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Neilson and the plan B


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Smith's right boot
15 minutes ago, lost in space said:

Of course. We mostly have better players than the other teams though. We are using the same pool of players, home and away, yet not "bossing" often enough away from home.

No matter who you are, this is a concern - and changes need to be made.

Or do you think we should continue with same team/same formation/ same tactics - yet expect different results?

 

 

Do we? 

What proof do you have that we have better players.

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Aye, that pesky other team defending, attacking, trying to win games. 

It is an issue. 

 

Tbh, If it wasn't for that we'd never lose a game. 

 

 

Always an excuse when we lose, yet nothing said when we win. 

 

 

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Just now, lost in space said:

Of course. We mostly have better players than the other teams though. We are using the same pool of players, home and away, yet not "bossing" often enough away from home.

No matter who you are, this is a concern - and changes need to be made.

Or do you think we should continue with same team/same formation/ same tactics - yet expect different results?

Wasting you're time. 

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lost in space
2 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Do we? 

What proof do you have that we have better players.

 

 

 

 

Proof? I would have thought it was rather obvious but if you look at the international level of Gordon, Smith, Souttar, Boyce -as well as the accepted high level of media praise for Benni and Devlin - the other teams like Motherwell and United don't have this.

Do you not think we have better players (outwith ersecheecks)?

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lost in space
7 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Wasting you're time. 

Thanks Bongo. The alternative though is to allow a one-sided "nothing to see here", "no changes required", attitude to continue unchallenged - on and on and on and.........

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Niemi’s gloves
4 minutes ago, lost in space said:

Proof? I would have thought it was rather obvious but if you look at the international level of Gordon, Smith, Souttar, Boyce -as well as the accepted high level of media praise for Benni and Devlin - the other teams like Motherwell and United don't have this.

Do you not think we have better players (outwith ersecheecks)?

The last I looked, we were 3rd in the table not 12th. And Beni and Devlin didn’t come to Tynecastle with an established reputation: they got their reputation playing under Robbie’s management. 

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lost in space
8 minutes ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

The last I looked, we were 3rd in the table not 12th. And Beni and Devlin didn’t come to Tynecastle with an established reputation: they got their reputation playing under Robbie’s management. 

Yes we are third - better than I thought we would be at this stage. This is partly due to the recruitment team which includes Neilson.

Are you seriously happy with our current away form?

Do you not think we could improve away from home with the players we have?

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The Grim Reaper
14 minutes ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

The last I looked, we were 3rd in the table not 12th. And Beni and Devlin didn’t come to Tynecastle with an established reputation: they got their reputation playing under Robbie’s management. 


😂

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kingantti1874
33 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Do we? 

What proof do you have that we have better players.

 

 

 

 


our ****ing eyes.. 

 

and our ****ing wage bill.

 

you are insufferable sometimes.. 

 

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Smith's right boot
1 minute ago, kingantti1874 said:


our ****ing eyes.. 

 

and our ****ing wage bill.

 

you are insufferable sometimes.. 

 

 

If you look at our players cv many are similar to players from other teams

 

Aberdeen and Hibs wage bill are similar, Aberdeen probably more.

 

TBH, You don't have a real answer.

 

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kingantti1874
4 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

If you look at our players cv many are similar to players from other teams

 

Aberdeen and Hibs wage bill are similar, Aberdeen probably more.

 

TBH, You don't have a real answer.

 


I don’t have a real answer ? According to you..
 

hearts great = Robbie is great. 

 

hearts bad = Robbie is still great but players not good enough.

 

I don’t need a real answer, your point is ****ing garbage as usual. 
 

Overall Robbie has been great this season, but he got it wrong at Aberdeen and he got it wrong at Motherwell.. it’s that ****ing simple.  

Edited by kingantti1874
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Smith's right boot
26 minutes ago, lost in space said:

Proof? I would have thought it was rather obvious but if you look at the international level of Gordon, Smith, Souttar, Boyce -as well as the accepted high level of media praise for Benni and Devlin - the other teams like Motherwell and United don't have this.

Do you not think we have better players (outwith ersecheecks)?

 

 

Hibs  have internationals.

Benni and Devlin were unknown until they came here. You wouldn't have picked them out a line up before they signed for us.

Hibs for example have Boyle, Porteous and  Nisbet as internationals and are still shite.

Aberdeen have less internationals but have several players form higher ranked nations. They also have the ex Scotland captain playing for them.

 

I don't think our quality of player is that much better that we can dismiss other teams players as poorer across the board, many who have played for several years at our top level and with  teams that have out performed Hearts since Robbie left 1st time.

 

Maybe you have watched and followed the career of lots of other players across the other 12 teams and can draw comparisons much easier, but I can't .

 

We have 5 or 6 established players at our level and about the same that have been untested until this season.

 

You are basically assuming we have the better players than everyone else without any real though, research or logic.

 

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2 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:


I don’t have a real answer ? According to you..
 

hearts great = Robbie is great. 

 

hearts bad = Robbie is still great but players not good enough.

 

I don’t need a real answer, your point is ****ing garbage as usual. 
 

Overall Robbie has been great this season, but he got it wrong at Aberdeen and he got it wrong at Motherwell.. it’s that ****ing simple.  

I get RN wants to establish a style and it takes time. I believe he’s aware of criticism about being flexible as his comments about ‘small alterations rather than wholesale’ points to that.  But he’ll still be(and should be) judged on results because it’s a dangerous game for people on the sidelines to think our aim should just be to forge a style. 
 

He’s still the manager. He’s still expected to be shrewd enough to tweak the team when required, whether before or during the game. 
 

Ok, managers don’t get it right all the time but I didn’t see the kitchen sink getting thrown at either Aberdeen or Motherwell.  We didn’t come away thinking we had a go and just got done, end of. 
 

The character and tinkering(positional changes, personnel changes) can be brought into question in these scenarios.  

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Just now, lost in space said:

Thanks Bongo. The alternative though is to allow a one-sided "nothing to see here", "no changes required", attitude to continue unchallenged - on and on and on and.........

I reckon Smith's right boot would be able to tell you what Robbie has had for breakfast, with the amount of brown nosing he does. 

Edited by Bongo 1874
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Smith's right boot
7 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:


I don’t have a real answer ? According to you..
 

hearts great = Robbie is great. 

 

hearts bad = Robbie is still great but players not good enough.

 

I don’t need a real answer, your point is ****ing garbage as usual. 
 

Overall Robbie has been great this season, but he got it wrong at Aberdeen and he got it wrong at Motherwell.. it’s that ****ing simple.  

 

Nah, overall he has got it right this season but he players have done well but also let us down at times.

 

That is what you get from players in our price and quality range, a little bit inconsistency. No manager would have them winning every game.

 

Robbie isn't great ( I don't think anyone has ever seriously put that forward), but he has a good league record and we are on course for top 3 again under him.

 

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There you have it folks same line was trotted out with levein, it's the players fault if we lose, and Robbie gets all credit if we win ^

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Smith's right boot
1 minute ago, Bongo 1874 said:

I reckon Smith's right boot would be able to tell you what Robbie has had for breakfast, with the amount of brown nosing he does. 

 

Coming from the guy that has a wee hard on for our last failure of a manger that is something else on the irony meter.

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Just now, Smith's right boot said:

 

Coming from the guy that has a wee hard on for our last failure of a manger that is something else on the irony meter.

Not nice to talk about Craig Levein like that 😉

 

Still sitting here wondering why he thought it was okay to take a wage out the club, brass neck? 

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kingantti1874
6 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Nah, overall he has got it right this season but he players have done well but also let us down at times.

 

That is what you get from players in our price and quality range, a little bit inconsistency. No manager would have them winning every game.

 

Robbie isn't great ( I don't think anyone has ever seriously put that forward), but he has a good league record and we are on course for top 3 again under him.

 


Aye maybe, and he did a bad job away at Aberdeen and away at Motherwell where, we were outnumbered in midfield and it blatantly wasn’t working, and wasn’t going to work.  
 

it’s not even debatable imo, Robbie let the players down with naive tactics as much as they played badly
 

 

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kingantti1874
Just now, Bongo 1874 said:

Genuine question can anyone tell me what plan A is? 


have you actually been to a game? See you are on the other end of the spectrum .. 

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Just now, kingantti1874 said:


have you actually been to a game? See you are on the other end of the spectrum .. 

Yes genuinely asking, what is Robbie preferred game plan. 

 

How does Robbie see Hearts? 

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13 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

There you have it folks same line was trotted out with levein, it's the players fault if we lose, and Robbie gets all credit if we win ^

 

Like anyone is reading this exchange bar you two :lol:

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lost in space
17 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Hibs  have internationals.

Benni and Devlin were unknown until they came here. You wouldn't have picked them out a line up before they signed for us.

Hibs for example have Boyle, Porteous and  Nisbet as internationals and are still shite.

Aberdeen have less internationals but have several players form higher ranked nations. They also have the ex Scotland captain playing for them.

 

I don't think our quality of player is that much better that we can dismiss other teams players as poorer across the board, many who have played for several years at our top level and with  teams that have out performed Hearts since Robbie left 1st time.

 

Maybe you have watched and followed the career of lots of other players across the other 12 teams and can draw comparisons much easier, but I can't .

 

We have 5 or 6 established players at our level and about the same that have been untested until this season.

 

You are basically assuming we have the better players than everyone else without any real though, research or logic.

 

Re International players, hobos have had very few caps apart from Boyle. Dons caps are mostly Brown's.

The fact that I wouldn't have picked Beni and Devlin is completely irrelevant, and you know that. The are very good and are here now.

I am not going to do a team comparison for all the teams in our league. I am not dismissing the other teams but in my opinion and in opinion of some others, we have a better squad of players including some decent players on the bench.

I am delighted to be able to say that but our form is not presently good away from home.

Can you answer the question - are you happy that we continue with the present team/formation/tactics away from home???

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10 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Like anyone is reading this exchange bar you two :lol:

 

Any unseen footage 😆😆😆😆😆

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22 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Genuine question can anyone tell me what plan A is? 

I’ve been reliably informed that Plan A is to finish third, plan B fourth and plan C fifth. 

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lost in space
8 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I’ve been reliably informed that Plan A is to finish third, plan B fourth and plan C fifth. 

I believe that Plan A is to keep possession where possible, use wing backs to get forward, use Beni and Devlin to stop other team in midfield, one central forward and 2 wider forwards. As a Plan A, it is a fine plan but like all formations it will not work all of the time.

You have to accept the formation will not always work and then you have to move on to a Plan B - if you have one.

Almost forgot - as part of Plan A and Plan B, have the best goalkeeper in the league.

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21 minutes ago, lost in space said:

I believe that Plan A is to keep possession where possible, use wing backs to get forward, use Beni and Devlin to stop other team in midfield, one central forward and 2 wider forwards. As a Plan A, it is a fine plan but like all formations it will not work all of the time.

You have to accept the formation will not always work and then you have to move on to a Plan B - if you have one.

Almost forgot - as part of Plan A and Plan B, have the best goalkeeper in the league.

 

Plan A is to score goals.

 

Plan B is to stop the other team scoring goals.

 

Pretty basic stuff and used the world over in sport.

 

Even the best in the world use this basic principle.

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1 hour ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Yes genuinely asking, what is Robbie preferred game plan. 

 

How does Robbie see Hearts? 


How would anyone other that Bob (Robbie) see Hearts?

 

Cut the sweeties out your diet Bongos.

 

 

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Just now, Vlad Magic said:


How would anyone other that Bob (Robbie) see Hearts?

 

Cut the sweeties out your diet Bongos.

 

 

No need to be rude Vlad, no I'm asking how does Robbie see Hearts, like set up what is his goal for football matches, does he like being possession based, high press, attacking or defensive?. 

 

I genuinely couldn't tell you how i would describe him maybe you can help me out? 

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lost in space
40 minutes ago, Bull's-eye said:

 

Plan A is to score goals.

 

Plan B is to stop the other team scoring goals.

 

Pretty basic stuff and used the world over in sport.

 

Even the best in the world use this basic principle.

Well.... erm.....yes, thanks for that.

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5 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

No need to be rude Vlad, no I'm asking how does Robbie see Hearts, like set up what is his goal for football matches, does he like being possession based, high press, attacking or defensive?. 

 

I genuinely couldn't tell you how i would describe him maybe you can help me out? 


Stop being so defensive. 

 

 

Personally I would let him decided. His team. His personality will show.

 

Doesn’t mean anything to you as you would get rid.

 

And then moan about something.

 

And then say you are getting bullied.

 

 

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3 hours ago, lost in space said:

Of course. We mostly have better players than the other teams though. We are using the same pool of players, home and away, yet not "bossing" often enough away from home.

No matter who you are, this is a concern - and changes need to be made.

Or do you think we should continue with same team/same formation/ same tactics - yet expect different results?

Every team, over time, plays much better at home than away. When you play a team at home it’s a different team you play against when away from home. And it’s nothing to do with tactics or formation. 

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Just now, Vlad Magic said:


Stop being so defensive. 

 

 

Personally I would let him decided. His team. His personality will show.

 

Doesn’t mean anything to you as you would get rid.

 

And then moan about something.

 

And then say you are getting bullied.

 

 

How would you describe him as a manager / coach and his style of play? 

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2 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:


our ****ing eyes.. 

 

and our ****ing wage bill.

 

you are insufferable sometimes.. 

 

Agree re eyes.  Disagree re wage bill.  Celtics players are not 8/9 times getter than ours. 

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33 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I’ve been reliably informed that Plan A is to finish third, plan B fourth and plan C fifth. 

That's nice dave, but was more talking about his footballing philosophy. 

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lost in space
2 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Every team, over time, plays much better at home than away. When you play a team at home it’s a different team you play against when away from home. And it’s nothing to do with tactics or formation. 

I agree your first sentence. However if away team has the better tactics and formation and better players and higher motivation, it will more often do better than a home team that doesn't.

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1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

I’ve been reliably informed that Plan A is to finish third, plan B fourth and plan C fifth. 

Yep and diff between A and C is circa £500k prize money plus possible cup windfall. Explains Robbie’s comment re big fee needed to let soapy go in January. 

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2 minutes ago, lost in space said:

I agree your first sentence. However if away team has the better tactics and formation and better players and higher motivation, it will more often do better than a home team that doesn't.

Motivation and mindset  is key to away games. 

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10 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:


hes so dumb sometimes - I don’t think I’ve heard anyone say we should abandon the system.. when it works it’s very good..

 

BUT when it isn’t working we need to recognise it and be able to make adjustments. 

 

Exactly. And if you play the exact same shape every week other teams will work out how to counter it. Goodwin will have watched the Motherwell game and can copy and paste their tactics if Robbie is saying we are sticking with plan A regardless.

 

The big problem last week was that we played a 5 2 3 not a 3 4 3. Not sure if that was because they pushed our wing backs back with their pressing game or because Smith especially and Cochrane were playing deeper than Moore and Cochrane did against United. I was calling for changing to a 4 3 3 before half time with Haring on for one of the wing backs (probably Cochrane with Kingsley playing left back). But if he had wanted to stick to plan A he should have been screaming at Smith and Cochrane to get up the pitch and maybe getting Smith to come more central to help Devlin and Beni.

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lost in space
59 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Motivation and mindset  is key to away games. 

Yes and we seem to have lost these in recent away games.

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8 hours ago, gnasher75 said:

 

Exactly. And if you play the exact same shape every week other teams will work out how to counter it. Goodwin will have watched the Motherwell game and can copy and paste their tactics if Robbie is saying we are sticking with plan A regardless.

 

The big problem last week was that we played a 5 2 3 not a 3 4 3. Not sure if that was because they pushed our wing backs back with their pressing game or because Smith especially and Cochrane were playing deeper than Moore and Cochrane did against United. I was calling for changing to a 4 3 3 before half time with Haring on for one of the wing backs (probably Cochrane with Kingsley playing left back). But if he had wanted to stick to plan A he should have been screaming at Smith and Cochrane to get up the pitch and maybe getting Smith to come more central to help Devlin and Beni.

It’s what puzzles me about Neilson’s thoughts?
 

Ok, try and play mostly on the deck in whatever formation he prefers. You do need to give a system time, I think we all get that.  I think we DO have the players to have the discipline and ability to do so.

 

But you must have variety, imo.   You must have the ability to spring a surprise. There’s a fine line between having a dedicated strategy and trying to win a football match. If you switch to a more direct approach that wins you a game after being ineffective for the first hour, it’s job done.  
 

The most enjoyable and probably successful Hearts teams I’ve watched (all of us have) had variety.  I just feel all this talk of how we want to play just cuddles up to the modern possession obsession. 

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Smith's right boot
59 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

It’s what puzzles me about Neilson’s thoughts?
 

Ok, try and play mostly on the deck in whatever formation he prefers. You do need to give a system time, I think we all get that.  I think we DO have the players to have the discipline and ability to do so.

 

But you must have variety, imo.   You must have the ability to spring a surprise. There’s a fine line between having a dedicated strategy and trying to win a football match. If you switch to a more direct approach that wins you a game after being ineffective for the first hour, it’s job done.  
 

The most enjoyable and probably successful Hearts teams I’ve watched (all of us have) had variety.  I just feel all this talk of how we want to play just cuddles up to the modern possession obsession. 

 

 

I agree and disagree. 

 

I think if Boyce was up front we could have went more direct v Motherwell. 

We couldn't tho and we also got a man sent off at 1-0. 

 

Folk are looking too much in to a couple of results. 

 

Getting beat of Aberdeen away was hardly a surprise if you know any thing about us. 

 

Motherwell away was shite, but at 1-0 we had a chance and changes were made, unfortunately we got a man sent off with 30 mins to play. 

 

However, I agree In general we need to mix it up now and than and he has done that in some games, but we need the personal to do that. 

Going direct to Woodburn or Gino is a waste of time. 

 

Out of the 20 odd games this season we are over anaylzing the defeats imo. 

 

We will get beat Likley about 7-10 times this season in the league ( if we have a good season), there is no need for a postmortem after every time it happens imo. 

 

The simple fact is  our players and therefore team are not good enough to dominant every game or team in this division. 

Been like that for almost 60 years it won't be changed after 1 transfer window on promotion. 

 

We Litterally have folk on here believing this season was our  Best ever chance at a league challenge - never going to happen. 

It would be a miracle. 

 

Expectation v reality are seriously misaligned for some. 

Ambition is also confused with ignorance and dreaming. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Smith's right boot
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2 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

I agree and disagree. 

 

I think if Boyce was up front we could have went more direct v Motherwell. 

We couldn't tho and we also got a man sent off at 1-0. 

 

Folk are looking too much in to a couple of results. 

 

Getting beat of Aberdeen away was hardly a surprise if you know any thing about us. 

 

Motherwell away was shite, but at 1-0 we had a chance and changes were made, unfortunately we got a man sent off with 30 mins to play. 

 

However, I agree In general we need to mix it up now and than and he has done that in some games, but we need the personal to do that. 

Going direct to Woodburn or Gino is a waste of time. 

 

Out of the 20 odd games this season we are over anaylzing the defeats imo. 

 

We will get beat Likley about 7-10 times this season in the league ( if we have a good season), there is no need for a postmortem after every time it happens imo. 

 

The simple fact is  our players and therefore team are not good enough to dominant every game or team in this division. 

Been like that for almost 60 years it won't be changed after 1 transfer window on promotion. 

 

We Litterally have folk on here believing this season was our  Best ever chance at a league challenge - never going to happen. 

It would be a miracle. 

 

Expectation v reality are seriously misaligned for some. 

Ambition is also confused with ignorance and dreaming. 

 

 

 

 

Agree.  It would be a miracle if we were so polished in our first season back but what happens in football is once you set a standard, it’s a fight to stay there 

Edited by Debut 4
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lost in space
2 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Ambition is also confused with ignorance and dreaming. 

 

 

 

 

I think it may only be you who is confused by these.

 

I asked you a question yesterday - "Can you answer the question - are you happy that we continue with the present team/formation/tactics away from home???".

 

You are not required to answer it of course but I am actually interested on your opinion on this.

 

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Smith's right boot
8 minutes ago, lost in space said:

I think it may only be you who is confused by these.

 

I asked you a question yesterday - "Can you answer the question - are you happy that we continue with the present team/formation/tactics away from home???".

 

You are not required to answer it of course but I am actually interested on your opinion on this.

 

 

 

Happy is too simple a phrase. 

 

I'm happy with our general form and the course we are on. 

 

Our away form, w2, d3 l2 ( I think) is OK and very much in line what I expect from a Hearts side. 

 

It can be improved, but back to my original point I am  not ignorant of other teams ambitions and home form.

 

I do not expect a newly promoted Hearts side to just turn up at away grounds and dominate. 

 

We simply are not good enough. 

 

 

 

 

 

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lost in space
6 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Happy is too simple a phrase. 

 

I'm happy with our general form and the course we are on. 

 

Our away form, w2, d3 l2 ( I think) is OK and very much in line what I expect from a Hearts side. 

 

It can be improved, but back to my original point I am  not ignorant of other teams ambitions and home form.

 

I do not expect a newly promoted Hearts side to just turn up at away grounds and dominate. 

 

We simply are not good enough. 

 

 

 

 

 

Good answer - and I dont disagree with any of it.

We will find something else to argue (sorry, debate) about soon enough I suspect.

Enjoy the game!!

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