SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[whodanny]

5 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s truly sickening stuff. 
I sometimes wish I didn’t love Hearts so much. I’d love to turn my back on this shit. 

Hang in there JD. We all love Hearts, and whatever happens we'll come out of this with our heads held high. Hearts will be the better for this, nothing can kill the spirit of this great football club, and what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. HHGH.

[HMFC01]

13 minutes ago, Jambo-Fox said:

Yep that’s what I thought and my hypothesis is that he or she does not work until 5pm on a Friday and they had gone home before it landed and sat in their inbox!

 

Sorry,  I meant the SPFL company secretary Ian Blair.  To be honest  I am not sure if he is Doncasters aide or what.  Maybe there was another secretary   

[WorldChampions1902]

36 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

It will also be easy to examine the original PDF and run a test of the email system. Quarantine and spam systems only flag emails they think contain malware. It'll be easy to replicate the vote to see where the email ends up.

You wouldn’t even have to use the SPFL IT system. If you know which version of the relevant software was involved at the time (pdf and email/firewall software), you could replicate it in any modest IT setup to check the results.

[Rick Sanchez]

1 minute ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

If you're expecting an important email and it doesn't arrive, the VERY first thing every single normal person does is check their spam folder.

 

Wouldn't take me 3 and a half hours! And how does it get released? Someone doing that?

 

No emails from any member club should be quarantined. I'd imagine a 10m sponsorship offer from a random email address wouldn't be 'lost'.

[Ethan Hunt]

2 minutes ago, Maroon 1874 said:

 

Interesting considering DU and Raith are not flush with cash, Cove are in effect juniors so all would possibly be limited on cash for their QC

Aberdeen are losing a million a month. Celtic are very quickly eating through their cash reserves and have admitted that they are far from immune from the negative financial impacts of COVID. Neither are losing out at this time as a result of Hearts/PT legal challenge. What is in it for them? All Scottish clubs are toiling for cash. The DR article that made the claim did so stating that the unnamed clubs were “enraged” at Hearts/PT actions or some such tripe. How many times has the claim been repeated since that article? How many different sources has it come from? Made up pish imo.

[Rods]

We should also be focusing on the original resolution why was it setup to penalise 3 clubs. Once it become clear the league could not finish and there was no rules for this at that point the directors of the SPFL had a duty to act for all shareholders. Instead they pushed through a resolution that was to the detriment of 3. I hope this is brought to the table at some point. 

[jack D and coke]

4 minutes ago, whodanny said:

Hang in there JD. We all love Hearts, and whatever happens we'll come out of this with our heads held high. Hearts will be the better for this, nothing can kill the spirit of this great football club, and what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. HHGH.

👍🏼

[Getintaethem]

15 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I wouldn't go overboard on the 4:48 email sent or received point just yet.  There is enough plausible deniability in what has been said, not to change very much.

 

*  Acknowledgement in the SPFL's "answers" that the vote had been sent at 4:48pm

*  Statement yesterday from Moynihan that it had arrived at 4:48pm

 

We already knew all that. It had arrived on the SPFL server at 4:48pm, but allegedly sat in the quarantine folder. According to the SPFL (and the Deloitte report) it was not viewed until 8:55pm.

 

Alternatively it is possible that Moynihan could say that he "misspoke" (to use current political parlance) when he said it had arrived. He may choose to correct the record when he speaks tomorrow.

is it not the case though that a vote is considered to be cast when sent, according to SPFL rules?  If true then it’s irrelevant what folder it ended up in or when it was read.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

7 minutes ago, Rick Sanchez said:

 

Wouldn't take me 3 and a half hours! And how does it get released? Someone doing that?

 

No emails from any member club should be quarantined. I'd imagine a 10m sponsorship offer from a random email address wouldn't be 'lost'.

 

 

Quarantine systems are typically much more than spam folders. Spam folders look for mass mailings, etc. Quarantine systems specifically look for malware. It's an extra security step. The email from Dundee would only be caught in quarantine if the PDF attachment contained suspected malware. I assume they have the original attachment and email.

 

Either way, the Deloitte investigation did not say why this particular email was quarantined leaving a lot of questions still to be asked.

Edited July 2, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[BelgeJambo]

4 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

You wouldn’t even have to use the SPFL IT system. If you know which version of the relevant software was involved at the time (pdf and email/firewall software), you could replicate it in any modest IT setup to check the results.

I would like to think, this wasn’t the first time Dundee have emailed the SPFL.  

I would think clubs email the SPFL on quite a regular basis e.g rearranging fixtures and other secretarial matters

[Rick Sanchez]

1 minute ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

 

Quarantine systems are typically much more than spam folders. Spam folders look for mass mailings, etc. Quarantine systems specifically look for malware. The email from Dundee would only be caught in quarantine if the PDF attachment contained suspected malware. I assume they have the original attachment and email.

 

Either way, the Deloitte investigation did not say why this particular email was quarantined leaving a lot of questions still to be asked.

 

👍

 

It would be interesting to know if it was the only one that made it to quarantine.

[vegas-voss]

32 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The obvious quick remedy is no relegation 

 

Which is 13-10-10-9 for one season. 

Thats all that was ever needed

[Toxteth O'Grady]

6 minutes ago, Rods said:

We should also be focusing on the original resolution why was it setup to penalise 3 clubs. Once it become clear the league could not finish and there was no rules for this at that point the directors of the SPFL had a duty to act for all shareholders. Instead they pushed through a resolution that was to the detriment of 3. I hope this is brought to the table at some point. 

Exactly - they had no rules for not being able to finish the league - they hurried and didn’t seriously consider trying to complete it. If this was to happen in an individual game then there is a replay regardless of the time or the score. There is no vote by I interested parties to determine the result. The whole thing has been a shambles of clubs voting in self interest without any consideration of the circumstances. 

[GinRummy]

4 minutes ago, BelgeJambo said:

I would like to think, this wasn’t the first time Dundee have emailed the SPFL.  

I would think clubs email the SPFL on quite a regular basis e.g rearranging fixtures and other secretarial matters

I’ve thought this since the start of the debacle. There is bound to be a checkable trail of emails between the spfl and Dundee. Ridiculous to expect folk to believe the ‘problematic’ vote was the one that didn’t make it through. 

[HMFC01]

29 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I wouldn't go overboard on the 4:48 email sent or received point just yet.  There is enough plausible deniability in what has been said, not to change very much.

 

*  Acknowledgement in the SPFL's "answers" that the vote had been sent at 4:48pm

*  Statement yesterday from Moynihan that it had arrived at 4:48pm

 

We already knew all that. It had arrived on the SPFL server at 4:48pm, but allegedly sat in the quarantine folder. According to the SPFL (and the Deloitte report) it was not viewed until 8:55pm.

 

Alternatively it is possible that Moynihan could say that he "misspoke" (to use current political parlance) when he said it had arrived. He may choose to correct the record when he speaks tomorrow.

 

He will appologise for his comment of yer oot the gemme and give a "full" recollection on the arrived patter, perhaps it arrived at the SFA IT company, reading above on the Q&|A of McClennan.

 

Well spotted.  

Edited July 2, 2020 by HMFC01

[John Findlay]

The last thing Neil Doncaster and John Nelms will want to do is give evidence under oath in a Scottish court.

Then both men wouldnt know the truth if it bit them both in the arse.

[David McCaig]

56 minutes ago, troonmaroon said:

Thanks so much David! 

 

Can you clarify... Ive seen comments referring to papers spfl are due to provide tomorrow? Was that confirmed today and do we know what those papers are? 

I don't think it's papers for tomorrow. Part of tomorrow's hearing will be David Thomson requesting production of evidence from the SPFL for the full hearing if Lord Clark decides the case stays at the Court of Session.

[Footballfirst]

4 minutes ago, Getintaethem said:

is it not the case though that a vote is considered to be cast when sent, according to SPFL rules?  If true then it’s irrelevant what folder it ended up in or when it was read.

That is correct, but the SPFL may seek to argue the point, not about when the vote arrived, but whether it was OK for them to initially switch to "vote not cast" then switch again to agree to the resolution 5 days later.

 

That is something I'd like to see argued in court (preferably) or at an arbitration tribunal.

[Jamhammer]

21 minutes ago, Rick Sanchez said:

You would think on the day of a vote with a 5pm deadline that you would regularly check your quarantine/spam folders. Or even have the quarantine switched off.

 

Nothing legal in that, just common sense. I check my spam folder now and again, all my FoH emails go in there.

Beat me to it. If I'm expecting an e mail and aint received it I check my Junk folder. I'm not a national sporting organisation though so what do I know?

[Guest ToqueJambo]

3 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

The last thing Neil Doncaster and John Nelms will want to do is give evidence under oath in a Scottish court.

Then both men wouldnt know the truth if it bit them both in the arse.

 

Can't see anything except very swift reconstruction if their arbitration move fails. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[buzzbomb1958]

24 minutes ago, 1971fozzy said:

ditto.  100% agree with this.  To the point can’t see me attending any away games again now tbh. 

Even if we get a result we should boycott anyway,we have to send a message once bitten twice shy ,we have to let them all know we won't be ****ed with ever again

[SectionDJambo]

2 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Thats all that was ever needed

There are quite a few potential solutions to the problems that Covid 19 dropped on Scottish football. All that was needed was a small degree of decency and positive thinking, to help all the clubs within their unique situations. 

Sadly, the mischief makers got their way, with the support of the Scottish sports media, and we are all in this mess now.

They can blame Hearts and Partick Thistle all they want. The blame lies fairly and squarely with the desire, and required spite, of an uncomfortable number of clubs and individuals, to hurt Hearts, with any other collateral damage just too bad.

[Footballfirst]

2 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

I don't think it's papers for tomorrow. Part of tomorrow's hearing will be David Thomson requesting production of evidence from the SPFL for the full hearing if Lord Clark decides the case stays at the Court of Session.

 

It may be that we don't get the opportunity to find out specifically what documents have been requested.

 

David Thomson may just say that he has submitted a schedule of documents that he wishes to be disclosed, and explain why he needs them.

 

Moynihan may respond by accepting  the schedule with the exception of those marked with an "X" on the sheet he has just returned to the Judge and the petitioners. He may go on to explain that those documents are confidential to the SPFL Board or that they claim LPP (Legal Professional Privilege) for their dealings with solicitors or QCs.

[MarkDevriesScores4]

4 minutes ago, buzzbomb1958 said:

Even if we get a result we should boycott anyway,we have to send a message once bitten twice shy ,we have to let them all know we won't be ****ed with ever again

Already said I’m not doing away games (couple of obvious exceptions who haven’t tried to do over hearts) regardless of the result in court. I’d rather spend the money in gorgie and on my own club. 

 

 

[WorldChampions1902]

4 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

 

It may be that we don't get the opportunity to find out specifically what documents have been requested.

 

David Thomson may just say that he has submitted a schedule of documents that he wishes to be disclosed, and explain why he needs them.

 

Moynihan may respond by accepting  the schedule with the exception of those marked with an "X" on the sheet he has just returned to the Judge and the petitioners. He may go on to explain that those documents are confidential to the SPFL Board or that they claim LPP (Legal Professional Privilege) for their dealings with solicitors or QCs.

Not doubting what you are saying here FF, but I find your last para disconcerting. Because what that tells me is that  any and all SPFL/Dundee docs that are incriminating, just have to be passed to their own solicitors beforehand, and the liars are not compelled to release them? Really??

Edited July 2, 2020 by WorldChampions1902

[andi17]

Just now, ToqueJambo said:

 

If you're expecting an important email and it doesn't arrive, the VERY first thing every single normal person does is check their spam folder.

I'm the biggest technophobe in the world and even i know that.

[Rick Sanchez]

Seriously, I would like to know if it was the only quarantined email. If it was, I'm sure it was just a coincidence

[Footballfirst]

8 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Not doubting what you are saying here FF, but I find your last para disconcerting. Because what that tells me is that  any and all SPFL/Dundee docs that are incriminating, just have to be passed to their own solicitors beforehand, and the liars are not compelled to release them? Really??

 

LPP is normally only claimed over documents, emails etc., exchanged between a party and their legal advisors in relation to matters being raised in a court action.

 

https://www.inhouselawyer.co.uk/legal-briefing/legal-professional-privilege-in-scotland-and-elsewhere/

Edited July 2, 2020 by Footballfirst

[RobNox]

3 hours ago, DarthVodka said:

 

Do you think its say to say that one of this considerations for Q3 there 'would be will arbitration be a fair hearing/decision?' 

 

We know it likely will not be, but will he? Maybe the 'oot the gemme' comment might just lay on his mind

 

I think one of his consideration on Q3 might be how long will the arbitration process take, and if it fails would we still have the right to return to the courts, therefore is it more expeditious to hear the case in court seeing as we have already commenced that process.

 

Our QC made the valid point that, whilst the SPFL argument is that it is a footballing matter and not for the courts to determine, any arbitration panel would be comprised of legal professionals.  By their own admittance, the footballing authorities do not have the competence to deal with this case, and it requires legal people to determine the outcome.

[BelgeJambo]

22 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

The last thing Neil Doncaster and John Nelms will want to do is give evidence under oath in a Scottish court.

Then both men wouldnt know the truth if it bit them both in the arse.

Bringing the game into disrepute 

Fine or Expel?

[EIEIO]

56 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

My bet is that it was made up nonsense.

Celtic possibly but not one other club has either the money or any real interest.

[buzzbomb1958]

9 minutes ago, MarkDevriesScores4 said:

Already said I’m not doing away games (couple of obvious exceptions who haven’t tried to do over hearts) regardless of the result in court. I’d rather spend the money in gorgie and on my own club. 

 

 

Good man HHGH👍

[Nelly Terraces]

47 minutes ago, 1971fozzy said:

ditto.  100% agree with this.  To the point can’t see me attending any away games again now tbh. 

I was out for a run earlier & it came into my mind that what would be good is to go through to a couple of Partick games; have a day out & watch a bit of football, instead of giving these other shitehawks our money, certainly think a few of my mates would be up for that & would be great if even a few hundred Hearts fans did the same. Would be good if we were playing Dundee away on the same day Thistle were at home, nice photo of us at Firhill to those kants Twitter page with the message "Heres where your much needed away ticket money''s gone ya fecking losers!" would be nice.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Nelly Terraces

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 minute ago, Nelly Terraces said:

I was out for a run earlier & it came into my mind that what would be good is to go through to a couple of Partick games; have a day out & watch a bit of football, instead of giving these other shitehawks our money, certainly think a few of my mates would be up for that & would be great if even a few hundred Hearts fans did the same. Would be good if we were playing Dundee away on the same day Thistle were at home, nice photo of us at Firhill to those kants Twitter page with the message "Heres where your much needed away ticket money''s gone ya fecking losers!" would be nice.

 

Mind you, I’m struggling to give that much of a **** about Thistle

[1874robbo]

Lying bassas!!!!

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/sport/national/18404304.amp/

[Bojam III]

42 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

Aberdeen are losing a million a month. Celtic are very quickly eating through their cash reserves and have admitted that they are far from immune from the negative financial impacts of COVID. Neither are losing out at this time as a result of Hearts/PT legal challenge. What is in it for them? All Scottish clubs are toiling for cash. The DR article that made the claim did so stating that the unnamed clubs were “enraged” at Hearts/PT actions or some such tripe. How many times has the claim been repeated since that article? How many different sources has it come from? Made up pish imo.

This is a perfect example of the wrap-up smear as boasted about by Nancy Pelosi.

 

 

[Chambie15]

2 minutes ago, Nelly Terraces said:

I was out for a run earlier & it came into my mind that what would be good is to go through to a couple of Partick games; have a day out & watch a bit of football, instead of giving these other shitehawks our money, certainly think a few of my mates would be up for that & would be great if even a few hundred Hearts fans did the same. Would be good if we were playing Dundee away on the same day Thistle were at home, nice photo of us at Firhill to those kants Twitter page with the message "Heres where your much needed away ticket money''s gone ya fecking losers!" would be nice.

👆👏👏

[troonmaroon]

38 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

I don't think it's papers for tomorrow. Part of tomorrow's hearing will be David Thomson requesting production of evidence from the SPFL for the full hearing if Lord Clark decides the case stays at the Court of Session.

OK, many thanks! Last Q, I think...! What is order of events tomorrow? DUFC guy finished yet, so kick off with spfl guy again? And after that, does DT get to come back before judge rules/ pauses to consider? 

Edited July 2, 2020 by troonmaroon

[RobNox]

3 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

If it goes to trial him & Nelms  will be called - Hearts' QC said as much. 

I said after yesterday's hearing that those are the two I would love to see called for questioning if the case proceeds to court.

 

Doncaster is no way going to want to subject himself to interrogation by a QC, under oath, in the presence of a law lord.  He might be able to bullshit Richard Gordon on Sportsound, with the microphones of Tom English and Mikey Stewart turned off so they can't challenge his response, but he will not be able to bullshit a QC and dare not lie.

 

As for Nelms, he needs to be questioned about the reasons for withdrawing the Dundee 'no' vote, changing it to a 'yes' vote, and what communication took place between Dundee and the SPFL before revising their vote to 'yes'.  

[Cruyff]

29 minutes ago, buzzbomb1958 said:

Even if we get a result we should boycott anyway,we have to send a message once bitten twice shy ,we have to let them all know we won't be ****ed with ever again

100% and a minimum of two seasons. 

[RobNox]

3 hours ago, PhoenixHearts said:

Anyone else that listened in absolutely bored to tears by this Dundee Utd clown?

 

We've had about 6 hours or so of this and he's somehow managed to take up almost 50% of that time to himself talking the case to death.

 

In the 3+ hours he has been waffling on, he's basically just been repeating the same thing over and over.

Reminds me of that Ed Miliband interview were he just keeps answering questions with the exact same pre-written statement with the words in a different order. 

 

Bore off, Boreland.

 

For a case that was supposed to be between us and the SPFL, this guy hasn't half sucked up all the oxygen out of the room.

 

If I was the judge, I'd come down on the side of Hearts and PT just to **** this boring twat over for wasting so much of my time.  Then again, that's probably one of the many reasons why I'm not a judge.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

47 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

Aberdeen are losing a million a month. Celtic are very quickly eating through their cash reserves and have admitted that they are far from immune from the negative financial impacts of COVID. Neither are losing out at this time as a result of Hearts/PT legal challenge. What is in it for them? All Scottish clubs are toiling for cash. The DR article that made the claim did so stating that the unnamed clubs were “enraged” at Hearts/PT actions or some such tripe. How many times has the claim been repeated since that article? How many different sources has it come from? Made up pish imo.

 

 

Definitely made up. For starters if it was real it's a pretty big story so they would have had more on it.

 

Anyhow, the DR is the paper that said Rangers were close to signing Ronaldo for 20m to only play in CL games.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

9 minutes ago, RobNox said:

I said after yesterday's hearing that those are the two I would love to see called for questioning if the case proceeds to court.

 

 

 

Also Peter Lawell. At the end of the day, which club stood to gain the most from the decision to call the league so early? And which is the one prominent club that has been silent through this whole thing?

[Rods]

With the recent revelation by the SPFL to change the rules which will probably get through due to the majority of chairmen being spineless scumbags it’s no longer a boycott it’s a we need to look after ourselves situation. It could be a case of the board who hate us will look for any reason not to allow us back into the premier league the season after. So the money is better off in our pocket than the pockets of other clubs that is for sure. Let’s hope the new CEO prompted by the foundation give us alternatives to these away games. 

[Rogue Daddy]

1 hour ago, Jamboelite said:

Its hard to remind myself this isnt even the main trial but just a preliminary hearing on where it should sit to hear it fully.

 

If this is to be heard with Lord Clark at CoS then i can see the SPFL folding quickly but if it goes to arbitration they will feel like they can get this buried with minimal disruption.

 

I dont think we should interpret  Lord Clark’s questioning too specifically on either aide as clearly he is being very thorough in his understanding of what may happen next in each decision. 

The fact that an initial ‘2hour’ hearing is now going into its third day, surely leans towards CoS?... you would have thought!

[Portable Badger]

9 minutes ago, RobNox said:

 

If I was the judge, I'd come down on the side of Hearts and PT just to **** this boring twat over for wasting so much of my time.  Then again, that's probably one of the many reasons why I'm not a judge.

I’d vote for you be a judge.  Sound logic to your reasoning in my view

 

👍🏻

[Cruyff]

Will David Thomson QC be speaking tomorrow? 

 

If not, what is happening tomorrow? 

[WageThief]

1 hour ago, Rick Sanchez said:

You would think on the day of a vote with a 5pm deadline that you would regularly check your quarantine/spam folders. Or even have the quarantine switched off.

 

Nothing legal in that, just common sense. I check my spam folder now and again, all my FoH emails go in there.

 

You could add FoH to your address book to remedy this.  Usually marking one email as 'not spam' would also suffice.

 

If you don't understand then get Morty to do it for you.

[iainmac]

26 minutes ago, troonmaroon said:

OK, many thanks! Last Q, I think...! What is order of events tomorrow? DUFC guy finished yet, so kick off with spfl guy again? And after that, does DT get to come back before judge rules/ pauses to consider? 

Borland finishing then Moynihan then Thomson with a new motion. 

 

10pm start. 

[SMJ_1874]

31 minutes ago, Nelly Terraces said:

I was out for a run earlier & it came into my mind that what would be good is to go through to a couple of Partick games; have a day out & watch a bit of football, instead of giving these other shitehawks our money, certainly think a few of my mates would be up for that & would be great if even a few hundred Hearts fans did the same. Would be good if we were playing Dundee away on the same day Thistle were at home, nice photo of us at Firhill to those kants Twitter page with the message "Heres where your much needed away ticket money''s gone ya fecking losers!" would be nice.

Great idea NT. Hopefully we could all agree on the same game and take a few bodies through to this for a jolly boys outing.