Top European Soccer Teams Agree to Join Breakaway League

[vegas-voss]

It's never ever going to happen anyway basically 4 teams are going to have to give up their place in the EPL.Two of which are being asked to let the Old Firm replace them to bring the league to 18 teams.

[No Idle Talk]

2 hours ago, Hashimoto said:

I'm in the camp that says that Scottish football would be the poorer without the OF.....I doesn't mean that I like them, or anything that they stand for. Anyone thinking that fans would suddenly come flocking back into grounds because the OF has left is sadly deluded. 

 

I don't think anybody is talking about supporters "flocking back" should the Old Firm leave. There are societal issues that would most likely stop that from happening. Football has to compete with too many other things for people's money and attention nowadays.

 

By the same token, I do not believe people are going to disappear in their droves  because the Old Firm are gone. When we won the Championship in 2015 we had our highest average attendance since 1992. When Hibernian won the Championship in 2017 they had their highest average attendance since 1973!(Their crowds since promotion have risen slightly but it was winning the Championship that spiked them.) Dundee Utd's average attendance when they won the Championship last season almost held up to it's expected top league level. Which isn't bad considering none of Hearts, Aberdeen, or Hibernian, were in the division.

 

Clearly it is not playing with the Old Firm that created these figures. Because one or both of them were not in that division when these seasons played out. Something else was keeping the attendance levels up.

 

My belief is it was the prospect of fans seeing their team win games and having a successful season that kept people going. 

 

How is any football fan supposed to get excited at the start of a league season when they, for all intents and purposes, know that finishing third is the best they can do? It's wrong. It's all bloody wrong. And I am absolutely convinced that over the years it has driven people away from grounds around Scotland. If you are a person who can't stand Rangers or Celtic(which most people can't), why should you have any interest in watching a league that has been won by Rangers or Celtic for the last 36 years? The answer is you shouldn't. And I wouldn't blame anyone who doesn't.

 

The whole game needs recalibrated. And I am not sure that recalibration can happen with the Old Firm inside the tent. Things have gone too far. They have become TOO big. Everything in Scottish Football is structured to help keep them at the top. Nobody else is relevant. We are just the side show to their main event.

 

For me the time has come to cast them out the tent. Recalibrate without them. Rebuild and restructure our game from the ground up. Have a more equal and competitive league where fans of several teams can genuinely look at the fixture list at the beginning of the season and have that wee kernel of a dream inside their head that "maybe this is our year". 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by No Idle Talk

[Rogue Daddy]

48 minutes ago, No Idle Talk said:

 

I don't think anybody is talking about supporters "flocking back" should the Old Firm leave. There are societal issues that would most likely stop that from happening. Football has to compete with too many other things for people's money and attention nowadays.

 

By the same token, I do not believe people are going to disappear in their droves  because the Old Firm are gone. When we won the Championship in 2015 we had our highest average attendance since 1992. When Hibernian won the Championship in 2017 they had their highest average attendance since 1973!(Their crowds since promotion have risen slightly but it was winning the Championship that spiked them.) Dundee Utd's average attendance when they won the Championship last season almost held up to it's expected top league level. Which isn't bad considering none of Hearts, Aberdeen, or Hibernian, were in the division.

 

Clearly it is not playing with the Old Firm that created these figures. Because one or both of them were not in that division when these seasons played out. Something else was keeping the attendance levels up.

 

My belief is it was the prospect of fans seeing their team win games and having a successful season that kept people going. 

 

How is any football fan supposed to get excited at the start of a league season when they, for all intents and purposes, know that finishing third is the best they can do? It's wrong. It's all bloody wrong. And I am absolutely convinced that over the years it has driven people away from grounds around Scotland. If you are a person who can't stand Rangers or Celtic(which most people can't), why should you have any interest in watching a league that has been won by Rangers or Celtic for the last 36 years? The answer is you shouldn't. And I wouldn't blame anyone who doesn't.

 

The whole game needs recalibrated. And I am not sure that recalibration can happen with the Old Firm inside the tent. Things have gone too far. They have become TOO big. Everything in Scottish Football is structured to help keep them at the top. Nobody else is relevant. We are just the side show to their main event.

 

For me the time has come to cast them out the tent. Recalibrate without them. Rebuild and restructure our game from the ground up. Have a more equal and competitive league where fans of several teams can genuinely look at the fixture list at the beginning of the season and have that wee kernel of a dream inside their head that "maybe this is our year". 

 

 

Good post mate, my sentiments exactly. 👍

[Byyy The Light]

2 hours ago, No Idle Talk said:

 

I don't think anybody is talking about supporters "flocking back" should the Old Firm leave. There are societal issues that would most likely stop that from happening. Football has to compete with too many other things for people's money and attention nowadays.

 

By the same token, I do not believe people are going to disappear in their droves  because the Old Firm are gone. When we won the Championship in 2015 we had our highest average attendance since 1992. When Hibernian won the Championship in 2017 they had their highest average attendance since 1973!(Their crowds since promotion have risen slightly but it was winning the Championship that spiked them.) Dundee Utd's average attendance when they won the Championship last season almost held up to it's expected top league level. Which isn't bad considering none of Hearts, Aberdeen, or Hibernian, were in the division.

 

Clearly it is not playing with the Old Firm that created these figures. Because one or both of them were not in that division when these seasons played out. Something else was keeping the attendance levels up.

 

My belief is it was the prospect of fans seeing their team win games and having a successful season that kept people going. 

 

How is any football fan supposed to get excited at the start of a league season when they, for all intents and purposes, know that finishing third is the best they can do? It's wrong. It's all bloody wrong. And I am absolutely convinced that over the years it has driven people away from grounds around Scotland. If you are a person who can't stand Rangers or Celtic(which most people can't), why should you have any interest in watching a league that has been won by Rangers or Celtic for the last 36 years? The answer is you shouldn't. And I wouldn't blame anyone who doesn't.

 

The whole game needs recalibrated. And I am not sure that recalibration can happen with the Old Firm inside the tent. Things have gone too far. They have become TOO big. Everything in Scottish Football is structured to help keep them at the top. Nobody else is relevant. We are just the side show to their main event.

 

For me the time has come to cast them out the tent. Recalibrate without them. Rebuild and restructure our game from the ground up. Have a more equal and competitive league where fans of several teams can genuinely look at the fixture list at the beginning of the season and have that wee kernel of a dream inside their head that "maybe this is our year". 

 

 

Great post

[Big Slim Stylee]

“UEFA plough on with its pledge to expand the Champions League and even offer a backdoor Super League-style route into the tournament, having held talks with a London-based private equity firm over the purchase of a £5 billion stake in the reformed venture.”

 

Same shit, different day then.

[benny]

It will never happen..

UEFA would block it.😄

[milky_26]

perez says the clubs have a binding contract and cannot just leave the esl

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56873448

[Footballfirst]

1 hour ago, milky_26 said:

perez says the clubs have a binding contract and cannot just leave the esl

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56873448

It will happen eventually. 

 

The latest UEFA proposal probably gives the big clubs 75% of what they want, more league games, automatic qualification places plus an insurance policy for a bad season.  They are only lacking individual clubs retaining broadcasting revenue on a game by game basis, and taking ultimate control of the competition away from UEFA.

 

It has taken 30 years to go from a straight champions only knock-out tournament, to the introduction of 2 groups of 4 teams (more games) with winners going straight to the final in 91/92, to 4 groups of 4 followed by quarter finals etc in 94/95. A couple of seasons later it was 6 groups of 4 with non-champions invited (more big teams and games) . In 99/00 it was extended to 32 teams and two group phases. Then it was 3 teams from the top nations, then 4 teams (yet more big teams).  Now what is proposed will see a 36 team tournament with 5 teams from some countries. 

 

All that time, the qualifying process has become more difficult for the smaller nations.  Only 4 teams can reach the group stages from the 2021/22 qualifying tournament on the "champions" path.  This will only increase to 5 in the proposed 36 team tournament from season 24/25.  

 

Just four or five years ago, England's big clubs proposed a revamp to the EPL, cutting the number of teams, but more significantly putting more voting power into the hands of the biggest and most successful clubs. That initiative was rejected, but has never gone away.

[Mikey1874]

22 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

It will happen eventually. 

 

The latest UEFA proposal probably gives the big clubs 75% of what they want, more league games, automatic qualification places plus an insurance policy for a bad season.  They are only lacking individual clubs retaining broadcasting revenue on a game by game basis, and taking ultimate control of the competition away from UEFA.

 

It has taken 30 years to go from a straight champions only knock-out tournament, to the introduction of 2 groups of 4 teams (more games) with winners going straight to the final in 91/92, to 4 groups of 4 followed by quarter finals etc in 94/95. A couple of seasons later it was 6 groups of 4 with non-champions invited (more big teams and games) . In 99/00 it was extended to 32 teams and two group phases. Then it was 3 teams from the top nations, then 4 teams (yet more big teams).  Now what is proposed will see a 36 team tournament with 5 teams from some countries. 

 

All that time, the qualifying process has become more difficult for the smaller nations.  Only 4 teams can reach the group stages from the 2021/22 qualifying tournament on the "champions" path.  This will only increase to 5 in the proposed 36 team tournament from season 24/25.  

 

Just four or five years ago, England's big clubs proposed a revamp to the EPL, cutting the number of teams, but more significantly putting more voting power into the hands of the biggest and most successful clubs. That initiative was rejected, but has never gone away.

 

180 games to get from 36 to 24 teams. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0268-12157d69ce2d-9f011c70f6fa-1000--new-format-for-champions-league-post-2024-everything-you-need-t/amp/

[Section Q]

17 hours ago, No Idle Talk said:

The thought of Celtic and the other lot pissing off out of Scottish Football excites me. I hope it happens. The media force feed us the line that those two clubs are the only thing keeping Scottish Football afloat. I vehemently disagree. I say those two clubs are strangling Scottish Football.

 

I am 45 years old. The last time a club outside of those two won the league, I was 9 years old. This cannot be allowed to continue. It's not healthy for our game. 

 

I want rid of them. Would winning the league with those two clubs mean more than winning it after they have gone? Yes. Absolutely it would. But it isn't going to happen. Not in the forseeable future anyway. Jesus Christ, Rangers went out of existence, got put down into the bottom division, and their zombie reincarnation has come back and won a league title before us, Aberdeen, or Hibernian, could win one. That is how big the gulf has become. It's embarrassing. 

 

My contention is that if we get rid of them we will immediately have a more competitive and watchable league. Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibernian, and maybe even two or three other clubs, will overnight become potential league champions. Fans come out to support winning teams. That's a fact. If you have a three way title race between us, Aberdeen, and Hibs, and it's coming down to the last few games of the season, all three clubs will be pulling in gates in the region of 20,000. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong and underestimates the supports these three clubs have. 

 

I've heard it said loads of times we will end up like the league of Ireland if we lose Celtic and Sevco. Pish. I don't buy that at all. The Irish league does not have one single club as big as us, Aberdeen, or Hibernian. Not one team in the Irish league can even average a 5,000 attendance over the course of a season. Most of the Scottish Premiership teams can average higher than 5,000 and Hearts, Aberdeen, and Hibernian, can average four or five times that. It's debatable whether football is even Ireland's first sport. It is beyond question that football is Scotland's national sport. We are not the league of Ireland and we will not become the league of Ireland.

 

Let the Old Firm go. I'm sick to death of them. A plague on both their 

 

[Section Q]

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-celtic-premier-league-villa-20440388

[stirlo]

I'm not convinced by the claim that the ESL or something along those lines has just been delayed by a few months. My feeling is that the clubs behind this proposal have scored a massive own goal - not just in the sense of the project falling apart within around 48 hours, but because they have drawn attention to just how unequal football is as it is - let alone the absurdity of the ESL proposal. Basically the clubs and companies behind this have not just misread the room, but have also massively overplayed their hand.

[Peakybunnet]

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56873448

 

[JDK2020]

13 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

Ok I’ll take your point and shut up after this post but I don’t think my views are simply opinion.  

No one on here has suggest that revenues will grow or even be maintained in that scenario have they? That isn’t really a credible arguement is it.  
 

And loss of revenue is a bad thing for any business, over the longterm it leads to the deterioration of the business and the product 100% of the time That isn’t an opinion- that is a fact played out across every business on earth.  
 

I do accept short term competition could increase but again I haven’t seen any argument put forward as to how that can be maintained with reduced coverage and quality. We’d be MySpace in a post Facebook world .

 

You know at the end of the day, if a British league is to happen I am sure there will be a huge scramble from the boards at hearts, hibs and Aberdeen and the other scottish clubs to make sure they are part of it - they are all business people and will make decisions based on the outlook for their business. They won’t stake the future of their club on sentiment and hope
 

As promised I’ll shut up now.

 

I don't see why you should shut up just because your opinion flies in the face of the wishful thinkers on here. A touch of realism is sadly missing from some of those taking issue with your opinions.

[Fozzyonthefence]

On 23/04/2021 at 23:48, kingantti1874 said:

It not a misconception at all, it’s an accurate view of the likely outcome in the scenario that funding is massively reduced. These journalists  are logically thinking through the consequence - and they are bang on the money. They are not basing it on what they would “like” to happen.

 

.. your view is based on nothing but a fanciful notion that a more competitive league means the league will grow !! It won’t - absolutely zero chance that will happen. The player standard will fall, the media interest will disappear and all the while we will be competing for attention with the biggest league on earth right on our doorstep, with Scottish teams participating in it. 

 

I keep hearing Wales and Ireland don’t have big clubs ? Aye they do - the only teams anyone cares about in Wales are Swansea and Cardiff, why do you think that is? 
 

Future generations won’t give a **** about hearts, Hibs Aberdeen or anyone else.  We will maintain support for a little while but the pull of  rangers and Celtic will grow exponentially, and for kids who don’t like rangers or Celtic they will support Newcastle, Liverpool, Arsenal Man U.  We will be an afterthought.
 

Ps When one of the old firm play at home they have more fans in attendance than every other fixture in Scotland combined.  There is absolutely no way it’s 50:50. Not even close to that, if anything 90% is an underestimate 

 What is this funding you speak of - how much of this is distributed between the non OF clubs?  It’s so small, it’s almost irrelevant for clubs like us, impossible to massively reduce something that doesn’t really exist.  
 

Without the OF we would also expect to qualify for Europe most seasons (in fact this would be an expectation every season) and this would likely outweigh the loss / reduction of any pishy tv deal (next season Hibs are guaranteed European football beyond Christmas which will be a nice earner for them).  
 

No reason why games couldn’t still be televised on a smaller deal - Sky show games from N Ireland and I’m sure tv audiences for games between Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen do and would continue to pull in a lot more than them. 

 

You say there’s big clubs in Wales and Ireland?  Name them, there isn’t one single club anywhere near the size of Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen playing in these leagues and you can add Northern Ireland to that too.  As for Cardiff and Swansea, they’re the only big city clubs in Wales and have always played in the English pyramid.  If you’re suggesting Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen would start getting crowds like TNS or Bala Town that’s just fanciful nonsense. 
 

Not sure what you mean about the league “growing”, there’s far too many “senior” clubs in Scotland as it is but one thing is certain  - we would have a far more competitive league.  Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, maybe Dundee Utd and others competing for the title would have healthy crowds for these teams.  Fans turn up to watch a winning team, you don’t need Rangers and Celtic or an amazing standard of football to get good crowds - we averaged over 15k in the Championship last time and some of these games were against plumbers and office workers.  If a team is winning things, fans will turn up. 
 

As for your last paragraph you’ve had a bit of a shocker there.  More than 90/10 split, are you being serious?!  By the way the survey I was referring to on the 50/50 split was just that - a survey polling both supporters and armchair fans up and down the country (so not just people who attended games) and was pretty much a 50% OF fans and 50% the rest.  But since you’re referring to just attendances, in 2019/20 the combined average attendance for Celtic and Rangers was 107,182 and the combined average for the other 40 clubs was 125,343.  So more fans actually attend the other 40 grounds than Rangers and Celtic combined. 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Fozzyonthefence

[Fozzyonthefence]

 

17 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

I am not trying to belittling anyone. Im just making points that so far no one has been able to counter other than “we are currently a big club” We are a decent sized club. 20 years after they go and all the next generation know is the British league we won’t be a big club.

 

if I this happens we have to be part of it otherwise we are in real trouble

 

 

 

 

I think all this British Super League chat is fantasy, it does the rounds every few years then disappears again.  But if it did happen, let’s not kids ourselves  - it would only be Rangers and Celtic, only they have the potential tv market - Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen being in a British league is cloud cuckoo land.  Much more likely there won’t be a Britain in a few years than some British Super League!

Edited April 25, 2021 by Fozzyonthefence

[ri Alban]

20 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

Ok I’ll take your point and shut up after this post but I don’t think my views are simply opinion.  

No one on here has suggest that revenues will grow or even be maintained in that scenario have they? That isn’t really a credible arguement is it.  
 

And loss of revenue is a bad thing for any business, over the longterm it leads to the deterioration of the business and the product 100% of the time That isn’t an opinion- that is a fact played out across every business on earth.  
 

I do accept short term competition could increase but again I haven’t seen any argument put forward as to how that can be maintained with reduced coverage and quality. We’d be MySpace in a post Facebook world .

 

You know at the end of the day, if a British league is to happen I am sure there will be a huge scramble from the boards at hearts, hibs and Aberdeen and the other scottish clubs to make sure they are part of it - they are all business people and will make decisions based on the outlook for their business. They won’t stake the future of their club on sentiment and hope
 

As promised I’ll shut up now.

Never shut up, for anyone, bud. 

[Turkishcap]

On 24/04/2021 at 03:18, No Idle Talk said:

The thought of Celtic and the other lot pissing off out of Scottish Football excites me. I hope it happens. The media force feed us the line that those two clubs are the only thing keeping Scottish Football afloat. I vehemently disagree. I say those two clubs are strangling Scottish Football.

 

I am 45 years old. The last time a club outside of those two won the league, I was 9 years old. This cannot be allowed to continue. It's not healthy for our game. 

 

I want rid of them. Would winning the league with those two clubs mean more than winning it after they have gone? Yes. Absolutely it would. But it isn't going to happen. Not in the forseeable future anyway. Jesus Christ, Rangers went out of existence, got put down into the bottom division, and their zombie reincarnation has come back and won a league title before us, Aberdeen, or Hibernian, could win one. That is how big the gulf has become. It's embarrassing. 

 

My contention is that if we get rid of them we will immediately have a more competitive and watchable league. Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibernian, and maybe even two or three other clubs, will overnight become potential league champions. Fans come out to support winning teams. That's a fact. If you have a three way title race between us, Aberdeen, and Hibs, and it's coming down to the last few games of the season, all three clubs will be pulling in gates in the region of 20,000. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong and underestimates the supports these three clubs have. 

 

I've heard it said loads of times we will end up like the league of Ireland if we lose Celtic and Sevco. Pish. I don't buy that at all. The Irish league does not have one single club as big as us, Aberdeen, or Hibernian. Not one team in the Irish league can even average a 5,000 attendance over the course of a season. Most of the Scottish Premiership teams can average higher than 5,000 and Hearts, Aberdeen, and Hibernian, can average four or five times that. It's debatable whether football is even Ireland's first sport. It is beyond question that football is Scotland's national sport. We are not the league of Ireland and we will not become the league of Ireland.

 

Let the Old Firm go. I'm sick to death of them. A plague on both their houses.

Agree 100%

[kingantti1874]

8 hours ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

 What is this funding you speak of - how much of this is distributed between the non OF clubs?  It’s so small, it’s almost irrelevant for clubs like us, impossible to massively reduce something that doesn’t really exist.  
 

Finishing third is well over £2million in prize money funded by the TV deal and finishing 12th is over £1m. This was 2019 and it had increased significantly since. Hence the desperation to end the league.  Remember that ? This of course doesn’t include cup revenues.  TV income massive % of Scottish clubs revenue. Without it - the quality of players, the ability to retain good young players and the ability to sell for descent transfers fees is gone. 
 

And you’ve pointed out that so many other clubs are pathetic at dependent on those away gates. Some of them may not even survive rangers and Celtic leaving.
 

Without the OF we would also expect to qualify for Europe most seasons (in fact this would be an expectation every season) and this would likely outweigh the loss / reduction of any pishy tv deal (next season Hibs are guaranteed European football beyond Christmas which will be a nice earner for them).  
 

As the standard will have fallen dramatically we will be in the first qualifiers and let’s be honest. Unlikely to make it out. Most teams who go through the qualifiers lose money, not earn it
 

No reason why games couldn’t still be televised on a smaller deal - Sky show games from N Ireland and I’m sure tv audiences for games between Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen do and would continue to pull in a lot more than them. 
 

There would be no incentive for sky or any other company to pay anything other than a token amount. They have what they want. A British League with the old firm in it. It’s been demonstrated time and time again they don’t care about the rest 

 

You say there’s big clubs in Wales and Ireland?  Name them there isn’t one single club anywhere near the size of Hearts (The remainder are no where near the size of hearts becuase they all support Swansea or Cardiff. You keep making this point - I don’t disagree, but with the inevitable drop in standards and the biggest league in earth taking place within our own border - Theres isn’t a bit of me thinks we will be able to maintain it. - hearts will shrink ) , Hibs or Aberdeen playing in these leagues and you can add Northern Ireland to that too(NI another league which suffers becuase their population support teams in an other league) .  As for Cardiff and Swansea, they’re the only big city clubs in Wales and have always played in the English pyramid (Hence why the other teams are an irrelevance).  If you’re suggesting Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen would start getting crowds like TNS or Bala Town that’s just fanciful nonsense. (As I’ve said short term it won’t change, but over time people will drift to the far better quality product. The far better marketed product.  Revenues will continue to fall, as will the standard making it harder and harder to generate any sort of interest) 
 

Not sure what you mean about the league “growing”, there’s far too many “senior” clubs in Scotland as it is but one thing is certain  - we would have a far more competitive league ( the championship is more competitive isn’t it - doesn’t mean anyone actually cares do they - I don’t think I’d be much more excited beating Aberdeen to  the SPL including part time Hamilton 10 times ) .  Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, maybe Dundee Utd and others competing for the title would have healthy crowds for these teams (for a wee while maybe).  Fans turn up to watch a winning team, you don’t need Rangers and Celtic or an amazing standard of football to get good crowds (you kind of do, I’m not aware of any crappy leagues on earth of any huge significance)  - we averaged over 15k in the Championship last time and some of these games were against plumbers and office workers.  If a team is winning things, fans will turn up. (For a one off season yes - but after  20 years of playing in a deteriorating league, with the standard of players getting worse and worse and worse, and the next generation more interested in the big league next door?) 
 

As for your last paragraph you’ve had a bit of a shocker there.  More than 90/10 split, are you being serious?!  By the way the survey I was referring to on the 50/50 split was just that - a survey polling both supporters and armchair fans up and down the country (so not just people who attended games) and was pretty much a 50% OF fans and 50% the rest.  But since you’re referring to just attendances, in 2019/20 the combined average attendance for Celtic and Rangers was 107,182 and the combined average for the other 40 clubs was 125,343.  So more fans actually attend the other 40 grounds than Rangers and Celtic combined. (I’ve not had a shocker at any point, in terms of match day attendance rangers and Celtic are limited by capacity, the other teams games are half empty. I would be interested to see this survey - It certainly doesn’t align to what we see in the real world - certainly from an “active fan perspective” 

 

———

 

As I said previously - if rangers and Celtic leave the owners of the other biggish premier league teams will show how desperate they are to be part of it / or some equivalent like an Atlantic league- their logic will be aligned to mine I guarantee.

 

 

 

 

[kingantti1874]

4 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Never shut up, for anyone, bud. 

just thought I’d give it a rest and let others take the stage 👍🏻 I do tend to drone on a bit

[Rudy T]

It’s not so much the OF being in Scottish football it’s the entire system being rigged to facilitate them winning everything and running the league that’s the problem. The whole game needs an overhaul and more teams at least given a fair shot at challenging them for silverware.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

just thought I’d give it a rest and let others take the stage 👍🏻 I do tend to drone on a bit

We all do.  So as Norman Stanley Fletcher once said. 👍

[JFK-1]

1 hour ago, Rudy T said:

It’s not so much the OF being in Scottish football it’s the entire system being rigged to facilitate them winning everything and running the league that’s the problem. The whole game needs an overhaul and more teams at least given a fair shot at challenging them for silverware.

 

I don't grasp where you're coming from. What sort of system would negate their overwhelming financial advantage?

[Rudy T]

6 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I don't grasp where you're coming from. What sort of system would negate their overwhelming financial advantage?

A fair distribution of the money for a start. Them ‘donating’ a % of the champs league money to grass roots. A ban on taking academy players from other teams. A change to the voting system. A spilt of gate money. If they were serious about improving our game they’d agree but they won’t.

[JFK-1]

4 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

A fair distribution of the money for a start. Them ‘donating’ a % of the champs league money to grass roots. A ban on taking academy players from other teams. A change to the voting system. A spilt of gate money. If they were serious about improving our game they’d agree but they won’t.

 

That's impossible in any league. As for CL money if anybody it should be up to UEFA to donate a percentage to leagues of competing teams.

Taking kids from other teams can't fly other. It would ultimately amount to kids being held prisoner at clubs they didn't want to be with. It happens to everybody including the OF. Think Billy Gilmour to Chelsea.

Voting system sure but that wouldn't change the overwhelming dominance. And sharing gate money probably couldn't get through law courts far less footballing authorities.

And if you think about it could make competing in the league even harder for a team like Hearts. The ones who would benefit the most would be bottom half like Hamilton etc. Do you think Hearts would want to give up half their gate to Hamilton who brought along about 50 fans?

Let's say the OF have an average gate of 50,000. And let's further say an average ticket price were £20. So you're talking  a half share of a million pound gate. 

Visit each of them twice a season and Hamilton are picking up £2 million a season from them alone while they and all the other bottom half are taking half of Hearts gate too.

And the OF would still have a hugely significant financial advantage while the bottom half would be far more capable of competing with Hearts. Gates were shared until 1980. And prior to that the OF were still dominating the league and cups.

The sheep as an example won 2 of their 4 league titles after gate sharing had been stopped. In my view Bosman was a bigger disaster for the non giant clubs.

[Fozzyonthefence]

8 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

 

 

I think I’m going to have a rest from this one after this too.  We’re clearly going to agree to disagree.  Most of what you posted is just your opinion rather than facts though, as are some of my points. 

 

As for the facts, yes we’re clearly going to get less tv money but if the cost of getting rid of Rangers and Celtic is only a tv deal circa £1m less then I’m in, where do we sign up for that? Well worth it, we just need to cut our cloth accordingly but I believe our crowds would go up and not just in the short term if we were regularly competing for the league title. 
 

Scottish football is pointless now with the OF - who wants a league set up that only 2 clubs can win?  It’s a laughing stock and to be honest bring in VAR for us and I’ll probably be done with it. 
 

Re the Welsh clubs, I don’t think you’re really grasping this - they’ve only ever had 2 big clubs and they’ve always played in England.  They’ve never had any other big clubs that play in the Welsh league and lost thousands of fans because of this - the clubs in the Welsh league have always been diddy part time clubs more like East Fife or Cowdenbeath than Hearts or Hibs so the comparison with their league is irrelevant and suggesting we would lose loads of fans is pure speculation. 
 

And more of the facts - to the attendances you were miles off with that, that’s why I said you had a shocker there.  You said that the split was likely more than 90% OF fans to less than 10% non OF fans.  As I proved, that was nonsense and less than 50% attend games at Ibrox or Parkhead.  Now you’re backtracking and trying to say it’s because they are limited due to capacity - well that might make it nearer a 50/50 split but probably not much difference, certainly not for Celtic who have thousands of empty seats at most games.   
 

There’s actually a bit of me that likes the idea of us playing in a British league (and if you’d offered me that as a way out of Scottish football last summer I would have bitten your hand off) but for me the negatives outweigh the positives of playing in a league without the OF.  Plus I’m realistic enough to realise there is absolutely zero chance of us being invited to join a British league (which I don’t think will happen anyway).  
 

However, for me, the worst of the 3 alternatives is to carry on playing in a Scottish league which the OF will carry on winning for eternity.  I’m in my fifties now so I’ve lived through the 80s, a decade when we had a strong national team and even stronger club teams which were winning and getting to European finals and semi finals.  A decade where we had 4 different league winners (so nearly 5, so exactly half of the league were able to compete for the title) - what we have now is pish in comparison but maybe for younger fans it’s not as bad or demoralising because they’ve never seen proper competition in Scottish football, I don’t know, but for me it’s utter shite and at an all time low. 

 

You mentioned that without the OF the quality in players / football would deteriorate.   Well, I’ve no idea how old you are but this is already happening WITH the OF.  We get way more in tv money now compared to the 80s yet the standard of Scottish football continues to deteriorate, almost on a yearly basis, it really is so poor now, would we even notice if it got a wee bit worse?!  
 

Maybe a more relevant question we should be looking at is how did we manage to do so well without tv money and get back to what we were doing then?  I know we’re never going to get back to our clubs competing with the top clubs in Europe (due to the obscene money they get from TV) but we need to address how we can’t compete with clubs now from countries that we used to take for granted that we’d beat.  

[kingantti1874]

27 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

I think I’m going to have a rest from this one after this too.  We’re clearly going to agree to disagree.  Most of what you posted is just your opinion rather than facts though, as are some of my points. 

 

As for the facts, yes we’re clearly going to get less tv money but if the cost of getting rid of Rangers and Celtic is only a tv deal circa £1m less then I’m in, where do we sign up for that? Well worth it, we just need to cut our cloth accordingly but I believe our crowds would go up and not just in the short term if we were regularly competing for the league title. 
 

Scottish football is pointless now with the OF - who wants a league set up that only 2 clubs can win?  It’s a laughing stock and to be honest bring in VAR for us and I’ll probably be done with it. 
 

Re the Welsh clubs, I don’t think you’re really grasping this - they’ve only ever had 2 big clubs and they’ve always played in England.  They’ve never had any other big clubs that play in the Welsh league and lost thousands of fans because of this - the clubs in the Welsh league have always been diddy part time clubs more like East Fife or Cowdenbeath than Hearts or Hibs so the comparison with their league is irrelevant and suggesting we would lose loads of fans is pure speculation. 
 

And more of the facts - to the attendances you were miles off with that, that’s why I said you had a shocker there.  You said that the split was likely more than 90% OF fans to less than 10% non OF fans.  As I proved, that was nonsense and less than 50% attend games at Ibrox or Parkhead.  Now you’re backtracking and trying to say it’s because they are limited due to capacity - well that might make it nearer a 50/50 split but probably not much difference, certainly not for Celtic who have thousands of empty seats at most games.   
 

There’s actually a bit of me that likes the idea of us playing in a British league (and if you’d offered me that as a way out of Scottish football last summer I would have bitten your hand off) but for me the negatives outweigh the positives of playing in a league without the OF.  Plus I’m realistic enough to realise there is absolutely zero chance of us being invited to join a British league (which I don’t think will happen anyway).  
 

However, for me, the worst of the 3 alternatives is to carry on playing in a Scottish league which the OF will carry on winning for eternity.  I’m in my fifties now so I’ve lived through the 80s, a decade when we had a strong national team and even stronger club teams which were winning and getting to European finals and semi finals.  A decade where we had 4 different league winners (so nearly 5, so exactly half of the league were able to compete for the title) - what we have now is pish in comparison but maybe for younger fans it’s not as bad or demoralising because they’ve never seen proper competition in Scottish football, I don’t know, but for me it’s utter shite and at an all time low. 

 

You mentioned that without the OF the quality in players / football would deteriorate.   Well, I’ve no idea how old you are but this is already happening WITH the OF.  We get way more in tv money now compared to the 80s yet the standard of Scottish football continues to deteriorate, almost on a yearly basis, it really is so poor now, would we even notice if it got a wee bit worse?!  
 

Maybe a more relevant question we should be looking at is how did we manage to do so well without tv money and get back to what we were doing then?  I know we’re never going to get back to our clubs competing with the top clubs in Europe (due to the obscene money they get from TV) but we need to address how we can’t compete with clubs now from countries that we used to take for granted that we’d beat.  

I’m 41. The decline started in 1990 with Sky’s investment in the EPL. Although we clung on for a little bit the disparity in finances broke the Scottish game. 
 

if you had told me in 1989 hearts could t compete with Bournemouth for players I’d have pissed myself laughing (figuratively speaking obv because I was 10/

or 11)

 

you are correct in that we need to let this one lie, we clearly aren’t coming from the same place on this and I don’t think either of us will manage to convince the other.  
 

My order of preference 

 

1. British League we are part of and have a path to grow. the club. I see no reasons given the support, and our location why we couldn’t eventually do a wolves with the right backing. 

 

2. Some sort of Atlantic league if option 1 isn’t possible.

 

3. No Change. Not great as you have pointed out.

 

4. The British league happens and we stay behind. Would be fine for a few years but this option worries me massively in that I firmly the long term stature  of the club will be at risk.  
 

anyway - take it easy bud. 

Edited April 25, 2021 by kingantti1874

[OTT]

23 hours ago, Peakybunnet said:

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56873448

 

 

I can't stand that old *******. 

 

Every aspect of Real is built around glory hunting and tourist fans. 

 

Its plastic and soulless. 

[Homme]

Aren't Belgium and the Netherlands creating a new Superleague?

 

Whilst I agree it's unlikely to happen in Britain it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

 

As someone said earlier English teams won't benefit so it'll likely be a non starter.

 

Personally id love to see it. 

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Anyone else think that Perez looks like the new Oompah Loompah out of Willy Wonka?

 

 

Florintino Perez                                   Oompah Loompah

[vegas-voss]

9 hours ago, Homme said:

Aren't Belgium and the Netherlands creating a new Superleague?

 

Whilst I agree it's unlikely to happen in Britain it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

 

As someone said earlier English teams won't benefit so it'll likely be a non starter.

 

Personally id love to see it. 

 

They are quite happy for cross border leagues as long as it ain't impacting their own tournament.Bastions of the game Uefa are not

[Nookie Bear]

I have no idea really if the old firm leaving will benefit the Scottish game, or ruin it, but it is ridiculous for us to carry on like this and change is required. 

 

[ri Alban]

12 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

I’m 41. The decline started in 1990 with Sky’s investment in the EPL. Although we clung on for a little bit the disparity in finances broke the Scottish game. 
 

if you had told me in 1989 hearts could t compete with Bournemouth for players I’d have pissed myself laughing (figuratively speaking obv because I was 10/

or 11)

 

you are correct in that we need to let this one lie, we clearly aren’t coming from the same place on this and I don’t think either of us will manage to convince the other.  
 

My order of preference 

 

1. British League we are part of and have a path to grow. the club. I see no reasons given the support, and our location why we couldn’t eventually do a wolves with the right backing. 

 

2. Some sort of Atlantic league if option 1 isn’t possible.

 

3. No Change. Not great as you have pointed out.

 

4. The British league happens and we stay behind. Would be fine for a few years but this option worries me massively in that I firmly the long term stature  of the club will be at risk.  
 

anyway - take it easy bud. 

Just a question. Where does independence put the idea of a British league? Can it work or does it kill it stone dead. 

I'd rather Scotland kept its  league whether independent or not. But I think we need to reduce it to 2 divisions of 18 or 16. With regional Pyramids below. 

Edited April 26, 2021 by ri Alban

[JFK-1]

12 hours ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Maybe a more relevant question we should be looking at is how did we manage to do so well without tv money and get back to what we were doing then?  I know we’re never going to get back to our clubs competing with the top clubs in Europe (due to the obscene money they get from TV) but we need to address how we can’t compete with clubs now from countries that we used to take for granted that we’d beat.  

 

Obviously money is a major factor in the current struggles of domestic Scottish football. But beyond that our kids just don't play the game anymore. Or at least at nothing like the prevalence they did when I was growing up. When I was growing up almost every boy played probably to the extent of kicking a ball for at least some period of time almost every day.

They would play anywhere. Any patch of grass or even flat concrete or tarmac. Throw down a couple of jumpers and you have goal posts. They would play in the street again fashioning goalposts in some manner. Sometimes merely keeping the ball up heading it to each other.

But they played almost all the time and especially so during school summer holidays. They don't do that anymore which is exactly why the standing of our international team has fallen too. Regular appearances at world cups etc. were taken for granted.

We had Scottish players littering the top English sides. Think Liverpool alone with Souness, Dalglish, Hansen etc dominating Europe. Nottingham Forest winning the European cup in two consecutive years littered with Scottish players.

The last time Forest won it in 1980 there were 4 Scots in the starting 11 and a 5th on the bench. We were producing entire generations of that type of quality. We're not now because our kids simply aren't playing like they once did.

[Mysterion]

11 hours ago, Homme said:

Aren't Belgium and the Netherlands creating a new Superleague?

 

Whilst I agree it's unlikely to happen in Britain it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

 

As someone said earlier English teams won't benefit so it'll likely be a non starter.

 

Personally id love to see it. 

 

They are. 

The main difference between this and a British league is apparently money and competition.

 

In the Belgian/Netherlands league they are aiming to expand leagues and create a bigger TV deal in the hope that Dutch/Belgian football becomes stronger in European competition so there was less resistance over time to the idea.

 

Any cross UK competition is a by product of that decision but gambled on by those in Europe that English clubs will be resisted to change. 

 

 

[Rogue Daddy]

23 hours ago, Rudy T said:

It’s not so much the OF being in Scottish football it’s the entire system being rigged to facilitate them winning everything and running the league that’s the problem. The whole game needs an overhaul and more teams at least given a fair shot at challenging them for silverware.

I keep saying this as well.... and it's a pathetic notion, but if all was 'fair and equal' at the start of a season (FAIR and EQUAL, which is the way it should be), it would make a difference with regards to other teams getting just that little bit closer to the OF. But we can't have that can we? A challenge (no matter how small) to OF dominance... the SPFL just won't allow it.

[Cruyff]

Maybe St Johnstone should go. They might win more trophies this season than anyone else. 

[Rogue Daddy]

1 hour ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Obviously money is a major factor in the current struggles of domestic Scottish football. But beyond that our kids just don't play the game anymore. Or at least at nothing like the prevalence they did when I was growing up. When I was growing up almost every boy played probably to the extent of kicking a ball for at least some period of time almost every day.

They would play anywhere. Any patch of grass or even flat concrete or tarmac. Throw down a couple of jumpers and you have goal posts. They would play in the street again fashioning goalposts in some manner. Sometimes merely keeping the ball up heading it to each other.

But they played almost all the time and especially so during school summer holidays. They don't do that anymore which is exactly why the standing of our international team has fallen too. Regular appearances at world cups etc. were taken for granted.

We had Scottish players littering the top English sides. Think Liverpool alone with Souness, Dalglish, Hansen etc dominating Europe. Nottingham Forest winning the European cup in two consecutive years littered with Scottish players.

The last time Forest won it in 1980 there were 4 Scots in the starting 11 and a 5th on the bench. We were producing entire generations of that type of quality. We're not now because our kids simply aren't playing like they once did.

I think you can apportion blame for this at the Bosman ruling (and by extension - the 3 foreigner rule). Since then, we've seen an influx of mediocre foreign players (and a lot of good ones), but it's been to the detriment of producing our own (Scottish) youth prospects. It's no coincidence that the last time Scotland qualified for a major championship, we still had the 3 foreigner rule 'in play'.

 

Hopefully this will change (to a degree) post Brexit but, IMO, for any club to prosper both financially and competitively, there has to be a sound youth policy operating. It's going to THE most important aspect of our club, going forward (again IMO) - and something we have to get right.

[XB52]

On 25/04/2021 at 01:48, JDK2020 said:

 

I don't see why you should shut up just because your opinion flies in the face of the wishful thinkers on here. A touch of realism is sadly missing from some of those taking issue with your opinions.

Can't speak for anyone else but my issue was him passing of his opinions as fact. Nobody knows what would happen if the bigots leave. 

[Unknown user]

13 hours ago, Homme said:

Aren't Belgium and the Netherlands creating a new Superleague?

 

Whilst I agree it's unlikely to happen in Britain it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

 

As someone said earlier English teams won't benefit so it'll likely be a non starter.

 

Personally id love to see it. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mysterion said:

They are. 

The main difference between this and a British league is apparently money and competition.

 

In the Belgian/Netherlands league they are aiming to expand leagues and create a bigger TV deal in the hope that Dutch/Belgian football becomes stronger in European competition so there was less resistance over time to the idea.

 

Any cross UK competition is a by product of that decision but gambled on by those in Europe that English clubs will be resisted to change. 

 

 

 

Is it happening this time?

 

The Belgians seem to talk about it every couple of years but I haven't seen much enthusiasm from the Dutch over the years.

[Mikey1874]

Italy dealing with the structure around preventing this. Though Juventus are punishing themselves. 

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56892039

[kingantti1874]

12 hours ago, XB52 said:

Can't speak for anyone else but my issue was him passing of his opinions as fact. Nobody knows what would happen if the bigots leave. 

Most of the things I’ve posted are a fact and not an opinion.  

 

Revenues will fall - I don’t think a single person has challenged that at any point have they?

 

If revenues fall then it is a fact that the standard of player will fall due to affordability ! If the standard of player falls then it becomes less attractive to watch and thus harder to attract fans. 

 

All of the above are facts, 

 

The only opinion being offered isn’t mine - it’s that that increased competitiveness will be able offset the damage.  As I’ve said - maybe this is true in the short term.. over 20 years? 

[XB52]

7 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

Most of the things I’ve posted are a fact and not an opinion.  

 

Revenues will fall - I don’t think a single person has challenged that at any point have they?

 

If revenues fall then it is a fact that the standard of player will fall due to affordability ! If the standard of player falls then it becomes less attractive to watch and thus harder to attract fans. 

 

All of the above are facts, 

 

The only opinion being offered isn’t mine - it’s that that increased competitiveness will be able offset the damage.  As I’ve said - maybe this is true in the short term.. over 20 years? 

Again just your opinion. As others have said the meagre money we get at the moment mostly goes to the of anyway. Crowds should go up for many of our top clubs to offset that (I accept that we have limited scope for that). And please don't try and say that was the only opinion you passed off as fact. Our league would never fall to the level of the league of Wales IMO. Your OPINION is different and that's fine. 

[kingantti1874]

The fact that most of the money goes to the old firm is of little relevance.
 

Across all competitions TV money equates to 7-figure numbers for all top league teams.  Hibs for example will have picked up circa £3million in TV funded prize money this season if they finish third (£2.5m ish) and get to cup final. In a normal season that would be circa 30% of their T/O.  then as many have pointed out we have tinpot teams who actually rely on the old firm for gates.

 

I don’t think that is opinion to say across the leagues revenues would fall and that would hurt the standard of players

Edited April 27, 2021 by kingantti1874

[Bazzas right boot]

On 24/04/2021 at 12:21, vegas-voss said:

It's never ever going to happen anyway basically 4 teams are going to have to give up their place in the EPL.Two of which are being asked to let the Old Firm replace them to bring the league to 18 teams.

 

 

Is the english voting system not changed tho, 6/8 teams can dictate to the rest? 

 

It's not the majority thing they has before, not 100% sure of the detail, but they basically pushed through a voting system with a bribe this year, used covid to their advantage. 

 

The top teams might welcome the change, the middle and lower teams won't and the championship teams will get ignored. 

 

If the Belgium / Dutch merger goes ahead it does make things interesting. 

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

Reading up on Arsenal potentially being bought by the spotify guy, makes me so proud that we are (eventually) going to be fan owned. I will never have to worry that my club is being run for profit or used as some millionaire's toy (although Budge is getting every last ounce out of it). The day that the club is officially handed over will have to go down as one the greatest days in the club's history.

[Mikey1874]

Might be a different game to watch later

 

 

[Tazio]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

Might be a different game to watch later

 

 

Spoilt children pretending it’s all about the ESL. I’d have more sympathy for the dislike of the owners if they’d tightened the purse strings and didn’t pay big transfer fees or wages to players. 

[Mikey1874]

21 minutes ago, Tazio said:

Spoilt children pretending it’s all about the ESL. I’d have more sympathy for the dislike of the owners if they’d tightened the purse strings and didn’t pay big transfer fees or wages to players. 

 

£1 billion taken out of the club though. 

[Tazio]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

£1 billion taken out of the club though. 

It’s a double edged sword for clubs with owners who buy them as a business venture. They’ll put the money in but they want their profit as well. American business people tend to not buy businesses out a place of charity.