Felix Lighter Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said: That's what I meant by the first sentence. The rape allegation is clear criminality but there is a hell of a lot of stuff been put in amongst it all that is **** behaviour but not illegal. You can obviously use these things to create evidence of a pattern of behaviour but it doesn't mean automatically he's guilty of criminality and vice versa. Re the other situation, bit of a touchy subject so I don't ask unless they bring it up. There haven't been any charges against her that I'm aware of. He got in a short term relationship with someone who he then split up with and she made allegations that he was inappropriate with her teenage daughter. Just a spiteful cow. So the mother made the accusations and coerced her teenage daughter to testify against him and she broke down giving evidence? Edited September 19, 2023 by Felix Lighter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byyy The Light Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said: I do agree that it would be better if alleged crimes involving sexual assault were kept private until it goes to court and a verdict agreed. I think the TV documentary was good though as it exposed the turn a blind eye attitude of program makers if the star of their show is racking in the money for them but behaving like a sexual predator on and off stage. Alleged. That's kind of the point. His take is everything he did was consensual and everyone knew he was a top sh*gger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byyy The Light Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, Felix Lighter said: So the mother made the accusations and coerced her teenage daughter to testify against him and she broke down giving evidence? Pretty much the long and short of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Lighter Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 1 minute ago, Byyy The Light said: Pretty much the long and short of it. Jings, as much as the guy has been put through the ringer, and hopefully he gets back on his feet, what sort of sick individual would force their child to do that? Would it perhaps come under 'defeating the ends of justice' or perjury? She should be getting done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 While it is awful for a person wrongly accused statistically they are pretty rare compared with the real numbers of proper recognised abuses. Of course false accusers should face consequences . But it takes away from the real issue of abuse The figures on rape and sexual assault are on an epidemic level . 1 in 4 women have been raped or sexually assaulted as an adult in the england/Wales (I guess same for scotland) . 1 in 18 for men . 1 in 6 children have been sexualy abused . https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/statistics-sexual-violence/ In the case of Brand ,it is in the public interest that he is named because of the nature allegations raised it. I dont like how innocent until proven is getting used by some people in a similar way as freedom of speech . It's an important part of law but it shouldn't be used as a shield or to argue don't look now . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byyy The Light Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 7 minutes ago, Felix Lighter said: Jings, as much as the guy has been put through the ringer, and hopefully he gets back on his feet, what sort of sick individual would force their child to do that? Would it perhaps come under 'defeating the ends of justice' or perjury? She should be getting done. No idea, technically the case would be against the daughter as she was the alleged victim. I doubt he has any desire to pursue anything and just wants to move on with his life. Been through enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Lighter Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said: No idea, technically the case would be against the daughter as she was the alleged victim. I doubt he has any desire to pursue anything and just wants to move on with his life. Been through enough. Aye, fair enough if that's the way he feels, I can't imagine what he's been through. I'm tempted to think though, if it was me I'd gunning for the mother, given she also has previous. What about the next guy that hooks up with her? Anyway, I'll leave it there, a wee bit off topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey J J Jr Shabadoo Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 1 hour ago, the posh bit said: Pretty sure the PM advises the monarchy on CoE appointments. Pretty sure Old Liz paid immense value to Johnson's advice, mind. Also pretty sure the current PM is a Hindu? Yes, the current PM has similar absurd beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundermann Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 9 hours ago, Cade said: Shame that Teresea May "lost" the MP/Lords sex abuse dossier which was handed to her when she was Home Secretary..... Forgot about that. The Tories... evil barstewards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundermann Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 2 hours ago, Placid Casual said: The alleged rape in LA though, for which it is reported that there is evidence that collaborates it? And that the alleged victim went to a rape crisis centre the next day, receiving treatment for several weeks. Remains to be seen if this will be reported to the police there. There's a paper trail for that apparently. Hard to see how he can shrug that one off. If Brand is found guilty, maybe he can hide in Prince Andrew's US-proof nonce-shelter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the posh bit Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said: Yes, the current PM has similar absurd beliefs. 😁 😁 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Gundermann said: Forgot about that. The Tories... evil barstewards. The British state in general. Riddled with sex cases and nonces. Protected by it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey J J Jr Shabadoo Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Jim_Duncan said: TBF, eight armed elephant gods and the like are more realistic than him turning this slow moving wreck of a country around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundermann Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 47 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: The British state in general. Riddled with sex cases and nonces. Protected by it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundermann Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Jim_Duncan said: TBF, eight armed elephant gods and the like are more realistic than him turning this slow moving wreck of a country around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 4 hours ago, ToadKiller Dog said: While it is awful for a person wrongly accused statistically they are pretty rare compared with the real numbers of proper recognised abuses. Of course false accusers should face consequences . But it takes away from the real issue of abuse The figures on rape and sexual assault are on an epidemic level . 1 in 4 women have been raped or sexually assaulted as an adult in the england/Wales (I guess same for scotland) . 1 in 18 for men . 1 in 6 children have been sexualy abused . https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/statistics-sexual-violence/ In the case of Brand ,it is in the public interest that he is named because of the nature allegations raised it. I dont like how innocent until proven is getting used by some people in a similar way as freedom of speech . It's an important part of law but it shouldn't be used as a shield or to argue don't look now . . Wished I'd not posted and left it to you to . Great Post mate 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 How did he get away with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Gin Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticJambo Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 RB in controversial chat bollix shock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey J J Jr Shabadoo Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 2 hours ago, Ray Gin said: Ali G impersonator, Tim Westwood, is another in a very long line of BBC nonces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
been here before Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 35 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said: Ali G impersonator, Tim Westwood, is another in a very long line of BBC nonces. Be as well lobbing in John Peel too if we're talking BBC DJ noncers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That thing you do Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 3 hours ago, Ray Gin said: In light of the allegations these look bad but I can imagine Frankie Boyle saying the same thing, minus the allegations, and its just funny again (to many). And thats why the way the dispatches/media have dealt with all this with snippets like this and dramatic music concern me greatly. Not just that it makes a trial more complicated if he gets charged, but it gives an avenue where he mihgt wriggle out of justice if he is guilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey J J Jr Shabadoo Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, been here before said: Be as well lobbing in John Peel too if we're talking BBC DJ noncers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Placid Casual Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 (edited) Thought this was a good article on the investigation. https://open.substack.com/pub/juliaraeside/p/the-assassination-of-russell-brand Edited September 20, 2023 by Placid Casual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirt of 98 Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 Just listened to Andrew Tate talking about Brand. He points out that Brand made a speech highlighting the money made by Pharmaceutical companies during the pandemic, highlighted that if we have a situation where Pharma, power and manufacturers of weapons be if it from medical emergencies, power crisis and war we will live in permanent crisis. Tate states that the matrix are attacking Brand for this statement. This is the reason this broke in the press prior to being reported to the Police. I am not into conspiracy theory’s however I believe in a group or people who run the world ie Illuminate or matrix or what ever name you wish to give it. My questions are why is this coming out now and not during the me to movement? who’s next? 1k per second was made by pharma companies during the pandemic. How much are power companies making of the energy crisis? How much are weapons companies making it the war in Ukraine? Not only from Russia and Ukraine but every other country arming up for WW3? Scary times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i wish jj was my dad Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 Interesting topic for discussion👆. But completely irrelevant to this topic as far as I am concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey J J Jr Shabadoo Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 24 minutes ago, spirt of 98 said: Just listened to Andrew Tate talking about Brand. He points out that Brand made a speech highlighting the money made by Pharmaceutical companies during the pandemic, highlighted that if we have a situation where Pharma, power and manufacturers of weapons be if it from medical emergencies, power crisis and war we will live in permanent crisis. Tate states that the matrix are attacking Brand for this statement. This is the reason this broke in the press prior to being reported to the Police. I am not into conspiracy theory’s however I believe in a group or people who run the world ie Illuminate or matrix or what ever name you wish to give it. My questions are why is this coming out now and not during the me to movement? who’s next? 1k per second was made by pharma companies during the pandemic. How much are power companies making of the energy crisis? How much are weapons companies making it the war in Ukraine? Not only from Russia and Ukraine but every other country arming up for WW3? Scary times. He was raping long before any of this bs. IMO, incels desperate to defend a nonce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 25 minutes ago, spirt of 98 said: Just listened to Andrew Tate talking about Brand. He points out that Brand made a speech highlighting the money made by Pharmaceutical companies during the pandemic, highlighted that if we have a situation where Pharma, power and manufacturers of weapons be if it from medical emergencies, power crisis and war we will live in permanent crisis. Tate states that the matrix are attacking Brand for this statement. This is the reason this broke in the press prior to being reported to the Police. I am not into conspiracy theory’s however I believe in a group or people who run the world ie Illuminate or matrix or what ever name you wish to give it. My questions are why is this coming out now and not during the me to movement? who’s next? 1k per second was made by pharma companies during the pandemic. How much are power companies making of the energy crisis? How much are weapons companies making it the war in Ukraine? Not only from Russia and Ukraine but every other country arming up for WW3? Scary times. Sorry. Got as far as this and stopped reading. You do know what he is accused of? With what appears to be far more incriminating evidence than RB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il Duce McTarkin Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 hour ago, spirt of 98 said: I am not into conspiracy theory’s however I believe in a group or people who run the world ie Illuminate or matrix or what ever name you wish to give it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generic Username Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 "I am not into conspiracy theories but believe the Illuminati are running the world" is possibly the greatest sentence ever typed out on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirt of 98 Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, Generic Username said: "I am not into conspiracy theories but believe the Illuminati are running the world" is possibly the greatest sentence ever typed out on this forum. What a drama Queen. Really I’ve seen some belters on here. Do you not believe that there is something going on in the background. This is what people do attack people with alternative views. Hardly a healthy debate. Why are you on Brands case because the media told you too. May be you should get your own thoughts. Anyone who disagrees with or highlights the matrix is witch hunted.The biggest advocate of this is Donald Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Gin Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 hour ago, spirt of 98 said: Just listened to Andrew Tate talking about Brand. He points out that Brand made a speech highlighting the money made by Pharmaceutical companies during the pandemic, highlighted that if we have a situation where Pharma, power and manufacturers of weapons be if it from medical emergencies, power crisis and war we will live in permanent crisis. Tate states that the matrix are attacking Brand for this statement. This is the reason this broke in the press prior to being reported to the Police. I am not into conspiracy theory’s however I believe in a group or people who run the world ie Illuminate or matrix or what ever name you wish to give it. My questions are why is this coming out now and not during the me to movement? who’s next? 1k per second was made by pharma companies during the pandemic. How much are power companies making of the energy crisis? How much are weapons companies making it the war in Ukraine? Not only from Russia and Ukraine but every other country arming up for WW3? Scary times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Gin Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 13 minutes ago, spirt of 98 said: What a drama Queen. Really I’ve seen some belters on here. Do you not believe that there is something going on in the background. This is what people do attack people with alternative views. Hardly a healthy debate. Why are you on Brands case because the media told you too. May be you should get your own thoughts. Anyone who disagrees with or highlights the matrix is witch hunted.The biggest advocate of this is Donald Trump. Why are you believing Tate? Maybe you should get your own thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirt of 98 Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Ray Gin said: Good point well made. listen I know Brand is a grade one walloper but why does the kickback Kangaroo court always assume guilt in these instances. Think this is a big issue that people believe the media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Gin Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 Just now, spirt of 98 said: Good point well made. listen I know Brand is a grade one walloper but why does the kickback Kangaroo court always assume guilt in these instances. Think this is a big issue that people believe the media. It's not just a single person spouting crap off the top of their head without any corroborative evidence though, which is what you seem keen to believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartgarfunkel Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 hour ago, spirt of 98 said: Just listened to Andrew Tate talking about Brand. He points out that Brand made a speech highlighting the money made by Pharmaceutical companies during the pandemic, highlighted that if we have a situation where Pharma, power and manufacturers of weapons be if it from medical emergencies, power crisis and war we will live in permanent crisis. Tate states that the matrix are attacking Brand for this statement. This is the reason this broke in the press prior to being reported to the Police. I am not into conspiracy theory’s however I believe in a group or people who run the world ie Illuminate or matrix or what ever name you wish to give it. My questions are why is this coming out now and not during the me to movement? who’s next? 1k per second was made by pharma companies during the pandemic. How much are power companies making of the energy crisis? How much are weapons companies making it the war in Ukraine? Not only from Russia and Ukraine but every other country arming up for WW3? Scary times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirt of 98 Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ray Gin said: Why are you believing Tate? Maybe you should get your own thoughts. I am not believing Tate, however it was Tates video that alerted me to Brands attack on the establishment. Tate highlights that this could be the establishment biting back. I am not saying that this is true just an interesting theory that if it was true would not shock me. I do believe there is wide spread corruption at Government level all across the world. We like to believe that corruption only exists because n places like Russia. I cannot tell you if Brand is guilty like some of you on here who apparently can. I can tell you he is creepy as Ive seen him on TV. Does that make him a rapist?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirt of 98 Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ray Gin said: It's not just a single person spouting crap off the top of their head without any corroborative evidence though, which is what you seem keen to believe. Oh and please tell me how all these people have come together at once? Do you think the media has been chapping doors? What do you think some of your exes would say if the media chapped your former partners doors. I’ll bet some of you will have spiteful former partners keen to put the boot in just for shits and giggles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Gin Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 minute ago, spirt of 98 said: I am not believing Tate, however it was Tates video that alerted me to Brands attack on the establishment. Tate highlights that this could be the establishment biting back. I am not saying that this is true just an interesting theory that if it was true would not shock me. I do believe there is wide spread corruption at Government level all across the world. We like to believe that corruption only exists because n places like Russia. I cannot tell you if Brand is guilty like some of you on here who apparently can. I can tell you he is creepy as Ive seen him on TV. Does that make him a rapist?? Raping someone makes him a rapist. I can't say with 100% certainty that he is, but I believe the woman over him given the weight other other allegations and other predatory behaviour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Gin Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 minute ago, spirt of 98 said: Oh and please tell me how all these people have come together at once? Do you think the media has been chapping doors? What do you think some of your exes would say if the media chapped your former partners doors. I’ll bet some of you will have spiteful former partners keen to put the boot in just for shits and giggles. The times and dispatches have been investigating this for 4 years. Starting not long after Katherine Ryan repeatedly called him a sex offender in his last major mainstream TV appearance, the #metoo movement started and Brand suddenly flipped to spouting conspiracy theories and telling people not to believe the media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cazzyy Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 19 minutes ago, spirt of 98 said: Oh and please tell me how all these people have come together at once? Do you think the media has been chapping doors? What do you think some of your exes would say if the media chapped your former partners doors. I’ll bet some of you will have spiteful former partners keen to put the boot in just for shits and giggles. "These people" haven't just come together, it's been investigated for the last 4 years. Yes the media have been chapping doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il Duce McTarkin Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 42 minutes ago, spirt of 98 said: Anyone who disagrees with or highlights the matrix is witch hunted. The Martix was a series of fictional movies, bud. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 hours ago, spirt of 98 said: Just listened to Andrew Tate talking about Brand. He points out that Brand made a speech highlighting the money made by Pharmaceutical companies during the pandemic, highlighted that if we have a situation where Pharma, power and manufacturers of weapons be if it from medical emergencies, power crisis and war we will live in permanent crisis. Tate states that the matrix are attacking Brand for this statement. This is the reason this broke in the press prior to being reported to the Police. I am not into conspiracy theory’s however I believe in a group or people who run the world ie Illuminate or matrix or what ever name you wish to give it. My questions are why is this coming out now and not during the me to movement? who’s next? 1k per second was made by pharma companies during the pandemic. How much are power companies making of the energy crisis? How much are weapons companies making it the war in Ukraine? Not only from Russia and Ukraine but every other country arming up for WW3? Scary times. You're not wrong M8 The sheer power of the 'matrix' or big pharma is incredible. In fact such is the power of the matrix that it had the foresight to manipulate countless young women to be (allegedly) sexually assaulted or raped by Brand over the last 20 years because they knew that eventually some 20 years later he'd abandon his acting and comedy career to turn into a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracist loon-ball on an as yet undeveloped social media platform. Clever b'stards. Mind you, it might just be that Andrew Tate is a roid addled slavering nonce? here's a top tip for anyone that watches or listens to the likes of Tate or Brand. turn off the phone, go out, talk to some real humans and probably most importantly get a ride, consensual of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said: The Martix was a series of fictional movies, bud. 👍 I hope you've got proof to back that kind of crazy talk up 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il Duce McTarkin Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 16 minutes ago, Ray Gin said: The times and dispatches have been investigating this for 4 years. Starting not long after Katherine Ryan repeatedly called him a sex offender in his last major mainstream TV appearance, the #metoo movement started and Brand suddenly flipped to spouting conspiracy theories and telling people not to believe the media. The comments on pretty much every Beasty Brand related post on facebook appear populated by weirdo conspiracy theorists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffros Furios Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 hour ago, spirt of 98 said: What a drama Queen. Really I’ve seen some belters on here. Do you not believe that there is something going on in the background. This is what people do attack people with alternative views. Hardly a healthy debate. Why are you on Brands case because the media told you too. May be you should get your own thoughts. Anyone who disagrees with or highlights the matrix is witch hunted.The biggest advocate of this is Donald Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter McGavin Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 hours ago, spirt of 98 said: Just listened to Andrew Tate talking about Brand. He points out that Brand made a speech highlighting the money made by Pharmaceutical companies during the pandemic, highlighted that if we have a situation where Pharma, power and manufacturers of weapons be if it from medical emergencies, power crisis and war we will live in permanent crisis. Tate states that the matrix are attacking Brand for this statement. This is the reason this broke in the press prior to being reported to the Police. I am not into conspiracy theory’s however I believe in a group or people who run the world ie Illuminate or matrix or what ever name you wish to give it. My questions are why is this coming out now and not during the me to movement? who’s next? 1k per second was made by pharma companies during the pandemic. How much are power companies making of the energy crisis? How much are weapons companies making it the war in Ukraine? Not only from Russia and Ukraine but every other country arming up for WW3? Scary times. Or maybe a guy that bragged about being a sexual predator his whole career turns out to have actually been a sexual predator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Magic Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said: Or maybe a guy that bragged about being a sexual predator his whole career turns out to have actually been a sexual predator? Extraordinary outcome 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generic Username Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 hour ago, spirt of 98 said: What a drama Queen. Really I’ve seen some belters on here. Do you not believe that there is something going on in the background. This is what people do attack people with alternative views. Hardly a healthy debate. Why are you on Brands case because the media told you too. May be you should get your own thoughts. Anyone who disagrees with or highlights the matrix is witch hunted.The biggest advocate of this is Donald Trump. Getting big Hustler University vibes here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticJambo Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/21/three-quarters-of-survivors-say-police-response-damaged-their-mental-health Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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