***Official Heart of Midlothian v Dundee United Match Thread***

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Shaun-mortimer said:

Need to go to back 4, with smith at right back, playing the 3 is making players keeping passing back the way 

 

Change a system that is winning games consistently?

 

I don't think so. 

[Jingle Bells]

20 minutes ago, 4marsbars said:

Yes, one defeat in 11 (12?) suggests we need a major rethink.

 

How many times have we had to revert to a back 4 to rescue/win games though?

[151]

If we are missing anything it's Devlin. He does so much work off the ball, yes he makes mistakes on the ball but he is the engine that presses and does the work Snodgrass' legs can't do.

[4marsbars]

20 minutes ago, Jingle Bells said:

 

How many times have we had to revert to a back 4 to rescue/win games though?

Are you suggesting that Robbie is flexible as well as smart? I agree.

[Jingle Bells]

44 minutes ago, 4marsbars said:

Are you suggesting that Robbie is flexible as well as smart? I agree.

Or he is being a bit of a numpty for thinking that playing the same failed formation, against the better sides, will somehow have a different outcome the next time around?

[4marsbars]

6 minutes ago, Jingle Bells said:

Or he is being a bit of a numpty for thinking that playing the same failed formation, against the better sides, will somehow have a different outcome the next time around?

Happy to declare my position. 

 

I am in the Robbie is Not a Numpty camp.

 

Am I wrong?

[Thomaso]

2 hours ago, davemclaren said:

We miss Smith on the right, defensively. 

Dave probably but we really need to bin the back 3 formation IMO. Our 3 seem unsure who is marking who and we are leaving huge gaps down both wings!

Lets get back to a solid back 4!

[OTT]

2 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

Robbie actually said that we were too slow in moving the ball about and you could see that he had told Cochrane to make some runs into space when he came on.

 

So the question is are the players knocking the ball about at the back because of the formation or the lack of runners in front of them?

 

Does it really matter if we play with a back 3 or 4 ? so long as we move the ball quicker and players run into spaces to receive forward passes.

 

I think it might have been the wingbacks in the first half. Kingsley wasn't really making gut bursting runs forward to drive the ball into their box, neither was Forrest, both got up to help with attacks, but both were looking to try and cross it in, rather than take the ball into the box and set something up. I think that might have been what we were missing. One thing I love about Cochrane is his link up play with McKay, he does so well playing one twos and driving forward into the oppositions box with the ball. If we could get that from who's on the right side, I think our play would click. 

 

McKay is always looking to get on the ball, Shanks drags players with him all over the pitch and Gino also does a power of work. So I'm not entirely sure the blame lies with them. I think its that our wingbacks aren't doing enough to support our attacks. I think over the summer we need to seriously look at wingbacks and see if we can sort this out. Its a specialist position, Forrest isn't a wingback, neither is Smith. Square pegs in square holes would be good to see and there will be options out there that can improve us. 

[JimmyCant]

3 hours ago, Jingle Bells said:

Depends a lot on whether you consider 3-4-3(i.e. 5 at the back)as a failed experiment or not, Jimmy. 

It’s hardly a failed experiment given our league position and it’s only 5 at the back when we don’t have the ball, which outwith the OF is way less time than we have it ourselves. The system is designed for recovering the ball deep, recycling possession and playing through teams. Like any other system you can dream up, if you don’t play at tempo and transition quickly you’re going to get caught in possession or give the ball away easily.

 

 

[GinRummy]

It’s not the back 3 or 4 it’s the central midfield 2. Teams, including games we’ve won stroll through our midfield with ease and they’re right on top of our defence. Anyone could see this with United yesterday in the first half hour and it’s even more apparent when Devlin isn’t playing. 

[4marsbars]

11 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

It’s not the back 3 or 4 it’s the central midfield 2. Teams, including games we’ve won stroll through our midfield with ease and they’re right on top of our defence. Anyone could see this with United yesterday in the first half hour and it’s even more apparent when Devlin isn’t playing.

 

 

But they still don't beat us.

 

If they did, I'd agree there's a case for changing things.

[GinRummy]

Just now, 4marsbars said:

 

 

But they still don't beat us.

 

If they did, I'd agree there's a case for changing things.

I don’t care how we win. I just feel it’s sometimes better to change things before we start losing games. I totally get the argument that if it ain’t broke don’t fix it but my own opinion is we’d be better as a 4-3-3 or a 3-5-2 and try to control the midfield. He often tweaks things during games and changes formation so I don’t think the players would struggle with a change at the beginning of games. 

[wavydavy]

1 hour ago, OTT said:

 

I think it might have been the wingbacks in the first half. Kingsley wasn't really making gut bursting runs forward to drive the ball into their box, neither was Forrest, both got up to help with attacks, but both were looking to try and cross it in, rather than take the ball into the box and set something up. I think that might have been what we were missing. One thing I love about Cochrane is his link up play with McKay, he does so well playing one twos and driving forward into the oppositions box with the ball. If we could get that from who's on the right side, I think our play would click. 

 

McKay is always looking to get on the ball, Shanks drags players with him all over the pitch and Gino also does a power of work. So I'm not entirely sure the blame lies with them. I think its that our wingbacks aren't doing enough to support our attacks. I think over the summer we need to seriously look at wingbacks and see if we can sort this out. Its a specialist position, Forrest isn't a wingback, neither is Smith. Square pegs in square holes would be good to see and there will be options out there that can improve us. 

 

I think we are very one dimensional in our play and rely too heavily on using the wings.

 

There is nothing wrong with that but when teams close that avenue down we struggle when we aer forced through the middle.

 

Snodgrass is virtually a one man band in there especially when Devlin is missing. 

 

I think we improved yesterday after Grant came on.

[upgotheheads]

3 hours ago, OTT said:

 

I think it might have been the wingbacks in the first half. Kingsley wasn't really making gut bursting runs forward to drive the ball into their box, neither was Forrest, both got up to help with attacks, but both were looking to try and cross it in, rather than take the ball into the box and set something up. I think that might have been what we were missing. One thing I love about Cochrane is his link up play with McKay, he does so well playing one twos and driving forward into the oppositions box with the ball. If we could get that from who's on the right side, I think our play would click. 

 

McKay is always looking to get on the ball, Shanks drags players with him all over the pitch and Gino also does a power of work. So I'm not entirely sure the blame lies with them. I think its that our wingbacks aren't doing enough to support our attacks. I think over the summer we need to seriously look at wingbacks and see if we can sort this out. Its a specialist position, Forrest isn't a wingback, neither is Smith. Square pegs in square holes would be good to see and there will be options out there that can improve us. 

 

Forrest made runs when he got the ball, trouble is delivery from Hill was so slow that he didn't get the ball before defenders had closed him down.

[Pasquale for King]

6 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

Robbie actually said that we were too slow in moving the ball about and you could see that he had told Cochrane to make some runs into space when he came on.

 

So the question is are the players knocking the ball about at the back because of the formation or the lack of runners in front of them?

 

Does it really matter if we play with a back 3 or 4 ? so long as we move the ball quicker and players run into spaces to receive forward passes.

Its the formation, Snodgrass was screaming at Rowles early doors to give him the ball when he had a man on him, the idea being he passes to the LB who passes to LM and we’re off. It only really works when someone presses Snodgrass and the others are in space. When teams press the CHs they can win the ball high and score, the CHs have to know when to pass to Snodgrass and when not to. 
When it works its great but early in games we sometimes struggle to impose ourselves on teams, we did against Hibs at home but they adjusted by the second half. We then struggled to impose ourselves against them at ER. 
A back 4 means one more attacker but as last Wednesday showed it there has to be a balance. 

[Pasquale for King]

5 hours ago, 151 said:

If we are missing anything it's Devlin. He does so much work off the ball, yes he makes mistakes on the ball but he is the engine that presses and does the work Snodgrass' legs can't do.

Definitely, putting Halliday and Mckay or Kuol wont help that. Kio or Grant have to be played until he returns. 

[Jack Torrance]

Dunno if it's been mentioned already, at Gino's sending off you'll see Robbie sarcastically clapping the ref when he gave Gino his first yellow. He was in Gino's line of sight and I'm sure it prompted Gino to do the same, resulting in the second yellow.

 

I noticed it at the game and just checked it on the highlights.  Probably not the smartest example to set your players. Still no excuse for the ridiculous bookings though I guess.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Jack Torrance

[OTT]

1 hour ago, Jack Torrance said:

Dunno if it's been mentioned already, at Gino's sending off you'll see Robbie sarcastically clapping the ref when he gave Gino his first yellow. He was in Gino's line of sight and I'm sure it prompted Gino to do the same, resulting in the second yellow.

 

I noticed it at the game and just checked it on the highlights.  Probably not the smartest example to set your players. Still no excuse for the ridiculous bookings though I guess.

 

Got to agree with you there. Robbie should be controlling himself a bit better. Its no good getting sent to the stands and banned, its even worse when the players start emulating that lack of discipline. 

 

The lack of respect for officials though, its because they're genuinely not deserving of that respect. Virtually all of them have been promoted simply because they belong to the West Coast associations, not because they're actually good at their job as we're reminded of on a weekly basis. Rather than the manager and players losing their heads, I would really like to see the club challenging the SFA on the lack of east coast top flight referees. When 15 out of 16 belong to the West Coast, and all FIFA grade referees are also from the West it suggests there is a complete lack of equality and opportunity for those interested in refereeing on the East coast. If it was any other demographic, the lack of diversity would be treated much more seriously. Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen and both Dundee clubs should be leading the charge on this and asking these awkward questions and demanding answers. Its unjustifiable and does a massive disservice to the thousands of fans that turn up each week to support these clubs. 

[wheelyjim]

Ah the old formation chat. Yeah lets change a system the players have spent seasons getting right. Wed be sitting clueless ducks.

[Jingle Bells]

7 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

It’s hardly a failed experiment given our league position and it’s only 5 at the back when we don’t have the ball, which outwith the OF is way less time than we have it ourselves. The system is designed for recovering the ball deep, recycling possession and playing through teams. Like any other system you can dream up, if you don’t play at tempo and transition quickly you’re going to get caught in possession or give the ball away easily.

 

 

We have lost the last 7 games against the Hun conceding 21 goals, apparently.

[Thomaso]

10 hours ago, Jingle Bells said:

 

How many times have we had to revert to a back 4 to rescue/win games though?

Exactly

[pettigrewsstylist]

8 hours ago, OTT said:

 

I think it might have been the wingbacks in the first half. Kingsley wasn't really making gut bursting runs forward to drive the ball into their box, neither was Forrest, both got up to help with attacks, but both were looking to try and cross it in, rather than take the ball into the box and set something up. I think that might have been what we were missing. One thing I love about Cochrane is his link up play with McKay, he does so well playing one twos and driving forward into the oppositions box with the ball. If we could get that from who's on the right side, I think our play would click. 

 

McKay is always looking to get on the ball, Shanks drags players with him all over the pitch and Gino also does a power of work. So I'm not entirely sure the blame lies with them. I think its that our wingbacks aren't doing enough to support our attacks. I think over the summer we need to seriously look at wingbacks and see if we can sort this out. Its a specialist position, Forrest isn't a wingback, neither is Smith. Square pegs in square holes would be good to see and there will be options out there that can improve us. 

We need 2 for the right or the endless debate about 3 at the back continues. Also need another RCB.

[Pasquale for King]

5 hours ago, Jack Torrance said:

Dunno if it's been mentioned already, at Gino's sending off you'll see Robbie sarcastically clapping the ref when he gave Gino his first yellow. He was in Gino's line of sight and I'm sure it prompted Gino to do the same, resulting in the second yellow.

 

I noticed it at the game and just checked it on the highlights.  Probably not the smartest example to set your players. Still no excuse for the ridiculous bookings though I guess.

Yeah he doesn’t set a good example, how can he punish him for it. It’s understandable but he does seem to get involved more than other managers. 

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Jingle Bells said:

We have lost the last 7 games against the Hun conceding 21 goals, apparently.

Scored 1 against their youths. 

[Pasquale for King]

4 hours ago, wheelyjim said:

Ah the old formation chat. Yeah lets change a system the players have spent seasons getting right. Wed be sitting clueless ducks.

We haven’t got it right though, we don't control games as much as we should and teams get far too many chances against us. Luckily the rest of the teams are poor, the worst team in the league gave us some huge problems with 10 men never mind 11. 

[Pasquale for King]

49 minutes ago, pettigrewsstylist said:

We need 2 for the right or the endless debate about 3 at the back continues. Also need another RCB.

Not easy to find wing backs, nobody brings them through, they’re either crap wingers or poor defenders. Look at the bother Spurs have had getting them and the money they’ve wasted. 
None of our guys on either side are truly wingbacks and excel at every aspect of the position. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

12 hours ago, milky_26 said:

and devlin in midfield

 

To me this week showed how much Devlin and Smith are integral to the 3-4-3 working. I like Natty and Forrest just fine but they don't do the possession retaining work that Smith does, and we don't have anyone who replicates Devlin's skill and endeavor when he's off.

 

In that light it makes sense why we're after Dr. Funk coming back. We need someone with midfielder ball skills and a bit of defensive nous who can get into the final third when required.

[August Landmesser]

15 hours ago, OTT said:

 

I think it might have been the wingbacks in the first half. Kingsley wasn't really making gut bursting runs forward to drive the ball into their box, neither was Forrest, both got up to help with attacks, but both were looking to try and cross it in, rather than take the ball into the box and set something up. I think that might have been what we were missing. One thing I love about Cochrane is his link up play with McKay, he does so well playing one twos and driving forward into the oppositions box with the ball. If we could get that from who's on the right side, I think our play would click. 

 

McKay is always looking to get on the ball, Shanks drags players with him all over the pitch and Gino also does a power of work. So I'm not entirely sure the blame lies with them. I think its that our wingbacks aren't doing enough to support our attacks. I think over the summer we need to seriously look at wingbacks and see if we can sort this out. Its a specialist position, Forrest isn't a wingback, neither is Smith. Square pegs in square holes would be good to see and there will be options out there that can improve us. 

Atkinson can do that in patches, but unfortunately his defending isn't great.

 

For years we've been looking for a Michael Smith-equivalent on the left, now we've got Cochrane and Smith is getting on a bit we need a Cochrane-equivalent on the right!

[karipidis]

Kingsley is not a LWB. Either LCB or LB in a 4. He likes the game played in front of him and doesn’t make the attacking runs without the ball that Cochrane does. 

[Mac80]

18 hours ago, Thomaso said:

We desperately need to fix our defence!

Outwith the Rangers game we have on conceded two in the last seven. Not too bad. 
 

RB is a problem though, we really should have gave shef wed what they wanted for C Pat. 

[Takeshi kovac]

10 hours ago, wheelyjim said:

Ah the old formation chat. Yeah lets change a system the players have spent seasons getting right. Wed be sitting clueless ducks.

Except every time we change away from it we play better 😄

[TheBigO]

17 hours ago, 151 said:

If we are missing anything it's Devlin. He does so much work off the ball, yes he makes mistakes on the ball but he is the engine that presses and does the work Snodgrass' legs can't do.

As much as defensively, I think we're missing Cam offensively.  The team thrive on Cam turning the ball over and causing mayhem in the opposition half (helps he can pick out a pass once he's robbed the ball too).  He's created so many goals and even more chances.

 

Frankly, he's just a really good player and we miss him. He has a skillset that is hard to replace. 

 

I do think Grant is the closest we have in a way.  He gets stuck in and he's positive.  I guess I mean he does it in a different way from Cam, but he gets us playing higher up the park (cute movement, good close skill, eye for a pass, happy to take the ball in tight spots, brave with his pass/doesn't just make easy choice).  On the face of things he and Snoddy aren't physical enough, but they'd have a lot of football and it's not like either of them are shrinking violets.

 

The 343/433 debate rages on.  What is difficult is the success rate in terms of ppg with a 3 must be massive since he introduced it in the Championship (after Brora and QOTS??).  I can see it works sometimes but I also think it simply hamstrings us a lot when a team sits in.  A 433/4231 simply allows another natural attacker on the park.  I just think we have the players for it (other than RB without Smith, but Sibbick or Hill can play right in a 4 no bother imo and actually in doing so give Cochrane extra licence to bomb)

[Ex member of the SaS]

First chance I have had to post so sorry if a bit late. Ok Once again the score papers over the cracks. The commentators and crowd at half time all seem to agree we are too slow ponderous and predictable. Slow play out from the back is not working and when we do move the ball quicker it produces results. Why can't the keeper kick the ball once in a while?

We allowed a ten man team, with three old men bully us and once again the old man Fletcher makes a young guy look slow.

Ok a big improvement in the second half BUT we can't win games against the better teams by only playing half the game.

Thankfully a wonder goal calmed things down in injury time but we should not be worrying about teams like Utd.

[Ex member of the SaS]

7 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Yeah he doesn’t set a good example, how can he punish him for it. It’s understandable but he does seem to get involved more than other managers. 

Their players waisted more time when one up than any of our all game yet no card? We really need to be smarter with the west coast refs as we won't be allowed to get close to Sevco and red cards will come thick and fast when /if we do get close.

[Pasquale for King]

12 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Their players waisted more time when one up than any of our all game yet no card? We really need to be smarter with the west coast refs as we won't be allowed to get close to Sevco and red cards will come thick and fast when /if we do get close.

Definitely 

[i wish jj was my dad]

42 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

First chance I have had to post so sorry if a bit late. Ok Once again the score papers over the cracks. The commentators and crowd at half time all seem to agree we are too slow ponderous and predictable. Slow play out from the back is not working and when we do move the ball quicker it produces results. Why can't the keeper kick the ball once in a while?

We allowed a ten man team, with three old men bully us and once again the old man Fletcher makes a young guy look slow.

Ok a big improvement in the second half BUT we can't win games against the better teams by only playing half the game.

Thankfully a wonder goal calmed things down in injury time but we should not be worrying about teams like Utd.

Utd have given Celtic and Rangers a game this season and Fletcher has caused every team a headache. I don't like him but I am not so bitter that I can't recognise a good player. 

We also vary our play from being methodical possession based to direct to good effect. See the goals we scored as examples. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

The passing from the back is fine, when it is done sharply. Unfortunately at the moment, the guys at the back are not getting the movement in front of them, and 2 or passes become 6 or 7, subsequently the game is slower.

 

Probably more worrying for me, we seem to have gone passive winning it back, first half United had several chances as a consequence

[pettigrewsstylist]

8 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Not easy to find wing backs, nobody brings them through, they’re either crap wingers or poor defenders. Look at the bother Spurs have had getting them and the money they’ve wasted. 
None of our guys on either side are truly wingbacks and excel at every aspect of the position. 

Undoubtedley. We have to work within resources at our level though. If we are determined to persist with 3 at back, which inthink we are under current mgmt team, then Kingsley and Cochrane are capable at this level. The system fails if not balanced tho. Right hand side not able to function consistently in that formation. Smith can do but only in fleeting glimpses and they are only going to become less with every passing week. 

Hill, Sibbick, Halliday, etc are sticking plasters.

I do wonder is CP was earmarked for this role. 

[pettigrewsstylist]

9 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Not easy to find wing backs, nobody brings them through, they’re either crap wingers or poor defenders. Look at the bother Spurs have had getting them and the money they’ve wasted. 
None of our guys on either side are truly wingbacks and excel at every aspect of the position. 

Undoubtedley. We have to work within resources at our level though. If we are determined to persist with 3 at back, which i think we are under current mgmt team, then Kingsley and Cochrane are capable at this level. The system fails if not balanced tho. Right hand side not able to function consistently in that formation. Smith can do but only in fleeting glimpses and they are only going to become less with every passing week. 

Hill, Sibbick, Halliday, etc are sticking plasters.

I do wonder is CP was earmarked for this role. 

[wheelyjim]

17 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

We haven’t got it right though, we don't control games as much as we should and teams get far too many chances against us. Luckily the rest of the teams are poor, the worst team in the league gave us some huge problems with 10 men never mind 11. 

Euros, table place and results seem to disagree. Every team will "get chances against us"

[Pasquale for King]

58 minutes ago, pettigrewsstylist said:

Undoubtedley. We have to work within resources at our level though. If we are determined to persist with 3 at back, which inthink we are under current mgmt team, then Kingsley and Cochrane are capable at this level. The system fails if not balanced tho. Right hand side not able to function consistently in that formation. Smith can do but only in fleeting glimpses and they are only going to become less with every passing week. 

Hill, Sibbick, Halliday, etc are sticking plasters.

I do wonder is CP was earmarked for this role. 

Agreed, yeah I think he was. 

[Pasquale for King]

48 minutes ago, wheelyjim said:

Euros, table place and results seem to disagree. Every team will "get chances against us"

We are way ahead of the rest of the league, two easy derby wins and against the sheep show what we can do when only showing fleeting glimpses of our best form. 
Teams will obviously have chances but when you're lucky to be only 1 down against 10 men at home to the worst team in the league he had to change. We have not perfected the 343 system,even the manager would accept that. 
 

[Ex member of the SaS]

2 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Utd have given Celtic and Rangers a game this season and Fletcher has caused every team a headache. I don't like him but I am not so bitter that I can't recognise a good player. 

We also vary our play from being methodical possession based to direct to good effect. See the goals we scored as examples. 

Quicker play from the back is my point! Early doors we played seven, SEVEN, passes to get to the center circle only to lose possession. Won the ball back and played SIX passes to no avail. Possession football is fine and has it's merits by FFS NOT ALL THE TIME! Said often enough why can't they mix it up and have the keeper play a long ball over the top, and keep the opposition guessing!

The opposition attack, we win the ball and by the time they mess around they are back in a defensive position and we don't have enough player forward to make a decent attack. As I ( and you ) have said we MUST move the ball quicker. 

Another gripe is everyone back at set pieces, Play Gino and Koul ( for example ) on the half way line and make them hold players back to stop the breakaway.

[Ex member of the SaS]

1 hour ago, wheelyjim said:

Euros, table place and results seem to disagree. Every team will "get chances against us"

Every team will but we give away too many chances, We won't win every game but when playing 10 men and two or three geriatrics we should not be giving them a goal start.

Ok Fletcher and Mulgrew and not that old but never the less neither should be quicker than our guys.

[wheelyjim]

8 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

We are way ahead of the rest of the league, two easy derby wins and against the sheep show what we can do when only showing fleeting glimpses of our best form. 
Teams will obviously have chances but when you're lucky to be only 1 down against 10 men at home to the worst team in the league he had to change. We have not perfected the 343 system,even the manager would accept that. 
 

Never said we had

[wheelyjim]

8 hours ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Every team will but we give away too many chances, We won't win every game but when playing 10 men and two or three geriatrics we should not be giving them a goal start.

Ok Fletcher and Mulgrew and not that old but never the less neither should be quicker than our guys.

Relax - If we win 3 1 at Tyne and score a goal you will never will see again That will do me - couldnt give a flying how many we play against - thats their problem

[wheelyjim]

And for all you midfield aficionados - don't know if you've noticed Cammy and Benny are injured.

Edited February 6, 2023 by wheelyjim
d

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, wheelyjim said:

And for all you midfield aficionados - don't know if you've noticed Cammy and Benny are injured.

Yes and we paid over £600k for Kio and Grant and play wingers there instead. 

[wheelyjim]

8 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Yes and we paid over £600k for Kio and Grant and play wingers there instead. 

write to your MP

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Quicker play from the back is my point! Early doors we played seven, SEVEN, passes to get to the center circle only to lose possession. Won the ball back and played SIX passes to no avail. Possession football is fine and has it's merits by FFS NOT ALL THE TIME! Said often enough why can't they mix it up and have the keeper play a long ball over the top, and keep the opposition guessing!

The opposition attack, we win the ball and by the time they mess around they are back in a defensive position and we don't have enough player forward to make a decent attack. As I ( and you ) have said we MUST move the ball quicker. 

Another gripe is everyone back at set pieces, Play Gino and Koul ( for example ) on the half way line and make them hold players back to stop the breakaway.

It wasn't all the time ffs. We do vary it but we just dont play the direct percentage football you want us to. We score some amount of goals for a team that is so ponderous in attack