Orange Walk EH today

[McGlynn The Money]

1 hour ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

They could **** off to church every Sunday and keep their hate-filled, attention-seeking needy shite of the streets. 

 

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

How's that going to GIRU catholics in their own homes?

 

 

Probably never go to church except weddings and funerals. Hypocritical tossers.

 

**** all to do with celebrating their heritage and all about triumphalism, based on a warped version of history.

[doctor jambo]

40 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Any group of people should be able to march , even if their views are reprehensible, in a democracy . 

I disagree , allowing this just continues the nonsense.

grooming the next generation of heed the baws.

Ban them and kids can study them in history, which is where it should be consigned forever.

It should be back there with racism , homophobia and all the other shite we now find embarrassing.

[Locky]

Went to Snax for lunch with the missus a few hours ago. What a ****ing nightmare trying to get round and parked nearby. All the buses diverted round Melville Drive too plus further road closures down Holyrood.

 

Not really wanting to get involved in the politics of it but a total unnecessary waste of time if you ask me.

[Placid Casual]

1 hour ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

They could **** off to church every Sunday and keep their hate-filled, attention-seeking needy shite of the streets. 

Exactly this.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

2 hours ago, jonesy said:

 

Not quite sure what those who feel proud of their orange/Proddy heritage are mean to do, otherwise? I come from good kafflik stock myself, but would be disappointed if these people were not allowed to parade within acceptable guidelines.

 

We're a diverse country and marginalising or demonising any parts of it is only going to lead to resentment and backlash.

 

Some of us just go to church (and try to root out all the imperialism and colonialism and nonsense while we're there), celebrate the achievements in public education, make the place as welcoming to those who are suffering, and live peaceably with our neighbors.

 

I absolutely do not need a ****ing Orange parade that celebrates putting the boot on the necks of others.

[Weakened Offender]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

And, pray tell, how are they meant to do that when Sky keep forcing them to have to head round to their local (T)RFCSC for the pre-match build up live from Dingwall at 11.30 on a Sunday morning?

 

Fair point. If they were as staunch as they make themselves out to be there wouldn't be a choice to be made though. 😉

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

How's that going to GIRU catholics in their own homes?

It doesn't but that's the whole idea. Actually celebrating their 'heritage' wouldn't occur to the kwik save version of the master race. That gets lost in the intimidating kafflicks part. 

Sadly, because of an accident of birth when I was wee I was pretty much coerced into watching that shite. The pricks were actually  rewarded for bursting their drums outside the Chapel. 

Bad enough in 1982 but in 2022, Ffs? 

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

I disagree , allowing this just continues the nonsense.

grooming the next generation of heed the baws.

Ban them and kids can study them in history, which is where it should be consigned forever.

It should be back there with racism , homophobia and all the other shite we now find embarrassing.

Spot on. Strange that in 2022 Scotland has more or less.accepted that racism, homophobia etc is unacceptable and even if people still carry those views they know know that expressing them publicly generally has consequences. That is credit to all parties who have governed since devolution. 

However, despite this particular administration's decent record of advancing a tolerant society they absolutely will not tackle sectarianism and  both disgusting sides know it. It is one of the few things and possibly only thing about Scotland I am genuinely ashamed of. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by i wish jj was my dad

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Spot on. Strange that in 2022 Scotland has more or less.accepted that racism, homophobia etc is unacceptable and even if people still carry those views they know know that expressing them publicly generally has consequences. That is credit to all parties who have governed since devolution. 

However, despite this particular administration's decent record of advancing a tolerant society they absolutely will not tackle sectarianism and  other disgusting sides know it. It is one of the few things and possibly only thing about Scotland I am genuinely ashamed of. 

Excellent post.

[Hmfc1965]

1 hour ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Some of us just go to church (and try to root out all the imperialism and colonialism and nonsense while we're there), celebrate the achievements in public education, make the place as welcoming to those who are suffering, and live peaceably with our neighbors.

 

I absolutely do not need a ****ing Orange parade that celebrates putting the boot on the necks of others.

I doubt there's too many down your way TBF.

The consistent castigating of quite a substantial group of people,  based on the poster's own prejudiced assumptions,  does nobody any favours 

[Hmfc1965]

7 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Spot on. Strange that in 2022 Scotland has more or less.accepted that racism, homophobia etc is unacceptable and even if people still carry those views they know know that expressing them publicly generally has consequences. That is credit to all parties who have governed since devolution. 

However, despite this particular administration's decent record of advancing a tolerant society they absolutely will not tackle sectarianism and  both disgusting sides know it. It is one of the few things and possibly only thing about Scotland I am genuinely ashamed of. 

The problem is when does  celebrating a culture become sectarianism?

That applies to Republicans as well.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Hmfc1965

[Tazio]

4 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

The problem is when does  celebrating a culture become sectarianism?

That applies to Republicans as well.

The "celebrating a culture" excuse is a becoming a bit of a tired excuse. Are Orange Walks celebrating their own culture when they deliberately stop outside catholic chapels? Or are the idiots following the march doing anything more than using it as a day to goad others? 

[i wish jj was my dad]

13 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

The problem is when does  celebrating a culture become sectarianism?

That applies to Republicans as well.

When people use it to intimidate the people they see as not part of their culture. I highlighted intimidating behaviour towards Roman Catholics in the 80s. It still happens. 

For balance, that applies to both sides who are every bit as bad as each other as dar as I can see. Plenty examples of the other shower of cocks behaving in a similar way. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by i wish jj was my dad

[Nucky Thompson]

Scotland is a bigoted, backward country. 

Orangemen, republicans and nationalists marching about our streets full of hatred 

 

It's much more respectable in England.

I saw the Coldstream Guards and army veterans marching in Berwick a few times.

Great atmosphere with no hatred in the air 

[Hmfc1965]

3 minutes ago, Tazio said:

The "celebrating a culture" excuse is a becoming a bit of a tired excuse. Are Orange Walks celebrating their own culture when they deliberately stop outside catholic chapels? Or are the idiots following the march doing anything more than using it as a day to goad others? 

The people following the march may be problematic in part. The march itself is in a different category. 

The fact is there is now a particular disdain for any expression of Orange or related culture. 

Usually from people who would otherwise proclaim how tolerant they are 

I doubt it will be too long until someone compares them to the Nazis.

[Hmfc1965]

2 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

When people use it to intimidate the people they see as not part of their culture. 

That applies to both sides who are every bit as bad as each other. 

And did you see that today?

[i wish jj was my dad]

5 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

And did you see that today?

I wasn't there today so no. But it isn't hard to find a very recent example of a priest being abused in the 2020s in much the same way. It was well reported. Without Googling I am sure it wasn't an isolated incident and I have certainly heard these 'traditionalist' types boasting of similar behaviour in my earshot. 

I'll take your word for it that today's march went off very peaceably and all in attendance were an example of tolerance and respect of all views and cultures. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by i wish jj was my dad

[Hmfc1965]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I wasn't there today so no. But it isn't hard to find a very recent example of a priest being abused in the 2020s in much the same way. It was well reported. Without Googling I am sure it wasn't an isolated incident and I have certainly heard these 'traditionalist' types boasting of similar behaviour in my earshot. 

Again you're talking about the hangers-on. 

Yes there is an example from the 2020s  it was condemned by everyone,  including the organisers. 

[The Gorgie]

18 minutes ago, Tazio said:

The "celebrating a culture" excuse is a becoming a bit of a tired excuse. Are Orange Walks celebrating their own culture when they deliberately stop outside catholic chapels? Or are the idiots following the march doing anything more than using it as a day to goad others? 

Not once did we stop outside a chapel today. There are arseholes in the OL that I can't deny, I blame the bands actually. Ironically the first time I heard the word fenian today was in a hearts club, hours after the parade. However today passed off as a peaceful celebration of the queens jubilee and im glad there was no trouble from either side.

[colinmorewasgash]

Funnily enough I saw some today bobbing about in edinburgh and having watched t2 trainspotting last night all I could think about was scene when they sing the No more Catholics song  as renton and sickboy nick the credit cards with 1690 pins lol running out the busy bee pub in saughton mains. My old grandad used to take me them to watch when they paraded up leith walk when I was a kid and He was a hibee.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

46 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

I doubt there's too many down your way TBF.

The consistent castigating of quite a substantial group of people,  based on the poster's own prejudiced assumptions,  does nobody any favours 

 

By "too many down [my] way" do you mean Orange parades or people with distinctly Protestant/Orange/Scots Presbyterian heritage? Because if it's the latter that's not true at all.

 

The Orange parades in particular don't happen in the US largely because the Orange "heritage" or whatever comes out of a peculiar link between Protestantism and monarchism, and while there's a fair few in the US who like to watch the Queen a bit on the TV, actual monarchism is effectively non-existent, even among Episcopal (Anglican) Church USA types.

 

Which is kind of the point—the Orangers aren't just about being Protestant, it's about reinforcing a hegemonic Protestant state. I'm obviously okay with being Presbyterian given that I'm married to a Presbyterian clergywoman, and if folk like the monarchism that's politics, but it's the merger of the two that I find ridiculous from as detached a perspective I can maintain. (From a strictly personal and ecclesiastical perspective I find it profoundly offensive and unholy, but again, that's my own ecclesiology and not a basis for keeping people from walking around in silly parades I don't happen to like.)

 

Where it crosses over into what I think should be publicly condemned is just how often, and it still is far too often, it turns quickly to virulent anti-Catholicism. I can't say from personal experience but it always seems like the ones marching in the walks will say it's just about their own heritage, then go off to Ibrox and sing Billy Boys and say it's not sectarian, it's just about Celtic, and pretend that the two aren't connected.

 

28 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

The people following the march may be problematic in part. The march itself is in a different category. 

The fact is there is now a particular disdain for any expression of Orange or related culture. 

Usually from people who would otherwise proclaim how tolerant they are 

I doubt it will be too long until someone compares them to the Nazis.

 

No need to compare Orange folks to Nazis, it's plenty to point to the paramilitary violence enacted by people explicitly doing so under the Orange sash.

[Irufushi]

Terrific day was had by all . 

[Hmfc1965]

15 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

By "too many down [my] way" do you mean Orange parades or people with distinctly Protestant/Orange/Scots Presbyterian heritage? Because if it's the latter that's not true at all.

 

The Orange parades in particular don't happen in the US largely because the Orange "heritage" or whatever comes out of a peculiar link between Protestantism and monarchism, and while there's a fair few in the US who like to watch the Queen a bit on the TV, actual monarchism is effectively non-existent, even among Episcopal (Anglican) Church USA types.

 

Which is kind of the point—the Orangers aren't just about being Protestant, it's about reinforcing a hegemonic Protestant state. I'm obviously okay with being Presbyterian given that I'm married to a Presbyterian clergywoman, and if folk like the monarchism that's politics, but it's the merger of the two that I find ridiculous from as detached a perspective I can maintain. (From a strictly personal and ecclesiastical perspective I find it profoundly offensive and unholy, but again, that's my own ecclesiology and not a basis for keeping people from walking around in silly parades I don't happen to like.)

 

Where it crosses over into what I think should be publicly condemned is just how often, and it still is far too often, it turns quickly to virulent anti-Catholicism. I can't say from personal experience but it always seems like the ones marching in the walks will say it's just about their own heritage, then go off to Ibrox and sing Billy Boys and say it's not sectarian, it's just about Celtic, and pretend that the two aren't connected.

 

 

No need to compare Orange folks to Nazis, it's plenty to point to the paramilitary violence enacted by people explicitly doing so under the Orange sash.

I meant Orange parades. I'm well aware a lot of people there have Scots/Irish/Presbyterian heritage. 

It would be interesting to know given that what your personal experience of Orange parades is.

And by the way there were no explicitly Orange paramilitaries. 

Do you mean the UVF and UDA?

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Just now, Hmfc1965 said:

I meant Orange parades. I'm well aware a lot of people there have Scots/Irish/Presbyterian heritage. 

It would be interesting to know given that what your personal experience of Orange parades is.

And by the way there were no explicitly Orange paramilitaries. 

Do you mean the UVF and UDA?

 

 

You could lump them in too but I was more thinking of the original Billy Boys of Billy Fullerton. Paramilitaries is perhaps too strong a word—perhaps I should just call them brownshirts since Fullerton himself was a member of the fascists.

[Hmfc1965]

3 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

You could lump them in too but I was more thinking of the original Billy Boys of Billy Fullerton. Paramilitaries is perhaps too strong a word—perhaps I should just call them brownshirts since Fullerton himself was a member of the fascists.

And nothing to do with the Orange Lodge. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Just now, Hmfc1965 said:

And nothing to do with the Orange Lodge. 

 

The Billy Boys were explicitly named after William of Orange. Are we going to pretend that Orange "heritage" starts and stops at the doors of the lodge?  Shall I also, for my own personal comfort, pretend that Presbyterianism (albeit a very different wing than the one I'm attached to but still) is totally unconnected to vile right wing parties like the DUP?

[ri Alban]

2 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

And nothing to do with the Orange Lodge. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

A followup: I obviously don't believe that any institution that has done wrong in the past cannot do good in the future, as I'm in the Presbyterian church and, among other things, our minor but still very real past involvement in the "Indian Education" schools would be enough to turf me out for good if I didn't believe in institutional transformation.

 

But if the institution digs in on all of its worst instincts and habits? Nah, **** it.

[Hmfc1965]

6 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

The Billy Boys were explicitly named after William of Orange. Are we going to pretend that Orange "heritage" starts and stops at the doors of the lodge?  Shall I also, for my own personal comfort, pretend that Presbyterianism (albeit a very different wing than the one I'm attached to but still) is totally unconnected to vile right wing parties like the DUP?

Orange heritage does yes.

Presbyterian/ Protestant history does not.

You may find them equally distasteful but a fraternal organisation is not the same thing as a Glasgow street gang. 

 

[Hmfc1965]

7 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

A followup: I obviously don't believe that any institution that has done wrong in the past cannot do good in the future, as I'm in the Presbyterian church and, among other things, our minor but still very real past involvement in the "Indian Education" schools would be enough to turf me out for good if I didn't believe in institutional transformation.

 

But if the institution digs in on all of its worst instincts and habits? Nah, **** it.

I would hope no institution would. Every single one has issues in the past. 

[Hmfc1965]

11 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Laugh all you like. They weren't. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Just now, Hmfc1965 said:

Orange heritage does yes.

Presbyterian/ Protestant history does not.

You may find them equally distasteful but a fraternal organisation is not the same thing as a Glasgow street gang. 

 

 

The Glasgow street gang explicitly associated itself with Orange heritage. To deny this is to be a flat earther.

 

If the Orange lodges showed the least bit of interest in interrogating their history, their links to landed gentry politics and land dispossession, their cheek-by-jowl closeness to British fascism, and the long litany of truly rancid anti-Catholic acts committed, I would give them the time of day and congratulate them on their introspection. After all, they weren't all bad (https://www.jstor.org/stable/44582209).

 

Show me three solid examples of that happening within what you would call truly Orange institutions, and I'll take it all back.

[ri Alban]

I have many mates in the orange Lodge and everyone of them are bigots to the core. And if you break the walk they attack you. Filth. 

 

 

 

[ri Alban]

If I was a Maddie Jihadi. : 🤔

[BlueRiver]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I have many mates in the orange Lodge and everyone of them are bigots to the core. And if you break the walk they attack you. Filth. 

 

 

 

Why are you mates with them then? 

[Hmfc1965]

Just now, Led Tasso said:

 

The Glasgow street gang explicitly associated itself with Orange heritage. To deny this is to be a flat earther.

 

If the Orange lodges showed the least bit of interest in interrogating their history, their links to landed gentry politics and land dispossession, their cheek-by-jowl closeness to British fascism, and the long litany of truly rancid anti-Catholic acts committed, I would give them the time of day and congratulate them on their introspection. After all, they weren't all bad (https://www.jstor.org/stable/44582209).

 

Show me three solid examples of that happening within what you would call truly Orange institutions, and I'll take it all back.

They may have associated themselves with the Orange Lodge. 

That doesn't mean they were in any way representative of it.

I'd agree about the landed gentry's involvement: arguably this was the first time the (Anglican) gentry treated Presbyterians as equals, I suspect in an attempt to divide and rule.

That said things move on.

I'm unaware of any real links between Orangeism and British Fascism, and would expect the opposite to be the case. 

[Hmfc1965]

5 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I have many mates in the orange Lodge and everyone of them are bigots to the core. And if you break the walk they attack you. Filth. 

 

 

 

You have some mates  

Personally I'm not friendly with people I regard as filth.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Just now, Hmfc1965 said:

They may have associated themselves with the Orange Lodge. 

That doesn't mean they were in any way representative of it.

I'd agree about the landed gentry's involvement: arguably this was the first time the (Anglican) gentry treated Presbyterians as equals, I suspect in an attempt to divide and rule.

That said things move on.

I'm unaware of any real links between Orangeism and British Fascism, and would expect the opposite to be the case. 

 

You don't think that if someone went digging through what boxes of letters, records, meeting minutes, and archives may exist that we wouldn't find out that prominent members of the Oranges weren't hiring, bankrolling, and granting protection to the Billy Boys and other similar but less well known gangs? Because that's how you find this kind of thing. Over here it's how we found out that locally renowned philanthropist Julian Shakespeare Carr was an open advocate of particularly brutal segregationist violence.

 

As to the links between Orangeism and Fascism, this is paywalled unfortunately and I don't have an affiliation at the moment to get a new copy, but IIRC this discusses it: https://www.jstor.org/stable/30006774

[Weakened Offender]

1 hour ago, Hmfc1965 said:

The people following the march may be problematic in part. The march itself is in a different category. 

The fact is there is now a particular disdain for any expression of Orange or related culture. 

Usually from people who would otherwise proclaim how tolerant they are 

I doubt it will be too long until someone compares them to the Nazis.

 

The disdain (try utter ****ing contempt 😉)  shown towards these marches is because most (tolerant) people see them for what they are, not what they claim to be. 

[Unknown user]

31 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

The Billy Boys were explicitly named after William of Orange.

 

No they weren't, they were named after Billy Fullerton

[Hmfc1965]

Just now, Led Tasso said:

 

You don't think that if someone went digging through what boxes of letters, records, meeting minutes, and archives may exist that we wouldn't find out that prominent members of the Oranges weren't hiring, bankrolling, and granting protection to the Billy Boys and other similar but less well known gangs? Because that's how you find this kind of thing. Over here it's how we found out that locally renowned philanthropist Julian Shakespeare Carr was an open advocate of particularly brutal segregationist violence.

 

As to the links between Orangeism and Fascism, this is paywalled unfortunately and I don't have an affiliation at the moment to get a new copy, but IIRC this discusses it: https://www.jstor.org/stable/30006774

I don't know is the short answer,  but that's individuals rather than an organisational thing.

As you say I can't access the link you posted but I'd be surprised at any great link between the British Fascists and the Orange Order. 

[Hmfc1965]

2 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

The disdain (try utter ****ing contempt 😉)  shown towards these marches is because most (tolerant) people see them for what they are, not what they claim to be. 

Right then.

[i wish jj was my dad]

Trying to offer the benefit iof the doubt but why does the lodge feel the need to dress up and 'walk the queen's highway' when they know the arseholes it attracts and the mayhem it causes? 

Could there be a better way to preserve or protect their heritage? 

[Hmfc1965]

11 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Trying to offer the benefit iof the doubt but why does the lodge feel the need to dress up and 'walk the queen's highway' when they know the arseholes it attracts and the mayhem it causes? 

Could there be a better way to preserve or protect their heritage? 

Actually there has been no difficulty at all described about today's march, other than people don't like it.

[The Gorgie]

17 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Trying to offer the benefit iof the doubt but why does the lodge feel the need to dress up and 'walk the queen's highway' when they know the arseholes it attracts and the mayhem it causes? 

Could there be a better way to preserve or protect their heritage? 

What mayhem mate? It passed off without any incidents today. Only mayhem would be road diversions, which happens with any parade, no different to the SNP marches.

[AuldReekiee]

If you ever need to lose an erection fast just google some images of the people at these parades. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

10 minutes ago, Sir Craig Gordon said:

What mayhem mate? It passed off without any incidents today. Only mayhem would be road diversions, which happens with any parade, no different to the SNP marches.

I have lived in West Lothian all my life and was brought up in Polbeth.

I have witnessed the mayhem the  'tradition' has caused in those communities since I was a nipper, mate.

[spirt of 98]

Bunch of saddos 

[spirt of 98]

12 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I have lived in West Lothian all my life and was brought up in Polbeth.

I have witnessed the mayhem the  'tradition' has caused in those communities since I was a nipper, mate.

You stay in Chapleton also known as Giro Street. You know Rab Carroll? Sure he was a Celtic Man. 

[OmiyaHearts]

It's dying out big time imo. When I was a kid, even the local marches in Glasgow had thousands following. Now, you're lucky to see a hundred.

 

There's an orange lodge on my street and they had a walk for the jubilee last weekend, there was about ten people following it. Only needed one copper escorting.

 

Another few years and it'll hopefully be done for good.