** Official Heart of Midlothian vs Celtic Match day thread**

[Debut 4]

39 minutes ago, Gambo said:

They are an average Celtic team. We made them look.like a world beating Cetic team.

For a 3rd place team at home we have and need to be looking to perform better than that first 60mins, it was far far too easy for them.

Fair play to Neilson for the changes, but first 60mins needs addressed.

 

I think we saw evidence that 2 or 3 of our players will get us by v most of the SPL but lack courage in these matches. Barrie Mackay was hugely disappointing. A player many would’ve went along tonight hoping he’d be a leader and show the quality of late.  
 

He lacked bravery, was hesitant, too often too feeble when asked to fight harder to protect the ball.  He produced the pass for our goal and many will say that what he brings, but we can’t have many situations like this where it’s too little too late in a key match. Players need to show it from the start. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Debut 4

[Byyy The Light]

3 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

I have seen 4 managers since I have watched football in Scotland that didn't give a **** about playing Celtic or Rangers.Ferguson , McClean ,Alex MacDonald and George Burley.Now there may be a few others but that's really all I can think of the rest all had a fear even JJ 

3 were 30 years ago in a different world and the other one was a manager with the only squad that’s had unsustainable money chucked at it. Also 17 years ago. 

[GinRummy]

5 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

Playing only 2 natural centre mids was a mistake, with one now not having the athleticism to cope with more intense matches. 
 

It felt similar to the Livingston away match. Too much of a gap between midfield and the front line when we got the ball. We needed a link closer to the front 3 when it broke for us but Devlin(for all he is superb at closing down) isn’t a pass picker and Haring is too slow. 

 

The courage drained from the players as Celtic swarmed us from about 10 minutes onwards. When you’ve been getting battered and having to defend for most part, players switch off when we finally get the ball.  There’s no appetite to move, maybe even no energy.  
 

I thought we did ok for the last half hour. Bizarrely, if we scored the penalty I think we’d have had the hunger to try and snatch a victory. 

I think you’re right. We did play with three centre mids in the league cup game and got absolutely blown away in the first half. Maybe that’s what’s putting him off. 

[Pasquale for King]

5 minutes ago, cosanostra said:

 

Agree with all of that.

I was so sure Rab would have played the 3 centre mids.

Yeah I think I would’ve. 

[Debut 4]

Just now, GinRummy said:

I think you’re right. We did play with three centre mids in the league cup game and got absolutely blown away in the first half. Maybe that’s what’s putting him off. 

It may still not have made a difference given how Celtic played in the first half, but in respect of what we witnessed, I wouldn’t have been against an early first half shuffle.  Esp when it went to 2-0 and the threat of a doing. 

[Nobreath]

Gordon would normally have saved that first goal. 

[One five]

I’m no fan of GMS the opposite actually but thought he played well when he came on 

[vegas-voss]

2 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

3 were 30 years ago in a different world and the other one was a manager with the only squad that’s had unsustainable money chucked at it. Also 17 years ago. 

I know but that is the reality of it.Folk saying he needs to learn but nobody has over the years bar a select few.

[One five]

Just now, Nobreath said:

Gordon would normally have saved that first goal. 

I’m in the main stand Q section so I never seen the angle, bad positioning or what?

[No Idle Talk]

10 minutes ago, MattyK82 said:

The Rangers game at Tynecastle we were very good. Just profligate. Tonight - after a lively first 10, we sat off Celtic too much and if you do that v a good team, you’ll get punished. Our passing was 💩. We were passive, sloppy, pretty much everything we haven’t been, certainly at home this season.
 

2nd half - far better. Simms and Beni coming on swung the game in our favour as did the change in shape. After the Boyce goal and when we got the pen, I genuinely thought the full comeback was on. Celtic were rattled at that stage. 
 

Full focus on Saturday now. Need 3 points v Motherwell to really solidify 3rd. The results from last night/tonight at least weren’t damaging. 

 

That's pretty much how I see things as well. 👍

[Pasquale for King]

8 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

I have seen 4 managers since I have watched football in Scotland that didn't give a **** about playing Celtic or Rangers.Ferguson , McClean ,Alex MacDonald and George Burley.Now there may be a few others but that's really all I can think of the rest all had a fear even JJ 

I don’t think Sergio feared them and defeated both, not sure Stendel was that scared either. Someone untouched by them or Scottish football in general is the only way to someone who isn’t in their thrall. 

[cosanostra]

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Yeah I think I would’ve. 

 

You're a tactical genius tbh. 🤘

[Ked]

Celtic simply outclassed us first half.

 

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, Nobreath said:

Gordon would normally have saved that first goal. 

Unsighted I think, as hard as the shot was. 

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, cosanostra said:

 

You're a tactical genius tbh. 🤘

In my own head anyway 🤪

[Des Lynam]

First half was embarrassing. 

[vegas-voss]

1 minute ago, One five said:

I’m in the main stand Q section so I never seen the angle, bad positioning or what?

He is a bit unsighted by the Hearts player as the shot is struck.Its also a rocket of a shot.We expect Gordon to save it as he is just that good but sometimes the best just don't save them.

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Debut 4 said:

It may still not have made a difference given how Celtic played in the first half, but in respect of what we witnessed, I wouldn’t have been against an early first half shuffle.  Esp when it went to 2-0 and the threat of a doing. 

Formation could well have made a difference. For me though, I just don’t think there were enough players who stood up to be counted. Cochrane looked totally confused about where he should be and what he should be doing. Boyce was absolutely awful. Gino was in hiding and collectively we seemed to think we had all the time in the world to move the ball on. Players just milling about and not finding space to give their team mates an obvious option. It’s almost as if the tweak in formation fooled them into believing in themselves more than anything else (don’t mean that last bit in a bad way). 

[Byyy The Light]

2 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

I know but that is the reality of it.Folk saying he needs to learn but nobody has over the years bar a select few.

Its not a case of learning. They’re better. It’s madness to think it’s possible to match them every time.

 

It’s like Celtic fans expecting to turn over Man City every time they play

[vegas-voss]

4 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I don’t think Sergio feared them and defeated both, not sure Stendel was that scared either. Someone untouched by them or Scottish football in general is the only way to someone who isn’t in their thrall. 

Robbie has defeated both as well

[Rogue Daddy]

11 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

Playing only 2 natural centre mids was a mistake, with one now not having the athleticism to cope with more intense matches. 
 

It felt similar to the Livingston away match. Too much of a gap between midfield and the front line when we got the ball. We needed a link closer to the front 3 when it broke for us but Devlin(for all he is superb at closing down) isn’t a pass picker and Haring is too slow. 

 

The courage drained from the players as Celtic swarmed us from about 10 minutes onwards. When you’ve been getting battered and having to defend for most part, players switch off when we finally get the ball.  There’s no appetite to move, maybe even no energy.  
 

I thought we did ok for the last half hour. Bizarrely, if we scored the penalty I think we’d have had the hunger to try and snatch a victory. 

Yeah, I actually thought (defensive though it would seem) we would have been better with Beni in there with Cammy and Haring and only having 2 up front. 
Much better in the second half and, again, we had them pinned back… should have had at least a draw in the end. 
We’re definitely not far away… we’re certainly giving the uglies a game. When you see Beni you realise how we’ve missed him and the new lad looks a right handful as well. 
Disappointing but plenty to be optimistic about, going forward. 

[Debut 4]

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Formation could well have made a difference. For me though, I just don’t think there were enough players who stood up to be counted. Cochrane looked totally confused about where he should be and what he should be doing. Boyce was absolutely awful. Gino was in hiding and collectively we seemed to think we had all the time in the world to move the ball on. Players just milling about and not finding space to give their team mates an obvious option. It’s almost as if the tweak in formation fooled them into believing in themselves more than anything else (don’t mean that last bit in a bad way). 

Totally agree.  Individual performances disappointed more than anything.  
 

We didn’t cope with the press from Celtic at all.  Players were too weak or not sharp enough on dealing with it.  It all breaks down horribly once 3 or 4 lose it in their heads. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

23 minutes ago, Sherbet said:

Tonight first half, celtic league cup , rangers here

To be honest all the first halves against them both this season have been dreadful. We’ve managed to get 4 points from the 5 games though and could have got more but for a missed penalty, dodgy offside and other poor finishing.  The second half performances against them have been night and day compared to first half.

[Aussie Jambo]

No offence but what the feck was CG up to in first half? He had a shocker. Ref / linesmen in Celtics pockets yet again. That blatant hand ball and was on yellow. He should have been sent off.

Totally agree that Boyce shouldn’t be let near any penalty against the erse cheeks ever again. Anyone but him. I knew he would miss and said so. I was livid when he proved me right. Simms should have bossed him out and took it. That was a massive penalty that he shat himself taking. Unlucky but he has to score these. McKay started off good but what happened to him? Long balls to sideline or Celtic players. A few were out of depth in this game. Wee Cammy is a terrier but lucky he didn’t get sent off. Mind he’s only a wee boy and was getting pushed about by those Celtic pricks. None of which got booked either. Ref was useless yet again. Robbie has to say something about blatant time wasting at the end. “The cramp” incident. Took all the momentum out of our attack. I’ve got high blood pressure and my tablets done hee haw the day likes. But was so proud of them second half. Like Rocky against MrT Lucky *******s yet again. We prove that we can be equally as good regardless if it’s B team as that in money terms shits on ours. 

I an actually proud of the boys. 

Beni is god. Simms looks like a great find. He instantly made a difference. Boyce should be sidelined against well and give Simms a go. He can always come on as a sub. 

[Byyy The Light]

4 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I don’t think Sergio feared them and defeated both, not sure Stendel was that scared either. Someone untouched by them or Scottish football in general is the only way to someone who isn’t in their thrall. 

Robbie has beaten them both too. We beat them already at Tynecastle this year. I don’t understand what people expect. We left tonight disappointed we didn’t get at least a point. 

[vegas-voss]

2 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

Its not a case of learning. They’re better. It’s madness to think it’s possible to match them every time.

 

It’s like Celtic fans expecting to turn over Man City every time they play

I agree with you it's the old saying you need to be on the top of your game and hope 4 or 5 of them are not.First half tonight though you could not have gave anybody a pass mark for us.

[One five]

4 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

He is a bit unsighted by the Hearts player as the shot is struck.Its also a rocket of a shot.We expect Gordon to save it as he is just that good but sometimes the best just don't save them.

Yeah agree mate we can’t expect him to save every shot , top man 👍

[Gambo]

16 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

I think we saw evidence that 2 or 3 of our players will get us by v most of the SPL but lack courage in these matches. Barrie Mackay was hugely disappointing. A player many would’ve went along tonight hoping he’d be a leader and show the quality of late.  
 

He lacked bravery, was hesitant, too often too feeble when asked to fight harder to protect the ball.  He produced the pass for our goal and many will say that what he brings, but we can’t have many situations like this where it’s too little too late in a key match. Players need to show it from the start. 

Correct.

I'd add Ginnelly into that. 2 players that we needed to be somewhere near their best but weren't (not alone), McKay did have some good points but not enough.

 

Devlin is another who has to start stepping up his game in the bigger matches.

[Byyy The Light]

Also how the **** Jota not booked for his pull back on Haring in first half? Would’ve been sent off 5 mins later after lashing out at Devlin 

[vegas-voss]

1 minute ago, Byyy The Light said:

Also how the **** Jota not booked for his pull back on Haring in first half? Would’ve been sent off 5 mins later after lashing out at Devlin 

Three nonsense bookings none of them should have been booked imo.

[Byyy The Light]

1 minute ago, vegas-voss said:

I agree with you it's the old saying you need to be on the top of your game and hope 4 or 5 of them are not.First half tonight though you could not have gave anybody a pass mark for us.

Was disappointing to see but I think that was credit to Celtic. We got the ball and wanted rid as quick as possible because they were all over us. Being accurate and Doing things at speed under pressure is what separates players through the levels.

 

They’re just better. 

[GinRummy]

Just now, vegas-voss said:

Three nonsense bookings none of them should have been booked imo.

Beaton is a ****ing drama queen.  

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Hearts1975 said:

Gutted us missing that penalty. If we had scored that, I think the momentum would have seen us win that game. 

That said, folk need to temper expectations a little bit. 2 things happened in that first half. 

They came out the traps at 100 mile an hour and we didn't lay a glove on them. We couldn't keep the ball and they just swarmed over us. That's the bit we need to figure out, and is how we start these games. If they come out the traps at 100 miles an hour the starting formation and tactics should be more about nullifying that type of threat 

 

Devlin was off it completely - running around like a man possessed but far too often pressing the ball and ending up out of position in the middle.

Beni just strolls it - Beni and Simms changed the game in the 2nd half and the tactical tweak worked. 

 

All that said, we are now disappointed and moaning about the fact that we have lost a game 2-1 to septic. 

For me the most important thing is bridging the gap, and I see signs that we are getting closer, rather than the OF are getting further away. That's progress and that is our plan. 

At least Neilson is changing things when things aren't working and today was a good example of this. Fair play.

 

Hopefully Smith, Halkett and Mckay are all ok. Halkett is my main worry and just because of the way he went down.

We need these guys back, pick ourselves up and move on to the next game 

 

Oh, and we need another penalty taker - Agree with previous comments. Boyce ain't the answer. 

 

We don't need to figure it out. 

£750k + salaries and  £1-£5m transfers is why they can do it. 

 

It's not a head scratcher. 

[Aussie Jambo]

I might just rewatch the whole game just to count how many times Celtic got free kicks for nothing and then got off with the same. 

Im sure it will be a lot in Celtics cheating favour. 

[Byyy The Light]

2 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Three nonsense bookings none of them should have been booked imo.

Still pisses me off. Subtle decisions like that influence the game. Jota was different class  

[HMFC01]

23 minutes ago, cosanostra said:

 

Agree with all of that.

I was so sure Rab would have played the 3 centre mids.

 

I'll have to watch the game again.   I'm certain we had a back four at times with cochrane in midfield three, 433.  Then it went back to 343. 

 

 

[vegas-voss]

1 minute ago, Byyy The Light said:

Still pisses me off. Subtle decisions like that influence the game. Jota was different class  

The three that got booked in that exchange you knew if one got sent off it would have been Devlin that's what pissed me off as there was nothing in it.

[Pasquale for King]

11 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Robbie has defeated both as well

Indeed he has, I think Sergio had 1 draw and three wins in 9 games against them. Stendel 2 wins in 3. Not sure Neilsons percentage but probably slightly less. 

[McCrae]

33 minutes ago, Rattatooi said:

I see it very differently. Just about every player in the first half had a stinker. Celtic are good quality and can make life difficult for any team but we were VERY sloppy. The amount of passes to no-one and lack of fight to be first to the ball was horrendous. That’s not Neilson fault. The only argument I could see against him was that he took to half time to start making the changes but when he made them, they were good positive changes that almost got a result. If the penalty went in there was only going to be one winner. The players were the problem first half.

The changes he made involved adding more people to the midfield.

[DG_HMFC]

17 minutes ago, Ked said:

Celtic simply outclassed us first half.

 

 

That's because they were allowed to. I can handle getting spanked off a better team, and Celtic are a better team, but what I can't handle is Hearts approaching a big game at home in that manner. Totally out fought, out worked, etc. Not acceptable. 

[Pasquale for King]

11 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

Robbie has beaten them both too. We beat them already at Tynecastle this year. I don’t understand what people expect. We left tonight disappointed we didn’t get at least a point. 

I’m not criticising him at all, as I’ve said in the past I would prefer a DoF and manager not connected to the uglies or the corrupt entity that is Scottish football. 
I think Savage and Neilson want to see us challenge them soon so it’s all good. 

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, DG_HMFC said:

 

That's because they were allowed to. I can handle getting spanked off a better team, and Celtic are a better team, but what I can't handle is Hearts approaching a big game at home in that manner. Totally out fought, out worked, etc. Not acceptable. 

Not usually defending him but he did say they didn’t get close enough to them in the first half especially, which seems to have been the plan. Why that was is the question. 

[Pasquale for King]

9 minutes ago, HMFC01 said:

 

I'll have to watch the game again.   I'm certain we had a back four at times with cochrane in midfield three, 433.  Then it went back to 343. 

 

 

It was a four the whole game, Smith never crossed the half way line in his fifteen minutes on the pitch. Cochrane looked a bit lost further forward. 

[Bazzas right boot]

8 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Indeed he has, I think Sergio had 1 draw and three wins in 9 games against them. Stendel 2 wins in 3. Not sure Neilsons percentage but probably slightly less. 

 

 

Rabid. 

 

[Hearts1975]

2 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

We don't need to figure it out. 

£750k + salaries and  £1-£5m transfers is why they can do it. 

 

It's not a head scratcher. 

Not disagreeing with that at all, but to say that we don't need to try to figure it out defeats the point of even playing the game. 

Whether you like it or not, all football managers of all football clubs are trying to figure it out, and will continue to try and figure it out as long as there are games to play. 

There is an obvious gulf in quality between our players, and their players and as you said, that's what happens when you pay more money. 

However that's the same for most clubs - 9 times out of 10 you will have a favourite and underdog for each match. 

Folk might think its something that we are doing wrong, or its the wrong tactical instruction by the manager but sometimes its just as simple as when you are playing, you naturally sit back, as you are shitting yourself that you get caught out of possession, and especially when your opposite number is lightening quick. 

But as someone said, the last 3 matches against them after being battered in the 1st half, 2nd half, we have came out and dominated against them.

Whilst there are a few permutations of why this could have happened, its a valid question to ask why we managed to turn it around in the 2nd half on 3 consecutive occasions and if there is anything differently we could do, and to try and start the game in the same fashion. 

 

 

[HMFC01]

3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

It was a four the whole game, Smith never crossed the half way line in his fifteen minutes on the pitch. Cochrane looked a bit lost further forward. 

 

Cheers, so I wasn't hallucinating.   ****sake, I'll have to watch the game again to understand what formation, strategy we were angling at.   It seemed fine.  Just the players having a nightmare tonight.   

[Bazzas right boot]

Just now, Hearts1975 said:

Not disagreeing with that at all, but to say that we don't need to try to figure it out defeats the point of even playing the game. 

Whether you like it or not, all football managers of all football clubs are trying to figure it out, and will continue to try and figure it out as long as there are games to play. 

There is an obvious gulf in quality between our players, and their players and as you said, that's what happens when you pay more money. 

However that's the same for most clubs - 9 times out of 10 you will have a favourite and underdog for each match. 

Folk might think its something that we are doing wrong, or its the wrong tactical instruction by the manager but sometimes its just as simple as when you are playing, you naturally sit back, as you are shitting yourself that you get caught out of possession, and especially when your opposite number is lightening quick. 

But as someone said, the last 3 matches against them after being battered in the 1st half, 2nd half, we have came out and dominated against them.

Whilst there are a few permutations of why this could have happened, its a valid question to ask why we managed to turn it around in the 2nd half on 3 consecutive occasions and if there is anything differently we could do, and to try and start the game in the same fashion. 

 

 

 

 

Celtic tactics are easy to work out. 

I called it before the game. 

 

But if the better players, that cost more and get paid more do their job then you are in trouble. 

 

Even with that-

Boyce scores a pk and it 2-2 with them dead on their arse. 

Fine margins. 

 

[Hearts1975]

3 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

Celtic tactics are easy to work out. 

I called it before the game. 

 

But if the better players, that cost more and get paid more do their job then you are in trouble. 

 

Even with that-

Boyce scores a pk and it 2-2 with them dead on their arse. 

Fine margins. 

 

Fair enough. 

Still, huge progress from years gone by, and when we now play them. 

Fine margins indeed. Boyce puts that away we would have won that game. 

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

Great performance second half. Pathetic first half. Cochrane isnt a defender at all. Beni is probably our best player. We’ll still finish 3rd at a canter.

[Pasquale for King]

7 minutes ago, HMFC01 said:

 

Cheers, so I wasn't hallucinating.   ****sake, I'll have to watch the game again to understand what formation, strategy we were angling at.   It seemed fine.  Just the players having a nightmare tonight.   

Looked like a 442, not sure it worked with the personnel in the first half but was better after the changes.