as number 1 next season in all Euro and cup games.  It will be interesting to see what develops.

[Ricardo Quaresma]

1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

if we win at Ross county there is no chance of being caught. I mean of course there’s a chance but it’s vanishingly small

 

Agree with that; Craig should get a turn in the league ASAP, but he did have the last game

 

We'll see if he gets game time for Scotland too

 

Naisy's definitely going to select Zander fo RC, we know that

[Ricardo Quaresma]

57 minutes ago, Pingu said:

I don't think they'll both go to Germany. I think they absolutely should, but I have a feeling Clarke will make the wrong call and take Kelly. I think if Gordon gets 4 or 5 league games before the end of the season, he'll go. Otherwise it'll be Zander.

 

Zander's form of late has been exceptional, but personally I believe Gordon is still the better keeper. Unless Naismith has seen something in training to suggest he's not quite at his pre-injury level, I'd be picking Gordon. I know that is incredibly harsh on Clark who has done nothing wrong since Gordon's been fit, but if you have a great player and an even better one to choose from, you pick the latter.

 

That'd be stupid ATM, surely

[Ricardo Quaresma]

50 minutes ago, spacerjoe said:

No, we shouldn't.

 

We should be doing what is best for the club.

 

Believe that is what's best for the Club; regardless or whether Craig goes into Coaching or not after the Tournament

[spacerjoe]

1 minute ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

Believe that is what's best for the Club; regardless or whether Craig goes into Coaching or not after the Tournament

Why?

[Taffin]

If Naismith thinks we're best with Clark as number 1, then I hope he plays him until the end of the season. 

 

[Ricardo Quaresma]

1 minute ago, spacerjoe said:

Why?

 

Gordon is still better than Gunn or Clark, for Scotland

 

We'll see it soon enough, in time for the EUROs

[spacerjoe]

Just now, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

Gordon is still better than Gunn or Clark, for Scotland

 

We'll see it soon enough, in time for the EUROs

Why is it good for Hearts to drop Clark so that we can get Gordon the Scotland No1 spot?

[Fozzyonthefence]

13 minutes ago, boag1874 said:

I’d imagine they’ll be rotated more once third is mathematically secured. Zander has been immense for us this season and doesn’t deserve to be dropped at the moment, that’s the long & short of it.
 

His save % this season is actually higher than Craig Gordon’s was last season before his injury by about 5%, and that includes those 2 massive penalty saves.
 

Both will go to the Euros but regardless of what happens Gunn will start barring injury and maroon tinted specs off that’s absolutely how it should be, Gunn is the future and has been excellent for Scotland.

He’s not been immense, he’s had several dodgy games but has been a very good back up to have.

 

Interesting stat above save % but I can’t remember a game where I’ve thought wow, how did Zander save that?  He seems to make solid / good saves all the time, never worldies.  The last Celtic game was a good example, he had a very good game but when I watched the highlights back his two best saves (including penalty) were both with his feet.  He never seems to make these unlikely finger tip saves when it’s going in the top curved or the ridiculous reflex saves like Gordon in both Hibs semis.  
 

As for Gunn, he will start as no1 in the Euros.  We know how loyal Clarke is to players who got us there.  But I have to admit I have no idea if Gunn is any good as I never watch Norwich and I would say he has been solid rather than spectacular for Scotland in the limited games I’ve seen.  I see similarities between him and Zander actually (perhaps with fewer mistakes) - Scotland games where I’ve seen the whole game or just highlights, I’ve never once thought Gunn had a brilliant game today.  Just seems to do what he has to do but nothing out of the ordinary (of course could be totally different with Norwich). 

[Fozzyonthefence]

9 minutes ago, Taffin said:

If Naismith thinks we're best with Clark as number 1, then I hope he plays him until the end of the season. 

 

Then why would he become no2 by the start of next season?  What would change close season?  Or do you think Zander will be no1 next season too?

[Ricardo Quaresma]

2 minutes ago, spacerjoe said:

Why is it good for Hearts to drop Clark so that we can get Gordon the Scotland No1 spot?

 

Wow, step back, that's not quite what I was meaning, check these 2 further back on this thread 👇

 

2 hours ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

There has to be a vector for putting Craig in for League games ATM; right now, there's not

 

A few games ago, there was, but after the performance against celtic at home just there, there's not

 

Next window for it is the assumption we can't be caught for 3rd, or it's confirmed that we're 3rd

 

The performance above was the Zander we saw when he took over, the Zander that made the double save in the 3-0 Derby last January

 

20 minutes ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

Agree with that; Craig should get a turn in the league ASAP, but he did have the last game

 

We'll see if he gets game time for Scotland too

 

Naisy's definitely going to select Zander fo RC, we know that

 

 

[Turkishcap]

Got a feeling CG may play at County, 2 games together before friendlies.

[Ricardo Quaresma]

4 minutes ago, Turkishcap said:

Got a feeling CG may play at County, 2 games together before friendlies.

 

Am I missing something? There's only the RC game before International break

[Hearts1975]

I feel for big Zander. I really do. The guy has done nothing wrong to deserve what I am about to say, but ....

 

Play the best player. Yes. That means CG. It's a difficult situation and that's in no small part down to ZC not really deserving to lose the slot but we have 2 smashing keepers I 

 

Play big Craig and rotate Zander some games 

 

I would rather have a main keeper and a backup in all honesty where the main keeper is just a better player. Craig is older and Zander has years left in him 

 

A tremendously difficult decision for Naismith, this. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

3 minutes ago, Turkishcap said:

Got a feeling CG may play at County, 2 games together before friendlies.

I did have that feeling too but think Clark will play after the Celtic game.  I do think it is when and not if Gordon comes back, especially when you take into account the positive noises Naismith has been making about how good Gordon is looking now (i don’t think he means attraction wise!).  SN is a former Scotland as well as Hearts team mate of CG.  He knows how good he is, he knows who the better keeper is.  

[Nik5122]

Not only is Craig probably our greatest ever goalie(amongst really tough opposition) in my opinion he is Scotland's best ever goalie and judging how fit and sharp he's looked in the games we've seen him I think its a great idea for him to share the gloves with Zander till end of season.As for Kelly,seem to remember him blundering in his last appearance for scotland.

[Taffin]

29 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Then why would he become no2 by the start of next season?  What would change close season?  Or do you think Zander will be no1 next season too?

 

No idea, I'm just working on the assumption Naismith is doing what he thinks is best for Hearts. If he thought we were better with Gordon starting then he'd have done it.

 

If I were to guess, a close season and full pre-season may make him feel the risks of switching keepers mid-season are mitigated 

[spacerjoe]

29 minutes ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

Wow, step back, that's not quite what I was meaning, check these 2 further back on this thread 👇

 

 

 

 

Yes, but the post I replied to said that we owe it to Gordon to drop Clark, so that Gordon can have a chance of getting the Scotland No1 spot back for the Euros.

 

I said the the club should only do what is best for the the club.

 

You said you believed that was what was best for the club. I asked why?

 

I don't believe Gordon has earned his place back in the Hearts team. As you mention too, Zander was brilliant the last two games.

 

So why would it be in the best interest of the club to drop Clark and break up a winning side?

 

And that's not a loaded question, just interested in what the counter argument is beyond 'Craig is more talented'.

[spacerjoe]

5 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

No idea, I'm just working on the assumption Naismith is doing what he thinks is best for Hearts. If he thought we were better with Gordon starting then he'd have done it.

 

If I were to guess, a close season and full pre-season may make him feel the risks of switching keepers mid-season are mitigated 

I'd agree with this. Pre-season is a bit of a reset.

 

Gloves are still Clark's to lose, but it becomes a more even playing field.

[Fozzyonthefence]

4 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

No idea, I'm just working on the assumption Naismith is doing what he thinks is best for Hearts. If he thought we were better with Gordon starting then he'd have done it.

 

If I were to guess, a close season and full pre-season may make him feel the risks of switching keepers mid-season are mitigated 

There is no risk in switching them now.  The league is done and dusted.  Our biggest game of the season is the semi against Rangers and it would appear that Gordon is the cup keeper now so maybe Naismith shouldn’t risk Gordon for such a huge game if he can’t be trusted to play a league game against Ross County?

[Nelly Terraces]

Just chucking this in for a bit of fun/debate, but seeing how Zander Clark has a pretty decent record of saving penalties & Craig Gordon hasn't, how what do people think that if we were ever to get to a situation in either/both the semi & the final that if Craig was to be the chosen keeper for the games we'd see a situation whereby Clark is brought on for the shootouts?

[I P Knightley]

13 hours ago, Bazzas right boot said:

We can play both.

Win another couple of  games and stick one in at cd and they can swap at ht.

If hibs make top 6, stick craigy up top.

 

In fact, v County rest Shankland and stick Craig up top and swap at ht.

If county gain 3 points on Aberdeen,  it would be such a shame. 

 

There's the plan, right there!

 

I'm sure it's always been one of Craig's dreams to wear a maroon shirt and score a goal against the Hibs. That would be better than any testimonial. 

[Taffin]

Just now, Fozzyonthefence said:

There is no risk in switching them now.  The league is done and dusted.  Our biggest game of the season is the semi against Rangers and it would appear that Gordon is the cup keeper now so maybe Naismith shouldn’t risk Gordon for such a huge game if he can’t be trusted to play a league game against Ross County?

 

The league is done and dusted at the end of the season. There's plenty points still to be won...we could be on for one of our best finishes in recent memory. Why tinker? 

 

Who said he's not trusted? There's just no benefit to doing it. What does it achieve? Clark has done absolutely fine and with our starting defence jumbled up why add an additional change when you don't need to?

[Fozzyonthefence]

2 minutes ago, spacerjoe said:

Yes, but the post I replied to said that we owe it to Gordon to drop Clark, so that Gordon can have a chance of getting the Scotland No1 spot back for the Euros.

 

I said the the club should only do what is best for the the club.

 

You said you believed that was what was best for the club. I asked why?

 

I don't believe Gordon has earned his place back in the Hearts team. As you mention too, Zander was brilliant the last two games.

 

So why would it be in the best interest of the club to drop Clark and break up a winning side?

 

And that's not a loaded question, just interested in what the counter argument is beyond 'Craig is more talented'.

How exactly does Gordon earn his place back in the team then when he’s not playing?

 

You’re spot on about the Scotland situation.  Naismith has a duty to do the best thing for Hearts not Scotland.  Having said that Steve Clarke has a duty to do the best thing for Scotland and I’d be astonished if he hasn’t had conversations with SN about the goalkeeping situation at Hearts and how Gordon is shaping up, etc.  He may even have asked SN about prospects of game time for Gordon but that’s possibly not s question he would be able to answer.  

[scott herbertson]

2 minutes ago, Nelly Terraces said:

Just chucking this in for a bit of fun/debate, but seeing how Zander Clark has a pretty decent record of saving penalties & Craig Gordon hasn't, how what do people think that if we were ever to get to a situation in either/both the semi & the final that if Craig was to be the chosen keeper for the games we'd see a situation whereby Clark is brought on for the shootouts?

 

 

No reason why not - wouldn't like to be the one telling Craig Gordon to come off tho!

 

One of the issues with dropping Clark for the league games now would be that it would reduce Clark's chances of getting in the scotland squad - bit hard on him when he's in such fine form.

[Fozzyonthefence]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

The league is done and dusted at the end of the season. There's plenty points still to be won...we could be on for one of our best finishes in recent memory. Why tinker? 

 

Who said he's not trusted? There's just no benefit to doing it. What does it achieve? Clark has done absolutely fine and with our starting defence jumbled up why add an additional change when you don't need to?

The benefit is that Gordon is a better keeper and makes saves that Clark can’t.  That leads to more points. How does that not benefit the team?   

 

We’re finishing 3rd irrespective of how we finish the season. It doesn’t matter if we get 60 points or 70 points.  Winning the cup is what matters now so I guess you feel Zander should play the semi and final should we reach it?  

[escobri]

Gordon should be starting as clearly is the better keeper by far. He'll be in the squad for Euros but as no2 imo. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

4 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

No reason why not - wouldn't like to be the one telling Craig Gordon to come off tho!

 

One of the issues with dropping Clark for the league games now would be that it would reduce Clark's chances of getting in the scotland squad - bit hard on him when he's in such fine form.

As others have stated Naismith’s duty is to do the right thing for Hearts,  not Scotland.  That has to take precedence over individual players’ objectives. I think Clark is a shoe in for the Scotland squad anyway even if he didn’t look very good in the last Scotland game. 

[brux]

This is very simple, the best performer in training, and taking into consideration the last games plays.  Professional football isn't a charity where we play players so they can make tournaments, we play our best performing players to win games.

[Nelly Terraces]

7 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

No reason why not - wouldn't like to be the one telling Craig Gordon to come off tho!

 

One of the issues with dropping Clark for the league games now would be that it would reduce Clark's chances of getting in the scotland squad - bit hard on him when he's in such fine form.

Yep mate, we've seen it happen before elsewhere, it's a risk but really keepers having nothing to lose in shootouts, so if it did happen I'd be more than happy.

 

As for the Scotland situation, I don't think that will really enter the mind of Steven Naismith & neither should it, sure if we have 3rd well tied up then maybe give Craig a run of games, especially if we are in a final & it gives him real match practice, but the chief consideration should be what's good for HMFC & everything else is secondary to that. 

[Taffin]

1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

The benefit is that Gordon is a better keeper and makes saves that Clark can’t.  That leads to more points. How does that not benefit the team?   

 

Is he? I've only seen him a couple of times again guff opposition after a lengthy lay off. Clark term hasn't been a period where we've left an awful lot of points on the table. I'm struggling to think of many we've dropped where Gordon would have won us them (and also not made or contributed to any mistakes that cost us).

 

1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

We’re finishing 3rd irrespective of how we finish the season. It doesn’t matter if we get 60 points or 70 points.  Winning the cup is what matters now so I guess you feel Zander should play the semi and final should we reach it?  

 

This makes no sense. Why would the supporter or manager of a football team be happy to write off points for no purpose? If the rest of the league season doesn't matter, why should any fans bother turning up? 

[Fozzyonthefence]

4 minutes ago, brux said:

This is very simple, the best performer in training, and taking into consideration the last games plays.  Professional football isn't a charity where we play players so they can make tournaments, we play our best performing players to win games.

It’s not simple at all and I’m certain the toughest decision SN has had to deal with.  How much emphasis do you put on game time and how much emphasis on training?   Also, one only gets the chance to impress in training (other than 3 cup games against lower league opposition), so it’s not easy to assess at all.  And one happens to have been Hearts best ever goalkeeper returning from a year out at the age of 41.  
 

It’s an extremely difficult situation for Naismith and I’m glad I’m not in his shoes!

[spacerjoe]

14 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

How exactly does Gordon earn his place back in the team then when he’s not playing?

 

You’re spot on about the Scotland situation.  Naismith has a duty to do the best thing for Hearts not Scotland.  Having said that Steve Clarke has a duty to do the best thing for Scotland and I’d be astonished if he hasn’t had conversations with SN about the goalkeeping situation at Hearts and how Gordon is shaping up, etc.  He may even have asked SN about prospects of game time for Gordon but that’s possibly not s question he would be able to answer.  

 

Same as any GK situation, I guess. He can only earn it back by Clark making mistakes / playing poorly. But Clark seems to be thriving on the pressure at the moment.

 

I agree with Taffin that there is a momentum reset in the off season and they can be judged more equally, but right now its up to Clark to keep performing at 'Gordon levels'.

[Ribble]

14 hours ago, spirt of 98 said:

Why when the third is tied up? Do we not trust him? 

 

It's out of fairness to Zander rather than lack of trust in CG, currently Zander is our League keeper and CG our Cup keeper, once league business is concluded ie 3rd is secured then it makes sense to give more minutes to our cup keeper so he has as much game time as possible in preparation for both the Semi and hopefully the final. Whether that's enough for both keepers to go to the Euro's is almost irrelevant, we do the best thing for Hearts first and foremost.

[brux]

1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

It’s not simple at all and I’m certain the toughest decision SN has had to deal with.  How much emphasis do you put on game time and how much emphasis on training?   Also, one only gets the chance to impress in training (other than 3 cup games against lower league opposition), so it’s not easy to assess at all.  And one happens to have been Hearts best ever goalkeeper returning from a year out at the age of 41.  
 

It’s an extremely difficult situation for Naismith and I’m glad I’m not in his shoes!

I agree it's not simple for SN, but the goal should be simple, what wins hearts football games and anything else should not cloud that aim.

[Fozzyonthefence]

5 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Is he? I've only seen him a couple of times again guff opposition after a lengthy lay off. Clark term hasn't been a period where we've left an awful lot of points on the table. I'm struggling to think of many we've dropped where Gordon would have won us them (and also not made or contributed to any mistakes that cost us).

 

 

This makes no sense. Why would the supporter or manager of a football team be happy to write off points for no purpose? If the rest of the league season doesn't matter, why should any fans bother turning up? 

Some fans won’t bother turning up (we see that every week with empty ST seats and there tends to be more empty seats the more meaningless the game). 
 

I’ll ask again - what is more important now - winning the cup or a few extra points in guaranteed 3rd and would you play Clark or Gordon in the semi?