Irving

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, Stendelnator said:

If Hearts have offered him a contract and he’s turned it down then it might explain why he hasn’t played as much. 

I have it from a very good source that he’s pissed off with his lack of games - if he gets a regular game and a decent offer he will be happy to stay.

[jr ewing]

On 22/11/2020 at 20:23, buzzbomb said:

Agree. I’d play either smith at centre back or centre mid and play haring in the opposite position ie centre half if smith centre mid and vice versa. Get the spine sorted.

A decent right back would open up a whole lot more options. 

[gashauskis9]

Stevie Wonder in a power cut can see that Haring and Irving are our best midfield combo.  Funny enough, it’s the one Robbie hasn’t properly tested yet.  We’ve had every other combo between the four of them.

[JimmyCant]

20 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

I have it from a very good source that he’s pissed off with his lack of games - if he gets a regular game and a decent offer he will be happy to stay.

Irving has had plenty of game time and lots of starts. If he isn’t good enough to hold down a place in THAT midfield then we’re probably not that fussy about keeping him. If you get a really good vital player stalling on a contract you worry. If you get a player that hasn’t achieved a whole

lot and hasn’t converted his potential into something more tangible, you let him walk and you move on. He’s yet another one who will never play at a higher level than Hearts. In fact I can’t think of anyone on our books that will play at a higher level than Hearts. That’s really concerning.

Edited December 6, 2020 by JimmyCant

[Stendelnator]

Irving played plenty in the league cup, missed a game for international duty, missed a few games due to concussion - we haven’t played that many games this season!

[mitch41]

Believe me Irving is a superb young talent and Hearts need to tie the lad up on a decent contract.

It should be a no brainer as far as Neilson, Jeffries & Budge are concerned.

[OTT]

30 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

Believe me Irving is a superb young talent and Hearts need to tie the lad up on a decent contract.

It should be a no brainer as far as Neilson, Jeffries & Budge are concerned.

 

Totally agree. 

 

I've previously compared this to a potential Hickey situation. But I don't think its as extreme as that. Irving has a big future here but understandably he wants game time. The club needs to make that happen or he's potentially stunting his growth by staying. However, if he does go it will in all likelihood be into another clubs reserves (down south). 

 

I hope there is enough wiggle room on the finances to get this deal done. Its really important that we see the club show they have confidence in their academy by securing Irving on a long term deal. He has the sort of vision for creating chances that managers build teams around. 

[Spellczech]

1 hour ago, mitch41 said:

Believe me Irving is a superb young talent and Hearts need to tie the lad up on a decent contract.

It should be a no brainer as far as Neilson, Jeffries & Budge are concerned.

Agreed - even when he came on v Dunfermline, the passes the was trying to make were way beyond even the conception of the rest of the team that night. Boy has an eye for a pass that nobody else in our squad has...Play him (with Haring)

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Him and Haring should be the central mids. It's almost the perfect combination of different qualities when they're on form.

[King prawn]

11 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

Him and Haring should be the central mids. It's almost the perfect combination of different qualities when they're on form.

Spot on in my opinion. Irving is young and sometimes has good and bad games but at least he tries to play forwards! 

[Section Q]

Irving should be first pick in his position. Quite a few on here would agree with that.....!

[Guest ToqueJambo]

He's got a cracking shot on him as well. Went very close from outside the box against Morton.

 

On close things in that game, not seen much discussion of Wighton's over the shoulder volley - it was top class. We have players with very good technique, just need to see it more often.

[Last Laff]

Should be playing.  Will leave to play regular football and make a club good money. 

[Debut 4]

Stendel have him his chance because he knew he was a player. But he also inspired Andy to drive more with the ball, get into the last third where his talent comes alive.  He put an extra spring in his step, everything was much much more purposeful.  
 

I actually thought he was really sloppy yesterday but that’s what happens when you don’t play the lad as often as he should be. It’s a real gripe of mine with Hearts lately.  Too many players are in and out the team because managers try to be the genius thinking they need to make the team different ,game to game , as not to come across as predictable.  Utter shite.   

[Billy Hoyle]

1 minute ago, Debut 4 said:

Stendel have him his chance because he knew he was a player. But he also inspired Andy to drive more with the ball, get into the last third where his talent comes alive.  He put an extra spring in his step, everything was much much more purposeful.  
 

I actually thought he was really sloppy yesterday but that’s what happens when you don’t play the lad as often as he should be. It’s a real gripe of mine with Hearts lately.  Too many players are in and out the team because managers try to be the genius thinking they need to make the team different ,game to game , as not to come across as predictable.  Utter shite.   

I think Irving good be a good player but he is still very sloppy in possession. Not the only one in the Hearts team mind you. He also should be demanding the ball a lot more than he does at this level as he has the ability to stand out in this division and make things happen for us in the forward positions. This is a big season for him. If he can’t be a regular in this Hearts midfield then he never will be in my opinion.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

8 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

Stendel have him his chance because he knew he was a player. But he also inspired Andy to drive more with the ball, get into the last third where his talent comes alive.  He put an extra spring in his step, everything was much much more purposeful.  
 

I actually thought he was really sloppy yesterday but that’s what happens when you don’t play the lad as often as he should be. It’s a real gripe of mine with Hearts lately.  Too many players are in and out the team because managers try to be the genius thinking they need to make the team different ,game to game , as not to come across as predictable.  Utter shite.   

 

It was Levein who gave Irving his chance. I think he played him in every league game last season. McPhee dropped him or he got injured. Stendel eventually brought him in and that coincided with some better form.

Edited December 6, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Diego10]

13 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

It was Levein who gave Irving his chance. I think he played him in every league game last season. McPhee dropped him or he got injured. Stendel eventually brought him in and that coincided with some better form.

He started 9 games each under Levein and Stendel last season. 

 

He's started 4 out of 11 this season, a pretty similar ratio to last season.

 

He is a good talented passer, and I'd like to see him get a run at this level as he takes risks with his passes that are needed to open teams up.  His defensive work is not great though so I think he ptobsbly needs to be in beside someone who can run more than him and Haring.

 

 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

8 minutes ago, Diego10 said:

He started 9 games each under Levein and Stendel last season. 

 

He's started 4 out of 11 this season, a pretty similar ratio to last season.

 

He is a good talented passer, and I'd like to see him get a run at this level as he takes risks with his passes that are needed to open teams up.  His defensive work is not great though so I think he ptobsbly needs to be in beside someone who can run more than him and Haring.

 

 

 

Agree totally. I like him. He's got that bit of guile we don't have much of in the squad.

[Gambo]

He WILL BECOME a good player but is still learning.

 

Gave the ball cheaply away yesterday and in other games.

 

His part in the first half corner routine was abysmal.

 

I think he will do well, I hope he does well but has to do it more frequently.

[Debut 4]

40 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

It was Levein who gave Irving his chance. I think he played him in every league game last season. McPhee dropped him or he got injured. Stendel eventually brought him in and that coincided with some better form.

The point was he was still used sparingly under Levein. It shows what Stendel saw in him to play him more often in a shorter space of time. Stendel also knew what to do with him to see the better traits of his game become more influential. 
 

Levein and McPhee imposed a withdrawn mentality on him. Everything safe and sideways but the branches of wider problems didn’t help players like Irving either.  
 

 

[Diego10]

Just now, Debut 4 said:

The point was he was still used sparingly under Levein. It shows what Stendel saw in him to play him more often in a shorter space of time. Stendel also knew what to do with him to see the better traits of his game become more influential. 
 

Levein and McPhee imposed a withdrawn mentality on him. Everything safe and sideways but the branches of wider problems didn’t help players like Irving either.  
 

 

Stendel didn't play him more often than Levein last season though.  He certainly gave him a run of games, but he didn't play much at all towards the end

[Gimme an H...]

On 21/11/2020 at 17:43, SectionFJambo said:

Never seen it myself. Probably carve out a career in the championship but not a player we should be building a team around or pinning any hopes on.

DP

Edited December 6, 2020 by Gimme an H...
Double post

[Gimme an H...]

On 21/11/2020 at 17:43, SectionFJambo said:

Never seen it myself. Probably carve out a career in the championship but not a player we should be building a team around or pinning any hopes on.

Absolutely clueless

[buzzbomb]

Irving generally makes most forward  passes in the team, indeed in the whole Spl last year. That involves an element of risk. His pass completion rate is good considering how many are forward. Risk to reward ratio. You’d also be surprised at his ‘duels won ratio’ vs that of some of our more experienced players. And he never hides. I’ll take him in the team. And he’s going to get better. 

[HillmanHearts]

Real potential. Get him signed. 

[Gimme an H...]

1 minute ago, buzzbomb said:

Irving generally makes most forward  passes in the team, indeed in the whole Spl last year. That involves an element of risk. His pass completion rate is good considering how many are forward. Risk to reward ratio. You’d also be surprised at his ‘duels won ratio’ vs that of some of our more experienced players. And he never hides. I’ll take him in the team. And he’s going to get better. 

Seen folk on the match day thread yesterday calling him out for misplacing a pass. As you say, and I said as much yesterday, he's the only centre midfielder we have with an ounce of creativity in him. I'd be telling him to go out there and ping balls around as he wishes. You've got to have players in your team with the bravery to try these passes. Aye he'll give away a few but he'll also set up goals. 

 

Hoenslty cannot believe Andy Irving gets stick. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

14 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

The point was he was still used sparingly under Levein. It shows what Stendel saw in him to play him more often in a shorter space of time. Stendel also knew what to do with him to see the better traits of his game become more influential. 
 

Levein and McPhee imposed a withdrawn mentality on him. Everything safe and sideways but the branches of wider problems didn’t help players like Irving either.  
 

 

 

It's not really a Levein debate although they all seem to end up like one  but Levein played him in every league game last season, and most of the LC games, just benched him twice in the league like Stendel did. The difference is that Levein signed a bunch of centre mids we didn't need instead of maybe telling Irving this is his big season. Who knows, but Levein certainly seemed to rate him. McPhee seems to have been the one who didn't rate him, unless he got an injury.

Edited December 6, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[buzzbomb]

6 minutes ago, Gimme an H... said:

Seen folk on the match day thread yesterday calling him out for misplacing a pass. As you say, and I said as much yesterday, he's the only centre midfielder we have with an ounce of creativity in him. I'd be telling him to go out there and ping balls around as he wishes. You've got to have players in your team with the bravery to try these passes. Aye he'll give away a few but he'll also set up goals. 

 

Hoenslty cannot believe Andy Irving gets stick. 

Same guys who are happy with someone channeling a ball aimlessly. Or the ones who moan about sideways passes or backwards. 

[JamboAl]

3 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Believe me Irving is a superb young talent and Hearts need to tie the lad up on a decent contract.

It should be a no brainer as far as Neilson, Jeffries & Budge are concerned.

You forgot Andrew McKinlay.

Edited December 6, 2020 by JamboAl

[Anything2]

I really like Irving. He also plays a role that is usually occupied by far more experienced players so time is on his side to develop. 

[buzzbomb]

9 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

It's not really a Levein debate although they all seem to end up like one  but Levein played him in every league game last season, and most of the LC games, just benched him twice in the league like Stendel did. The difference is that Levein signed a bunch of centre mids we didn't need instead of maybe telling Irving this is his big season. Who knows, but Levein certainly seemed to rate him. McPhee seems to have been the one who didn't rate him, unless he got an injury.

There was a completely different mindset between levein/McPhee/Stendel. The first two wanted to focus on his weaknesses. Stendel accepted these and focused on the positives. Levein/McPhee Negative Scottish attitude to football that pervades throughout. Remind me why we have been abject at international  level for so long. Managers, coaches, players, ex-players, pundits, fans- the negativity runs deep and has for a long time.

[JamboAl]

16 minutes ago, Gimme an H... said:

Seen folk on the match day thread yesterday calling him out for misplacing a pass. As you say, and I said as much yesterday, he's the only centre midfielder we have with an ounce of creativity in him. I'd be telling him to go out there and ping balls around as he wishes. You've got to have players in your team with the bravery to try these passes. Aye he'll give away a few but he'll also set up goals. 

 

Hoenslty cannot believe Andy Irving gets stick. 

We never misplace passes otherwise.😀

[Guest ToqueJambo]

2 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

There was a completely different mindset between levein/McPhee/Stendel. The first two wanted to focus on his weaknesses. Stendel accepted these and focused on the positives. Levein/McPhee Negative Scottish attitude to football that pervades throughout. Remind me why we have been abject at international  level for so long. Managers, coaches, players, ex-players, pundits, fans- the negativity runs deep and has for a long time.

 

Possibly. I would say on the evidence of their managerial careers, Levein knows a good central midfielder better than McPhee and Stendel, the obvious standouts being Hartley and Haring. He also gave Cochrane a lot of games until his injuries. At D Utd he brought in Gomis, Bauben, Scott Robertson and Danny Swanson who were all very good at that time.

 

I think Levein really rated Irving, similar to how he rated Hickey. Whether he used him properly is another thing but he signed experience to play alongside him. I would have expected a lot more from Glenn Whelan in terms of bringing Irving on. Whelan just didn't seem interested in anything.

[buzzbomb]

6 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Possibly. I would say on the evidence of their managerial careers, Levein knows a good central midfielder better than McPhee and Stendel, the obvious standouts being Hartley and Haring. He also gave Cochrane a lot of games until his injuries. At D Utd he brought in Gomis, Bauben, Scott Robertson and Danny Swanson who were all very good at that time.

 

I think Levein really rated Irving, similar to how he rated Hickey. Whether he used him properly is another thing but he signed experience to play alongside him. I would have expected a lot more from Glenn Whelan in terms of bringing Irving on. Whelan just didn't seem interested in anything.

I think that’s harsh on whelan. The fans are just constantly looking for scapegoats for last season. The glaring one and the one that was real in my opinion and the main cause of our poor performance was Joel. Whelan was still  a decent player.

[johnthomas]

21 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

There was a completely different mindset between levein/McPhee/Stendel. The first two wanted to focus on his weaknesses. Stendel accepted these and focused on the positives. 

You actually know that to be the case or you've just made it up ?

[soonbe110]

8 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Irving has had plenty of game time and lots of starts. If he isn’t good enough to hold down a place in THAT midfield then we’re probably not that fussy about keeping him. If you get a really good vital player stalling on a contract you worry. If you get a player that hasn’t achieved a whole

lot and hasn’t converted his potential into something more tangible, you let him walk and you move on. He’s yet another one who will never play at a higher level than Hearts. In fact I can’t think of anyone on our books that will play at a higher level than Hearts. That’s really concerning.

Harry Stone will. Two or three others already have. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

5 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

I think that’s harsh on whelan. The fans are just constantly looking for scapegoats for last season. The glaring one and the one that was real in my opinion and the main cause of our poor performance was Joel. Whelan was still  a decent player.

 

He was but never really showed it and didn't seem committed to the cause in any way shape or form, considering his pedigree. Agree that goalie was why we were bottom though, and the decision of Stendel not to drop him sooner.

[buzzbomb]

4 minutes ago, johnthomas said:

You actually know that to be the case or you've just made it up ?

Yeah, I just made it up

[johnthomas]

2 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

Yeah, I just made it up

That is what I thought .

Didn't want to be rude

[buzzbomb]

1 minute ago, johnthomas said:

That is what I thought .

Didn't want to be rude

👍🏻

[Guest ToqueJambo]

8 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Irving has had plenty of game time and lots of starts. If he isn’t good enough to hold down a place in THAT midfield then we’re probably not that fussy about keeping him. If you get a really good vital player stalling on a contract you worry. If you get a player that hasn’t achieved a whole

lot and hasn’t converted his potential into something more tangible, you let him walk and you move on. He’s yet another one who will never play at a higher level than Hearts. In fact I can’t think of anyone on our books that will play at a higher level than Hearts. That’s really concerning.

 

We just sold someone to Serie A! And what about Paterson and Walker most recently? How many do you expect to come though our system and play at a higher level (Championship England or above)? Since the mid 80s I can think of Robertson, Bowman, Gordon, Ritchie, McLaren, Naysmith, Severin, Holt, Walker (briefly at Wigan), Paterson, Hickey, Driver, Wallace, Berra, Ryan McGowan, Locke, Johnston. Probably missed a couple. That's maybe one every 2-3 years at most but often they come through in groups.

 

Edit: Eggert Johnson too. Must be some others.

Edited December 6, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[JimmyCant]

6 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Harry Stone will. Two or three others already have. 

You've got the advantage over me obviously of having seen Harry Stone play obviously, so Im not in a position to judge. I was talking about those in and around or first team who I do see and do know about. None of them will play at a higher level than Hearts IMO. The only one I can think of lately who has gone on to a higher level was Callum Paterson and he was way back now.

[Last Laff]

1 minute ago, JimmyCant said:

You've got the advantage over me obviously of having seen Harry Stone play obviously, so Im not in a position to judge. I was talking about those in and around or first team who I do see and do know about. None of them will play at a higher level than Hearts IMO. The only one I can think of lately who has gone on to a higher level was Callum Paterson and he was way back now.

 

Hickey? 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

2 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

You've got the advantage over me obviously of having seen Harry Stone play obviously, so Im not in a position to judge. I was talking about those in and around or first team who I do see and do know about. None of them will play at a higher level than Hearts IMO. The only one I can think of lately who has gone on to a higher level was Callum Paterson and he was way back now.

 

Are you not forgetting potentially our biggest youth success ever the way things are going for him?

[JimmyCant]

1 minute ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

We just sold someone to Serie A! And what about Paterson and Walker most recently? How many do you expect to come though our system and play at a higher level (Championship England or above)? Since the mid 80s I can think of Robertson, Bowman, Gordon, Ritchie, McLaren, Naysmith, Severin, Holt, Walker (briefly at Wigan), Paterson, Hickey, Driver, Wallace, Berra, Ryan McGowan, Locke, Johnston. Probably missed a couple. That's maybe one every 2-3 years at most but often they come through in groups.

 

Read my post again. I said players ON OUR BOOKS, meaning right now. Now lets discuss which of those who are ON THE BOOKS right now will go on to play at a higher level than Hearts, because thats the statement I made.

[buzzbomb]

1 minute ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

We just sold someone to Serie A! And what about Paterson and Walker most recently? How many do you expect to come though our system and play at a higher level (Championship England or above)? Since the mid 80s I can think of Robertson, Bowman, Gordon, Ritchie, McLaren, Naysmith, Severin, Holt, Walker (briefly at Wigan), Paterson, Hickey, Driver, Wallace, Berra, Ryan McGowan, Locke, Johnston. Probably missed a couple. That's maybe one every 2-3 years at most but often they come through in groups.

 

It’s a bit ironic that Jimmy has chosen a username of someone who didn’t really make it at Hearts ?

[JimmyCant]

1 minute ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Are you not forgetting potentially our biggest youth success ever the way things are going for him?

Yes but it wasn't really the point I was making was it ?

[Pasquale for King]

The only midfielder we have that looks forward first and foremost, and can then make the pass. A lot more to come from him and hopefully a new contract will be signed soon. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

5 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Yes but it wasn't really the point I was making was it ?

 

Your point seemed to be we're not producing players who move on to bigger clubs when two (three including Walker) did that quite recently, one very recently. None of us really knew about Hickey's potential before he made his debut. For all we know there's another 16 year old floating around who may come in and establish himself the way Hickey did.

 

I don't think we should expect to be sending a regular stream of youngsters to Serve A though. Although no doubt some will no consider this to be a benchmark.

Edited December 6, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[JimmyCant]

3 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

 For all we know there's another 16 year old floating around who may come in and establish himself the way Hickey did.

Aye mibbe. Once he's pushed his way past the endless has beens and never will be's we seem to be handing jerseys and wages to whilst most of our promising kids get to a certain level and stagnate on loan for 2 years before ending up at Falkirk or some such place. For every Hickey there's a dozen could have beens who we haven't 'finished'