McKenzie Kirk

[Chuck Berry]

9 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

 

 

Cammy Ross is the 2nd top scorer in the same league. Shall we go out and buy him from Tranent and give him the “benefit” of first team minutes? 16 goals in 28 games, good goalscoring rate, I guess that makes him “a better finisher” than Vargas too? 
 

The fact is, scoring goals in a part time football level, while good for the lad and his confidence, is basically meaningless in the context of the Heart of Midlothian First Team.

 

What we’re seeing is that clearly the lowland league is a level below Kirk’s talent, he and others are too good for that level. We already know that though. That’s no less than you’d expect. Playing at that level is just about getting adapted physically to playing against grown men.
 

But now, it’s about finding the right loan move for him as I think all are agreed hamilton was not the right move. Brave of him to have a go at stepping a massive upward gulf in class from lowland league to league 1, so he will learn a lot about the work he now has to put in. Good luck to him & will watch with interest.

 

 

So how often have you seen Kirk? I guess the answer is zero. Kirk actually scored 27 goals in 21 games this season. He would probably have gotten past 40 if he hadn't gone out on loan.

 

I appreciate we're talking drastically different levels of the game, but Kirk probably is at L1 level just now - although clearly not getting a chance at Hamilton - and he is an exceptionally good finisher.  It's not a stretch to say that this part of his game isn't "streets behind" Vargas.

Edited March 18 by Chuck Berry

[davemclaren]

18 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Hendo can’t get a regular start for Hamilton in tier 3.  Don’t think many Premiership or even  championship clubs will be queuing up to sign him 

He might be in the Championship next season but he doesn't appear to be a standout at Hamilton.  

[A_A wehatethehibs]

18 minutes ago, Chuck Berry said:

 

So how often have you seen Kirk? I guess the answer is zero. Kirk actually scored 27 goals in 21 games this season. He would probably have gotten past 40 if he hadn't gone out on loan.

 

I appreciate we're talking drastically different levels of the game, but Kirk probably is at L1 level just now - although clearly not getting a chance at Hamilton - and he is an exceptionally good finisher.  It's not a stretch to say that this part of his game isn't "streets behind" Vargas.

I don’t think I’ve said anything unreasonable mate just focused on Levels as for me, when it comes to young players, that’s the key to it. He’s shown he can do the business at lowland league level. I don’t hold any strong opinions really just focus on the facts. He has proved he can score goals at that level and looked good no

doubt about that. But what’s also evident from the footage is, it’s a very, very low level of football:
 

 

So now it’s all about, how will he progress and step up through levels? Levels where he will not get as many open goals / chances from 6 yards out with zero defenders in sight?  That’s what it’s all about now.

[Chuck Berry]

18 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

I don’t think I’ve said anything unreasonable mate just focused on Levels as for me, when it comes to young players, that’s the key to it. He’s shown he can do the business at lowland league level. I don’t hold any strong opinions really just focus on the facts. He has proved he can score goals at that level and looked good no

doubt about that. But what’s also evident from the footage is, it’s a very, very low level of football:
 

 

So now it’s all about, how will he progress and step up through levels? Levels where he will not get as many open goals / chances from 6 yards out with zero defenders in sight?  That’s what it’s all about now.

 

To be honest, the Lowland League is no worse than League 2, having watched a few L2 games this season the B team could easily survive in that division, so he is playing at a reasonable standard already.

 

If someone was scoring 27 in 21 in L2 they would perhaps be attracting some attention further up.  He scored twice at leaders East Kilbride, bagged a hattrick a third place Bo'ness, scored six in two games against Berwick Rangers, scored up a Brechin City in the SPFL Trophy. Not all tap-ins either (4mins into that video you'll see his second at EK).

 

I think at this stage of his career he is a better striker than Henderson.  He just needs a chance, sadly that doesn't seem to be coming at Hamilton for whatever reason so next season it'll either be bench warming for most of it with the first team, or out on loan for half/full season.

 

If it's the latter, it needs to be with club who will give him opportunities. Perhaps Edinburgh City would have been better for him this season than Hamilton. He would have started every week.

Edited March 18 by Chuck Berry

[Skacelsid]

Good prospect and ready for some first team minutes, looks athletic and confident boy.

[soonbe110]

3 hours ago, davemclaren said:

He might be in the Championship next season but he doesn't appear to be a standout at Hamilton.  

Nope, struggling to get a start.  

[Albert McFly]

7 hours ago, Chuck Berry said:

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/blogs/news/kirk-signs-new-deal

Development fee protection 

[Psychedelicropcircle]

On 09/03/2024 at 18:51, RobNox said:

Because L1 is a step up from the Lowland League, where he was tearing it up.  Clearly too good for that league so no point leaving him in the B team.  Unfortunately the loan doesn't seem to be working out.

This

[TheBigO]

5 hours ago, Sooks said:

See if you can hit those sort of numbers , and it is down to being lightweight that you are not making an impact ? Then I think it is good idea to persevere . 20 years old ? Not the age to be giving up on prolific goal scorers , when their lesser attributes can be worked on 

Every player takes a different path but what was Shanks up to at 20yo? Bouncing about on loan, going part time?

 

Genuinely not sure his time line. Point is as you say goalscorers tend to have it or not, and perhaps worth the extra wait/work, especially if attitude is right.

 

Never seen the kid play btw so very much a general thought

[jamboinglasgow]

20 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Every player takes a different path but what was Shanks up to at 20yo? Bouncing about on loan, going part time?

 

Genuinely not sure his time line. Point is as you say goalscorers tend to have it or not, and perhaps worth the extra wait/work, especially if attitude is right.

 

Never seen the kid play btw so very much a general thought

 

He had mixed results with loans till he moved to Ayr United at 22. Agree with you though. I think he has been unlucky that after he signed for Hamilton they then signed a more experienced striker which meant he was pushed down the pecking order. I do agree with Fox that this is a big learning experience for him. The key is what does he learn from it, does he just mope around that he is not getting picked or does he watch the other strikers and sees why they are getting picked and work hard on that side of his game.

 

I also think people forget how much Shanklands other side of the game (i.e. the non-goal scoring side) has really come in recent years. Kirk can finish well, but he is having to work on the other side of his game to kick on.

 

While Hearts are probably protecting themselves for a future fee, if he doesn't kick on then they wont get that if no one signs him. Will be interesting to see what happens with him next season.

[PortyBeach]

I like his name.

Imagine his middle names being “Mackay Glidden Cumming”? 😊

[upgotheheads]

On 18/03/2024 at 19:30, TheBigO said:

Every player takes a different path but what was Shanks up to at 20yo? Bouncing about on loan, going part time?

 

Genuinely not sure his time line. Point is as you say goalscorers tend to have it or not, and perhaps worth the extra wait/work, especially if attitude is right.

 

Never seen the kid play btw so very much a general thought

 

I was watching Shanks at Ayr after he had failed to make it elsewhere. He was rescued from the scrapheap by Ian McCall (or so the story goes). In those days he was Ayr's top scorer by miles but although he was obviously a level above them (it might have been L1 at the time) it wouldn't have been easy to predict what he has become now. What I saw was a striker who spent most of his time outside the box, and who's goals were generally long range efforts but the fact he was overlooked by a few coaches tells us something about McCall. Forrest was there too as an teenager and clearly had some class, but I doubted he would make it to the top league.

[tiger Rudi]

On 18/03/2024 at 14:25, Chuck Berry said:

 

So how often have you seen Kirk? I guess the answer is zero. Kirk actually scored 27 goals in 21 games this season. He would probably have gotten past 40 if he hadn't gone out on loan.

 

I appreciate we're talking drastically different levels of the game, but Kirk probably is at L1 level just now - although clearly not getting a chance at Hamilton - and he is an exceptionally good finisher.  It's not a stretch to say that this part of his game isn't "streets behind" Vargas.

Not sure about your comparisons to Vargas but I agree about the rest. 

Look at how many clubs turned their nose up at signing Shankland when he was at lowly Ayr. 

The number of goals Kirk scores would suggest he's instinctive and clinical, knowing how to find space. He doesn't lose that instinct or stop being clinical moving up a few levels. Obviously he will need to work a bit harder to find space that's granted, but getting a few minutes with us would have been preferable to nothing at Hamilton. Not saying he's going to make it, but we need to give him a chance to shine. 

[jr ewing]

11 minutes ago, tiger Rudi said:

Not sure about your comparisons to Vargas but I agree about the rest. 

Look at how many clubs turned their nose up at signing Shankland when he was at lowly Ayr. 

The number of goals Kirk scores would suggest he's instinctive and clinical, knowing how to find space. He doesn't lose that instinct or stop being clinical moving up a few levels. Obviously he will need to work a bit harder to find space that's granted, but getting a few minutes with us would have been preferable to nothing at Hamilton. Not saying he's going to make it, but we need to give him a chance to shine. 

I remember having great hopes for James Keatings who scored a barrowload for Celtic reserves but failed overall with us.

[tiger Rudi]

17 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

I remember having great hopes for James Keatings who scored a barrowload for Celtic reserves but failed overall with us.

Yes there's nothing guaranteed and probably more likely he won't make it, but how gutted would we be if he's a success elsewhere without us at least giving him a chance. 

[dannymack]

😉

 

[Gorgierools]

2 hours ago, dannymack said:

😉

 

?

[jr ewing]

8 hours ago, tiger Rudi said:

Yes there's nothing guaranteed and probably more likely he won't make it, but how gutted would we be if he's a success elsewhere without us at least giving him a chance. 

True 👍 

[WASTREL]

On 09/03/2024 at 20:10, kingantti1874 said:

Any loans should come with guaranteed minutes or penalty clauses 

Yes there should be something to give the lending club some assurity.  Then it is down to the attitude, appluication and desire of the player.  John Rankine was his coach at Hearts so he knows Coach and what he wants from him.  

[AlimOzturk]

I would bring him back, give him first team minutes when we are comfortably winning games. If he shows improvement then throw him in. 
 

but i ain’t a football expert by any means   

[Gorgierools]

1 hour ago, Gorgierools said:

?

I recognise Bobby Kirk, my mum's uncle,so I guess the first guy was called McKenzie?

[A_A wehatethehibs]

9 hours ago, tiger Rudi said:

Yes there's nothing guaranteed and probably more likely he won't make it, but how gutted would we be if he's a success elsewhere without us at least giving him a chance. 

That may well happen but it may take years

 

Take the Aberdeen / Shankland thing. Yes they had him 8 years ago. But the boy simply was not good enough at that time.
 

Prem clubs were not queueing up when he was released. 

 

He ended up at fecking Ayr, then he had to fend for himself and fight to carve out a career for himself.

 

Without that tooth and nail battle to even be a pro, he would not become the player he is today.

 

Aberdeen could’ve tried to keep him all those years, but without that journey, he would not develop to the player he is, with the mentality he’s got. 

 

Sometimes ultimately you just have to let players go if they’re not good enough to get in your team yet, they need to go on their own journey. There’s no other way. They need to wear a clubs shirt as a first team player for that club and their fans. Not a temporary but permanent. It’s a different mentality to a loan always will be. 
 

You can’t wait around for 4-5-6 years loans and reserves, and just hope they eventually come good. They won’t develop until they’re out there fighting for their career. The vast 90% majority will find their level down there and good luck to them in their careers. And that 10% who make their way back up are available to us in the transfer market not just from us but all the top academies do release the majority of their players. 

[132goals1958]

12 minutes ago, Gorgierools said:

I recognise Bobby Kirk, my mum's uncle,so I guess the first guy was called McKenzie?

Memory of Bobby Kirk goes back to an opening game in the League cup against Hibs in 1957. Missed an opportunity of a hat trick of penalties with his third one hitting the post. Ended up  6 1 but for a couple of inches it would have been seven. 

[Gorgierools]

45 minutes ago, 132goals1958 said:

Memory of Bobby Kirk goes back to an opening game in the League cup against Hibs in 1957. Missed an opportunity of a hat trick of penalties with his third one hitting the post. Ended up  6 1 but for a couple of inches it would have been seven. 

Due to family politics I never met him but,a couple of years ago,in a small rural town in Spain, a bloke running a stall in the market, shouted across to me "mate, mate!, come over here". Yes, what's up? I asked

 Do you know Bobby Kirk? Yes, he was my mum's uncle,why? I replied.

I used to play with him as a kid and as you walked round the corner I seen you and your his bloody double, he said.

Small world eh?

For the record,I don't think I look anything like him

 Bloody weird, spooked me

 

 

[FIGJAM]

I think those looking at Kirk to get first team minutes are overlooking the clear reality at Hearts. It is clear who Naisy identifies at this moment getting first team minutes from the young players and Kirk not in that group. Looking at Naisy since he has come in, he doesn't give first team minutes easily. Naisy does not give minutes unless you are 1) regularly training with first team and 2) you have earned your stripes on the bench.

Tait had 25 bench appearances before making debut. I was a big critic of Tait not getting minutes before he did, given performance and potential from B Teams. I still think the boy is under used given appearances in last few months. But it is hard to argue with Naisy's results. A betting guy would look at Wilson as the next to get minutes, who is the only current B Team player who trains full time with first team and must now have approx 5-10 bench appearances without league debut.  I don't expect Wilson, Sandilands or McLuckie to get many minutes, based on what he have all seen with Tait. I do think there is a clear model which Naisy's has in order to move boys through the Hearts system.

Kirky is a 2004 so older than some, so his development needs were different. It all changes very quickly in football, Kirky just needs to come back in the summer, and light it up in pre season training. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

5 hours ago, Gorgierools said:

I recognise Bobby Kirk, my mum's uncle,so I guess the first guy was called McKenzie?

Tom Mackenzie by the look of it.

 

https://londonhearts.com/scores/newplayers/h01220.html

[Chuck Berry]

3 hours ago, FIGJAM said:

I think those looking at Kirk to get first team minutes are overlooking the clear reality at Hearts. It is clear who Naisy identifies at this moment getting first team minutes from the young players and Kirk not in that group. Looking at Naisy since he has come in, he doesn't give first team minutes easily. Naisy does not give minutes unless you are 1) regularly training with first team and 2) you have earned your stripes on the bench.

Tait had 25 bench appearances before making debut. I was a big critic of Tait not getting minutes before he did, given performance and potential from B Teams. I still think the boy is under used given appearances in last few months. But it is hard to argue with Naisy's results. A betting guy would look at Wilson as the next to get minutes, who is the only current B Team player who trains full time with first team and must now have approx 5-10 bench appearances without league debut.  I don't expect Wilson, Sandilands or McLuckie to get many minutes, based on what he have all seen with Tait. I do think there is a clear model which Naisy's has in order to move boys through the Hearts system.

Kirky is a 2004 so older than some, so his development needs were different. It all changes very quickly in football, Kirky just needs to come back in the summer, and light it up in pre season training. 

 

He'll do pre-season at Hearts, but I expect he may go out on loan before the window closes, hopefully a wiser choice than Hamilton.  If he has a year plus an option for a second year, then if he's doing well out on loan next season, the extension is triggered and he comes back to Hearts and see what impact he can make.

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

3 hours ago, FIGJAM said:

I think those looking at Kirk to get first team minutes are overlooking the clear reality at Hearts. It is clear who Naisy identifies at this moment getting first team minutes from the young players and Kirk not in that group. Looking at Naisy since he has come in, he doesn't give first team minutes easily. Naisy does not give minutes unless you are 1) regularly training with first team and 2) you have earned your stripes on the bench.

Tait had 25 bench appearances before making debut. I was a big critic of Tait not getting minutes before he did, given performance and potential from B Teams. I still think the boy is under used given appearances in last few months. But it is hard to argue with Naisy's results. A betting guy would look at Wilson as the next to get minutes, who is the only current B Team player who trains full time with first team and must now have approx 5-10 bench appearances without league debut.  I don't expect Wilson, Sandilands or McLuckie to get many minutes, based on what he have all seen with Tait. I do think there is a clear model which Naisy's has in order to move boys through the Hearts system.

Kirky is a 2004 so older than some, so his development needs were different. It all changes very quickly in football, Kirky just needs to come back in the summer, and light it up in pre season training. 

 

Naisy was just talking to Hearts Standard about planning a year out when it comes to the squad, particularly with regards to youth players. If we just signed Kirk to a year extension, my hunch is that he'll get a bit of the treatment that Denholm and Tait have gotten this season, work with the full team and chances here and there to take the pitch if he proves himself in training. Similarly, I think over the summer we'll see "fish or cut bait" on players like Denholm and Tait, either they'll be released or loaned out or they'll be slotted to make a fair few more first team appearances next season.

[boag1874]

2 hours ago, Chuck Berry said:

 

He'll do pre-season at Hearts, but I expect he may go out on loan before the window closes, hopefully a wiser choice than Hamilton.  If he has a year plus an option for a second year, then if he's doing well out on loan next season, the extension is triggered and he comes back to Hearts and see what impact he can make.

 

To be fair Hamilton would have been a wise choice on paper with them challenging at the right end of the table and all plus John Rankin there who he'll more than likely know already from his time coaching our 18s and who you'd imagine we still have a decent relationship with, seem to remember him being really well liked and don't recall any animosity when he left. Just unfortunate he hasn't been able to get a look in but that's loans, sometimes they don't quite go how you'd hope.

Edited March 21 by boag1874