Craig Levein joins Brechin

[Thomaso]

15 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

The loser tag is juvenile. For the fans. Banter for the five a sides. Banter for a session in the boozer. Professionals, actual people in the game, might disagree and knowing how hard the game can be, how luck is a huge part, I know I am right. 

Yes I’ve already said giving him the “loser” tag is harsh or juvenile if you prefer.

Doesn't change the fact he can’t be given the “winner” tag as a player or a Manager.

[Riccarton3]

At least when he's asked who stopped you winning

 trophies, Craig? He can say Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen. As a player and manager.

 

Other men will retire with heavier regrets beaten by Livingston, Ross County, St Johnstone as players and managers.. What could have been. 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Riccarton3

[Boab]

12 minutes ago, 151 said:

 

Not drank in 4 years or something now mate but I am currently enjoying a bit of the sun. He is a loser and hasn't won anything. I dismissed his playing career based on not seeing it however the facts still remain that even as a player he won nothing. Makes perfect sense.

I’ll drink for the two of us !

[Boab]

50 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

Hard fact - Levein and the 85/86 won nothing apart from our support and admiration that had they came so close.

Of course. I only point I was trying to make was I wouldn’t come on here calling Chuck Berry a loser as he had won nothing.

[Thomaso]

19 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

At least when he's asked who stopped you winning

 trophies, Craig? He can say Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen. As a player and manager.

 

Other men will retire with heavier regrets beaten by Livingston, Ross County, St Johnstone as players and managers.. What could have been. 

So he was an honourable loser rather that a pish poor loser! 👍

[151]

36 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

The loser tag is juvenile. For the fans. Banter for the five a sides. Banter for a session in the boozer. Professionals, actual people in the game, might disagree and knowing how hard the game can be, how luck is a huge part, I know I am right. 

 

Fair enough I do get what you are saying. 

 

Luck does play a part, other players around you have a big part in how succesful you are as an individual and also little things like referee decisions that alter a game etc can have an impact on a final league position. 

 

My judgement on him changed drastically during his second tenure. When he took over after the lengthy managerial vacancy I wasn't actually angered like some on here. I didn't think it was the best move but was happy a "Hearts man" was back and obviously when we were like 13 points clear at the top was absolutely over the moon. Injuries destroyed that season for us but as it started to de compose infront of our eyes and then the subsequent failure to deliver a competitive squad he should have done what was best for us not what was best for him and his pockets.

 

The ground has been covered loads on here, and the thread is about him joining a club who actively tried to boot us when we were down and revelled in it. 

 

[jbee647]

5 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

I'm not defending him at all, I'm pointing out that if you say you won't slag a Hearts player for not winning trophies, but still slag Craig Levein for not winning trophies, you'll raise a few eyebrows.

 

1 hour ago, Riccarton3 said:

Along with thousands of players.in a country where 2 teams dominate massively. In England's top flight how many players are losers if the sole  measure of success is a trophy? There are so many players don't make it. To play at the top level in Scotland and play for your country (sorry no WC medal). Still an arseho!e but I sense hate is blinding some from any sense of perspective.

By using this argument Paul Hanlon and Lewis Stevenson are glory laden winners, two players who couldn’t have got a beach ball from Craig Levein in a phone box

Levein was a disaster as a manager but I can say without fear of contradiction was the finest Hearts central defender in the last 60 years 

[Riccarton3]

17 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

So he was an honourable loser rather that a pish poor loser! 👍

If you like. The story to grandchildren: Yep, son, I was manager of Dundee United and we lost to Rangers in the LC final in extra time. Rangers have won the LC over 30 times

 

Alternatively, we got beat by Ross County, son.

 

Ross....?

 

Aye, heiland club, son, from Ding wall, population about 3,000. First trophy they'd ever won.

 

 

I could go.on

 

Livingston would be a good one. Aye son they used to be Ferranti then Meadowbank. We were shite. Humiliated. Sorry son.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Riccarton3

[Thomaso]

11 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

If you like. The story to grandchildren: Yep, son, I was manager of Dundee United and we lost to Rangers in the LC final in extra time. Rangers have won the LC over 30 times

 

Alternatively, we got beat by Ross County, son.

 

Ross....?

 

Aye, heiland club, son, from Ding wall, population about 3,000. First trophy they'd ever won.

 

 

I could go.on

 

Livingston would be a good one. Aye son they used to be Ferranti then Meadowbank. We were shite. Humiliated. Sorry son.

Honourable loser it is then. 👍

[Thomaso]

14 minutes ago, jbee647 said:

 

By using this argument Paul Hanlon and Lewis Stevenson are glory laden winners, two players who couldn’t have got a beach ball from Craig Levein in a phone box

Levein was a disaster as a manager but I can say without fear of contradiction was the finest Hearts central defender in the last 60 years 

I agree with all that. 👍

[Riccarton3]

11 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

Honourable loser it is then. 👍

Lost League  as a player to Celtic team including McGrain, Burns, Bonnar, Aitken etc. Not a bad Celtic team. Lost cup to Aberdeen best team of the eighties

 

Lost SC final to Celtic as manager Lost LC final to Rangers as manager. There's is no loss, unless I'm mistaken, to any team that isn't top 3 in Scotland.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Riccarton3

[soonbe110]

6 hours ago, 151 said:

 

32. 

 

I remember seeing Robertson as a young boy. I remember Cameron, Fulton, Hamilton and Adam running riot. McCann ripping defences to bits. I remember Stamp, Valois, De Vries ripping Hibs to bits. And of course we have Skacel, Naismith, Souttar, Webster, Pressley, Fyssas, Fuller. A handful of those players won trophies at the club, and the other handful achieved so much more than just with Hearts in their career.

 

If Levein is/was better than all of those players above, in their peak, then fair enough. Looks like we had the Scottish Nesta.

Pre his first serious injury he was certainly right up there with the best of those who you named. Probably only Skacel and Fyssas in the same category as Levein the player imo. 

[soonbe110]

2 hours ago, 151 said:

 

I'm not moving any goal posts  

 

I said the guys won nothing in football. Nothing. After dedicating his entire life to the game. 

 

The players I quoted had nothing to do with the argument  they were in response to a poster who made out we had the best defender the worlds ever seen but unfortunately an injury stopped him from winning the Balon d'or.

 

They may have only had similar successes but they didn't have the arrogance and snideyness about them that Levein did - and none of them almost crippled the club through sheer stubbornness. They also haven't then went on to achieve such feats of loserness (if that can be coined as a term) in management.

 

Look, the argument seems to fall into two categories on here about Levein - those who seen him as a player and hold onto nostalgia, and those who seen him in management. First time round had its "successes", second time was horrendous. 

 

I don't want to argue any more as my points are being twisted - some of the things folk are saying I used in my argument were just quotes to other posters about a separate topic. 

 

The man knows nothing but losing. That is fine for some people, the almost men. He will end up a punter in a boozer talking about that one time he won a header in a big game or something.

It’s simpler than that. It’s about really ignorant people making claims about Levein as a player and a couple of hours later admitting they had never seen him play. If you haven’t seen him play you are not in a position to make any comments about his ability as a player.  

[151]

3 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Pre his first serious injury he was certainly right up there with the best of those who you named. Probably only Skacel and Fyssas in the same category as Levein the player imo. 

 

Fair enough mate. I appreciate that as alot of posters have said the same.

His second spell as manager and his general persona of late has totally riled me to the point of criticising everything about him.

[151]

Just now, soonbe110 said:

It’s simpler than that. It’s about really ignorant people making claims about Levein as a player and a couple of hours later admitting they had never seen him play. If you haven’t seen him play you are not in a position to make any comments about his ability as a player.  

 

Which is exactly why I didn't. I have and continue to post over and over again that due to not seeing him play I couldn't comment on his ability. 

 

I have said this so many times now its getting weird.

 

That does not change the fact he won nothing.

[redjambo]

20 minutes ago, 151 said:

 

Which is exactly why I didn't. I have and continue to post over and over again that due to not seeing him play I couldn't comment on his ability. 

 

I have said this so many times now its getting weird.

 

That does not change the fact he won nothing.

 

Matt le Tissier won nothing too. Neither did Stan Collymore. Who would have thunk it?

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by redjambo

[151]

16 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Matt le Tissier won nothing too. Neither did Stan Collymore. Who would have thunk it?

 

 

They have never affected Hearts through their arrogance and inability to win at all costs though.

[Unknown user]

37 minutes ago, 151 said:

 

Which is exactly why I didn't. I have and continue to post over and over again that due to not seeing him play I couldn't comment on his ability. 

 

I have said this so many times now its getting weird.

 

That does not change the fact he won nothing.

 

Winning nothing and being a loser aren't the same thing

[redjambo]

11 minutes ago, 151 said:

 

They have never affected Hearts through their arrogance and inability to win at all costs though.

 

That is a separate issue.

[151]

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

That is a separate issue.

 

I know. His ability as a player was brought into the argument when someone asked what age I was and what players I had seen in comparison to Levein. I listed players and it sparked a separate debate. Other posters have stated he is a loser through and through. I have said that from my point I can only really comment on his managerial record and his persona and I have covered this a few times now. I merely stated he won nothing as a player. It is a fact that clearly alot don't like. I cannot help that. I personally don't think football is for Levein.

[Riccarton3]

53 minutes ago, 151 said:

 

Which is exactly why I didn't. I have and continue to post over and over again that due to not seeing him play I couldn't comment on his ability. 

 

I have said this so many times now its getting weird.

 

That does not change the fact he won nothing.

To be fair, you make quips about him being Scotland's Nesta or whoever though you would never know as never saw the player. So, even in ignorance of the player, you have to imply folk must be exaggerating. I take it that's just frustration 

 

[redjambo]

5 minutes ago, 151 said:

 

I know. His ability as a player was brought into the argument when someone asked what age I was and what players I had seen in comparison to Levein. I listed players and it sparked a separate debate. Other posters have stated he is a loser through and through. I have said that from my point I can only really comment on his managerial record and his persona and I have covered this a few times now. I merely stated he won nothing as a player. It is a fact that clearly alot don't like. I cannot help that. I personally don't think football is for Levein.

 

And I argue that winning nothing as a player doesn't show that someone was not a good player, wasn't a "winner", or at least didn't have a winning mentality or a desire to win. Levein's playing career was cut short, as you know. Who knows what could have happened if it hadn't been. The fact that Levein won nothing as a player has absolutely feck all to do with his managerial career, especially his second stint with us, imo.

[151]

4 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

To be fair, you make quips about him being Scotland's Nesta or whoever though you would never know as never saw the player. So, even in ignorance of the player, you have to imply folk must be exaggerating. I take it that's just frustration 

 

 

That was more to do with the fact some posters were making out he was one injury away from winning the WC. 

[151]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

And I argue that winning nothing as a player doesn't show that someone was not a good player, wasn't a "winner", or at least didn't have a winning mentality or a desire to win. Levein's playing career was cut short, as you know. Who knows what could have happened if it hadn't been. The fact that Levein won nothing as a player has absolutely feck all to do with his managerial career, especially his second stint with us, imo.

 

And I have said I took back the insults about his playing career and said fair enough to the posters who said he was incredible as a player. I said my bitterness about him as a manager, in his 2nd spell certainly, made me come out with petty comments.

[redjambo]

Just now, 151 said:

 

And I have said I took back the insults about his playing career and said fair enough to the posters who said he was incredible as a player. I said my bitterness about him as a manager, in his 2nd spell certainly, made me come out with petty comments.

 

Ah fair enough, I didn't read that bit. I can fully understand your bitterness. Do carry on.

[redjambo]

4 minutes ago, 151 said:

 

That was more to do with the fact some posters were making out he was one injury away from winning the WC. 

 

He was a *very* good player.

[151]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

He was a *very* good player.

 

By todays standards? Or of the time? What I mean by that is I often watch players from years back and wonder how good they would be with todays players.

[Perth to Paisley]

1 hour ago, jbee647 said:

 

By using this argument Paul Hanlon and Lewis Stevenson are glory laden winners, two players who couldn’t have got a beach ball from Craig Levein in a phone box

Levein was a disaster as a manager but I can say without fear of contradiction was the finest Hearts central defender in the last 60 years 

No contradiction from me about him being out best Central defender....I would go as far as to say our best 'player' in the last 50 years.

Robbo/Skacel would give him a run for his money because of their impact but based on pure footballing talent its Craig for me.

Management is a different kettle of fish.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, 151 said:

 

By todays standards? Or of the time? What I mean by that is I often watch players from years back and wonder how good they would be with todays players.

 

Both.

[Debut 4]

8 hours ago, jamboozy said:

Enjoyed reading this, closer to how I feel about the situation with CL , Budge and the fans.

👍🏻

[MCW1976]

12 hours ago, Savage Vince said:

 

I think it's more about your need to be noticed. 

No.

 

If you know and respect your Hearts history, Levein is without doubt a Hearts great.

 

If you think otherwise, then you’re a modern day fool.

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by MCW1976
.

[MCW1976]

42 minutes ago, 151 said:

 

By todays standards? Or of the time? What I mean by that is I often watch players from years back and wonder how good they would be with todays players.

Levein was pure class.

 

He was Man of the Match in the World Cup finals game against Sweden in 1990 (Italia 90).

 

Trust us when we say, he was class - and would have been able to produce the goods then AND now.

[weegie jambo]

15 minutes ago, MCW1976 said:

Levein was pure class.

 

He was Man of the Match in the World Cup finals game against Sweden in 1990 (Italia 90).

 

Trust us when we say, he was class - and would have been able to produce the goods then AND now.

I concur, Levein was a very classy defender and would easily have held his own in the very best teams in the world. His management career however was distinctly average.

[MCW1976]

1 minute ago, weegie jambo said:

I concur, Levein was a very classy defender and would easily have held his own in the very best teams in the world. His management career however was distinctly average.

His managerial career tumbled when he returned to Hearts.

[weegie jambo]

9 minutes ago, MCW1976 said:

His managerial career tumbled when he returned to Hearts.

Agreed, first time around was good if not spectacular.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Medals aren't the only measure of a player. Levein battled back twice from injuries that would have finished other players. Each time he got back to being one of the best players in the UK, nevermind Scotland, with top clubs that would have delivered medals chasing his signature. That's says a lot more than any medal won when the cup draw is kind to you one year.

[Kiwidoug]

2 hours ago, MCW1976 said:

Levein was pure class.

 

He was Man of the Match in the World Cup finals game against Sweden in 1990 (Italia 90).

 

Trust us when we say, he was class - and would have been able to produce the goods then AND now.

Really pleased you posted that.  I was trying to think of a Scotland game I saw him in where he was utterly majestic.  That would have been it.  

 

I know I'm biased but I would describe that performance as world class.  Seem to remember he had MacPherson alongside him but may be wrong.

 

Tragic that his career was cut short.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

3 hours ago, 151 said:

 

By todays standards? Or of the time? What I mean by that is I often watch players from years back and wonder how good they would be with todays players.

 

Never ever should you try to compare players from different eras, the game changes too much. Its like asking who from Bauld or Robertson would you play up front.

[brux]

3 hours ago, 151 said:

 

By todays standards? Or of the time? What I mean by that is I often watch players from years back and wonder how good they would be with todays players.

I also wonder how good these players would have been with modern training methods, and how good today's players would be with old training methods and lifestyles 

[151]

48 minutes ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

Never ever should you try to compare players from different eras, the game changes too much. Its like asking who from Bauld or Robertson would you play up front.

 

Yeh I know but it's still always intriguing to think about todays player and how he would fare against the old school hard players. And vice versa how the old school would fit in now.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

26 minutes ago, 151 said:

 

Yeh I know but it's still always intriguing to think about todays player and how he would fare against the old school hard players. And vice versa how the old school would fit in now.

 

Levein would be a standout in today's football era, more so than someone like Alex McLeish who basically kept him out of the Scotland team most of his career.  Levein was hard but very skilful and fast, more of a continental type defender. Definitely not old school. The top player I've seen since who reminded me most of Levein was Rio Ferdinand. Looking at what defenders go for these days, Levein would easily be a 50m+ player at his peak if he was playing now. Looking at how Hickey got a move so quickly, we'd struggle to hold on to him for more than half a season if he played now. Levein had a similar impact at 17/18 and looked the real deal from the start.

 

Fans who were around in the 80s and 90s were lucky to be able to see great players like Levein, Robbo and JC for as long as we did. They'd be off for big money after a season or two at most in this era.

Edited June 5, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[Boab]

7 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Levein would be a standout in today's football era, more so than someone like Alex McLeish who basically kept him out of the Scotland team most of his career.  Levein was hard but very skilful and fast, more of a continental type defender. Definitely not old school. The top player I've seen since who reminded me most of Levein was Rio Ferdinand. Looking at what defenders go for these days, Levein would easily be a 50m+ player at his peak if he was playing now. Looking at how Hickey got a move so quickly, we'd struggle to hold on to him for more than half a season if he played now. Levein had a similar impact at 17/18 and looked the real deal from the start.

 

Fans who were around in the 80s and 90s were lucky to be able to see great players like Levein, Robbo and JC for as long as we did. They'd be off for big money after a season or two at most in this era.

In the crazy money of modern English football, if Harry McGuire is worth £80M, you could reasonably put a figure on that for CL at his peak. Easily !

[DH1986]

Most managers and footballers never win a major trophy.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

35 minutes ago, Boab said:

In the crazy money of modern English football, if Harry McGuire is worth £80M, you could reasonably put a figure on that for CL at his peak. Easily !

 

similar transactions to van dijik - we’d have sold him him from the diddy Scottish league for £4M or something to be later sold on for the crazy amounts

 

 pre-first injury only imo - after that injury he was still a very very good top Scottish league and more-than capable international defender but no-where near the level of before 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

13 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Winning nothing and being a loser aren't the same thing

 

Correct

 

a diddy Scottish league cup medal or playing and winning a game at a World Cup (and strolling it) - I’m guessing there’s more players achieved the former than the latter

 

tosh mckinley what a loser -  until he joined Celtic then he became a winner - difficult to pinpoint the key driver in this transformation

 

 

 

 

[MCW1976]

9 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

Really pleased you posted that.  I was trying to think of a Scotland game I saw him in where he was utterly majestic.  That would have been it.  

 

I know I'm biased but I would describe that performance as world class.  Seem to remember he had MacPherson alongside him but may be wrong.

 

Tragic that his career was cut short.

 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

3 minutes ago, MCW1976 said:

 

 

that was levein post-injury putting in a levein pre-injury performance - absolutely strolling it in a World Cup finals

 

big davie was alongside and flicked-on for the first goal 

 

 

[Doctor FinnBarr]

8 hours ago, 151 said:

 

Yeh I know but it's still always intriguing to think about todays player and how he would fare against the old school hard players. And vice versa how the old school would fit in now.

 

I'd like to see Broonaldo go up against the likes of Parker or MacKay and see who came out best, I'd wager my full years wage it would't be Broon.

[Last Laff]

3 hours ago, DH1986 said:

Most managers and footballers never win a major trophy.

Not if you're quality and Scottish. 

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, Last Laff said:

Not if you're quality and Scottish. 

John Robertson never played in the Scottish Cup final that he got his only winners medal for.