Fan ownership to be rewarded by the Scottish Government.........

[Sid]

19 minutes ago, The Wrinkly Ninja said:

I don’t have a problem with the funding or the timing.

 

I am not sure why there would be any objection to the timing. It’s an announcement in an election manifesto. The election is in May.

 

Has there really been a need for the last 16 years? No there hasn’t. No clubs have gone to the wall because supporters have not been able to raise funds.

 

Is it more likely to be needed now? Maybe? And it will only be accessed by those who need it. The current economic situation could result in less private funding into football clubs and a lessened ability for supporters organisations to raise emergency capital to save their clubs.
 

If it is used correctly and only correctly I don’t see the problem.
 

 

We went to the wall. What help did we get from the Government. 

[Roxy Hearts]

6 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

Perhaps if they confronted sectarianism within football head on they may get some respect. 

The unionists were against the OBFA! The SNP have tried to address it but when you have teams and supporters of a certain persuasion in Glasgow they've a tough job! Unfortunately Scottish society has ingrained sectarianism all under the Union.

[Pap]

Football brings a lot to the economy in many ways. Nothing wrong with offering a bit towards its security.

[letsalllaughathobos]

Anyone voting snp needs there heads checked, a absolute abortion of a party.

[GinRummy]

19 minutes ago, letsalllaughathobos said:

Anyone voting snp needs there heads checked, a absolute abortion of a party.

That’s me convinced. Who we voting for instead?

[manaliveits105]

33 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

The unionists were against the OBFA! The SNP have tried to address it but when you have teams and supporters of a certain persuasion in Glasgow they've a tough job! Unfortunately Scottish society has ingrained sectarianism all under the Union.

The SG have done SFA to tackle sectarianism it’s a vote loser 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

The SG have done SFA to tackle sectarianism it’s a vote loser 

Did you read the post you replied to?

The OBFA should have been a catch all that shut the "we sing folk songs and arent sectarian" pish from Celtic fans.

The clue was in the title of the act,  but idiots like Labours James Kelly sought to kill it from the outset.  

[Roxy Hearts]

James Kelly is an idiot and fairly representative of his audience! 

[Pap]

4 hours ago, letsalllaughathobos said:

Anyone voting snp needs there heads checked, a absolute abortion of a party.

 

I didnt vote for any party but based on your (no doubt troll post) what utter states the other parties must be in to get continiously beat by the SNP? 

[ri Alban]

11 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

The SG have done SFA to tackle sectarianism it’s a vote loser 

 

 

 

The brought in the OBFA and Kelly(Celtic) and Adam Tomkins? (Rangers) reversed it when the SNP lost their majority. 

 

 

 

Personally, if a club can't run, Feck them. I used think the reverse, but this could be unaffordable if clubs take the piss. 

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

9 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Did you read the post you replied to?

The OBFA should have been a catch all that shut the "we sing folk songs and arent sectarian" pish from Celtic fans.

The clue was in the title of the act,  but idiots like Labours James Kelly sought to kill it from the outset.  

[ri Alban]

I still don't see the abolition of separate schools in any party manifesto. Which is so disappointing, because it would be a good start in tackling this shite. 

[manaliveits105]

snp in power for 14 years and sectarianism is as bad as ever with the arse cheeks - that is another failure of government notwithstanding ONE attempt in the 14 years

[Konrad von Carstein]

46 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

snp in power for 14 years and sectarianism is as bad as ever with the - that is another failure of government notwithstanding ONE attempt in the 14 years

If only they played in an organised league with rules etc that could enforce pumishmemts if fans of said "cheeks" stepped out of line. I mean points deductions and OF games behind closed doors might fucus minds,  even neanderthal ones.

Goverment legislation cant be the sole point of responsibility for issues like sectarianism,  especially when said legislation is undermined by MSPs playing to thier galleries.

 

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

snp in power for 14 years and sectarianism is as bad as ever with the arse cheeks - that is another failure of government notwithstanding ONE attempt in the 14 years

Labour ran scotland for nigh on 50 years. Sectaranism was at its zenith between 1969-1990. Check it out.

[Seymour M Hersh]

On 16/04/2021 at 11:10, Roxy Hearts said:

Me too. Need to get a life. Scots vote for the SNP so get on with it! We don't vote for Tories in London but we have to get on with it. 

 

Correct you vote for Conservatives to be MP's to represent constituencies in Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Glasgow etc etc. Londoners vote for Conservatives in London. 

[Roxy Hearts]

7 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Correct you vote for Conservatives to be MP's to represent constituencies in Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Glasgow etc etc. Londoners vote for Conservatives in London. 

You know exactly what I meant!

[Seymour M Hersh]

23 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

You know exactly what I meant!

 

That doesn't make what you were meaning correct. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Seymour M Hersh

[Roxy Hearts]

3 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

That doesn't make what you were meaning correct. 

Scotland didn't vote Tory got Tory. Scotland voted SNP in Scottish elections and got SNP. This is the reason I want independence, get the governments we vote for. I don't want Westminster scorched earth policies. My vote is up for grabs in an independent Scotland and would lean towards centre right. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Scotland didn't vote Tory got Tory. Scotland voted SNP in Scottish elections and got SNP. This is the reason I want independence, get the governments we vote for. I don't want Westminster scorched earth policies. My vote is up for grabs in an independent Scotland and would lean towards centre right. 

 

Scotland, England, Wales, and NI are not entities in UK elections or referendums.  A fact the SNP seem to have difficulty understanding, when they trot out that shite about Scotland not voting for Brexit etc.

[Roxy Hearts]

8 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Scotland, England, Wales, and NI are not entities in UK elections or referendums.  A fact the SNP seem to have difficulty understanding, when they trot out that shite about Scotland not voting for Brexit etc.

So we just have to get on with it. There's a democratic deficit in these Isles! 

[frankblack]

50 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

So we just have to get on with it. There's a democratic deficit in these Isles! 

 

No there isn't.  We voted to remain in the UK, as the alternative is a disaster that doesn't bear thinking about.

 

The only deficit is an economic one on the case for independence.

 

There is a reason the SNP are not willing to explain their economic case for independence, and that is because it is idealistic without detail and doesn't stand up to scrutiny, particularly highlighted post-pandemic and post-Brexit.  Trying to mislead the public into voting for this will spell economic disaster and is dishonest, don't you think?

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Scotland didn't vote Tory got Tory. Scotland voted SNP in Scottish elections and got SNP. This is the reason I want independence, get the governments we vote for. I don't want Westminster scorched earth policies. My vote is up for grabs in an independent Scotland and would lean towards centre right. 

 

I didn't vote Green but got Green deciding on policy. 

[Ainsley Harriott]

On 16/04/2021 at 17:46, Scallywag said:

This seems in line with other SNP policies trying to encourage community involvement.

 

Better than stockpiling nuclear missiles or handing out billions of public money to their pals.

😂😂

[Seymour M Hersh]

Are they going to have a round of applause in the upturned boat led by Patrick Harvie? 

[Roxy Hearts]

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

No there isn't.  We voted to remain in the UK, as the alternative is a disaster that doesn't bear thinking about.

 

The only deficit is an economic one on the case for independence.

 

There is a reason the SNP are not willing to explain their economic case for independence, and that is because it is idealistic without detail and doesn't stand up to scrutiny, particularly highlighted post-pandemic and post-Brexit.  Trying to mislead the public into voting for this will spell economic disaster and is dishonest, don't you think?

In your opinion!

[manaliveits105]

39 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

Are they going to have a round of applause in the upturned boat led by Patrick Harvie? 

Harvie is a classless ham shank 

[frankblack]

9 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

In your opinion!

 

So you think an independent Scotland wouldn't be an economic basket case with eye watering post-pandemic debt share before we even talk about currency etc? 😳

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

So you think an independent Scotland wouldn't be an economic basket case with eye watering post-pandemic debt share before we even talk about currency etc? 😳

No I don't. No currency has any real value does it? I've been to Turkey where the American dollar is accepted! It's all shuffling about and false economics. Look at Westminster, 2 trillion in debt and a massive deficit. Can you give me an economic plan for the UK, in fact I demand it for let's say 2 years. 

[frankblack]

37 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

No I don't. No currency has any real value does it? I've been to Turkey where the American dollar is accepted! It's all shuffling about and false economics. Look at Westminster, 2 trillion in debt and a massive deficit. Can you give me an economic plan for the UK, in fact I demand it for let's say 2 years. 

 

Ok - so Scotland takes on the U.S. dollar.  What will be the central bank to guarantee government borrowing?

 

This 2 trillion debt you mentioned will get apportioned to Scotland, so how do they plan on managing it?

[Unknown user]

29 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

This 2 trillion debt you mentioned will get apportioned to Scotland, so how do they plan on managing it?

Can you list the precedents that make this something you can state as fact?

 

And if this debt is such a massive issue would we not be better away from the irresponsible governmental system that created it and continues to allow it to grow?

[frankblack]

24 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Can you list the precedents that make this something you can state as fact?

 

And if this debt is such a massive issue would we not be better away from the irresponsible governmental system that created it and continues to allow it to grow?

 

So you think Scotland can walk away without paying its share of the national debt?  I don't need to prove a precedent here, and for Scotland to walk away from the debt would mean they would become a bad debtor and not credit worthy.

 

Prove me wrong.

Edited April 17, 2021 by frankblack

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

So you think Scotland can walk away without paying its share of the national debt?  I don't need to prove a precedent here, and for Scotland to walk away from the debt would mean they would become a bad debtor and not credit worthy.

 

Prove me wrong.

 

Scotland would be an entirely new legal entity, in what way would it become a bad debtor and not credit worthy? We'd have no legal or moral obligation to pay any of the debt built up by a different legal entity, and in fact while the UK has missed debt repayments a few times in recent years and had its credit rating downgraded as a result, an independent Scotland wouldn't be affected by Westminster's track rating and it's credit rating would be based on its first world economy, according to Standards & Poor's.

 

The reason I asked about precedent is because I know it simply doesn't work that way. In all the many many country break ups, union divisions and border changes the world has seen in the last few centuries I'm aware of one example of this happening, decades ago in Africa IIRC, a few billion. That one exception aside I've never heard of another.

[frankblack]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

Scotland would be an entirely new legal entity, in what way would it become a bad debtor and not credit worthy? We'd have no legal or moral obligation to pay any of the debt built up by a different legal entity, and in fact while the UK has missed debt repayments a few times in recent years and had its credit rating downgraded as a result, an independent Scotland wouldn't be affected by Westminster's track rating and it's credit rating would be based on its first world economy, according to Standards & Poor's.

 

The reason I asked about precedent is because I know it simply doesn't work that way. In all the many many country break ups, union divisions and border changes the world has seen in the last few centuries I'm aware of one example of this happening, decades ago in Africa IIRC, a few billion. That one exception aside I've never heard of another.

 

Wrong.

 

Scotland would become a new legal entity when it has agreed its separation terms, which includes dividing up the national debt.

 

The national debt belongs to all the nations in the UK, or do you think furlough was funded by council tax in Scotland, for example?

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Wrong.

 

Scotland would become a new legal entity when it has agreed its separation terms, which includes dividing up the national debt.

 

The national debt belongs to all the nations in the UK, or do you think furlough was funded by council tax in Scotland, for example?

 

Oh right, so if Scotland agrees to take on loads of debt we'll be legally obliged to take on loads of debt?

Well duh!

 

But there's no reason to expect that would happen. It doesn't normally, why would it now? The USSR's debt belonged to all of the Soviet socialist republics, how much did Lithuania take?

[frankblack]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

Oh right, so if Scotland agrees to take on loads of debt we'll be legally obliged to take on loads of debt?

Well duh!

 

So you don't accept that Scotland should pay its debts?  Don't you think that will have consequences to its credit worthiness?

 

I'm curious as to why you think these debts don't belong to Scotland?  Please clarify as to why the likes of furlough payments for Scottish workers are not a liability of Scotland?

 

Just now, Smithee said:

But there's no reason to expect that would happen. It doesn't normally, why would it now? The USSR's debt belonged to all of the Soviet socialist republics, how much did Lithuania take?

 

I'm stunned you think that the USSR is a comparable example to the UK.  A glowing example of democracy in action there.

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

So you don't accept that Scotland should pay its debts?  Don't you think that will have consequences to its credit worthiness?

 

I'm curious as to why you think these debts don't belong to Scotland?  Please clarify as to why the likes of furlough payments for Scottish workers are not a liability of Scotland?

 

 

I'm stunned you think that the USSR is a comparable example to the UK.  A glowing example of democracy in action there.

 

Scotland doesn't have any debts and there are many international legal precedents of unions breaking up that back up my view. 

 

We can pretend your comment about the USSR is relevant but let's go with Slovakia then - how much national debt did they take from Czechoslovakia? How much national debt did Belgium take from Netherlands? How much national debt did Slovenia take from Yugoslavia?

 

Why would Scotland's situation be different from the centuries established international norm?

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Scotland doesn't have any debts and there are many international legal precedents of unions breaking up that back up my view. 

 

Yes it does, I've given you a clear example from the pandemic.

 

Scotland is part of the UK entity which has 2 trillion in debts.

 

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

We can pretend your comment about the USSR is relevant but let's go with Slovakia then - how much national debt did they take from Czechoslovakia? How much national debt did Belgium take from Netherlands? How much national debt did Slovenia take from Yugoslavia?

 

Why would Scotland's situation be different from the centuries established international norm?

 

Not remotely relevant giving eastern block and old historic examples.

 

The national debt is for the nation.  Please explain why England, Wales, and NI should pay Scotland's liabilities so Scotland can walk away?

 

Are you one of these people that doesn't believe in paying your debts?

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Yes it does, I've given you a clear example from the pandemic.

 

Scotland is part of the UK entity which has 2 trillion in debts.

 

 

Not remotely relevant giving eastern block and old historic examples.

 

The national debt is for the nation.  Please explain why England, Wales, and NI should pay Scotland's liabilities so Scotland can walk away?

 

Are you one of these people that doesn't believe in paying your debts?

So you have nothing to back it up, you just think we should be saddled with masses of debt that Westminster policy got the UK into.

 

You have no precedents, no examples, no legal justification, it's just what you reckon.

Cool I'm glad we've established that.

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Ok - so Scotland takes on the U.S. dollar.  What will be the central bank to guarantee government borrowing?

 

This 2 trillion debt you mentioned will get apportioned to Scotland, so how do they plan on managing it?

How do Westminster plan on managing the 2 trillion? If we take on debt, which we didn't create, we will be apportioned assets so we can negotiate. It's about time unionists grew up!

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

So you have nothing to back it up, you just think we should be saddled with masses of debt that Westminster policy got the UK into.

 

You haven't explained why you think Scotland is a separate legal entity from the UK.

 

If a company splits in two does one half walk away without paying their share of any debts while keeping their assets?

 

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

You have no precedents, no examples, no legal justification, it's just what you reckon.

Cool I'm glad we've established that.

 

No, I think we have established that you are living in cloud cuckoo land.  You can't take all the assets and none of the debt.

[frankblack]

5 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

How do Westminster plan on managing the 2 trillion? If we take on debt, which we didn't create, we will be apportioned assets so we can negotiate. It's about time unionists grew up!

 

Taxation over time, would be one means.

 

Scotland didn't create any of the national debt?  Have you heard of Covid-19 and furlough?

[Unknown user]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

You haven't explained why you think Scotland is a separate legal entity from the UK.

 

If a company splits in two does one half walk away without paying their share of any debts while keeping their assets?

 

How would an independent Scotland not be a separate legal entity from the UK?

 

Company law, which neither you nor I know, is irrelevant, you're just stretching now mate.

[frankblack]

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

How would an independent Scotland not be a separate legal entity from the UK?

 

Its not a separate legal entity until its agreed the separation terms and asset division.

 

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Company law, which neither you nor I know, is irrelevant, you're just stretching now mate.

 

Its more relevant than the examples you have given when discussing dividing assets and liabilities.

[Roxy Hearts]

17 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Taxation over time, would be one means.

 

Scotland didn't create any of the national debt?  Have you heard of Covid-19 and furlough?

Taxation to repay the debt? They can't meet the deficit. 

 

Scotland hasn't created any debt. It's up to Westminster to work the economy and borrow requirements, then fund it. As I said previously it's all false and there'll be no repaying as they can just quantative ease forever!

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Its not a separate legal entity until its agreed the separation terms and asset division.

 

 

Its more relevant than the examples you have given when discussing dividing assets and liabilities.

The examples of countries leaving larger unions is less relevant?

 

As always I'm only partly speaking to you, there are plenty of neutral eyes reading this thread who'll make their own minds up based on how convincing the arguments are.

 

Good luck with that.

[JackLadd]

40 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Scotland didn't create any of the national debt?  Have you heard of Covid-19 and furlough?

 

 

LOL! Only a 15billion black hole in these clown's accounts that London is funding every year and that's aside from the furlough billions. These seps live in cloud cuckoo land.

[frankblack]

6 hours ago, Smithee said:

The examples of countries leaving larger unions is less relevant?

 

In what way has the UK ever been comparable to the USSR or Yugoslavia? Democratically, economically etc?

 

The following article is from 2013 in relation to division of debt and assets and references the SNP's own white paper:

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/news-and-opinion/scottish-independence-and-uks-debt-burden

 

The specifics in that article may need to change to reflect the situation in 2021, but it clearly accepts the principle that an independent Scotland is liable for its share of the national debt.

 

6 hours ago, Smithee said:

As always I'm only partly speaking to you, there are plenty of neutral eyes reading this thread who'll make their own minds up based on how convincing the arguments are.

 

Good luck with that.

 

By "neutral" you mean blind independence supporters?

[Governor Tarkin]

On 16/04/2021 at 12:54, Nookie Bear said:

Perhaps if they confronted sectarianism within football head on they may get some respect. 

 

They could start by abolishing faith based schools. Children are a blank canvas. Difference is learned. 

 

On 16/04/2021 at 18:59, Roxy Hearts said:

 Unfortunately Scottish society has ingrained sectarianism all under the Union.

 

Sectarianism is the fault of the union.

I suppose cancer and Aids are too. 

 

On 17/04/2021 at 07:10, ri Alban said:

I still don't see the abolition of separate schools in any party manifesto. Which is so disappointing, because it would be a good start in tackling this shite. 

 

Spot on, Ausseh. These are the sort of discussions we should be having about a vision for a progressive, independent Scotland. 

 

7 hours ago, Smithee said:

There are plenty of neutral eyes reading this thread who'll make their own minds up based on how convincing the arguments are.

 

 

I'm fairly neutral in all this, Schmitt, but can't get my head around folk thinking that Scotland has no moral obligation to accept a proportional share of the UK debt on independence. 

[Unknown user]

36 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

I'm fairly neutral in all this, Schmitt, but can't get my head around folk thinking that Scotland has no moral obligation to accept a proportional share of the UK debt on independence. 

You might be reasonably minded but I wouldn't say you are neutral, you're a unionist and whether intended or not you carry the associated bias - of course you do, I carry the opposite bias, it would be daft to deny.

 

To be quite honest, I don't see why an independent Scotland should be saddled with hundreds of billions of debt when there's no legal obligation and there's never been an international understanding or precedent that this is the way things work.

 

Unionists who argue against independence feel there would be a mural obligation - that's a fairly weak reason to start a new nation with heavy debt it didn't build itself.

 

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

In what way has the UK ever been comparable to the USSR or Yugoslavia? Democratically, economically etc?

 

The following article is from 2013 in relation to division of debt and assets and references the SNP's own white paper:

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/news-and-opinion/scottish-independence-and-uks-debt-burden

 

The specifics in that article may need to change to reflect the situation in 2021, but it clearly accepts the principle that an independent Scotland is liable for its share of the national debt.

 

 

By "neutral" you mean blind independence supporters?

 

If you can't see the parallels it's because you refuse to, they're pretty bloody obvious.

 

I can't say I'm particularly into what the snp said then, but so what? They don't own independence or my thoughts, they didn't set centuries of international precedent and I don't agree with them on a whole bunch of stuff.