Orange Walk EH today

[PortyBeach]

22 hours ago, The White Cockade said:

It was created to keep Ireland Protestant

Failed in that so why is not being disbanded?

It won’t be disbanded because to survive, the OO and loyalism needs to maintain that its structures, institutions, and status are under permanent siege.

[Ainsley Harriott]

Deary me as bad as the wiliam wallace lot that like their face paint and flags.

[davemclaren]

7 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Deary me as bad as the wiliam wallace lot that like their face paint and flags.

FREEDOM!!!

[Ainsley Harriott]

On 11/06/2022 at 23:16, jonesy said:

You're welcome, NT.

 

Fancy a game of Street Fighter II: Prophet Edition?

 

 

Great British Beard Off

[Scotfotbawfan]

Seems people have an opinion it's all the dregs of society involved in these organisations too,  it couldn't be further from the truth.  I know managers of nationwide companies who's suited and booted everyday for work,  alot of them have very respectable jobs and act nothing like the stereotype that some on this thread think they are.

 

Alot of the bands spend thousands of pounds on uniforms etc aswell and pay for tutors to teach them,  so they put alot of work into appearance and sound.  The last thing they would have in their ranks is the average stereotype people see on here.  Some bands wouldn't look out of place playing standard wise next to military bands.  If you don't believe me just goole Mourne young defenders or blackskull fb.  Granted however a fair few bands could do more to better themselves. 

 

As for all the people in it hating catholics etc.  I've yet to encounter anyone in it who has a hatred for catholics.  Everyone in it will have friends who are Catholic and everyone gets on just fine.  If there was a genuine dislike for each other then it would be segregated housing etc to keep both sides apart.  None of that's needed though and shouldn't be needed.  It's exaggerated in scotland about how bad sectarianism is. 

 

It's the bangers at the side of the road that's the problem,  events that attract big crowds will always have that though.  

[escobri]

15 minutes ago, Scotfotbawfan said:

Seems people have an opinion it's all the dregs of society involved in these organisations too,  it couldn't be further from the truth.  I know managers of nationwide companies who's suited and booted everyday for work,  alot of them have very respectable jobs and act nothing like the stereotype that some on this thread think they are.

 

Alot of the bands spend thousands of pounds on uniforms etc aswell and pay for tutors to teach them,  so they put alot of work into appearance and sound.  The last thing they would have in their ranks is the average stereotype people see on here.  Some bands wouldn't look out of place playing standard wise next to military bands.  If you don't believe me just goole Mourne young defenders or blackskull fb.  Granted however a fair few bands could do more to better themselves. 

 

As for all the people in it hating catholics etc.  I've yet to encounter anyone in it who has a hatred for catholics.  Everyone in it will have friends who are Catholic and everyone gets on just fine.  If there was a genuine dislike for each other then it would be segregated housing etc to keep both sides apart.  None of that's needed though and shouldn't be needed.  It's exaggerated in scotland about how bad sectarianism is. 

 

It's the bangers at the side of the road that's the problem,  events that attract big crowds will always have that though.  

They'd have no problems attending catholic friends wedding in the church then surely 🤷‍♂️ , looks like they're allowed in now after all, I wonder how many do venture in though. Post edited by me.

Edited June 13, 2022 by escobri

[The White Cockade]

20 minutes ago, Scotfotbawfan said:

Seems people have an opinion it's all the dregs of society involved in these organisations too,  it couldn't be further from the truth.  I know managers of nationwide companies who's suited and booted everyday for work,  alot of them have very respectable jobs and act nothing like the stereotype that some on this thread think they are.

 

Alot of the bands spend thousands of pounds on uniforms etc aswell and pay for tutors to teach them,  so they put alot of work into appearance and sound.  The last thing they would have in their ranks is the average stereotype people see on here.  Some bands wouldn't look out of place playing standard wise next to military bands.  If you don't believe me just goole Mourne young defenders or blackskull fb.  Granted however a fair few bands could do more to better themselves. 

 

As for all the people in it hating catholics etc.  I've yet to encounter anyone in it who has a hatred for catholics.  Everyone in it will have friends who are Catholic and everyone gets on just fine.  If there was a genuine dislike for each other then it would be segregated housing etc to keep both sides apart.  None of that's needed though and shouldn't be needed.  It's exaggerated in scotland about how bad sectarianism is. 

 

It's the bangers at the side of the road that's the problem,  events that attract big crowds will always have that though.  

Comedy gold!

[Pans Jambo]

53 minutes ago, Scotfotbawfan said:

Seems people have an opinion it's all the dregs of society involved in these organisations too,  it couldn't be further from the truth.  I know managers of nationwide companies who's suited and booted everyday for work,  alot of them have very respectable jobs and act nothing like the stereotype that some on this thread think they are.

 

Alot of the bands spend thousands of pounds on uniforms etc aswell and pay for tutors to teach them,  so they put alot of work into appearance and sound.  The last thing they would have in their ranks is the average stereotype people see on here.  Some bands wouldn't look out of place playing standard wise next to military bands.  If you don't believe me just goole Mourne young defenders or blackskull fb.  Granted however a fair few bands could do more to better themselves. 

 

As for all the people in it hating catholics etc.  I've yet to encounter anyone in it who has a hatred for catholics.  Everyone in it will have friends who are Catholic and everyone gets on just fine.  If there was a genuine dislike for each other then it would be segregated housing etc to keep both sides apart.  None of that's needed though and shouldn't be needed.  It's exaggerated in scotland about how bad sectarianism is. 

 

It's the bangers at the side of the road that's the problem,  events that attract big crowds will always have that though.  

Went to school with a good few of the “Star of the East” mob. 
Complete knuckle dragging head bangers still living in 1690.  
Just because they have a nice job, learn the drum or the flute and spend thousands on a clown outfit doesnt make them nice people. 
Im sure theres a few bank managers and doctors in the NRA and the KKK too. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

4 hours ago, The White Cockade said:

Comedy gold!

No member of the ludge hates kafflicks....

🤥

[Jambo_jim2001]

12 hours ago, Scotfotbawfan said:

Seems people have an opinion it's all the dregs of society involved in these organisations too,  it couldn't be further from the truth.  I know managers of nationwide companies who's suited and booted everyday for work,  alot of them have very respectable jobs and act nothing like the stereotype that some on this thread think they are.

 

Alot of the bands spend thousands of pounds on uniforms etc aswell and pay for tutors to teach them,  so they put alot of work into appearance and sound.  The last thing they would have in their ranks is the average stereotype people see on here.  Some bands wouldn't look out of place playing standard wise next to military bands.  If you don't believe me just goole Mourne young defenders or blackskull fb.  Granted however a fair few bands could do more to better themselves. 

 

As for all the people in it hating catholics etc.  I've yet to encounter anyone in it who has a hatred for catholics.  Everyone in it will have friends who are Catholic and everyone gets on just fine.  If there was a genuine dislike for each other then it would be segregated housing etc to keep both sides apart.  None of that's needed though and shouldn't be needed.  It's exaggerated in scotland about how bad sectarianism is. 

 

It's the bangers at the side of the road that's the problem,  events that attract big crowds will always have that though.  

Two ex Catholics were inducted into local lodge here and numbers tumbled. It's true that some the folk that follow on the sides are nutters. I don't know where you live mate,but bigotry and sectarianism are alive and kicking here😳 btw majority of my family are involved in the fraternity and are staunchly 2 1/2 to the end. 

[OBE]

14 hours ago, Scotfotbawfan said:

Seems people have an opinion it's all the dregs of society involved in these organisations too,  it couldn't be further from the truth.  I know managers of nationwide companies who's suited and booted everyday for work,  alot of them have very respectable jobs and act nothing like the stereotype that some on this thread think they are.

 

Alot of the bands spend thousands of pounds on uniforms etc aswell and pay for tutors to teach them,  so they put alot of work into appearance and sound.  The last thing they would have in their ranks is the average stereotype people see on here.  Some bands wouldn't look out of place playing standard wise next to military bands.  If you don't believe me just goole Mourne young defenders or blackskull fb.  Granted however a fair few bands could do more to better themselves. 

 

As for all the people in it hating catholics etc.  I've yet to encounter anyone in it who has a hatred for catholics.  Everyone in it will have friends who are Catholic and everyone gets on just fine.  If there was a genuine dislike for each other then it would be segregated housing etc to keep both sides apart.  None of that's needed though and shouldn't be needed.  It's exaggerated in scotland about how bad sectarianism is. 

 

It's the bangers at the side of the road that's the problem,  events that attract big crowds will always have that though.  

 

Time for the respectful, suited and booted to get their rank and file in order, is this the correct terminology, you did mention military and uniforms? They do have Bangers in their ranks, many from the F4 class at my secondary school enlisted. They enjoyed the gallus walk, the booze, singing and dancing, especially the pavement stuff. Maybe the Bangers are tolerated for their bawbees, is there subscription fees for these orders war chests?...

[Dirty Deeds]

I can't disagree with their right to march but I can laugh at their ridiculousness when they do.

 

I can also choose to disagree with their opinions and sadly for them they are looking out of touch with the rest of Northern Ireland. 

[Dennis Denuto]

I am unsure why anyone cares what the religion of the Monarch is, or why they require that person to have any religion.

 

If there is truly no persecution for ones religion or no religion, then why would it matter?

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

Brain-dead bigots to a man and woman.

[John Findlay]

[Scotfotbawfan]

9 hours ago, OBE said:

 

Time for the respectful, suited and booted to get their rank and file in order, is this the correct terminology, you did mention military and uniforms? They do have Bangers in their ranks, many from the F4 class at my secondary school enlisted. They enjoyed the gallus walk, the booze, singing and dancing, especially the pavement stuff. Maybe the Bangers are tolerated for their bawbees, is there subscription fees for these orders war chests?...

 

Absolutely some will, but alot of the bands won't tolerate it and of your a banger youl more than likely get told your not welcome anymore.  Some bands spend thousands of pounds on uniforms and thousands of pounds on instruments. Then spend good money on getting tutors into make them sound better.  Last thing they want is having someone in the band acting like an ******* bringing the rest of them down after alot of effort has been made to make them look and sound better.

[Scotfotbawfan]

On 13/06/2022 at 16:34, escobri said:

They'd have no problems attending catholic friends wedding in the church then surely 🤷‍♂️ , looks like they're allowed in now after all, I wonder how many do venture in though. Post edited by me.

 

The bands have never had such a rule that you couldn't go into a chapel, and I know plenty who have for funerals.  Had an argument with someone in the orange order about a funeral before.  He told me he was going to a funeral but would stand outside as it was the Chapel.  I told him that if I were the persons family I'd come out and tell him where to go as it's disrespectful and makes him look like an absolute *******.  I asked him that why is it that hel happily break other rules that the lodge have but stick to that one.  He couldn't answer it.

[Scotfotbawfan]

On 13/06/2022 at 17:20, Pans Jambo said:

Went to school with a good few of the “Star of the East” mob. 
Complete knuckle dragging head bangers still living in 1690.  
Just because they have a nice job, learn the drum or the flute and spend thousands on a clown outfit doesnt make them nice people. 
Im sure theres a few bank managers and doctors in the NRA and the KKK too. 

 

Star of the East with all due respect wouldn't be a band I'd put as a band of good playing ability, although that might have changed since the last time I saw them which was a few years ago.  The point I was making is in general is that people put alot of work and commitment into bands.  The last thing they want is some idiot in there ranks being a banger as it looks bad on the whole band.  Il admit that some bands aren't as strict as others and some don't put thr effort in.  And the end result is a shambles and tbh. You only get out of something what you put in.  Some of them just sound like a loud noise with cheap uniforms.  That's the sort of bands that you usually find the bangers in and you usually find they were in another band before but got kicked out. 

 

I will say aswell that in general I've found the people in the bands don't give a jot about religion tbh.  Infact I'd say the same about the people in the lodge. Most of them don't care about religion either.  If they did the churches would be packed every Sunday.  Its not about religion over here and more to do with football.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

On 11/06/2022 at 22:08, Led Tasso said:

 

I know naught of today's specific march other than what my spouse told me, who was there. As for it being about being pro-Protestantism, I will again repeat that my spouse is a Presbyterian pastor who is currently at New College studying for her Doctor of Ministry degree, and the march utterly turned her stomach. Beyond that I won't say about today's march, because that's all I know.

 

However, the quickest explanation of why it's an incredibly daft thing to do today is to point out that the marches originated in Northern Ireland to celebrate the victory of forces friendly to William of Orange over local, largely Catholic resistance. Some of the fiercest fighting happened in Derry, and as a celebration the Oranges started a  parade around the old city wall that had been defended. These marches often took on an explicitly anti-Catholic tone (because of course they did, anyway).

 

One such walk in Derry in 1972 encountered a peaceful protest by local Catholics designed to stop the march from going through an almost entirely Catholic neighborhood. Rather than divert the march because it's a daft and hateful tradition, the police came in and shot 26 people, killing 14. The immediate, direct result of this was the founding of the modern IRA and the beginning of the Troubles.

 

That anyone is out trying to re-start this utter nonsense and claiming it's just about celebrating Protestantism makes me utterly sick. You want to celebrate Protestantism, go the **** to church on Sunday morning.

 

EDIT: If it's just about celebrating Protestantism, what TF does that have to do with the Queen or the Union Jack?

 

Again as a Presbyterian deacon myself, let me say does it **** celebrate Protestantism as a whole. It celebrates British Christian nationalism. (Which I would personally call heretical and borderline demonic, but again, that's me.)

 

I've not been on here much in the last week and I'm just catching up with some reading. Kinda sorry I've had to bump this thread but having now read it all I'm surprised no one has pulled you up over the pish you are posting.

The paragraph I've highlighted shows your absolute ignorance of history in Northern Ireland, the march you mention was a Civil Rights march wanting better housing and jobs for Catholics organized (I think) by the SDLP. To the best of my knowledge the RUC didn't shoot anyone, young British Paras who may or may not had shots fired at them panicked and shot back. The modern IRA were already there and may or may have not have fired a shot to kick the killings off. The troubles actually started in 69 and the British Army were sent in to protect the Catholic population.

The paragraph above the highlighted one, more uninformed drivel, the fiercest fighting happened during the Siege of Derry in 1689 I think when the Protestant population were attacked by a Catholic Army and almost starved to death before British ships broke the boom across the Foyle to feed the townsfolk. To the best of my knowledge the Orange Order has never walked the walls of Derry but the Apprentice Boys do, so called after the Apprentice boys who snatched the keys of the city to lock the gates to prevent the Catholic Army entering, religious genocide was expected had they gained entry.

 

One or 2 points I've made might need tweaked a wee bit as I'm doing this off the top of my head and before anyone asks I'm not Orange but I do know a bit of history. Consider myself to be Pagan actually, we get virgins, Christians get Santa Claus, I win.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

22 minutes ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

I've not been on here much in the last week and I'm just catching up with some reading. Kinda sorry I've had to bump this thread but having now read it all I'm surprised no one has pulled you up over the pish you are posting.

The paragraph I've highlighted shows your absolute ignorance of history in Northern Ireland, the march you mention was a Civil Rights march wanting better housing and jobs for Catholics organized (I think) by the SDLP. To the best of my knowledge the RUC didn't shoot anyone, young British Paras who may or may not had shots fired at them panicked and shot back. The modern IRA were already there and may or may have not have fired a shot to kick the killings off. The troubles actually started in 69 and the British Army were sent in to protect the Catholic population.

The paragraph above the highlighted one, more uninformed drivel, the fiercest fighting happened during the Siege of Derry in 1689 I think when the Protestant population were attacked by a Catholic Army and almost starved to death before British ships broke the boom across the Foyle to feed the townsfolk. To the best of my knowledge the Orange Order has never walked the walls of Derry but the Apprentice Boys do, so called after the Apprentice boys who snatched the keys of the city to lock the gates to prevent the Catholic Army entering, religious genocide was expected had they gained entry.

 

One or 2 points I've made might need tweaked a wee bit as I'm doing this off the top of my head and before anyone asks I'm not Orange but I do know a bit of history. Consider myself to be Pagan actually, we get virgins, Christians get Santa Claus, I win.

Ahem! Check my reply to him.

 

I love it when Americans dive in to Irish history and get things wrong. It's a recurring pattern since the 20th century.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Geoff Kilpatrick

[Doctor FinnBarr]

3 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Ahem! Check my reply to him.

 

I love it when Americans dive in to Irish history and get things wrong. It's a recurring pattern since the 20th century.

Sorry Geoff, must have missed it.

Was trying to speed read up til page 5 when his post was on 3.

Edited June 16, 2022 by FinnBarr Saunders

[Ulysses]

On 12/06/2022 at 01:35, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

The 1798 rebellion started as a call to arms of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter and turned into naked sectarianism in the south. That caused the Union of 1801 and also caused Presbyterians to become pro-Union.

 

 

 

That's a take, but it wouldn't be universally accepted.  An alternative view is that two documented incidents took place in Wexford, each of which involved the massacre of about 100 "loyalists".  They were for the most part Protestants, though that's not why they were called "loyalists", and about 20% were Catholic.  Propaganda about those events was exploited by the London Government who were able to take action against southern Catholics in the rebel movement while not acting against their northern Presbyterian co-rebels - instead coaxing them into a "new Protestant Ascendancy" after the Act of Union.  In turn, that helped generate a myth which gained currency at the time of the centenary of the rebellion at the end of the 19th century, which was that Catholics were steadfastly rebelling for "faith and fatherland" and were disappointed and ultimately betrayed by the lacklustre and illusory support of "others" who couldn't be trusted when things got difficult.  Conservative catholic forces in the south were only too happy to promote that mythology, and it goes some way to explaining how a radical revolutionary endeavour in the south at the time of the Easter Rising was very quickly hijacked by socially conservative catholic forces who very effectively sidelined the lefties who had helped bring about independence.

 

And that's before I get to wondering why all Scotland's True Blue sons of Orange Ulster have 1690 as their banking PIN - when we all know they should really be using 1691.

[Ulysses]

@Led Tassoand @FinnBarr Saundersyou both might chance a read of the Wikipedia entry on Bloody Sunday.  It's not perfect by any means, but it illuminates quite a bit.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

That's a take, but it wouldn't be universally accepted.  An alternative view is that two documented incidents took place in Wexford, each of which involved the massacre of about 100 "loyalists".  They were for the most part Protestants, though that's not why they were called "loyalists", and about 20% were Catholic.  Propaganda about those events was exploited by the London Government who were able to take action against southern Catholics in the rebel movement while not acting against their northern Presbyterian co-rebels - instead coaxing them into a "new Protestant Ascendancy" after the Act of Union.  In turn, that helped generate a myth which gained currency at the time of the centenary of the rebellion at the end of the 19th century, which was that Catholics were steadfastly rebelling for "faith and fatherland" and were disappointed and ultimately betrayed by the lacklustre and illusory support of "others" who couldn't be trusted when things got difficult.  Conservative catholic forces in the south were only too happy to promote that mythology, and it goes some way to explaining how a radical revolutionary endeavour in the south at the time of the Easter Rising was very quickly hijacked by socially conservative catholic forces who very effectively sidelined the lefties who had helped bring about independence.

 

And that's before I get to wondering why all Scotland's True Blue sons of Orange Ulster have 1690 as their banking PIN - when we all know they should really be using 1691.

Indeed. I often wonder why Aughrim doesn't get the same interest as the Boyne given it was the more decisive battle. Maybe because it is west of the Shannon and no one cares?

 

PS I accept your nuance. I was keeping it high level for those who source Wiki as their history sources.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

On 11/06/2022 at 20:35, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

 

Loving your history sources, which are pretty much bollocks.

 

FYI, the Orange Order was founded in Loughgall in Co Armagh in 1795 after the Battle of the Diamond after the Peep O'Day boys (Protestants) fought the Catholic 'Defenders'. Nothing to do with marching around Derry's Walls.

 

As for Protestantism, the Orange Order started as an Anglican organisation. Presbyterians in Ulster, in Antrim and Down where Presbyterianism is still the main religion, were actually very republican at that stage and indeed were at the forefront of the United Irishmen revolution, having been inspired by the American revolution and Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish forming a majority of the draftees of the Declaration of Independence. The 1798 rebellion started as a call to arms of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter and turned into naked sectarianism in the south. That caused the Union of 1801 and also caused Presbyterians to become pro-Union.

 

Orangeism became the expression of that in reaction to the push for Irish Home Rule in the 19th century. Indeed, it was banned numerous times in that time by Dublin Castle. It was taken to Scotland as an outflow of the Industrial Revolution in the Belfast and Glasgow shipyards.

 

I'm sorry I haven't replied to this sooner. I'm solo parenting these two weeks as, as mentioned, the spouse is in Auld Reekie at New College at the moment. So I was staying out of this until I had a chance to catch up. Which, unfortunately, I still haven't read the full thread yet.

 

I realize it was confusingly worded but I did not mean to imply at all that the Orange Order was started in Derry, but rather that the Oranges were the ones who started the march around Derry's walls.  So in a sense, a lot of your correction above is to a point I wasn't making, however I clearly bolloxed a lot of facts because I am frankly mentally fried this week.

 

I obviously scrambled Bloody Sunday and the Battle of the Bogside. Not sure how that got fudged in my head but that was clearly a mistake on my part. That much I should have known. What I also appear to have gotten wrong is that I had been under the impression that the Battle of the Bogside directly arose in response to an Orange Walk. As I go back and check sources, I see that anti-Catholic violence relating to Orange Walks had been a major cause of the erection of barricades but that the march which I had in mind, which immediately precipitated the riot, was organized by the Apprentice Boys and not the Orange Order.

 

None of this I realize is at all news to you but I at least try to put in an effort to not talk shite, but talk shite I did and I want to put my hand up for the moment.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

I'm sorry I haven't replied to this sooner. I'm solo parenting these two weeks as, as mentioned, the spouse is in Auld Reekie at New College at the moment. So I was staying out of this until I had a chance to catch up. Which, unfortunately, I still haven't read the full thread yet.

 

I realize it was confusingly worded but I did not mean to imply at all that the Orange Order was started in Derry, but rather that the Oranges were the ones who started the march around Derry's walls.  So in a sense, a lot of your correction above is to a point I wasn't making, however I clearly bolloxed a lot of facts because I am frankly mentally fried this week.

 

I obviously scrambled Bloody Sunday and the Battle of the Bogside. Not sure how that got fudged in my head but that was clearly a mistake on my part. That much I should have known. What I also appear to have gotten wrong is that I had been under the impression that the Battle of the Bogside directly arose in response to an Orange Walk. As I go back and check sources, I see that anti-Catholic violence relating to Orange Walks had been a major cause of the erection of barricades but that the march which I had in mind, which immediately precipitated the riot, was organized by the Apprentice Boys and not the Orange Order.

 

None of this I realize is at all news to you but I at least try to put in an effort to not talk shite, but talk shite I did and I want to put my hand up for the moment.

All good. What actually encouraged me to reply was your emphasis on Presbyterianism in your posts. As Uly said, and rightly pointed out some of the nuances in my high level post above, Irish history with regard to religion is far more complex than is generally portrayed. For example, it is often said that England planted "the Protestants" in Ulster when England actually planted people across most of Ireland, except Connacht. A lot of the previous plantations were judged to have "failed" because the populations ended up assimilating with the Irish. The Ulster plantation was different for many reasons but one key one was the Scots planters in Antrim and Down were actually private and brought over people who were fiercely religious such as the Covenanters, some of whom moved on to settle in the US (which was also a plantation of sorts by the same logic). Having that basis of difference being as strong as it was is part of the reason why there has never been the same kind of assimilation as the rest of the island.

 

Going back to the Orange Order, it is its own worst enemy in how it is portrayed. My maternal grandfather was an Orangeman and he was actually born in an Orange Hall and so events like The Twelfth where I grew up were a huge family occasion and the parades were all very localised. It is a political organisation and there are always speeches and religious services at the demonstration field but most of the members don't care. The key point though is that most of the members who join it don't do so to be "anti Catholic", at least not where I grew up. They join it for familial reasons (at this point, I will say here that I never joined it but I have even carried the banner on the Twelfth many years ago). So when it gets involved in things like Drumcree, irrespective of the rights and wrongs of marches like those, it is night and day in comparison to marches in mid-Antrim, for example. Should it have a raison d'etre in this day and age? Probably not but every political contention actually gives its membership a boost at a time when its membership was slowly dying off.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

2 hours ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

I've not been on here much in the last week and I'm just catching up with some reading. Kinda sorry I've had to bump this thread but having now read it all I'm surprised no one has pulled you up over the pish you are posting.

The paragraph I've highlighted shows your absolute ignorance of history in Northern Ireland, the march you mention was a Civil Rights march wanting better housing and jobs for Catholics organized (I think) by the SDLP. To the best of my knowledge the RUC didn't shoot anyone, young British Paras who may or may not had shots fired at them panicked and shot back. The modern IRA were already there and may or may have not have fired a shot to kick the killings off. The troubles actually started in 69 and the British Army were sent in to protect the Catholic population.

The paragraph above the highlighted one, more uninformed drivel, the fiercest fighting happened during the Siege of Derry in 1689 I think when the Protestant population were attacked by a Catholic Army and almost starved to death before British ships broke the boom across the Foyle to feed the townsfolk. To the best of my knowledge the Orange Order has never walked the walls of Derry but the Apprentice Boys do, so called after the Apprentice boys who snatched the keys of the city to lock the gates to prevent the Catholic Army entering, religious genocide was expected had they gained entry.

 

One or 2 points I've made might need tweaked a wee bit as I'm doing this off the top of my head and before anyone asks I'm not Orange but I do know a bit of history. Consider myself to be Pagan actually, we get virgins, Christians get Santa Claus, I win.

 

I just posted a reply to Geoff, but I absolutely screwed up many facts and regret it. I can't remember when exactly I posted that but I might have had a beer and I've been very tired for a week now. Yes, I managed to swap both Bloody Sunday for the Battle of the Bogside and the Orange Walks with the Apprentice Boys. I absolutely regret the error. However, as mentioned above, the Orange Walks and the violence associated with them (particularly on the 12th in Dungiven) were not unrelated to the Battle of the Bogside, and hence were partially responsible for the violence that began the Troubles.

 

Regarding the Siege of Derry, my phrasing was also pretty hamfisted, but again while it was the Apprentice Boys march celebrating that and not the Orange Order, the Siege was part of the Jacobite/Williamite conflict, and so has a fairly close connection to the principles of the Orange, for obvious reasons.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

On 11/06/2022 at 17:50, jonesy said:

You don't, but some do. And some feel that banning it would be a restriction their rights of freedom of expression and congregation. 

 

There's a great deal of folk who find organised religion - no idea what denomination you are, BTW - and the power structures that built and maintain it, to be reprehensible while others find the sense of community and support it creates invaluable. Having lived in small town America, I've seen how the churches can be a force for both good and bad over there and here. 

 

Live and let live, no?

 

I tend to be pretty deeply American when it comes to things like banning marches, in that you go out of your way to not ban things if you can help it. Trumpism is unfortunately making us rethink that as events like Aug 11/12 in Charlottesville (which in many ways was a precursor to the 6 January violence), but still, I wouldn't support banning the marches. I would much rather see them stop. though.

 

There are multiple other threads for debating religion, and I've spilled plenty of digital ink there before. I'll never argue with a statement that certain forms of religion can be and has been absolutely toxic, and in many ways I'm still in church to try to make it better and less harmful from within. I find the "organized religion" category pretty useless personally, as to me most of the problems with "organized religion" aren't universal to all or even most religions or sects, nor do most atheists or agnostics seem to be immune to having those same problems. But that's for another thread . . .

 

What really gets me about the Orange Walks business is the claim that it's about Protestantism, when as SCG points out, for him it's about the monarchy and not religion at all, as as Geoff notes, it's often just someone's local community hall. In the US it isn't Orange Walks I worry about, but reactionary Evangelicals who parade around claiming that they are the sole exponents of "Christian values" when what they're expounding is often in pretty direct violation of some of my deepest held theological beliefs.  So when I see the Orange Order stuff, it's a similar reaction.

 

But the most I'm going to do about it is probably rant about it on a football forum . . .

[Watt-Zeefuik]

21 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

All good. What actually encouraged me to reply was your emphasis on Presbyterianism in your posts. As Uly said, and rightly pointed out some of the nuances in my high level post above, Irish history with regard to religion is far more complex than is generally portrayed. For example, it is often said that England planted "the Protestants" in Ulster when England actually planted people across most of Ireland, except Connacht. A lot of the previous plantations were judged to have "failed" because the populations ended up assimilating with the Irish. The Ulster plantation was different for many reasons but one key one was the Scots planters in Antrim and Down were actually private and brought over people who were fiercely religious such as the Covenanters, some of whom moved on to settle in the US (which was also a plantation of sorts by the same logic). Having that basis of difference being as strong as it was is part of the reason why there has never been the same kind of assimilation as the rest of the island.

 

Going back to the Orange Order, it is its own worst enemy in how it is portrayed. My maternal grandfather was an Orangeman and he was actually born in an Orange Hall and so events like The Twelfth where I grew up were a huge family occasion and the parades were all very localised. It is a political organisation and there are always speeches and religious services at the demonstration field but most of the members don't care. The key point though is that most of the members who join it don't do so to be "anti Catholic", at least not where I grew up. They join it for familial reasons (at this point, I will say here that I never joined it but I have even carried the banner on the Twelfth many years ago). So when it gets involved in things like Drumcree, irrespective of the rights and wrongs of marches like those, it is night and day in comparison to marches in mid-Antrim, for example. Should it have a raison d'etre in this day and age? Probably not but every political contention actually gives its membership a boost at a time when its membership was slowly dying off.

 

Cheers.

 

The various nuances of the numerous religious sects in Scotland and Ireland are confusing and it doesn't help that even otherwise decent historical sources, particularly those widely available in the US, flatten them beyond recognition. Personally, I have numerous ancestors both from the Ulster Scots and from lowland Scots Protestants who were Jacobites in 1945. The flattened historicism that surrounds all this ("the Jacobites were Catholics," etc.) makes this all incredibly confusing until you start teasing out the nuances between the Covenenters and the Independents and the Resolutioners and the Protestors.

 

The emphasis I meant to make on Presbyterianism was less about associating it with the Orange Order stuff and more about a personal analogy, and that rhetorical point didn't really come off the way I intended either. The point I was trying to make was that IMO when an institution like the Orange Lodges, or like the various Presbyterian churches, is trying to move forward, one can't just sweep past associations under the rug and say, "ah, there's bad apples in every bunch." I think it requires a specific reckoning with the past. But anyway . . .

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

15 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Cheers.

 

The various nuances of the numerous religious sects in Scotland and Ireland are confusing and it doesn't help that even otherwise decent historical sources, particularly those widely available in the US, flatten them beyond recognition. Personally, I have numerous ancestors both from the Ulster Scots and from lowland Scots Protestants who were Jacobites in 1945. The flattened historicism that surrounds all this ("the Jacobites were Catholics," etc.) makes this all incredibly confusing until you start teasing out the nuances between the Covenenters and the Independents and the Resolutioners and the Protestors.

 

The emphasis I meant to make on Presbyterianism was less about associating it with the Orange Order stuff and more about a personal analogy, and that rhetorical point didn't really come off the way I intended either. The point I was trying to make was that IMO when an institution like the Orange Lodges, or like the various Presbyterian churches, is trying to move forward, one can't just sweep past associations under the rug and say, "ah, there's bad apples in every bunch." I think it requires a specific reckoning with the past. But anyway . . .

I don't disagree on your "reckoning" point necessarily. The problem with "reckoning" here is that it drifts into whataboutery.

[Sarah O]

The OO are excellent. 

 

A great advert for Scottish independence.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

3 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Cheers.

 

The various nuances of the numerous religious sects in Scotland and Ireland are confusing and it doesn't help that even otherwise decent historical sources, particularly those widely available in the US, flatten them beyond recognition. Personally, I have numerous ancestors both from the Ulster Scots and from lowland Scots Protestants who were Jacobites in 1945. The flattened historicism that surrounds all this ("the Jacobites were Catholics," etc.) makes this all incredibly confusing until you start teasing out the nuances between the Covenenters and the Independents and the Resolutioners and the Protestors.

 

The emphasis I meant to make on Presbyterianism was less about associating it with the Orange Order stuff and more about a personal analogy, and that rhetorical point didn't really come off the way I intended either. The point I was trying to make was that IMO when an institution like the Orange Lodges, or like the various Presbyterian churches, is trying to move forward, one can't just sweep past associations under the rug and say, "ah, there's bad apples in every bunch." I think it requires a specific reckoning with the past. But anyway . . .

 

FFS

[Ron Burgundy]

Scotland is still a place stuck in the dark ages.

For balance that wee scrote Martin Compston was caught on stage at a Celtic convention in America singing along to a song that clearly had the lyrics changed to IRA. His reply was that he sang the real words and that if folk wanted to change them to IRA then he's not the police.

 

What a progressive country we live in.

[pablo]

1 hour ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Scotland is still a place stuck in the dark ages.

For balance that wee scrote Martin Compston was caught on stage at a Celtic convention in America singing along to a song that clearly had the lyrics changed to IRA. His reply was that he sang the real words and that if folk wanted to change them to IRA then he's not the police.

 

What a progressive country we live in.

 

I sometimes wonder how much of a thing sectarianism really is in Scotland?

 

If I wasn't a football fan I am not sure if I'd even be aware of it tbh.

 

Never seen a Orange Walk in my life. Totally get that it's not exactly a big thing in Edinburgh's suburbs. 

[Ron Burgundy]

5 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

I sometimes wonder how much of a thing sectarianism really is in Scotland?

 

If I wasn't a football fan I am not sure if I'd even be aware of it tbh.

 

Never seen a Orange Walk in my life. Totally get that it's not exactly a big thing in Edinburgh's suburbs. 

Sectarianism is a much bigger problem in Scotland than say racism, homophobia or transphobic issues IMO.

Yet we here virtually nothing from the Government or the media condemning it.

[Unknown user]

51 minutes ago, pablo said:

I sometimes wonder how much of a thing sectarianism really is in Scotland?

 

If I wasn't a football fan I am not sure if I'd even be aware of it tbh.

 

Never seen a Orange Walk in my life. Totally get that it's not exactly a big thing in Edinburgh's suburbs. 

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Scotland is still a place stuck in the dark ages.

For balance that wee scrote Martin Compston was caught on stage at a Celtic convention in America singing along to a song that clearly had the lyrics changed to IRA. His reply was that he sang the real words and that if folk wanted to change them to IRA then he's not the police.

 

What a progressive country we live in.

Politicians from all sides don’t have the guts to do anything.

[Malinga the Swinga]

They should immediately stop segregation of schools. Teaching them differences at a young age, just so their church can get some new members.

If you believe in the 'magic man', then your a moron, plain and simple.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

1 hour ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

They should immediately stop segregation of schools. Teaching them differences at a young age, just so their church can get some new members.

If you believe in the 'magic man', then your a moron, plain and simple.

 

Even now, we have Addiewell Primary and St Thomas', 2 buildings one playground. So they can play together but not get taught together?

[chuck berrys hairline]

9 minutes ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

Even now, we have Addiewell Primary and St Thomas', 2 buildings one playground. So they can play together but not get taught together?

Im sure if the numbers aren't great they mix they classes 😒 thats what happened when my step kids were there defeats the whole purpose! They were the only Catholic school i knew that had a half day friday too.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

1 minute ago, chuck berrys hairline said:

Im sure if the numbers aren't great they mix they classes 😒 thats what happened when my step kids were there defeats the whole purpose! They were the only Catholic school i knew that had a half day friday too.

 

Every single school in West Lothian finishes at half 12 on a Friday to allow teachers to have a long weekend every week.

[Dennis Denuto]

1 hour ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

They should immediately stop segregation of schools. Teaching them differences at a young age, just so their church can get some new members.

If you believe in the 'magic man', then your a moron, plain and simple.

I'm not sure I get the argument that a bunch of people marching the streets and banging their drums about the Queen being a protestant is a good place to begin the argument of getting rid of Catholic schools TBH.

 

"These Protestants are a problem!", "Right, we better ban the Catholics then".

 

That said I do find state funded religious schools a strange concept.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

2 minutes ago, Dennis Denuto said:

I'm not sure I get the argument that a bunch of people marching the streets and banging their drums about the Queen being a protestant is a good place to begin the argument of getting rid of Catholic schools TBH.

 

"These Protestants are a problem!", "Right, we better ban the Catholics then".

 

That said I do find state funded religious schools a strange concept.

 

Its a very strange concept, all schools/schooling are and should be funded by the state but religious teachings should be down to the family or church.

[Ron Burgundy]

14 minutes ago, chuck berrys hairline said:

Im sure if the numbers aren't great they mix they classes 😒 thats what happened when my step kids were there defeats the whole purpose! They were the only Catholic school i knew that had a half day friday too.

St Ninians at Restalrig have a half day Friday.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

5 hours ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

FFS

Lol you know what I meant.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

1 minute ago, Led Tasso said:

Lol you know what I meant.

No!

[Malinga the Swinga]

9 minutes ago, Dennis Denuto said:

I'm not sure I get the argument that a bunch of people marching the streets and banging their drums about the Queen being a protestant is a good place to begin the argument of getting rid of Catholic schools TBH.

 

"These Protestants are a problem!", "Right, we better ban the Catholics then".

 

That said I do find state funded religious schools a strange concept.

I don't differentiate between religions. Catholic/Protestant/Muslim/Hindu/Bhudist or whatever, it's all complete bollocks designed to keep the proles in order and the religious leaders rolling in cash 

Anyone who believes in creationism, from whatever made up kiddies book you choose, is a dumb ****, end of story.

 

[Dennis Denuto]

4 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

I don't differentiate between religions. Catholic/Protestant/Muslim/Hindu/Bhudist or whatever, it's all complete bollocks designed to keep the proles in order and the religious leaders rolling in cash 

Anyone who believes in creationism, from whatever made up kiddies book you choose, is a dumb ****, end of story.

 

That is very tolerant of you

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 minutes ago, Dennis Denuto said:

That is very tolerant of you

No problem.

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

I don't differentiate between religions. Catholic/Protestant/Muslim/Hindu/Bhudist or whatever, it's all complete bollocks designed to keep the proles in order and the religious leaders rolling in cash 

Anyone who believes in creationism, from whatever made up kiddies book you choose, is a dumb ****, end of story.

 

Me too. All of them can GTF with their usually hate filled nonsense . Not the slightest interest in any religions. And anyone who attempts to throw it down my throat...can GTF.  Its just not happening.  Its been one of the greatest cons in history to keep people down. The greatest in fact.