Has Edinburgh went down the cludgie?

[trotter]

9 minutes ago, FWJ said:

Buses are timetabled at 25 minutes from the bottom of Morningside road into town.  The train would be a long  way round.

There’s also the problem of platform space at Waverley.

There might be a case for trains from the north and west (and from the other direction the south and east) using the southern part to access major employment centres like the new Royal & bioquarter bypassing Haymarket / Waverley but I think that’s really marginal TBH

Agreed, which I why I said it would have to be fully doubled, or at least passing loops provided to avoid going the long way round. Yes, there is access times on the main lines and stations ro be considered, but we would only be talking about relatively small commuter trains. They stop, people get farted out, they leave. I'm not saying it would be easy, I'm saying it isn't impossible with some joined up thinking for once. 

 

By and large, the trains on the through lines at Waverley will sit there for 30 mins or so. The station has crossovers on the tracks so pull the suburban services in ahead of them, let them do their thing and leave, leaving the route out clear for the expresses. 

Edited January 6 by trotter

[FWJ]

1 minute ago, trotter said:

Agreed, which I why I said it would have to be fully doubled, or at least passing loops provided to avoid going the long way round. Yes, there is access times on the main lines and stations ro be considered, but we would only be talking about relatively small commuter trains. They stop, people get farted out, they leave. I'm not saying it would be easy, I'm saying it isn't impossible with some joined up thinking for once. 

As all in favour as I am about improving public transport I’m really not convinced about the South Sub

[trotter]

4 minutes ago, FWJ said:

As all in favour as I am about improving public transport I’m really not convinced about the South Sub

To be honest, neither am I. I'm just throwing out the idea that it's something that could be considered as an option if the long term thinking is to ban all traffic from PA and GS. 

[FWJ]

1 minute ago, trotter said:

To be honest, neither am I. I'm just throwing out the idea that it's something that could be considered as an option if the long term thinking is to ban all traffic from PA and GS. 

One thing you will notice on here is any money being spent on improving public transport is met with an avalanche of posts complaining that the money would be better spent on improving provision for private motorists.

[Tazio]

Just now, trotter said:

To be honest, neither am I. I'm just throwing out the idea that it's something that could be considered as an option if the long term thinking is to ban all traffic from PA and GS. 

I can’t realistically think of anyway that PS could be made traffic free. The basic layout of Edinburgh means that there isn’t a simple arterial route across Edinburgh from East to West that bypasses it. I remember there was a report a few years ago pointing out that increased bus traffic in Queen Street was damaging the buildings due to their age. 

[FWJ]

6 minutes ago, Tazio said:

I can’t realistically think of anyway that PS could be made traffic free. The basic layout of Edinburgh means that there isn’t a simple arterial route across Edinburgh from East to West that bypasses it. I remember there was a report a few years ago pointing out that increased bus traffic in Queen Street was damaging the buildings due to their age. 

One of the new (long term) tram routes was from Haymarket via Morrison Street & Potterrow or the Meadows to access the South / East to avoid Princes Street

Edited January 6 by FWJ

[That thing you do]

18 hours ago, EH11_2NL said:

I was in town last Friday for the first time in a long time. Princes Street has certainly taken a dive. When you have a 'Day Today' grocers shop on a street like that, something is wrong. I was sorely disappointed 😞. 

It failure to plan. Online shopping plus Covid has changed the traditional high street so the high st needs to change with it.

 

Its that simple. Time it was used more as a civic space for people offering activities people want to enjoy.

 

Saturday shopping on the high st isnt coming back

Edited January 6 by That thing you do

[CostaJambo]

8 hours ago, westbow said:

West end? Before the old Frasers building perhaps. Above the American Express bank? (I only do directions from the eighties).

There are other flats much further along too, don't remember exactly which block but my mum's friend was considering one probably 1990ish and we went for a nosey. You literally entered from Princes St. Absolutely stunning view but even then the parking would have been prohibitive to the point of probably not worth having a car even then. 

[ArcticJambo]

Just sort the the traffic light sequences, bring back limited stop buses during peak times mainly, and reinstate entry and exit doors on the buses.  Regularly find 2 or even three #26s all fighting the same stop going into town. Ohh, and bus stops positioned just before or after traffic islands creating choke points. Pedestrian crossings 30m beyond lighted junctions.  There's so much more that could be done to keep traffic flowing, whether it be cars or buses but the planners just seem to insit on ****ing the place up. 

 

Going along Princes St in a bus gives me a migraine, just looking at the street furniture, and road markings, and multiple buses, and empty premises, and Xmas shite around the Scott monument.

 

Does anybody from Edinburgh actually go up the town these days?  In my 20s We'd be up there pretty much every Friday and Sat.  Is that still a thing?

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, ArcticJambo said:

Just sort the the traffic light sequences, bring back limited stop buses during peak times mainly, and reinstate entry and exit doors on the buses.  Regularly find 2 or even three #26s all fighting the same stop going into town. Ohh, and bus stops positioned just before or after traffic islands creating choke points. Pedestrian crossings 30m beyond lighted junctions.  There's so much more that could be done to keep traffic flowing, whether it be cars or buses but the planners just seem to insit on ****ing the place up. 

 

Going along Princes St in a bus gives me a migraine, just looking at the street furniture, and road markings, and multiple buses, and empty premises, and Xmas shite around the Scott monument.

 

Does anybody from Edinburgh actually go up the town these days?  In my 20s We'd be up there pretty much every Friday and Sat.  Is that still a thing?

 

Outsider viewpoint here.  I remember the state of Princes Street at the time of the 2012 Cup Final - and it wasn't pretty.  The place was a mess of building works, fenced off sections and closed/empty shops.  I remember walking along it to get from A to B somewhere at around 9 on the evening after the game, and it was desolate, like something you'd see in a rundown and nearly derelict suburban town centre.  For my money, it was never the same after those works as before.  I'm not saying the tram works were to blame, but they didn't help IMO.

[WheatfieldWarrior]

14 hours ago, trotter said:

Just level Princes St completely (or at least the middle part of it? May as well at this point...

 

(Tongue firmly in cheek)

 

Fill the gardens in ?

[ArcticJambo]

18 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Outsider viewpoint here.  I remember the state of Princes Street at the time of the 2012 Cup Final - and it wasn't pretty.  The place was a mess of building works, fenced off sections and closed/empty shops.  I remember walking along it to get from A to B somewhere at around 9 on the evening after the game, and it was desolate, like something you'd see in a rundown and nearly derelict suburban town centre.  For my money, it was never the same after those works as before.  I'm not saying the tram works were to blame, but they didn't help IMO.

I was a visitor too, albeit in my own city that night, Uly, back to Canada a week or so later. I can't say I remember anything specific about Edinburgh, I was hammered and we'd just won the Cup. It looked great that night, and it looked great the following afternoon, a sunny day. No doubt I'd had a whine and a moan about the city's demeanour but it was really just superficial, like it had been most times I was ;visiting'. Before I moved away I can't say I really noticed whether Edinburgh was in a state, it had its shitty parts, which I tended to avoid, but the town was always glorious, at anytime.

 

I suppose it still is, I just look at it differently now, five plus yrs back into another stint.  If I were king I'd bin the tram and bring back the original electric trams, they look the dogs bollix.

[Section Q]

The world's slowly being stripped it's assets, solely for profit.

There is very little investment in towns/cities for their betterment.

You only have to look at Nottingham and Birmingham who's councils are now officially bankrupt, and in administration.

Most Scottish cities are made up of crumbling tenements with no maintenance/sinking funds for their well being.

[Section Q]

The world's slowly being stripped it's assets, solely for profit.

There is very little investment in towns/cities for their betterment.

You only have to look at Nottingham and Birmingham who's councils are now officially bankrupt, and in administration.

Most Scottish cities are made up of crumbling tenements with no maintenance/sinking funds for their well being.

[manaliveits105]

Edinburgh is a fantastic city and improving all the time - pedestrianising PS with cafes bars and restaurants servicing the new hotels would be great going forward 

[stirlo]

19 hours ago, FWJ said:

Buses are timetabled at 25 minutes from the bottom of Morningside road into town.  The train would be a long  way round.

There’s also the problem of platform space at Waverley.

There might be a case for trains from the north and west (and from the other direction the south and east) using the southern part to access major employment centres like the new Royal & bioquarter bypassing Haymarket / Waverley but I think that’s really marginal TBH

 

Morningside to Waverley on the South Suburban line would only be 4 stops - and crucially, unlike the bus, no traffic to contend with. So it would surely be quicker. Portobello to Waverley would only be 3 stops. You're right about platform/track capacity in and around Waverley though (and Haymarket as well) - that would be the biggest obstacle.

 

But one way or another the planners need to wake up to the public transport issue in and out of Edinburgh. There is so much residential development going on in East, West and Midlothian - but there doesn't seem to be much of a strategy for addressing the public transport issues in a meaningful way. 

 

  

[Harry Potter]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

Edinburgh is a fantastic city and improving all the time - pedestrianising PS with cafes bars and restaurants servicing the new hotels would be great going forward 

gritting the pavements would be a start, how auld folk can walk to the shops is beyond me.

[TallPaul]

The new St James' centre is smart with some nice shops. Seems the retailers are opting out of the older buildings 

[Nookie Bear]

On 05/01/2024 at 21:16, John Findlay said:

It's all good and well blaming the council.

We too, the general public have played our part, by not using what we're known as the better named stores on the street and doing much of our shopping online nowadays.

It’s cheaper, and the more our taxes are raised in Scotland the more we will shop online at the expense of local stores. 

[ri Alban]

7 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

It’s cheaper, and the more our taxes are raised in Scotland the more we will shop online at the expense of local stores. 

Maybe ask your beloved rulers to drop the VAT.

[FWJ]

36 minutes ago, stirlo said:

 

Morningside to Waverley on the South Suburban line would only be 4 stops - and crucially, unlike the bus, no traffic to contend with. So it would surely be quicker. Portobello to Waverley would only be 3 stops. You're right about platform/track capacity in and around Waverley though (and Haymarket as well) - that would be the biggest obstacle.

 

But one way or another the planners need to wake up to the public transport issue in and out of Edinburgh. There is so much residential development going on in East, West and Midlothian - but there doesn't seem to be much of a strategy for addressing the public transport issues in a meaningful way. 

 

  

I certainly agree about the developments going on and the apparent lack of public transport provision.  It seems like they are saying ‘here’s a big field, let’s dump a thousand houses on it and think about transport later’ rather than ‘here’s a train line / potential bus route, let’s plan a thousand houses around it’.  So much of it seems to be low-rise, suburban development that would seem to be car-dependent, which is a concern.

At least there’s provision made for an additional tram stop between Ingliston and Gogarburn to service the new developments there.

[FWJ]

48 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

The new St James' centre is smart with some nice shops. Seems the retailers are opting out of the older buildings 

I’ve read one of the main reasons shops like places like St James is that the units are designed to be shops - with big, open-plan floors, provision for lifts/escalators, easy access to store rooms for deliveries etc.

Many of the older places can’t offer that - indeed many were never designed to be commercial in the first place.

[Nookie Bear]

50 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Maybe ask your beloved rulers to drop the VAT.

Ask yours to stop raising taxes. 

[Gundermann]

13 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Ask yours to stop raising taxes. 

 

Who?

 

I'd be fine with taxes being increased to fund the NHS and other public services - esp seeing at the promised £350m a week from Brexit doesn't seem to be happening... - though am not too chuffed with my tax money going to Michelle Mone, House of Lards, keeping Nonce Andrew away from US courts, feathering the nests of Tory CEOs etc...
 

As to topic, the trams are here to stay. I'm more or less in favour though the implementation has been a midden. Shiny new shopping centres only entertain us for a while before a new one is opened down the road and it falls in disrepair. Check the state of Ocean Terminal these days.

 

 

Quote

 

Rishi Sunak and Boris Johnson have overseen the largest set of tax rises since the Second World War, according to economic analysis.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) estimates that - by the time of the next general election - the tax burden will have risen to around 37% of national income.

 

This equates to roughly £3,500 extra per household - although the increase is not shared evenly.

 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/rishi-sunak-and-boris-johnson-have-overseen-largest-tax-rises-since-second-world-war-think-tank-12972001

Edited January 7 by Gundermann

[manaliveits105]

[Nookie Bear]

6 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Who?

 

I'd be fine with taxes being increased to fund the NHS and other public services - esp seeing at the promised £350m a week from Brexit doesn't seem to be happening... - though am not too chuffed with my tax money going to Michelle Mone, House of Lards, keeping Nonce Andrew away from US courts, feathering the nests of Tory CEOs etc...
 

As to topic, the trams are here to stay. I'm more or less in favour though the implementation has been a midden. Shiny new shopping centres only entertain us for a while before a new one is opened down the road and it falls in disrepair. Check the state of Ocean Terminal these days.

 

 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/rishi-sunak-and-boris-johnson-have-overseen-largest-tax-rises-since-second-world-war-think-tank-12972001

Good for you but Edinburgh is already an extremely expensive city to

live in and the constant squeeze on the middle earners can only lead one way: spending less money or spending  it more wisely. 

[Nookie Bear]

3 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

What 🤷‍♂️

[TallPaul]

13 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Good for you but Edinburgh is already an extremely expensive city to

live in and the constant squeeze on the middle earners can only lead one way: spending less money or spending  it more wisely. 

Economic suicide, it's like the People running Scotland are economicly inept 

[John Findlay]

Rail.

Edinburgh Waverley currently has twenty platforms of those twenty platforms.

Platforms 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 19, and 20 are bi-directional, which means trains can run either East or West from them.

Platforms 3, 4, 5, 6, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 are buffer platforms, which means trains can only go one direction from them.

3, 4, 5, and 6 trains can only go East. 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 trains can only go West. There are only four tracks between Waverley and Haymarket. There are only two tracks going East. The Calton hill tunnels are only singled track.

So bringing the South suburban railway back into use, would probably cost upwards of a billion pounds due to all the infrastructure changes and upgrades that would be required.

If a billion pounds is available that will be used I should imagine for a tramline for the Southside of the city, possibly going out to the ERI and sick Children's hospital sites.

 

The City centre of Edinburgh is no longer for the local populace, it's tourist central.

 

When I was a boy growing up in the late 60s and 70s the tourist season was from the start of June through to the start of September.

Now it's the Twelve months of the year, and it won't be changing anytime soon.

Edited January 7 by John Findlay

[CostaJambo]

8 hours ago, Section Q said:

The world's slowly being stripped it's assets, solely for profit.

There is very little investment in towns/cities for their betterment.

You only have to look at Nottingham and Birmingham who's councils are now officially bankrupt, and in administration.

Most Scottish cities are made up of crumbling tenements with no maintenance/sinking funds for their well being.

This is the key for me. The entire country is run for the benefit of faceless investors getting richer and richer while ordinary people suffer. The financial institutions which facilitate this are the ones who bankroll the political parties into government hence why the situation is never even discussed, let alone corrected. Everything is set up to maximise profits so that billionaires can get even richer, even in the public sector, such a bizarre state of affairs in a so-called civilised society. 

[FWJ]

45 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Rail.

Edinburgh Waverley currently has twenty platforms of those twenty platforms.

Platforms 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 19, and 20 are bi-directional, which means trains can run either East or West from them.

Platforms 3, 4, 5, 6, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 are buffer platforms, which means trains can only go one direction from them.

3, 4, 5, and 6 trains can only go East. 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 trains can only go West. There are only four tracks between Waverley and Haymarket. There are only two tracks going East. The Calton hill tunnels are only singled track.

So bringing the South suburban railway back into use, would probably cost upwards of a billion pounds due to all the infrastructure changes and upgrades that would be required.

If a billion pounds is available that will be used I should imagine for a tramline for the Southside of the city, possibly going out to the ERI and sick Children's hospital sites.

 

The City centre of Edinburgh is no longer for the local populace, it's tourist central.

 

When I was a boy growing up in the late 60s and 70s the tourist season was from the start of June through to the start of September.

Now it's the Twelve months of the year, and it won't be changing anytime soon.

👍

 

I thought there was some talk of doing something with the tunnels - maybe building another one?  (Might be imagining this though!)

I agree if there’s a £billion sloshing about then extending the trams would seem a better option - including into Midlothian.

 

I don’t mind that the City centre is full of tourists - it means that there’s more (and in many cases better) bars / restaurants etc, which of course we can use too.  And though it sounds a bit stupid / weird I’m quite proud that the city is so popular.  We don’t always realise how lucky we are.

 

Could do with fewer tartan tat shops though.

[Samuel Camazzola]

19 minutes ago, FWJ said:

👍

 

I thought there was some talk of doing something with the tunnels - maybe building another one?  (Might be imagining this though!)

I agree if there’s a £billion sloshing about then extending the trams would seem a better option - including into Midlothian.

 

I don’t mind that the City centre is full of tourists - it means that there’s more (and in many cases better) bars / restaurants etc, which of course we can use too.  And though it sounds a bit stupid / weird I’m quite proud that the city is so popular.  We don’t always realise how lucky we are.

 

Could do with fewer tartan tat shops though.

Out of interest, why do you think this would be a better option? 

 

In my opinion, I feel the opposite. This is only based on the road networks out that way not being very wide, the chaos the initial phases caused and the having no faith in costs being controlled. If possible, an expansion to the rail network would be more appealing. 

[westbow]

16 hours ago, CostaJambo said:

There are other flats much further along too, don't remember exactly which block but my mum's friend was considering one probably 1990ish and we went for a nosey. You literally entered from Princes St. Absolutely stunning view but even then the parking would have been prohibitive to the point of probably not worth having a car even then. 

Yeah, they would have to rent garage space in the Newtown. Friend of mine did that for parking during the day when he worked in Queen st. 

[westbow]

Get a monorail, what could go wrong?

[Bender]

On 05/01/2024 at 21:36, doddsyJR9 said:

The key to it has of course, coincided with successive anti car authorities being in charge. The parking prices in surrounding streets are exorbitant, and the risk of a parking ticket being found on a car upon return very high. Prince Street, the last time I was there, it was literally awash with council buses. The council has to take the blame for Princes Street's demise. There is no one else to blame.

 

Edinburgh, as a city, can't handle the amount of traffic it receives on a daily basis. Driving cars out of the city centre is an entirely understandable approach. There's plenty parking at the multiple park-and-rides outside the city, with one of the best public transport systems in Britain running in and out of the city centre. 

[Don Dan]

Driving around the roads are a disgrace. 3rd world standard doesn’t cover it,  pot holes filled in but what ever they are filling them with doesn’t last two minutes. 

[FWJ]

54 minutes ago, Samuel Camazzola said:

Out of interest, why do you think this would be a better option? 

 

In my opinion, I feel the opposite. This is only based on the road networks out that way not being very wide, the chaos the initial phases caused and the having no faith in costs being controlled. If possible, an expansion to the rail network would be more appealing. 

More stops between the city centre to places like Newington, Cameron Toll, the Royal, Bioquarter than off-road into the Midlothian towns Dalkeith, Bonnyrigg etc.  Midlothian is the fastest growing part of the country just now I believe.

I think that trams would be much cheaper to build & operate than a new train line.

The initial bit of the tram was managed abysmally but the extension to Leith has come in on budget - maybe lessons have been learned. 

[PortyJambo]

1 hour ago, westbow said:

Get a monorail, what could go wrong?

[stirlo]

3 hours ago, John Findlay said:

Rail.

Edinburgh Waverley currently has twenty platforms of those twenty platforms.

Platforms 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 19, and 20 are bi-directional, which means trains can run either East or West from them.

Platforms 3, 4, 5, 6, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 are buffer platforms, which means trains can only go one direction from them.

3, 4, 5, and 6 trains can only go East. 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 trains can only go West. There are only four tracks between Waverley and Haymarket. There are only two tracks going East. The Calton hill tunnels are only singled track.

So bringing the South suburban railway back into use, would probably cost upwards of a billion pounds due to all the infrastructure changes and upgrades that would be required.

If a billion pounds is available that will be used I should imagine for a tramline for the Southside of the city, possibly going out to the ERI and sick Children's hospital sites.

 

The City centre of Edinburgh is no longer for the local populace, it's tourist central.

 

When I was a boy growing up in the late 60s and 70s the tourist season was from the start of June through to the start of September.

Now it's the Twelve months of the year, and it won't be changing anytime soon.

 

Interesting post. I must say I'd never specifically noticed that there were only two tracks eastbound even though I've gone eastbound from the station many times - and I suppose it makes sense in that much of the East Coast Mainline is essentially two tracks.

 

There's no doubt that increasing rail capacity at Waverley (or Haymarket for that matter) would be very difficult without spending a lot of money - and it would probably need to involve the construction of new tunnels. 

 

But as per my previous post, I think it's quite concerning that all this building is going on in the Lothians without nearly enough consideration being given to how to develop the public transport infrastructure - which contradicts the whole movement to get people out of their cars. 

[PaddysBar]

Me and the Mrs took the kids in on the train from Newtongrange yesterday. 
 

A wee stroll up Cockburn street / high street to visit the castle. 
 

Then a stroll back down to vittorias on George iv bridge. 
 

The place was rammed with tourists. Nice to see. 
 

Edinburgh is a magnificent city, always has been, always will be. 
 

It’s never been perfect to look at, either because of its industrial past, gap sites in the 70s / 80s /90s but it’s still up there with the best cities in Europe. 
 

As others have pointed out, city centres are going through a period of change and princes street is ideally placed for hotels / restaurants etc. 

 

The Edinburgh critics should do a tour of every other major city in the UK then report back. I think they then might be more appreciative of what we have. 

[doddsyJR9]

8 hours ago, Bender said:

 

Edinburgh, as a city, can't handle the amount of traffic it receives on a daily basis. Driving cars out of the city centre is an entirely understandable approach. There's plenty parking at the multiple park-and-rides outside the city, with one of the best public transport systems in Britain running in and out of the city centre. 

For at least 3 decades Edinburgh has suffered terribly at the hands of successive Labour and Snp anti car policies. They have narrowed roads, caused congestion, and myriad city businesses have closed as a consequence. The proof is there. It's not only Edinburgh of course, countless city, town and village centres have been decimated at the anti car anti business left wing authoritarians. Hey, if you're happy at ever burgeoning charity shops opening up instead of high end shops, crack on, be happy, but don't treat us as idiots.

[stirlo]

21 minutes ago, PaddysBar said:

Me and the Mrs took the kids in on the train from Newtongrange yesterday. 
 

A wee stroll up Cockburn street / high street to visit the castle. 
 

Then a stroll back down to vittorias on George iv bridge. 
 

The place was rammed with tourists. Nice to see. 
 

Edinburgh is a magnificent city, always has been, always will be. 
 

It’s never been perfect to look at, either because of its industrial past, gap sites in the 70s / 80s /90s but it’s still up there with the best cities in Europe. 
 

As others have pointed out, city centres are going through a period of change and princes street is ideally placed for hotels / restaurants etc. 

 

The Edinburgh critics should do a tour of every other major city in the UK then report back. I think they then might be more appreciative of what we have. 

 

I don't think the 'Edinburgh critics' on this thread would dispute that Edinburgh compares favourably to most UK city centres - I think that can virtually be taken as read. I think the comparison is to European capital cities i.e. the reason we are criticising Edinburgh is because we hold the place in very high esteem and believe that in certain respects it's punching below its weight. 

 

Princes Street is one of the most spectacular through-fares in Europe but it's very difficult to argue that in terms of the retail offering and empty units, it's not in a good state.

[PaddysBar]

15 minutes ago, stirlo said:

 

I don't think the 'Edinburgh critics' on this thread would dispute that Edinburgh compares favourably to most UK city centres - I think that can virtually be taken as read. I think the comparison is to European capital cities i.e. the reason we are criticising Edinburgh is because we hold the place in very high esteem and believe that in certain respects it's punching below its weight. 

 

Princes Street is one of the most spectacular through-fares in Europe but it's very difficult to argue that in terms of the retail offering and empty units, it's not in a good state.

I don’t disagree with your last sentence but my point was that all high streets are facing the same issues (online shopping / out of town retail parks). 
 

Princes street is in the midst of change, hotels, Johnny walker experience etc but it will happen and it will be one of the best streets for eating/drinking/staying pretty soon in my opinion. 
 

I could be wrong but incidentally, Princes street was originally designed as residential, with George Street being the main retail thoroughfare. 
 

Perhaps the original city planners got it right after all. 

[stirlo]

1 minute ago, PaddysBar said:

I don’t disagree with your last sentence but my point was that all high streets are facing the same issues (online shopping / out of town retail parks). 
 

Princes street is in the midst of change, hotels, Johnny walker experience etc but it will happen and it will be one of the best streets for eating/drinking/staying pretty soon in my opinion. 
 

I could be wrong but incidentally, Princes street was originally designed as residential, with George Street being the main retail thoroughfare. 
 

Perhaps the original city planners got it right after all. 

 

I hope you're right about Princes Street. I think the problem is that Princes Street has been on the slide for a long time and there doesn't seem to have been any real plan for what to do with it. I think most people on this thread would agree that more restaurants, bars and public spaces is probably the way forward, but my fear is that it might take quite a long time to happen, because hospitality tends to favour places with a lot of footfall from retail (e.g. there are plenty of restaurants in the St James Quarter). The Johnny Walker experience is definitely a welcome addition, but I think it needs one or two other focal points like that to draw more life into it.  

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, PaddysBar said:

 

 

The Edinburgh critics should do a tour of every other major city in the UK then report back. I think they then might be more appreciative of what we have. 

 

Indeed.  Then move across and have a look at Dublin, which is showing pretty much the same issues.

 

The problem with Edinburgh isn't that it's worse than other places; it's that it's been better in the past.  It's still magnificent to look at, but it could be a bit better down at street level.

[Dawnrazor]

31 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Indeed.  Then move across and have a look at Dublin, which is showing pretty much the same issues.

 

The problem with Edinburgh isn't that it's worse than other places; it's that it's been better in the past.  It's still magnificent to look at, but it could be a bit better down at street level.

I think that's the bit, I don't want to go up into the centre when I'm there now, haven't been for about ten years now, what I hear and read on here puts me off.

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

If Edinburgh never had it's natural landscape and a castle it would be an ugly shithole but it's a good looking shithole

Just now like every other city centre up and down the country is tired and crumbling,they all need investing in, the big money bags wealthy companies, Investors and Scottish government really need to be splashing the cash on new infrastructure and assets , on rebuilding rather than holding onto it and not circulating the economy for all 

An international city like Edinburgh will always attract people wanting to live here and tourists from all over the world visit for a holiday but it could potentially be the best in the UK if it never had a radge clowncil going nuts in everything it does

[Bender]

2 hours ago, doddsyJR9 said:

For at least 3 decades Edinburgh has suffered terribly at the hands of successive Labour and Snp anti car policies. They have narrowed roads, caused congestion, and myriad city businesses have closed as a consequence. The proof is there. It's not only Edinburgh of course, countless city, town and village centres have been decimated at the anti car anti business left wing authoritarians. Hey, if you're happy at ever burgeoning charity shops opening up instead of high end shops, crack on, be happy, but don't treat us as idiots.

What a really strange reply. I’m merely expressing a fact. Edinburgh city centre was not designed for mass car use, what with it being quite a few centuries older than the automobile. Not that a lack of cars is even remotely linked to the decline of the street, it’s always packed on an afternoon either way. 
 

Try thinking a little bit harder about why there’s a noticeable decline in the number of high end shops and see what you come up with. A brand new shopping centre at one end and the massive increase in online shopping are probably going to have a bigger impact than you not being able to drive your motor up Princes Street and park outside Fraser Hart. 

[doddsyJR9]

26 minutes ago, Bender said:

What a really strange reply. I’m merely expressing a fact. Edinburgh city centre was not designed for mass car use, what with it being quite a few centuries older than the automobile. Not that a lack of cars is even remotely linked to the decline of the street, it’s always packed on an afternoon either way. 
 

Try thinking a little bit harder about why there’s a noticeable decline in the number of high end shops and see what you come up with. A brand new shopping centre at one end and the massive increase in online shopping are probably going to have a bigger impact than you not being able to drive your motor up Princes Street and park outside Fraser Hart. 

Nae worries, you mention the 'automobile', bye. Crackpot.

[Bender]

1 minute ago, doddsyJR9 said:

Nae worries, you mention the 'automobile', bye. Crackpot.

Nae worries, you think the left wing want to see an end to *checks notes* shops. Crackpot.