ri Alban Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, trotter said: Houston lol. But I lived in Edinburgh for 26 years, and still visit a couple of times per year. It's been getting worse. OK I'll grant you the £2 fare, but not the extra hour it takes to get from point A to point B Renfrewshire or Texas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 21 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Renfrewshire or Texas? Texas 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Just now, trotter said: Texas 🤣 Tax dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 11 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Tax dodger Unfortunately not. Tax/health insurance/other deductions works about roughly the same as I was in the UK. Sorry 😅 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Just now, trotter said: Unfortunately not. Tax/health insurance/other deductions works about roughly the same as I was in the UK. Sorry 😅 Mr Joe Rogan pays a bit less now. I heard the governor knocked back £15b to help the Rangers, Cops , Border guards fight wall jumpers. Politics in your new homeland is portrayed as mental. Is it that bad, bud? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 minute ago, ri Alban said: Mr Joe Rogan pays a bit less now. I heard the governor knocked back £15b to help the Rangers, Cops , Border guards fight wall jumpers. Politics in your new homeland is portrayed as mental. Is it that bad, bud? If you look at the hysterics from outside, yes. If you are here, no. Dint get me wrong, weird shit is going on, but it's not some lawless Mad Max society lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 4 minutes ago, trotter said: If you look at the hysterics from outside, yes. If you are here, no. Dint get me wrong, weird shit is going on, but it's not some lawless Mad Max society lol Yet! 👍 I hope you don't put Trump back in. Edited January 6 by ri Alban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 You never know, maybe if Edinburgh had become a Capital city of a new state in 2014, a lot of investment may have piled in and we would be part of the EU in some way anaw. Now, same as it's always been, paying through the nose and everything valuable funnelled into London. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtgj Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 9 hours ago, Ulysses said: I think it's true of cities in the "Anglo-American" world, but I'm not convinced that it's the same everywhere. I was in Bilbao last spring, and the kind of "tat shops" and shuttered places you frequently see in Irish and British cities were nowhere to be seen, and the streets were busy with shoppers - some tourists, but mainly locals. I had a similar experience in late 2022 in Lisbon city centre. I don't know what economic and cultural factors are at play. Maybe they shop online a lot less in Spain and Portugal, or maybe it's something else, but I can say that downtown Bilbao was a much more pleasant experience that the city centres of Dublin, Edinburgh or Glasgow. I remember reading an article about Paris a few months ago. I think it was in the FT but I can't find it now. Anyway, it was saying the UK should look more to the way buildings in Paris are built. Typically the city centre is full of mixed used buildings rather than zones with one type of building. I think you allude to that later but the one thing I thought was missing is residential. More residential flats with retail/office/cafes below would mean that people are in the area longer (because they live there). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gentleman Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 9 hours ago, Ulysses said: Public transport. Department stores first appeared before public transport became widespread, but the number of them grew rapidly as cities put in place buses, trams and metro systems. That's right. Then along came cars, with the attendant expectation of car parks. Then along came out-of-town "warehouse" stores. Then along came online shopping to administer the killer blow. I'm speculating here, but maybe southern European cities are a bit more insulated from decline as their climates are are more conducive to outdoors dining/entertainment experiences? I've heard from a few folk that Paris, another soggy northern city, has really gone downhill too. London also. Even the "posh" bits, apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Claws Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Scotland has Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Town Loafer Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 10 hours ago, Ulysses said: I think it's true of cities in the "Anglo-American" world, but I'm not convinced that it's the same everywhere. I was in Bilbao last spring, and the kind of "tat shops" and shuttered places you frequently see in Irish and British cities were nowhere to be seen, and the streets were busy with shoppers - some tourists, but mainly locals. I had a similar experience in late 2022 in Lisbon city centre. I don't know what economic and cultural factors are at play. Maybe they shop online a lot less in Spain and Portugal, or maybe it's something else, but I can say that downtown Bilbao was a much more pleasant experience that the city centres of Dublin, Edinburgh or Glasgow. You could be right. In fairness, I think Mediterranean (I know Portugal doesn’t count as such but it certainly has a similar culture) towns and cities are more robust when it comes to change owing to their culture. Their eating habits, for example. Chain restaurants aren’t a thing and people often have a small bite for breakfast, lunch or dinner at a local cafe or restaurant. This encourages people out of their house and means shopping - be it at a clothes shop or food shop - becomes part of this routine. They also set aside time to eat whereas Anglo countries eat ‘on the move’ or at their desk. The pace of life is slower over there and it helps the culture survive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indianajones Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Edinburgh is a dump. Its getting worse on almost a monthly basis. Shambolic management of an iconic city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OBE Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Yes, to OP. Council could install litter bins every 25 metres along streets for the shit public to deposit their shit in, but ken what, they'd overflow and wouldn't get emptied, we're all to blame. South facing Princes Street should/could be something extra special...💡 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SectionDJambo Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 13 hours ago, Dagger Is Back said: Spot on John. Have read lots of comments about litter in the streets with people blaming the council for that too. Easy scapegoats but the fact of the matter is that some people are just clarty, irresponsible and selfish lazy *******s. I remember reading a newspaper item, a few years ago now, about a young guy who was complaining about there being rats in Princes Street Gardens. He said that when he flung the rest of his burger bun on the ground, a rat appeared and took it away from his feet. Completely unaware that it was the likes of him who were attracting the rats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 George St is the new Princes St, it’s just out of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 36 minutes ago, Debut 4 said: George St is the new Princes St, it’s just out of view. Just level Princes St completely (or at least the middle part of it? May as well at this point... (Tongue firmly in cheek) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westbow Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 26 minutes ago, Debut 4 said: George St is the new Princes St, it’s just out of view. George St has both sides of the road too. The St.James Quarter is massive. Retail certainly is not dead in the city centre, although it will not go back to it's previous heights. It is the concession department store concept that is old fashioned and I am surprised John Lewis keeps going. Presumably because it has the market to its self nowadays. Princes Street will continue to evolve into hotels. residential housing, restaurants, smaller shops, cafes, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westbow Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 4 minutes ago, trotter said: Just level Princes St completely (or at least the middle part of it? May as well at this point... (Tongue firmly in cheek) They did that in the sixties, plus large chunks of St Andrews Square. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 5 minutes ago, trotter said: Just level Princes St completely (or at least the middle part of it? May as well at this point... (Tongue firmly in cheek) There were plans …. https://www.cobbletales.com/unbuilt-edinburgh/ Loving the motorway on stilts through Princes Street Gdns. You can still see the 1st floor walkway on a number of ‘modern’ buildings on Princes Street Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westbow Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 15 hours ago, EH11_2NL said: I was in town last Friday for the first time in a long time. Princes Street has certainly taken a dive. When you have a 'Day Today' grocers shop on a street like that, something is wrong. I was sorely disappointed 😞. Empty hotels? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westbow Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) . Edited January 6 by westbow Duplicate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 3 minutes ago, westbow said: George St has both sides of the road too. The St.James Quarter is massive. Retail certainly is not dead in the city centre, although it will not go back to it's previous heights. It is the concession department store concept that is old fashioned and I am surprised John Lewis keeps going. Presumably because it has the market to its self nowadays. Princes Street will continue to evolve into hotels. residential housing, restaurants, smaller shops, cafes, etc. And because of Princes Street’s location and outlook it will be a lot easier to attract these businesses than to streets in other cities like Sauchiehall Street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westbow Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Just now, FWJ said: And because of Princes Street’s location and outlook it will be a lot easier to attract these businesses than to streets in other cities like Sauchiehall Street. Imagine your residential address being Princes St, and having that view!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Just now, westbow said: Imagine your residential address being Princes St, and having that view!! Bizarrely people do live on Princes Street. I remember house hunting a few years ago and sitting trawling through the ESPC guide and seeing a flat there for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 minute ago, westbow said: Imagine your residential address being Princes St, and having that view!! Exactly With St James pulling people east I reckon they should ‘zone’ or encourage retail to the east end of Princes Street (maybe east of Hanover Street) and leave the rest for hotels, residential etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westbow Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 4 minutes ago, Tazio said: Bizarrely people do live on Princes Street. I remember house hunting a few years ago and sitting trawling through the ESPC guide and seeing a flat there for sale. West end? Before the old Frasers building perhaps. Above the American Express bank? (I only do directions from the eighties). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 2 hours ago, indianajones said: Edinburgh is a dump. Its getting worse on almost a monthly basis. Shambolic management of an iconic city. I remember Edinburgh in the 70s / 80s. It wasn’t better then. It was full of gaps of demolished buildings that looked like bomb sites. Half of Lothian Road, most of Haymarket, Castle Terrace. It was pretty dour. S**t shopping, s**t nightlife, s**t airport. Of course spiralling housing costs and shortages are a major problem for many, but the lower than average unemployment levels and the high demand for property in a rapidly expanding city suggests that it’s doing something right. Edited January 6 by FWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EIEIO Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 2 minutes ago, FWJ said: I remember Edinburgh in the 70s / 80s. It wasn’t better then. It was full of gaps of demolished buildings that looked like bomb sites. Half of Lothian Road, most of Haymarket, Castle Terrace. It was pretty dour. S**t shopping, s**t nightlife, s**t airport. Agreed. You even forgot Greenside Place where the Omni Centre is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 5 minutes ago, westbow said: West end? Before the old Frasers building perhaps. Above the American Express bank? (I only do directions from the eighties). Various points all the way along. Obviously there are still old duffers who live in The New Club but there also flats at the top of a few of the buildings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 3 minutes ago, EIEIO said: Agreed. You even forgot Greenside Place where the Omni Centre is now. 👍 And while it’s certainly not my cup of tea (at my age) the Cowgate is transformed too. Edited January 6 by FWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRiver Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 12 hours ago, Tazio said: So there’s a car park on Castle Terrace at the West End, and there’s one next to the Omni Centre at the East End. So if you’re desperate to drive into town on you go. Or is that problematic if you need to get to Hanover Street or George Street? Some folk can't waddle the length of themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 A lot of nonsense posted on this thread in my opinion. Princes Street will recover over the next decade or so into something different from retail. The big problem is trying to come up with a solution to remove buses from Princes Street. A proper fix would cost billions. But the city is buzzing, growing and changing. Do any of the posters with the ultra negative view spend any time in it? Name me a comparable sized city in the UK doing better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Just now, BlueRiver said: Some folk can't waddle the length of themselves. The point I was subtly making but nobody took the bait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 31 minutes ago, FWJ said: There were plans …. https://www.cobbletales.com/unbuilt-edinburgh/ Loving the motorway on stilts through Princes Street Gdns. You can still see the 1st floor walkway on a number of ‘modern’ buildings on Princes Street Genuinely didn't know that one, thanks for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRiver Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 minute ago, Tazio said: The point I was subtly making but nobody took the bait. Ah don't worry I'll come in with the two footer. Honestly don't know what some folk expect from a public transport set up. Edinburgh probably has the best in Scotland that I've seen and it's a damn sight better than most of England. Never enough though for the crowd that want to mount the curb outside McDonalds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 12 hours ago, Tazio said: So there’s a car park on Castle Terrace at the West End, and there’s one next to the Omni Centre at the East End. So if you’re desperate to drive into town on you go. Or is that problematic if you need to get to Hanover Street or George Street? Sorry Taz, just saw this. Yes, they do both exist, but have 1) exorbitant costs due to being run by private parking firms, and 2) have limited number of spaces. I've honestly lost count of the number of times I couldn't get parked in Edinburgh, had to drive around for a bit, but still saved time rather than using public transport. The word that is somehow missing from this discussion is 'integrated'. Make sure the buses run on time, regularly, make it easier for them to move, and make sure buses/trams/trains are easy to swap from. That last point I will admit ECC seem to have accidentally done. The only way to get people onto public transport is to make it attractive to do so. Right now it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 7 minutes ago, pablo said: A lot of nonsense posted on this thread in my opinion. Princes Street will recover over the next decade or so into something different from retail. The big problem is trying to come up with a solution to remove buses from Princes Street. A proper fix would cost billions. But the city is buzzing, growing and changing. Do any of the posters with the ultra negative view spend any time in it? Name me a comparable sized city in the UK doing better. Spoiler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 2 minutes ago, trotter said: Sorry Taz, just saw this. Yes, they do both exist, but have 1) exorbitant costs due to being run by private parking firms, and 2) have limited number of spaces. I've honestly lost count of the number of times I couldn't get parked in Edinburgh, had to drive around for a bit, but still saved time rather than using public transport. The word that is somehow missing from this discussion is 'integrated'. Make sure the buses run on time, regularly, make it easier for them to move, and make sure buses/trams/trains are easy to swap from. That last point I will admit ECC seem to have accidentally done. The only way to get people onto public transport is to make it attractive to do so. Right now it isn't. Can't you drive to a park and ride and get a bus or tram in. Or drive to an out of town train stop and get the train in to Waverley? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Apologies for hijacking the thread somewhat, but another example from this morning. https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/edinburgh-trams-parking-bays-on-route-of-extension-could-be-removed-after-bad-parking-blocks-tracks-4468203 Bad parking blocking the trams, so the immediate response is to remove the parking spots. Not to have ensured Thatcher wouldn't foul the tram tracks when they were put in. If people are parking badly, TOW THEM. They will soon learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRiver Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 minute ago, pablo said: Can't you drive to a park and ride and get a bus or tram in. Or drive to an out of town train stop and get the train in to Waverley? Of course they could. But then you can't moan your pus off about your choices having consequences 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 12 minutes ago, pablo said: A lot of nonsense posted on this thread in my opinion. Princes Street will recover over the next decade or so into something different from retail. The big problem is trying to come up with a solution to remove buses from Princes Street. A proper fix would cost billions. But the city is buzzing, growing and changing. Do any of the posters with the ultra negative view spend any time in it? Name me a comparable sized city in the UK doing better. Agree with most of this. But the thread was talking about right now, not in a decade. I don't think there is a solution to removing buses from PS. It's a relatively major arterial route across the city centre for them. If the pedestrian only plan for GS goes ahead, then the only option is to move them to QS. But even then you are just moving the problem somewhere else. Not to mention from an accessibility standpoint you have a fairly steep hill to get to where you want to go. I'm genuinely scratching my head at this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 14 minutes ago, pablo said: Can't you drive to a park and ride and get a bus or tram in. Or drive to an out of town train stop and get the train in to Waverley? For me, physically yes, but it's not attractive. Nearest park and ride is Straiton, even then it's still almost an hour to get to town. Rail connections are non-existent for people in Midlothian. I believe your options would be somewhere out towards Newtongrange/Gorebridge or Edinburgh Park. So it still adds on significant travel time. Also, those stations don't have a significant amount of parking spaces. All of which goes back to main point, for a large part, public transport in and around Edinburgh is inconvenient. So there is little incentive to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 13 hours ago, FWJ said: How did all the big department stores develop and thrive when hardly anyone had cars? Possibly because there was a lot more people concentrated closer to the city centre itself. Leith Street,Lothian Road,Morrison Street,Pleasance to name a few. All flats accommodating a heck of a lot of families demolished and pushed further out from the city centre. This surely couldn’t have helped such a vibrant city centre. Students are all occupying the flats in close proximity (Marchmont, etc)to the centre now and they don’t spend nearly as much as the local residents before them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 33 minutes ago, trotter said: Agree with most of this. But the thread was talking about right now, not in a decade. I don't think there is a solution to removing buses from PS. It's a relatively major arterial route across the city centre for them. If the pedestrian only plan for GS goes ahead, then the only option is to move them to QS. But even then you are just moving the problem somewhere else. Not to mention from an accessibility standpoint you have a fairly steep hill to get to where you want to go. I'm genuinely scratching my head at this one. I know. You're really looking at an underground bus only route West to East with access to the stops below from street level. Shudder to think of the complexity and cost of something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 17 minutes ago, pablo said: I know. You're really looking at an underground bus only route West to East with access to the stops below from street level. Shudder to think of the complexity and cost of something like that. You can dig under Edinburgh, well at least the New Town. You can still see the entrance to the old Scotland Street tunnel at platform 2 (?) at Waverley as proof. But yeah, it's likely to be a lot of cost. Could you reinstate the old Suburban Line from freight only to passengers? It takes you to Waverley albeit by a circuitous route, but you need to get to a boarding station in the first place (bus and train ride?), none of which exist anymore so would need rebuilt - again the costs would be enormous. But it would allow you to remove most, if not all buses from the city centre. I think if it's going to be properly solved there needs to be a concerted effort for all parties involved to bite the bullet and deal with it once and for all, however that may be. A piecemeal approach will ultimately cost more, take longer and probably not actually help that much. Edited January 6 by trotter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) If you look at the original routing, there is reasonable access to it from the East, West and South. The north is a little more difficult, but you have trams running from Newhaven which would alleviate that. I think it is mostly single track now, so you would have to double it to allow trains in both directions and stop someone having to circumvent the entire city. Costly, but not beyond the ken of mortal man. Edited January 6 by trotter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EIEIO Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, FWJ said: 👍 And while it’s certainly not my cup of tea (at my age) the Cowgate is transformed too. Forgot about Tollcross around former Goldbergs being semi derilict. Huge transformation in both Morrison Street and Fountainbrige too. Massive changes since 1980s, still room for improvement though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 6 minutes ago, trotter said: If you look at the original routing, there is reasonable access to it from the East, West and South. The north is a little more difficult, but you have trams running from Newhaven which would alleviate that. I think it is mostly single track now, so you would have to double it to allow trains in both directions and stop someone having to circumvent the entire city. Costly, but not beyond the ken of mortal man. Buses are timetabled at 25 minutes from the bottom of Morningside road into town. The train would be a long way round. There’s also the problem of platform space at Waverley. There might be a case for trains from the north and west (and from the other direction the south and east) using the southern part to access major employment centres like the new Royal & bioquarter bypassing Haymarket / Waverley but I think that’s really marginal TBH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 12 minutes ago, EIEIO said: Forgot about Tollcross around former Goldbergs being semi derilict. Huge transformation in both Morrison Street and Fountainbrige too. Massive changes since 1980s, still room for improvement though. Yup Lot of rose-tinted specs around about what Edinburgh used to be like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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