Horizon IT - Post Office - Public Enquiry

[Tommy Brown]

2 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

👍 Absolutely.      Documentary on the scandal is tonight on STV at   11.10 pm

Cheers hadn't realised there was a doc aldo.

Downloaded the book yonks ago, never even started it.

Going to spend less time here and read the bloody thing.

[Ked]

Are people believing Ed Davey ?

[Lone Striker]

11 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said:

Cheers hadn't realised there was a doc aldo.

Downloaded the book yonks ago, never even started it.

Going to spend less time here and read the bloody thing.

😃  tbf, @Footballfirst  and @periodictabledancer   have done a fine job on here of interpreting the Public Inquiry activities and observations.

 

This website is well worth following  too-

https://www.postofficescandal.uk/

Its the active follow-up to the now-archived  https://www.postofficetrial.com/     mentioned by @periodictabledancer above

 

-

 

 

[periodictabledancer]

5 hours ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

As it so often does, when the time allocated to it in IT projects is cut-back alarmingly, due to delays and problems with earlier stages of the project. Add to this the common situation where this work is sub-contracted offshore - to "save" money, of course, in spite of the many risks associated with doing this - often making verification that it has been carried out properly and in accordance with the testing plan and documentation much more difficult than it would be had it been carried out "in house".

 

Testing should be an absolutely key part of any project and should be given equal priority and importance as analysis, coding, and implementation, but all too often is treated as the poor relation. 

I agree with all of this - but the most bizarre aspect of FJs involvement (for me) is that they originally set out with the crazy idea this would be a PFI project. They genuinely believed/expected that PO would allow them to roll out an IT system (which, don't forget, was originally going to be used by DWP to payout billions in state  benefits) without allowing PO ANY say in its design/testing or any information as to its operability : it was all to be "black box" technology. Absolute insanity. 

In fact PO gave the contract to FJ even though it was nowhere near the best of the invitations to tender responses !

 

In terms of how bad was Horizon and when did it become apparent it really was a  bag of shit : it's not clear to me at all. 

As much as I dislike FJ (I've worked with them , I know some of their  people & I've worked with some of the people named in the enquiry ) I don't believe they knowingly started out with a system that wasn't fit for purpose (bearing in mind the goalposts were continually being moved on the acceptance criteria). But as the rollout progressed and as functionality was added they must've reached a tipping point - and then covered it up. What is mind boggling is that PO had no one (apprently) in the service management space who was capable or qualfied in identifying any kind of trend that was putting their business at risk , they let FJ run rings around them because they didn't actively monitor what was going on. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 4 by periodictabledancer

[Doctor FinnBarr]

2 hours ago, Tommy Brown said:

Episode 3 last night had her delivering a sermon in the pulpit.

Turned to Mrs B, saying that it was like badly written drama that would never happen in real life.

 

Really want see a good few in the Dock for this.

 

She's an absolute hypocrite, preaching all sorts from the pulpit whilst lying through her teeth in a "professional" role. One of many that need jailed. 

[Footballfirst]

More on Ed Davey. Might be an innocent explanation, but the more you dig into the scandal, more coincidences appear to crop up.

 

Edited January 4 by Footballfirst

[Auld Reekin']

58 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

I agree with all of this - but the most bizarre aspect of FJs involvement (for me) is that they originally set out with the crazy idea this would be a PFI project. They genuinely believed/expected that PO would allow them to roll out an IT system (which, don't forget, was originally going to be used by DWP to payout billions in state  benefits) without allowing PO ANY say in its design/testing or any information as to its operability : it was all to be "black box" technology. Absolute insanity. 

In fact PO gave the contract to FJ even though it was nowhere near the best of the invitations to tender responses !

 

In terms of how bad was Horizon and when did it become apparent it really was a  bag of shit : it's not clear to me at all. 

As much as I dislike FJ (I've worked with them , I know some of their  people & I've worked with some of the people named in the enquiry ) I don't believe they knowingly started out with a system that wasn't fit for purpose (bearing in mind the goalposts were continually being moved on the acceptance criteria). But as the rollout progressed and as functionality was added they must've reached a tipping point - and then covered it up. What is mind boggling is that PO had no one (apprently) in the service management space who was capable or qualfied in identifying any kind of trend that was putting their business at risk , they let FJ run rings around them because they didn't actively monitor what was going on. 

 

 

 

 

 

  Mind-boggling, but also depressingly familiar.    

[Lone Striker]

2 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

What is mind boggling is that PO had no one (apprently) in the service management space who was capable or qualfied in identifying any kind of trend that was putting their business at risk , they let FJ run rings around them because they didn't actively monitor what was going on. 

 

 

 

 

Agree 100%.    Large (and even medium-sized)  IT projects that I was involved in always had a "steering group", made up of senior   IT folk and senior user management. They monitored progress on a living document  (the Issues Log) which contained all issues/errors  raised during initial user testing  and then again during end-to-end user system testing.  Nothing went live until all major/significant issues on the issues Log  had been corrected , tested &  signed off - and an implementation plan & timetable agreed.   Even after go-live,  IT support performed a baby-sitting role for at least 3 accounting cycle periods, before passing responsibility for support  over to the normal Help Desk process.

 

Its not rocket science,  just common-sense practice which you'd expect any big IT company and user organisation to adopt.    

[periodictabledancer]

 

 

 

Scoop: Public inquiry into the Post Office scandal has obtained covert recordings of senior staff including Paula Vennells. Approx 80 tapes could be “damning”, an inquiry source tells me.

 

Well, well, well.

Let's hope these recordings relate to the meeting their lawyers told them to keep no written records of.

 

 

[Footballfirst]

2 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

Scoop: Public inquiry into the Post Office scandal has obtained covert recordings of senior staff including Paula Vennells. Approx 80 tapes could be “damning”, an inquiry source tells me.

 

Well, well, well.

Let's hope these recordings relate to the meeting their lawyers told them to keep no written records of.

 

I've just read that on the Times website. It has the drip, drip feeling of "Partygate", but on a much more serious and criminal level.

 

I'll be interested to hear what the inquiry chair has to say about the latest revelations when the hearings resume.

[periodictabledancer]

24 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I've just read that on the Times website. It has the drip, drip feeling of "Partygate", but on a much more serious and criminal level.

 

I'll be interested to hear what the inquiry chair has to say about the latest revelations when the hearings resume.

Tom Witherow is claiming the recordings are "covert" which is quite  a claim - given the circumstances and their possible import.

Looking forward to hearing how their existence was uncovered because the parties involved would have known of their historical existence but don't appear to have said anything (I'm thinking here of the legal eagles advice to PO not to have written records/emails of anything sensitive). 

It could be explosive but time will tell.  

[Lone Striker]

2 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

 

 

 

Scoop: Public inquiry into the Post Office scandal has obtained covert recordings of senior staff including Paula Vennells. Approx 80 tapes could be “damning”, an inquiry source tells me.

 

Well, well, well.

Let's hope these recordings relate to the meeting their lawyers told them to keep no written records of.

 

 

A whistleblower in the PO perhaps ? Good stuff.

 

Interesting documentary tonight.  ALan Bates is one determined and focused guy.    Paula Vennells at the Commons Select Committee was astonishingly defensive - almost playing the victim card - for claiming to be "unable to answer" some of their questions.   

 

Seeing the text on the screen at the end about the PO and Fujitsu issuing their "apology" and declaring  " full support for the sub-postmasters"  gave the impression that  both organisations have embarked on a reverse hierarchy of blame .

 

Basically - "I'm really sorry, but the guy below me didn't tell me the full facts.   So its not my fault,"   And repeat  down the levels

 

 

 

 

 

[periodictabledancer]

2 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

A whistleblower in the PO perhaps ? Good stuff.

 

Interesting documentary tonight.  ALan Bates is one determined and focused guy.    Paula Vennells at the Commons Select Committee was astonishingly defensive - almost playing the victim card - for claiming to be "unable to answer" some of their questions.   

 

Seeing the text on the screen at the end about the PO and Fujitsu issuing their "apology" and declaring  " full support for the sub-postmasters"  gave the impression that  both organisations have embarked on a reverse hierarchy of blame .

 

Basically - "I'm really sorry, but the guy below me didn't tell me the full facts.   So its not my fault,"   And repeat  down the levels

 

 

 

 

 

We don't know if it's whistleblower stuff (let's hope it is !). I'll give you an example : my company  recorded ALL monthly project meetings and project board meetings - BUT this was done openly, they were routinely available AND they were not a substitute for written minutes.

 

Now, if these recordings  (I'm assuming voice recordings, but it's not been made clear) arose out of the PO lawyers advice not to have written records or minutes or email covering sensitive Horizon stuff..... 

🎆

 

 

[SectionDJambo]

One thing I don’t understand, after watching the final episode last night.

When the guy who decided to represent himself lost his case, he ended up getting hit for the Post Office legal costs as well. He ended up having to find over £300,000. 
How come the Post Office weren’t made to pay the legal costs of the 500, when they lost the big case in court?

[Pans Jambo]

Fantastic thread.

 

Horrible situation for the sub post masters.

 

Just watched the first 3 episodes of the TV version last night with the fourth tonight. Read this thread in one go and the TV show really doesn't scratch the surface but I suppose it would be 50 episodes if it did.

 

This is the sort of things that our media and government should be focussing on. Justice for ordinary people and promoting a sense of fairness and confidence in our court systems. Instead, we get focus on wee boats in the channel.

Edited January 5 by Pans Jambo

[periodictabledancer]

7 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

One thing I don’t understand, after watching the final episode last night.

When the guy who decided to represent himself lost his case, he ended up getting hit for the Post Office legal costs as well. He ended up having to find over £300,000. 
How come the Post Office weren’t made to pay the legal costs of the 500, when they lost the big case in court?

I've tweeted Lee Castleton to clarify.

Worth noting , in all the hype about the various compensation schemes (which are moving at a glacial pace) : vicitms who were bankrupted haven't had those costs reimbursed and to add insult to injury , one victim was offered £5K for reputational damage.

These people continue to suffer even through the compensation schemes. 

[Mikey1874]

Positive 

 

 

[Footballfirst]

Lee Castleton/Alan Bates asking people to contact their MPs

 

 

[Tommy Brown]

[periodictabledancer]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

Lee Castleton/Alan Bates asking people to contact their MPs

 

 

Over fifty more have come forward . There are thought to be THOUSANDS  more who were never prosecuted or punished but who (only) had to pay back monies they never took. Ive seen specific stories on social media. These victims are still too traumatised to come forward. 

[Tommy Brown]

GTF ya shameless boot

 

[kila]

I don't mind her when she's gunning for her ex cronies

 

[Nelly Terraces]

I’ve not watched the dramatisation, but I’ve followed this story for a long time & heard the victims stories & I have to say it’s brought tears to my eyes every time. A completely heartbreaking & disgusting miscarriage of justice. I’d like to hope that one day we’d see those responsible across all levels go to jail themselves. 

[Footballfirst]

From the Guardian (and not before time).

 

The Post Office is under criminal investigation over “potential fraud offences” committed during the Horizon scandal, the Metropolitan police have confirmed for the first time.

Officers are “investigating potential fraud offences arising out of these prosecutions”, for example “monies recovered from sub-postmasters [operators] as a result of prosecutions or civil actions”, Scotland Yard said on Friday evening.

It is not clear whether the investigation relates to individual staff members or the Post Office as a corporate entity.

Between 1999 and 2015, more than 700 post office branch managers were wrongly handed criminal convictions after faulty Horizon accounting software made it appear as though money was missing from their outlets.

Under the terms of their contracts, operators were liable for the financial losses and the Post Office demanded they repay the money or face closure, prosecution or a civil claim.

Hundreds were jailed or left bankrupted and at least four people took their own lives.

It is not known how much cash was paid back for imaginary shortfalls but so far £151m has been paid in compensation. Operators claimed that tens of millions of pounds wrongly clawed back went into Post Office profits.

The Met is already investigating two former Fujitsu experts, who were witnesses in the trials, for perjury and perverting the course of justice. Fujitsu is the company behind the Horizon software.

The force said in the statement: “These potential offences arise out of investigations and prosecutions carried out by the Post Office.

“The investigation was launched in January 2020 following a referral from the DPP.

“Two people have been interviewed under caution. Nobody has been arrested.”

Earlier this week, ITV began broadcasting Mr Bates vs the Post Office, a four-part drama charting the scandal and the fight for justice by wrongly prosecuted branch owner-operators.

Since the start of the broadcasting, 50 new potential victims have contacted lawyers, including five who wish to appeal against their convictions.

The Criminal Cases Review Commission, which refers cases to the court of appeal, has since urged more potential victims to come forward. In a statement issued on Friday, it said it “might be able to help if your appeal was unsuccessful, or if you pleaded guilty in a magistrates court, or if you are a close relative of a former sub-postmaster who has died”.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

I'm all for the subpostmasters receiving compensation but considering Post Office PLC is owned by us, we, the tax payer are paying the comp. Why should I be paying for the failings of the Post Office and Horizon? Time to start jailing the twats!

[ri Alban]

3 hours ago, Doctor FinnBarr said:

I'm all for the subpostmasters receiving compensation but considering Post Office PLC is owned by us, we, the tax payer are paying the comp. Why should I be paying for the failings of the Post Office and Horizon? Time to start jailing the twats!

They stole their life savings and entire lives. Pay them back their lives. 

 

Why that fecking witch Vennals isn't in Prison, is a mystery.  Protection of others?

[periodictabledancer]

4 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

From the Guardian (and not before time).

 

The Post Office is under criminal investigation over “potential fraud offences” committed during the Horizon scandal, the Metropolitan police have confirmed for the first time.

Officers are “investigating potential fraud offences arising out of these prosecutions”, for example “monies recovered from sub-postmasters [operators] as a result of prosecutions or civil actions”, Scotland Yard said on Friday evening.

It is not clear whether the investigation relates to individual staff members or the Post Office as a corporate entity.

Between 1999 and 2015, more than 700 post office branch managers were wrongly handed criminal convictions after faulty Horizon accounting software made it appear as though money was missing from their outlets.

Under the terms of their contracts, operators were liable for the financial losses and the Post Office demanded they repay the money or face closure, prosecution or a civil claim.

Hundreds were jailed or left bankrupted and at least four people took their own lives.

It is not known how much cash was paid back for imaginary shortfalls but so far £151m has been paid in compensation. Operators claimed that tens of millions of pounds wrongly clawed back went into Post Office profits.

The Met is already investigating two former Fujitsu experts, who were witnesses in the trials, for perjury and perverting the course of justice. Fujitsu is the company behind the Horizon software.

The force said in the statement: “These potential offences arise out of investigations and prosecutions carried out by the Post Office.

“The investigation was launched in January 2020 following a referral from the DPP.

“Two people have been interviewed under caution. Nobody has been arrested.”

Earlier this week, ITV began broadcasting Mr Bates vs the Post Office, a four-part drama charting the scandal and the fight for justice by wrongly prosecuted branch owner-operators.

Since the start of the broadcasting, 50 new potential victims have contacted lawyers, including five who wish to appeal against their convictions.

The Criminal Cases Review Commission, which refers cases to the court of appeal, has since urged more potential victims to come forward. In a statement issued on Friday, it said it “might be able to help if your appeal was unsuccessful, or if you pleaded guilty in a magistrates court, or if you are a close relative of a former sub-postmaster who has died”.

“Two people have been interviewed under caution. Nobody has been arrested.”

 

They are known (thought ?) to be Gareth Jenkins (whose appearance  at the public enquiry has been delayed several times becuase     i.he wanted assurances that his testimony wouldn't be used to convict him (ie self incrimination) and ii. because PO has repeatedly failed to disclose relevant documents (IIRC on at least two occasions Jenkins has had to be cancelled because various troves of documents have suddenly appeared  which impact him) 

 

 

and a lady called Anne Chambers (I think she's appeared on two seperate occasions at the enquiry on 2022/23). 

 

Below is a link to one of her appearances. If anyone's interested in seeing how an IT support staffer is coopted into the English legal system without the neccessary training (and as a result failing to meet her legal obligations , failed to tell the High Court that the investigations she carried out in 2006 were significantly different from what she  originally did in 2004 (but kept no records of such) - which resulted in Lee Castleton's lawyers being kept in the dark and denied any opportunity to test the evidence put forward ) then this will be interesting viewing.

Lest we forget, this guy was bankrupted to the tune of £350K and lost everything. On the back of "evidence" that probably wasn't admissable : the Post Office lawyers absolutely failed to do their jobs properly. 

 

 

Start at  39.20 ...

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6 by periodictabledancer

[Tommy Brown]

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

They stole their life savings and entire lives. Pay them back their lives. 

 

Why that fecking witch Vennals isn't in Prison, is a mystery.  Protection of others?

As one of the sub-postmasters (who was jailed) said. 

Hit them in their pockets. Ruin them.

Get their bonus payments, etc on a proceeds of crime basis.

 

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Tommy Brown said:

As one of the sub-postmasters (who was jailed) said. 

Hit them in their pockets. Ruin them.

Get their bonus payments, etc on a proceeds of crime basis.

 

Take the lot. See how they like it.

[Lone Striker]

10 hours ago, Doctor FinnBarr said:

I'm all for the subpostmasters receiving compensation but considering Post Office PLC is owned by us, we, the tax payer are paying the comp. Why should I be paying for the failings of the Post Office and Horizon? Time to start jailing the twats!

Thats one argument for privatising some public services, although  in this case presumably the PO has already  "recovered money" from the convicted sub-postmasters (and other sub-postmasters to avoid prosecution)  - money they hadn't stolen in the first place, which would mean that the PO has obtained that money fraudulently.      

 

 (Not saying I agree with privatising public services, btw ) 

 

I'm a bit suspicious when one publicly funded body (the police) investigates another publicly funded body (the PO) with a view to bringing criminal charges  - there's a risk that politicians & government-appointed senior execs get "leaned on" by cronies & donors in high places to water things down etc.     

[Footballfirst]

14 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

“Two people have been interviewed under caution. Nobody has been arrested.”

 

They are known (thought ?) to be Gareth Jenkins (whose appearance  at the public enquiry has been delayed several times becuase     i.he wanted assurances that his testimony wouldn't be used to convict him (ie self incrimination) and ii. because PO has repeatedly failed to disclose relevant documents (IIRC on at least two occasions Jenkins has had to be cancelled because various troves of documents have suddenly appeared  which impact him) 

 

 

and a lady called Anne Chambers (I think she's appeared on two seperate occasions at the enquiry on 2022/23). 

 

Below is a link to one of her appearances. If anyone's interested in seeing how an IT support staffer is coopted into the English legal system without the neccessary training (and as a result failing to meet her legal obligations , failed to tell the High Court that the investigations she carried out in 2006 were significantly different from what she  originally did in 2004 (but kept no records of such) - which resulted in Lee Castleton's lawyers being kept in the dark and denied any opportunity to test the evidence put forward ) then this will be interesting viewing.

Lest we forget, this guy was bankrupted to the tune of £350K and lost everything. On the back of "evidence" that probably wasn't admissable : the Post Office lawyers absolutely failed to do their jobs properly. 

 

 

Start at  39.20 ...

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the link. I recall watching some of her evidence previously.

 

While she may be implicated in failing to disclose everything that should have been done in the Castleton case, she did come across as being credible.  I say that because she did highlight the issues she encountered following her court experience to her manager in early 2007 (her "afterthoughts" report) and tried to improve how Fujitsu approached and handled requests for such support from POL.

 

The failure to act on her concerns is one that should be on her management line through Mik Peach and Brian Pinder.  It wasn't her personal failing that Fujitsu failed to take all reasonable steps. 

Edited January 6 by Footballfirst

[Victorian]

On the principle of justice needing to be seen to have been done,  the only satisfactory resolution to all of this is for all individuals to face criminal investigation,  prosecutions where appropriate,  absolutely nobody being kept out of the reach of justice.   The full smash.   

[periodictabledancer]

21 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Thanks for the link. I recall watching some of her evidence previously.

 

While she may be implicated in failing to disclose everything that should have been done in the Castleton case, she did come across as being credible.  I say that because she did highlight the issues she encountered following her court experience to her manager in early 2007 (her "afterthoughts" report) and tried to improve how Fujitsu approached and handled requests for such support from POL.

 

The failure to act on her concerns is one that should be on her management line through Mik Peach and Brian Pinder.  It wasn't her personal failing that Fujitsu failed to take all reasonable steps. 

She does come across as one of  the good guys but there's a part of her evidence, IIRC,  where she gets dismantled by Beer KC and it's possibly that which has  put her in the frame.

It might be the afternoon session of the same day where it happens although she did also appear in 2022.

Sorry I cant recall the specifics. 

[ri Alban]

On 04/01/2024 at 20:00, Footballfirst said:

More on Ed Davey. Might be an innocent explanation, but the more you dig into the scandal, more coincidences appear to crop up.

 

Did Vince Cable no sell it for peanuts. Probably made a wee fortune himself. Libdems!!? Can't be trusted.

[periodictabledancer]

On 04/01/2024 at 20:00, Footballfirst said:

More on Ed Davey. Might be an innocent explanation, but the more you dig into the scandal, more coincidences appear to crop up.

 

Davey's response is that anything he did for HSF had nothing to do with the Post Office .

 

Which begs the questions -

 

Davey could not possibly have been unaware of the issues arising at the Post Office when he was a govt minister. it's simply not tenable. There is a letter circulating on Twitter now where he refused point blank to get involved in the Post Masters issues (not sure if the timimg coincides with either his tenure as a govt minister or at HSF).

 

Given HSF role  (Post Office lawyers) and Davey's histoic role (as govt minister for the Post Office) : if he wasn't acting in any way re his historical govt role, what was he doing that warranted payments of £275K , what on earth did HSF gain from this relationship ? 

 

 

 

 

[ri Alban]

4 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

Davey's response is that anything he did for HSF had nothing to do with the Post Office .

 

Which begs the questions -

 

Davey could not possibly have been unaware of the issues arising at the Post Office when he was a govt minister. it's simply not tenable. There is a letter circulating on Twitter now where he refused point blank to get involved in the Post Masters issues (not sure if the timimg coincides with either his tenure as a govt minister or at HSF).

 

Given HSF role  (Post Office lawyers) and Davey's histoic role (as govt minister for the Post Office) : if he wasn't acting in any way re his historical govt role, what was he doing that warranted payments of £275K , what on earth did HSF gain from this relationship ? 

 

 

 

 

Get the Murder tents oot!

[Bret the Hitman Hearts]

On 05/01/2024 at 18:33, Tommy Brown said:

 

Both situations are scanadlous. Why does it have to be framed as one versus the other? Two scandals can happen simultaneously.

 

(the de-banking didn't only happen to Farage)

[kila]

42 minutes ago, Bret the Hitman Hearts said:

 

Both situations are scanadlous. Why does it have to be framed as one versus the other? Two scandals can happen simultaneously.

 

(the de-banking didn't only happen to Farage)

I think their point is more how the main stream media reported on each of those cases

[Diadora Van Basten]

I watched the sub postmaster played by Will Mellor in the BBC documentary talk about the struggle to get compensation and the mammoth fees being paid to Lawyers.

 

I think they should just make compensation offer across the board to sub postmaster who had to repay money and who lost their job.

 

For those who had to repay monies to The Post Office they should receive double the amount they paid back plus interest at 8% per annum.

 

For those that lost their job they should receive the equivalent of seven years salaries plus interest at 8% per annum.

 

I think this would be a fair offer and also stop lawyers taking the lions share of the compensation payout.

[Footballfirst]

8 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

I watched the sub postmaster played by Will Mellor in the BBC documentary talk about the struggle to get compensation and the mammoth fees being paid to Lawyers.

 

I think they should just make compensation offer across the board to sub postmaster who had to repay money and who lost their job.

 

For those who had to repay monies to The Post Office they should receive double the amount they paid back plus interest at 8% per annum.

 

For those that lost their job they should receive the equivalent of seven years salaries plus interest at 8% per annum.

 

I think this would be a fair offer and also stop lawyers taking the lions share of the compensation payout.

The general intention of the compensation schemes was to compensate sub postmasters to the position they would have been in had they not been sanctioned.

 

Such an approach has already caused some issues, even ignoring the legal fees element.  Some payments were taxable, and at the higher rates, if compensation was paid in a lumpsum.  Others who had been made bankrupt were obliged to pay back creditors. Those scenarios have been recognised and steps are being taken to get round them.

 

However, there appears little appetite from POL to pay anything like a fair settlement to those who lost their liberty, homes, savings, status, self esteem etc.  Exemplary damages should be paid to all those affected.

 

Any monies retained by POL from sub postmasters who put in their own money to make up shortfalls is nothing short of theft by POL and their execs need to be held accountable for that. 

[Footballfirst]

The pressure on the government to act is growing.

 

 

[Diadora Van Basten]

40 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

The pressure on the government to act is growing.

 

 

Also the CEO of the Post Office should be asked to hand back her CBE. Unfortunately there is no legal way of hitting her personally in the pocket.

[Dawnrazor]

45 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

Also the CEO of the Post Office should be asked to hand back her CBE. Unfortunately there is no legal way of hitting her personally in the pocket.

Can't any sub postmasters take a civil case against her now all this new evidence has been brought to light?

[Diadora Van Basten]

1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said:

Can't any sub postmasters take a civil case against her now all this new evidence has been brought to light?

I would imagine contract law would mean they can only sue the post office and not post office officials.

[Footballfirst]

29 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

I would imagine contract law would mean they can only sue the post office and not post office officials.

If there is evidence that, in her role as CEO, she personally initiated or instructed POL staff to carry out an unlawful act then she could be held responsible as an individual and prosecuted accordingly, e.g. a criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, or fraud. Depending on the charge and sentencing guidelines, the judge may be able to determine a sentence of imprisonment and/or levy a fine. If a fine was levied, then is would probably be based on her means (considerable?).

 

The types of things I had in mind was destroying evidence, withholding evidence, perjury, theft through hanging onto funds wrongly taken from sub postmasters to make up shortfalls etc. 

 

 

[Dawnrazor]

6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

If there is evidence that, in her role as CEO, she personally initiated or instructed POL staff to carry out an unlawful act then she could be held responsible as an individual and prosecuted accordingly, e.g. a criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, or fraud. Depending on the charge and sentencing guidelines, the judge may be able to determine a sentence of imprisonment and/or levy a fine. If a fine was levied, then is would probably be based on her means (considerable?).

 

The types of things I had in mind was destroying evidence, withholding evidence, perjury, theft through hanging onto funds wrongly taken from sub postmasters to make up shortfalls etc. 

 

 

👍

[The Mighty Thor]

24 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

If there is evidence that, in her role as CEO, she personally initiated or instructed POL staff to carry out an unlawful act then she could be held responsible as an individual and prosecuted accordingly, e.g. a criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, or fraud. Depending on the charge and sentencing guidelines, the judge may be able to determine a sentence of imprisonment and/or levy a fine. If a fine was levied, then is would probably be based on her means (considerable?).

 

The types of things I had in mind was destroying evidence, withholding evidence, perjury, theft through hanging onto funds wrongly taken from sub postmasters to make up shortfalls etc. 

 

 

Shred-it must be on a bumper contract. 

[Footballfirst]

Dan Neidle points out that the Courts can't cope with the volume of convictions to be reviewed and will take Parliament to act. He notes that it reflects poorly on the Courts' capability to right a wrong.

 

 

As is pointed out in the X thread, there is the chance that a handful of truly "guilty" postmasters would have their convictions quashed by universal action by the government. 

 

However, its is better that happens for a few, than delay justice for the many.

[Victorian]

Well it's always been a widely accepted doctrine that it's better for the guilty to escape justice than for the innocent to be wrongly convicted.  The government will get it's thumb out of it's arse when they've decided how getting involved will affect voting intentions.  

[periodictabledancer]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Shred-it must be on a bumper contract. 

Google "John Scott post office" , mind boggling. He planned to shred everything until the PO lawyers (who should've told him in no uncertain terms anyway !) contacted their in-house lawyers to ask if this was OK !!!!