Ulysses Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, AlphonseCapone said: I think that's the only way to go to bring something back to main streets and better than lambasting the fact the internet exists and folk use it to do shopping now. It might improve streets that are currently "retail" streets a lot. A lot of streets where the focus is on retail are closed after 6 pm with nothing happening on them and nobody walking along them. That tends to create a bit of a bleak atmosphere and encourages anti-social and criminal behaviour. Busy streets tend to be safer streets, especially in the evening time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: Kendal had a similar thing, built by an Irish man, Seamus Jennings, K Village, it's now a residential block. Even little ole Ft William had MacLennans. Menswear, Ladieswear, ‘fancy goods’ a barber, a deli and a very good cafe. It’s a Sports Direct now ☹️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: Kendal had a similar thing, built by an Irish man, Seamus Jennings, K Village, it's now a residential block. I think Jennings was one of our "superstar" developers who over-reached himself a bit in the Celtic Tiger era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 minutes ago, Ulysses said: I think Jennings was one of our "superstar" developers who over-reached himself a bit in the Celtic Tiger era. I actually know him, he's a keen shooting and fishing man, he owns the Boleside beat on the Tweed, I'd not wanted a punch in the pus off him in his prime! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddsyJR9 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 59 minutes ago, FWJ said: Us. The public choosing to shop online rather than in city centres. Us. The public choosing to shop in out-of-town aircraft hangers rather than in city centres. And I don’t believe in the “shoppers deserted city centres because they can’t park”. The glory days of Edinburgh shopping (Binn’s, Small’s, RW Forsyth’s, Jenner’s, Patrick Thomson etc) was before most people had cars. We got lazy and expected / expect to be able to drive from outside our house to outside where we want to shop. And if the ‘shopping environment’ is poor because of litter - that’s because of us too. We want to be able to stuff our faces with s***e while we walk down the street and are too lazy to put the associated detritus in a bin. Yeah, that's why Princes Street is devoid now of class and instead full of shit and tat. All of us were stuffing our faces with pizza etc, and too lazy to put in a bin. I take it you must be anti car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 8 minutes ago, Ulysses said: A couple of posters said earlier in the thread that the key to improving places like Princes Street is a shift to restaurants, bars and the like. I think that's also true of small and medium sized towns. certainly that is the ECC plan... Problem is that eating and drinking out is expensive in the UK. A glut of supply might force prices down but not if landlords still want their large rents - Even at £4 you need to sell a lot of coffee and cake to equate to one jumper or a pair of shoes...Would you go to Princes Street just to buy a sandwich if there is not much other reason to be there? Young people get tanked up on supermarket booze before they go out now, and they meet partners online as they haven't the social skills to chat each other up in person... Since Covid it appears that the only things being built is more and more luxury student accomodation near the centre of town, probably because the private flats in the centre are all becoming AirBnBs. There are plenty of chain hotels opening up in buildings that used to be shops and offices too...but this seems to mean that all you see in town are zombie tourists wandering around looking for stuff to do. Princes Street is a disgrace but it has been for 30-40 years and it had allowed to get worse and worse. It is just the losses of Jenners and Frasers which has woken up the majority to acknowledge it. A couple of weeks ago I had to post 5 bags of Nespresso capsules via Royal Mail because I don't think the Nespresso shop is coming back within the St James centre...Christ we even have to do recycling by mail now! A lot of generalisations in the above, but generalisations are generally correct... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, doddsyJR9 said: Yeah, that's why Princes Street is devoid now of class and instead full of shit and tat. All of us were stuffing our faces with pizza etc, and too lazy to put in a bin. I take it you must be anti car? Nope. I’ve got a car and use it fairly regularly. Not in the centre of Edinburgh if I can avoid it though. If I wanted to live in a place designed for cars I’d move to Cumbernauld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddsyJR9 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, FWJ said: Nope. I’ve got a car and use it fairly regularly. Not in the centre of Edinburgh if I can avoid it though. If I wanted to live in a place designed for cars I’d move to Cumbernauld An snp voter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, Spellczech said: certainly that is the ECC plan... Problem is that eating and drinking out is expensive in the UK. A glut of supply might force prices down but not if landlords still want their large rents - Even at £4 you need to sell a lot of coffee and cake to equate to one jumper or a pair of shoes...Would you go to Princes Street just to buy a sandwich if there is not much other reason to be there? Young people get tanked up on supermarket booze before they go out now, and they meet partners online as they haven't the social skills to chat each other up in person... Since Covid it appears that the only things being built is more and more luxury student accomodation near the centre of town, probably because the private flats in the centre are all becoming AirBnBs. There are plenty of chain hotels opening up in buildings that used to be shops and offices too...but this seems to mean that all you see in town are zombie tourists wandering around looking for stuff to do. Princes Street is a disgrace but it has been for 30-40 years and it had allowed to get worse and worse. It is just the losses of Jenners and Frasers which has woken up the majority to acknowledge it. A couple of weeks ago I had to post 5 bags of Nespresso capsules via Royal Mail because I don't think the Nespresso shop is coming back within the St James centre...Christ we even have to do recycling by mail now! A lot of generalisations in the above, but generalisations are generally correct... The Nespresso store is in John Lewis now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 1 minute ago, doddsyJR9 said: An snp voter? Nope. But I’ve noticed the centre of Edinburgh is medieval / Georgian. It’s difficult to marry that with unlimited use of motor vehicles. Edited January 5 by FWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddsyJR9 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, FWJ said: Nope An agitator, weirdo, what stimulates you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroongoals Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 yes and very sad to watch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddsyJR9 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Dearie me, not a Green? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, FWJ said: The Nespresso store is in John Lewis now. Do they do recycling? ...as it was a pain in the backside having to get 5 separate Q codes and finding them to offer up for scanning a the Mail depot which doesn't open for long anymore... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 minutes ago, doddsyJR9 said: An agitator, weirdo, what stimulates you? Walking down North Bridge and looking left. You? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Spellczech said: Do they do recycling? ...as it was a pain in the backside having to get 5 separate Q codes and finding them to offer up for scanning a the Mail depot which doesn't open for long anymore... Don’t know TBH but I’d assume so. I got a wee plastic press thing that bursts the used capsules and squeezes out the grounds so you can put the capsule in your metal recycling and the grounds in the compost! Edited January 5 by FWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddsyJR9 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, FWJ said: Walking down North Bridge and looking left. You? I am merely, an old fashioned unruly boys brigade man. The opposite of you Greens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, doddsyJR9 said: I am merely, an old fashioned unruly boys brigade man. The opposite of you Greens. I’ve never voted Green in my life and I’m very unlikely to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 So there’s a car park on Castle Terrace at the West End, and there’s one next to the Omni Centre at the East End. So if you’re desperate to drive into town on you go. Or is that problematic if you need to get to Hanover Street or George Street? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddsyJR9 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 2 minutes ago, FWJ said: I’ve never voted Green in my life and I’m very unlikely to. So why do you try to undermine me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, Tazio said: So there’s a car park on Castle Terrace at the West End, and there’s one next to the Omni Centre at the East End. So if you’re desperate to drive into town on you go. Or is that problematic if you need to get to Hanover Street or George Street? If I’m desperate to park in town there’s usually (metered) spaces on Queen Street Gardens West / East. (Extensions of Frederick Street / Hanover Street) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 3 minutes ago, doddsyJR9 said: So why do you try to undermine me? Because it’s proving to be quite diverting. Edited January 5 by FWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddsyJR9 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, FWJ said: Because it’s proving to be quite diverting. Diverting how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddsyJR9 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 And its a man how. How? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddsyJR9 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Not a Webley come and get me how, HOW is it diverting HOW? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 4 minutes ago, doddsyJR9 said: Diverting how? Because I’ve become fairly sure you’re fishing for bites and I was happy enough to go along with it. But it’s now OT and pretty boring for everyone else on this otherwise decent thread so I’m going to leave it at that for just now and wish you a good night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddsyJR9 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Ach I'm away back to bed. God Bless good folks. Love is All. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddsyJR9 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Just now, FWJ said: Because I’ve become fairly sure you’re fishing for bites and I was happy enough to go along with it. But it’s now OT and pretty boring for everyone else on this otherwise decent thread so I’m going to leave it at that for just now and wish you a good night. Night Night Sweetheart. keep dreaming everyone puts pizza boxes in the street for the council to raise taxes, dreamer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger Is Back Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, doddsyJR9 said: It is of course your right to disagree with my reasoned opinion, but would you care to list the unsaid factors you refer to, in order to strengthen your disagreeing? Appreciate your polite and articulate response. In general Technology - makes it easier for people to buy online often at a discount. More and more people are comfortable with technology and buying online doesn't carry the same security concerns it once did. An easy life - rather than get off their arse, travel into town and support businesses, some people prefer to sit at home and order online Time - some people rightly or wrongly, feel they don't have enough time in their day to spend on their priorities. If they can save time by ordering on line they can spend that time on leisure activities/binge watching the latest in vogue box set I don't buy that it's solely the Councils fault. I think transport links across the city are pretty decent. I think the discouragement to drive cars in the centre makes sense. Can't think of anything worse than sitting in traffic jams and looking for a parking space when I can jump on a bus or tram. As a society we've moved on in the way that we shop. It's evolution. I'm sure that some people get a buzz out of sitting on their phone, placing an order, tracking its path and then having it delivered next day all without having to get up. In terms of Edinburgh city centre, the thing that gets to me is the mess that 'we've' left the streets with our waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 38 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: I'd not wanted a punch in the pus off him in his prime! I can say that about most builders and developers I've met. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddsyJR9 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 7 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said: Appreciate your polite and articulate response. In general Technology - makes it easier for people to buy online often at a discount. More and more people are comfortable with technology and buying online doesn't carry the same security concerns it once did. An easy life - rather than get off their arse, travel into town and support businesses, some people prefer to sit at home and order online Time - some people rightly or wrongly, feel they don't have enough time in their day to spend on their priorities. If they can save time by ordering on line they can spend that time on leisure activities/binge watching the latest in vogue box set I don't buy that it's solely the Councils fault. I think transport links across the city are pretty decent. I think the discouragement to drive cars in the centre makes sense. Can't think of anything worse than sitting in traffic jams and looking for a parking space when I can jump on a bus or tram. As a society we've moved on in the way that we shop. It's evolution. I'm sure that some people get a buzz out of sitting on their phone, placing an order, tracking its path and then having it delivered next day all without having to get up. In terms of Edinburgh city centre, the thing that gets to me is the mess that 'we've' left the streets with our waste. If any of that was true, we'd do the opposite in governance. Lower rates, parking charges, make it actually attractive to do business in the city centre, not the opposite. dearie me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger Is Back Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 31 minutes ago, doddsyJR9 said: If any of that was true, we'd do the opposite in governance. Lower rates, parking charges, make it actually attractive to do business in the city centre, not the opposite. dearie me. In your opinion of course. You just keep on blaming the council then champ. Dearie me? 🤷🏻 Edited January 6 by Dagger Is Back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hmfc1965 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 31 minutes ago, doddsyJR9 said: If any of that was true, we'd do the opposite in governance. Lower rates, parking charges, make it actually attractive to do business in the city centre, not the opposite. dearie me. How exactly would lower parking charges, and presumably no restrictions on cars in the city centre, make for a better experience? It would be carnage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 2 hours ago, FWJ said: How did all the big department stores develop and thrive when hardly anyone had cars? Because Edinburgh had a public transport system that actually worked. What we have now is a disjointed service with no joined up thinking, excessive prices for an arguably poor product, and STILL a war on cars. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Edinburgh city centre if not all, mostly car free, but the only way to do that is to replace it with an affordable, but more importantly reliable as well as useful transport network (by which I mean you can get a bus/tram from roughly where you are and let it take you roughly where you need to go). Edinburgh, despite what the council says, doesn't have that. Having been back home over Xmas, I can attest to that. An hour and a half to get into town from Penicuik, because Lothian Buses (presumably to save money), binned their express busses years ago and now basically run one that has to go through Roslin, Loanhead, Straiton Park. Mostly on roads with no defined bus lanes. I can drive into town in 30 mins. Where's the incentive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 2 minutes ago, trotter said: Because Edinburgh had a public transport system that actually worked. What we have now is a disjointed service with no joined up thinking, excessive prices for an arguably poor product, and STILL a war on cars. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Edinburgh city centre if not all, mostly car free, but the only way to do that is to replace it with an affordable, but more importantly reliable as well as useful transport network (by which I mean you can get a bus/tram from roughly where you are and let it take you roughly where you need to go). Edinburgh, despite what the council says, doesn't have that. Having been back home over Xmas, I can attest to that. An hour and a half to get into town from Penicuik, because Lothian Buses (presumably to save money), binned their express busses years ago and now basically run one that has to go through Roslin, Loanhead, Straiton Park. Mostly on roads with no defined bus lanes. I can drive into town in 30 mins. Where's the incentive? Out of interest where do you live? In my experience Edinburgh still has a very good bus service compared to most cities and cheaper. They may have messed up the service to Penicuik but in town it’s still very good, £2 for unlimited stops and a cap on money spent if you pay with contactless so you can have an entire day of getting around the city for £5.40 no matter how many journeys you take. I remember paying over £2 for 5 stops in Brighton 10 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 14 minutes ago, trotter said: Because Edinburgh had a public transport system that actually worked. What we have now is a disjointed service with no joined up thinking, excessive prices for an arguably poor product, and STILL a war on cars. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Edinburgh city centre if not all, mostly car free, but the only way to do that is to replace it with an affordable, but more importantly reliable as well as useful transport network (by which I mean you can get a bus/tram from roughly where you are and let it take you roughly where you need to go). Edinburgh, despite what the council says, doesn't have that. Having been back home over Xmas, I can attest to that. An hour and a half to get into town from Penicuik, because Lothian Buses (presumably to save money), binned their express busses years ago and now basically run one that has to go through Roslin, Loanhead, Straiton Park. Mostly on roads with no defined bus lanes. I can drive into town in 30 mins. Where's the incentive? You’re lamenting the lack of bus lanes and the ‘war on cars’. There’s plenty, including on here, who complain that more bus lanes are part of this ‘war’ I’ve been using buses in Edinburgh for 50 years and they’re at least as good now as they ever were. (The way people ‘queue’ for them now, though? Don’t get me started….) Edited January 6 by FWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagey Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 4 hours ago, EH11_2NL said: I was in town last Friday for the first time in a long time. Princes Street has certainly taken a dive. When you have a 'Day Today' grocers shop on a street like that, something is wrong. I was sorely disappointed 😞. I travel back home a few times a year and whilst I get the buzz being back in my home town, it looks like crap in some places. Always feel it looks more grimey than it used to and a bit downtrodden. Although in defence of the Day Today shop, it was the only place I could get Revels to bring back with me to US, no other supermarket had them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 9 minutes ago, Tazio said: Out of interest where do you live? In my experience Edinburgh still has a very good bus service compared to most cities and cheaper. They may have messed up the service to Penicuik but in town it’s still very good, £2 for unlimited stops and a cap on money spent if you pay with contactless so you can have an entire day of getting around the city for £5.40 no matter how many journeys you take. I remember paying over £2 for 5 stops in Brighton 10 years ago. Houston lol. But I lived in Edinburgh for 26 years, and still visit a couple of times per year. It's been getting worse. OK I'll grant you the £2 fare, but not the extra hour it takes to get from point A to point B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 11 minutes ago, FWJ said: You’re lamenting the lack of bus lanes and the ‘war on cars’. There’s plenty, including on here, who complain that more bus lanes are part of this ‘war’ They aren't mutually exclusive. If they want to get rid of cars, you need both BETTER and MORE public transport. It isn't just bus lanes. Ridiculous 'traffic caming' measures, a completely insufficient quantity of available parking, not to mention the utterly ludicrous almost blanket 20 mph speed limit, which is supposedly partly for environmental reasons, but ignores the fact that driving at low speed is actually less efficient for modern engines. Edited January 6 by trotter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Just now, trotter said: They aren't mutually exclusive. If they want to get rid of cars, you need both BETTER and MORE public transport. And one of the best ways to make buses faster is if there are fewer cars. Chicken & egg I suppose. And more tram lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 12 minutes ago, Tazio said: Out of interest where do you live? In my experience Edinburgh still has a very good bus service compared to most cities and cheaper. They may have messed up the service to Penicuik but in town it’s still very good, £2 for unlimited stops and a cap on money spent if you pay with contactless so you can have an entire day of getting around the city for £5.40 no matter how many journeys you take. I remember paying over £2 for 5 stops in Brighton 10 years ago. Yep, and I have to say that whenever I'm in Edinburgh and then get back to Dublin, I spend ages moaning about how much better the bus service is in Edinburgh. We have introduced this standard unlimited €2 fare, which is pretty decent, but you take pot luck with routes and service quality here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 I’ve found it’s the only thing Glaswegians will allow is better here than in the Weeg - the buses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 3 minutes ago, FWJ said: I’ve found it’s the only thing Glaswegians will allow is better here than in the Weeg - the buses. Glasgow buses are absolutely awful. Not just the services but the state of the buses and the operators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 27 minutes ago, trotter said: They aren't mutually exclusive. If they want to get rid of cars, you need both BETTER and MORE public transport. It isn't just bus lanes. Ridiculous 'traffic caming' measures, a completely insufficient quantity of available parking, not to mention the utterly ludicrous almost blanket 20 mph speed limit, which is supposedly partly for environmental reasons, but ignores the fact that driving at low speed is actually less efficient for modern engines. I’m pretty sure the 20mph thing is more to do with safety (although if it makes much difference is the subject of much disagreement) If I’m driving down Slateford Rd it’s a pain in the hoop doing 20mph. But if I’m walking down it, it’s a lot more pleasant there than walking along Queensferry Rd where everyone’s doing 40mph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 4 minutes ago, FWJ said: I’m pretty sure the 20mph thing is more to do with safety (although if it makes much difference is the subject of much disagreement) If I’m driving down Slateford Rd it’s a pain in the hoop doing 20mph. But if I’m walking down it, it’s a lot more pleasant there than walking along Queensferry Rd where everyone’s doing 40mph. We're going for 30 km/h, which is actually slower than 20 mph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Ulysses said: We're going for 30 km/h, which is actually slower than 20 mph. It’s actually really difficult to drive that slowly. You have to keep on checking your speedo and it’s frustrating. But - if you’re walking along on the pavement it’s quite nice, less intimidating. Edited January 6 by FWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 5 minutes ago, FWJ said: It’s actually really difficult to drive that slowly. You have to keep on checking your speedo and it’s frustrating. Adaptive cruise control is the thing for that. 5 minutes ago, FWJ said: But - if you’re walking along on the pavement it’s quite nice, less intimidating. It is indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 I think 20mph is too slow for my cruise control! It’s funny - and quite a coincidence. I was driving along a road today at the 20mph limit and I remember clearly when I was getting lessons 40-odd years ago on exactly the same bit of road being told to keep my speed up because ‘failure to make progress’ could fail you in your driving test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
periodictabledancer Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, trotter said: Houston lol. But I lived in Edinburgh for 26 years, and still visit a couple of times per year. It's been getting worse. OK I'll grant you the £2 fare, but not the extra hour it takes to get from point A to point B I couldn't agree more. One hour (or as good as ) to get from Morningside to Queen Street : three miles. Did it once and never bothered again and just avoided the city centre altogether. In fact, I've rarely visited the city centre in the last 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 8 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said: I couldn't agree more. One hour (or as good as ) to get from Morningside to Queen Street : three miles. Did it once and never bothered again and just avoided the city centre altogether. In fact, I've rarely visited the city centre in the last 10 years. Last week when I was back, my old man dropped us off at Fairmilehead to catch a no. 11. From the junction next to the old BoS at the top end of Morningside to the bottom of Lothian Road was the best part of 45 mins. Largely thanks to the idiotic cycle lanes they've put in, whilst keeping disabled parking spots. This means that any car parked juts out into the road effectively turning it into one way traffic. There is, and has been for some time, a stunning level of incompetence in urban planning at ECC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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