Horizon IT - Post Office - Public Enquiry

[periodictabledancer]

19 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

I'm sure one of the actual S-PM's  on the "Real Story" documentary said that her discrepancies were always a deficit i.e. money owed to the PO account.  Don't know if everyone's was the same as that though.   

 

I can't remember if it was a poorly worded media article or an actual quote from a convicted S-PM .... but  the claim was that when a customer used  their debit card to withdraw money from their PO account, the system added the amount to their account.   Free money !!   Not sure if that was the cause of the apparent shortfalls in the daily recs which led to prosecutions or simply a different bug in the Horizon system.

 

It should  always be remembered that basic accounting just involves a debit to one account and a balancing credit to another.  For a non-accountant,  the trickier part is knowing which is which.  🤔

 

 

Lee Castleton sometimes had small, unaccountable gains. 

 

The punters withdrawing/gaining  money is a separate issue .

[WorldChampions1902]

15 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Didn't know that.   😲   Starting to sound as if Fujitsu are running a  get-rich-quick racket by playing the IT world's  professional victim when they see a Govt agency wanting their processes computerised. 

 

 

The extent of Fujitsu’s ‘presence’ in U.K. government IT systems is colossal. That in itself could prove the key factor to them continuing as a viable U.K. entity and continuing to win U.K. government contracts.
 

The alternative would see massive uncoupling of Fujitsu from all its U.K. government contracts which would take years and come with significant risk of causing widespread disruption to those government departments/agencies currently using Fujitsu’s services.

[Lone Striker]

6 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

The extent of Fujitsu’s ‘presence’ in U.K. government IT systems is colossal. That in itself could prove the key factor to them continuing as a viable U.K. entity and continuing to win U.K. government contracts.
 

The alternative would see massive uncoupling of Fujitsu from all its U.K. government contracts which would take years and come with significant risk of causing widespread disruption to those government departments/agencies currently using Fujitsu’s services.

I'd bet that many of them are "bespoke" in some aspect, so that IT maintenance & enhancement work can't really be undertaken confidently by any IT company other than Fujitsu.  In other words they've guaranteed lucrative maintenance contracts on top of the fortune they've fleeced us for in building the damn thing - while getting away with passing the buck on to PO management for the problems.   Sounds like they may have got away with creating a closed shop  around  their software installs.

 

If Horizon was started in the 1990's there's absolutely no point in trying to "fix it"  now.  Business software nowadays is light years away from what it was back then. Off the shelf package software with functionality  which is easily configurable, secured and understood by in-house IT folk  has been the  name of the game  for 20 years - sitting behind easily navigable user screens using standard web functionality & links.   You only have to use online banking from your living room to see examples of whats possible -  are Post Office process much different to what goes on in the software behind that ?  Travel agents too.  ?

 

 

[Spellczech]

Loving the Govt's attempt to sidestep that they actually have got Ministers responsible for the Post Office by pointing the finger at Fujitsu (A very American thing to try to do, to hammer a foreign-owned company - see BP, Airbus, various banks and insurers)

 

Fujitsu did not initiate legal cases against 1000 people all of whom were accused of independently attempting the exact same fraud, the Post Office's legal team did, and their internal auditors knew, and their Board knew...it beggars belief that not one senior person thought to raise their hand and say "Um, this is uncanny and absurd!"

 

 

[jamborich]

Ian Hislop love him or hate him thought he was brilliant on the peston show ripped the Tory mp a new one

[The Mighty Thor]

6 hours ago, Spellczech said:

 

Fujitsu did not initiate legal cases against 1000 people all of whom were accused of independently attempting the exact same fraud, the Post Office's legal team did, and their internal auditors knew, and their Board knew...it beggars belief that not one senior person thought to raise their hand and say "Um, this is uncanny and absurd!"

 

 

Perhaps they did only to be told by Fujitsu 'naw mate it's not us, our IT system.is bomb proof' 

[The Mighty Thor]

7 hours ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

The extent of Fujitsu’s ‘presence’ in U.K. government IT systems is colossal. That in itself could prove the key factor to them continuing as a viable U.K. entity and continuing to win U.K. government contracts.
 

The alternative would see massive uncoupling of Fujitsu from all its U.K. government contracts which would take years and come with significant risk of causing widespread disruption to those government departments/agencies currently using Fujitsu’s services.

Just how do Fujitsu continue to secure these contracts against a backdrop of failure?

I'd love to see who they make donations to or 'entertain'. I suspect that will answer a lot of questions.

 

For context they've 'won' contracts worth over £6 billion during Sunaks time as Chancellor & PM

[periodictabledancer]

37 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Just how do Fujitsu continue to secure these contracts against a backdrop of failure?

I'd love to see who they make donations to or 'entertain'. I suspect that will answer a lot of questions.

 

For context they've 'won' contracts worth over £6 billion during Sunaks time as Chancellor & PM

Gillian Keegan's hubby is/was the UK head of Fujitsu. 

[periodictabledancer]

Just a wee reminder the public enquiry resumes today and next to be grilled is Stephen Bradshaw.  He was an " investigator" ie he fabricated cases so people could be fitted up for false accounting. 

It could be quite a day - unless he's suffering from the rampant collective amnesia that grips former PO staff. 

Popcorn time, hopefully. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 hour ago, periodictabledancer said:

Gillian Keegan's hubby is/was the UK head of Fujitsu. 

 

Some *******s should swing for this.

Lives ruined. Innocent folk sent to the grave as criminals, yet ruling-class nepitism and profiteering continues unabated and in clear view. 

 

58 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

Just a wee reminder the public enquiry resumes today and next to be grilled is Stephen Bradshaw.  He was an " investigator" ie he fabricated cases so people could be fitted up for false accounting. 

 

 

Including this ^***, after a good public stoning.

 

 

Edited January 11 by il Duce McTarkin

[periodictabledancer]

29 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Some *******s should swing for this.

Lives ruined. Innocent folk sent to the grave as criminals, yet ruling-class nepitism and profiteering continues unabated and in clear view. 

 

 

Including this ^***, after a good public stoning.

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

30 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Lives ruined. Innocent folk sent to the grave as criminals, yet ruling-class nepitism and profiteering continues unabated and in clear view. 

 

Same as it ever was. 

 

Grenfell, Hillsborough, infected blood etc etc

 

The politicians 'responsible' move out of Westminster and into the boardrooms and round and round we go.

[Victorian]

1 hour ago, periodictabledancer said:

Gillian Keegan's hubby is/was the UK head of Fujitsu. 

 

2014 to 2018 as CEO and chair.  On the face of it it seems unlikely he is implicated.  

[Spellczech]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Perhaps they did only to be told by Fujitsu 'naw mate it's not us, our IT system.is bomb proof' 

Doesn't explain the 1000 people all supposedly trying to commit the same petty fraud. Lawyers are (meant to be) not stupid.

[periodictabledancer]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

2014 to 2018 as CEO and chair.  On the face of it it seems unlikely he is implicated.  

I think wewere talking about him in the contexr of Fujitsu's continued/continuing receipt of UK government largesse, not that he was part of any conspiracy (which I don't believe he was). 

[Victorian]

Are there any analogues in other countries regarding Fujitsu IT systems and similar accusations of impropriety / fraud?

[Victorian]

Just now, periodictabledancer said:

I think wewere talking about him in the contexr of Fujitsu's continued/continuing receipt of UK government largesse, not that he was part of any conspiracy (which I don't believe he was). 

 

 

Just typical of how things are.  In and around every questionable area of the economy and public services you seem to find a personal link to a minister.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

9 hours ago, jamborich said:

Ian Hislop love him or hate him thought he was brilliant on the peston show ripped the Tory mp a new one

 

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Some *******s should swing for this.

Lives ruined. Innocent folk sent to the grave as criminals, yet ruling-class nepitism and profiteering continues unabated and in clear view. 

 

 

Including this ^***, after a good public stoning.

 

 

 

Spot on. Handing back a CBE isn't even close to enough.

 

And even the lowliest bank clerk will be made aware of this law from day one on the job: A conviction for failing to disclose suspicion of criminal property or money laundering can incur a custodial sentence of up to five years and an unlimited fine.

 

How many people in the lower/mid/upper echelons of the companies involved wilfully ignored the pattern that was staring at them in the face? How many ignored the huge number of concerns raised? Obviously there is a difference between ignoring potential fraud and ignoring a wrongful accusation of fraud but personally i feel the same standards should apply once criminal proceedings begin.

 

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 hour ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Some *******s should swing for this.

Lives ruined. Innocent folk sent to the grave as criminals, yet ruling-class nepitism* and profiteering continues unabated and in clear view. 

 

 

*nepotism 

[il Duce McTarkin]

13 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

How many people in the lower/mid/upper echelons of the companies involved wilfully ignored the pattern that was staring at them in the face? How many ignored the huge number of concerns raised? Obviously there is a difference between ignoring potential fraud and ignoring a wrongful accusation of fraud but personally i feel the same standards should apply once criminal proceedings begin.

 

 

 

There should be a strong case for this, or a variation thereof.

[Victorian]

16 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Spot on. Handing back a CBE isn't even close to enough.

 

And even the lowliest bank clerk will be made aware of this law from day one on the job: A conviction for failing to disclose suspicion of criminal property or money laundering can incur a custodial sentence of up to five years and an unlimited fine.

 

How many people in the lower/mid/upper echelons of the companies involved wilfully ignored the pattern that was staring at them in the face? How many ignored the huge number of concerns raised? Obviously there is a difference between ignoring potential fraud and ignoring a wrongful accusation of fraud but personally i feel the same standards should apply once criminal proceedings begin.

 

 

 

It's potentially worse for the executives.  Malfeasance can be a life sentence.  

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

Just a wee reminder the public enquiry resumes today and next to be grilled is Stephen Bradshaw.  He was an " investigator" ie he fabricated cases so people could be fitted up for false accounting. 

It could be quite a day - unless he's suffering from the rampant collective amnesia that grips former PO staff. 

Popcorn time, hopefully. 

 

Been confirmed he can refuse to answer questions if it might incriminate him for criminal charges. 

[Mikey1874]

Bradshaw says he signed off on the investigations as all being correct in his witness statement because he was not told there were any issues with the Horizon system. 

[henrysmithsgloves]

Should have been sorted out decades ago🤬🤬 

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, henrysmithsgloves said:

Should have been sorted out decades ago🤬🤬 

 

At the pilot from 1995 to 99. 

[cannonfoda]

7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Bradshaw says he signed off on the investigations as all being correct in his witness statement because he was not told there were any issues with the Horizon system. 

The it wasn't me defence.   He's screwed.

[il Duce McTarkin]

15 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Bradshaw says he signed off on the investigations as all being correct in his witness statement because he was not told there were any issues with the Horizon system. 

 

 

A big IT system done it and ran away...

[Victorian]

Disowned his own witness statement.

 

Had some concerns but isn't technically minded enough.  Maybe an investigator should be proactive enough to go and find out more,  huh?

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

 

That was. 

[Victorian]

Surely he's admitted that his statements in prosecutions were not what they were perceived to be.  His evidence in statement form.  If they were someone else's statements he was told to adopt as his own then they are false statements

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

Bradshaw says he signed off on the investigations as all being correct in his witness statement because he was not told there were any issues with the Horizon system. 

The **** is still employed by the Post Office.

 

Claims management 'reassured him' that they system was bob on. Ok son who told you that and when? Name them and lets get them on the stand. 

 

Didn't even write his own witness statement 😂

 

Pokey time for shitehawks like this. 

[Harry Potter]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

Bradshaw says he signed off on the investigations as all being correct in his witness statement because he was not told there were any issues with the Horizon system. 

No issues, .  could not make it up.

[Percival King]

It'll be very interesting to see which organisations and individuals are held responsible for what's happened, for the cover-up and for the shocking delay to finally exonerating the not guilty. We're really good in this country for saying "lessons will be learnt" without really holding to account those responsible. Surely that won't wash this time.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

12 hours ago, Spellczech said:

Fujitsu did not initiate legal cases against 1000 people all of whom were accused of independently attempting the exact same fraud, the Post Office's legal team did, and their internal auditors knew, and their Board knew...it beggars belief that not one senior person thought to raise their hand and say "Um, this is uncanny and absurd!"

 

 

 

Exactly.

You go from something like 5 prosecutions a year pre Horizon to 50, 60 70+ prosecutions a year after a new IT system comes in and nobody says hold on a minute, how have we went from X to......................   I would be shocked that nobody did, but they'll have been ignored and silenced.

 

The Post Office has to lose it's ability to prosecute, it has clearly abused that privilage, it's lied and been dishonest on an industrial scale.

[il Duce McTarkin]

2 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

That was. 

 

Would've been improved by Hislop hopping across the desktops and volleying the ^*** under the chin.

[Lone Striker]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

Disowned his own witness statement.

 

Had some concerns but isn't technically minded enough.  Maybe an investigator should be proactive enough to go and find out more,  huh?

The "not technically minded" defence is totally irrelevant to what a proper investigator should be doing.  Its likely that none of the SPM's would be "technically minded" either - doesn't stop them doing their job.  Bradshaw  sounded like your typical debt collector type.

 

Did any of the KC's ask him to describe what other non-Horizon stuff he investigated during his time at the PO ?  And did he enter into those investigations with an open mind ? He certainly didn't when dealing with the Horizon SPM's.

 

The PO's lawyers don't come out of his well either.   

 

"Dear PO  employee, Please sign this witness statement which we've prepared on your behalf.  It indicates that you knew nothing about any IT bugs which may have existed but definitely didn't.  Thanks."  

[The Real Maroonblood]

34 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Would've been improved by Hislop hopping across the desktops and volleying the ^*** under the chin.

👍

[Victorian]

14 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

The "not technically minded" defence is totally irrelevant to what a proper investigator should be doing.  Its likely that none of the SPM's would be "technically minded" either - doesn't stop them doing their job.  Bradshaw  sounded like your typical debt collector type.

 

Did any of the KC's ask him to describe what other non-Horizon stuff he investigated during his time at the PO ?  And did he enter into those investigations with an open mind ? He certainly didn't when dealing with the Horizon SPM's.

 

The PO's lawyers don't come out of his well either.   

 

"Dear PO  employee, Please sign this witness statement which we've prepared on your behalf.  It indicates that you knew nothing about any IT bugs which may have existed but definitely didn't.  Thanks."  

 

Absolutely.  He was quite obviously a stooge on behalf of and within what was a pre-conceived agenda.  Not an investigator.  More the Spanish Inquisition.  A wholesale campaign of railroading innocent and vulnerable people through the courts and into a criminal record,  as well as defrauding them and ruining their financial futures.   It can only be remedied by the guilty and corrupt being imprisoned.  No other end state can be satisfactory.

[Victorian]

He's actually trying to justify this shit.  He says he was in a branch to investigate a cash deposit shortfall.  But that exluded IT bugs as a potential cause.  Because IT is separate.  

 

Some investigation that.  

 

[Footballfirst]

3 minutes ago, Victorian said:

He's actually trying to justify this shit.  He says he was in a branch to investigate a cash deposit shortfall.  But that exluded IT bugs as a potential cause.  Because IT is separate.  

 

Some investigation that.  

 

His evidence has me trying to think of an analogy.

 

Had he been a policeman asked to investigate a complaint of assault being inflicted by a shopkeeper on a customer.  His interview with the shopkeeper finds that he admits to hitting the customer, but claims that the customer was trying to rob the shop.

 

The policeman accepts his admission of assault, but refuses to investigate the claim about any attempted robbery.

 

Shopkeeper prosecuted for assault.

 

 

[Footballfirst]

I'm surprised that the KC didn't pick up the reference in a 2006 case to calls to the Horizon Help Desk.  Bradshaw has claimed several times that he was unaware of the existence of multiple help desks until some point between 2010 and 2012. 

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

 

Absolutely.  He was quite obviously a stooge on behalf of and within what was a pre-conceived agenda.  Not an investigator.  More the Spanish Inquisition.  A wholesale campaign of railroading innocent and vulnerable people through the courts and into a criminal record,  as well as defrauding them and ruining their financial futures.   It can only be remedied by the guilty and corrupt being imprisoned.  No other end state can be satisfactory.

Totally agree.... plus the removal of the PO's power to prosecute without referral to the police.

15 minutes ago, Victorian said:

He's actually trying to justify this shit.  He says he was in a branch to investigate a cash deposit shortfall.  But that exluded IT bugs as a potential cause.  Because IT is separate.  

 

Some investigation that.  

 

Yep.  We can only hope the judge  describes this  guy's evidence in his final report as symptomatic of a toxic and unprofessional  culture  within PO management.     

4 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

His evidence has me trying to think of an analogy.

 

Had he been a policeman asked to investigate a complaint of assault being inflicted by a shopkeeper on a customer.  His interview with the shopkeeper finds that he admits to hitting the customer, but claims that the customer was trying to rob the shop.

 

The policeman accepts his admission of assault, but refuses to investigate the claim about any attempted robbery.

 

Shopkeeper prosecuted for assault.

 

 

Yep.  Just take the easiest/quickest route to "resolving" a case,  regardless of evidence to the contrary or difficulty of proof.

 

 

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

I think we just adopt Aussieh's plan and ship the lot of these corrupt ****s up to Blair Drummond for a one way trip. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I think we just adopt Aussieh's plan and ship the lot of these corrupt ****s up to Blair Drummond for a one way trip. 

 

[Boab]

PM backing calls to knight the Bates felly.

Snivelling little shit.

If I was Bates I’d tell them to ram their gong up their hoop !

[Lone Striker]

17 minutes ago, Boab said:

PM backing calls to knight the Bates felly.

Snivelling little shit.

If I was Bates I’d tell them to ram their gong up their hoop !

Typical politician - if there's a popular bandwagon in sight, jump on it.  Pretty sure Alan Bates would decline such an offer in the strongest terms.     He comes across as a man of old-fashioned  honesty and integrity   -  attributes that very few politicians seem to have.

 

[periodictabledancer]

Chair of the enquiry makes his opinion on Bradshaw pretty clear as he closes down the day with a simple "thank you very much" to everyone but no one in particular.

 

Bradshaw is an aggressive and abrasive guy , quick to blame the lawyers, the business, other investigators. He literally did what was expected of him and never questioned anything he did or encountered - until he gets shown an intervention he made at court that resulted in an innocent woman being jailed for 17 months.

[stevie]

The blame for this entire fiasco lies fairly and squarely with all politicians from all parties since this started.The scrambling to sort it out 20 years too late is ****ing disgraceful and just about sums up our political elite for the last 2 decades.Self serving sanctimonious sponging b’stards.

I’d love heads to roll for this but they’ll circle the wagons to make sure no blood is spilt.

[Footballfirst]

46 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

Chair of the enquiry makes his opinion on Bradshaw pretty clear as he closes down the day with a simple "thank you very much" to everyone but no one in particular.

 

Bradshaw is an aggressive and abrasive guy , quick to blame the lawyers, the business, other investigators. He literally did what was expected of him and never questioned anything he did or encountered - until he gets shown an intervention he made at court that resulted in an innocent woman being jailed for 17 months.

Confirmation of what he did.