VAR

[A_A wehatethehibs]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

They do have problems with their rules. Actually arguably the tyres are the main problem preventing good racing. 

 

It's not unlike Scottish football in that 2 teams have all the money and resources. 

 

Not just the Scottish game, that’s world football. Celtic say the same thing when they get spanked off PSG or whoever they come up against 

[Maroon Sailor]

In the Premier League, it will only be used for "clear and obvious errors" or "serious missed incidents", such as goals, penalty decisions, direct red card incidents and cases of mistaken identity.

 

 

Handball 

Deliberate handball is still an offence, but accidental handball can also be a free-kick or penalty.

 

Even if it's a mistake, if the ball goes into the goal off an attacking player's hand, then a free-kick will be awarded to the opposing team

 

 

 

 

 

2 things I get from that

 

The ball didn't go into the goal off the Wolves player's hand.

 

Accidental handball CAN not WILL also be a free-kick. 

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

In the Premier League, it will only be used for "clear and obvious errors" or "serious missed incidents", such as goals, penalty decisions, direct red card incidents and cases of mistaken identity.

 

 

Handball 

Deliberate handball is still an offence, but accidental handball can also be a free-kick or penalty.

 

Even if it's a mistake, if the ball goes into the goal off an attacking player's hand, then a free-kick will be awarded to the opposing team

 

2 things I get from that

 

The ball didn't go into the goal off the Wolves player's hand.

 

Accidental handball CAN not WILL also be a free-kick. 

 

 

You neglected to include the following part of that article:

 

"The same applies if a player gets the ball using his or her arm and then scores, or creates a goal-scoring opportunity, such as Ellen White's disallowed goal against Sweden in the Women's World Cup third-place play-off."

 

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

 

You neglected to include the following part of that article:

 

"The same applies if a player gets the ball using his or her arm and then scores, or creates a goal-scoring opportunity, such as Ellen White's disallowed goal against Sweden in the Women's World Cup third-place play-off."

 

 

Right so what changed that ?

 

VAR !

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Right so what changed that ?

 

VAR !

 

VAR does change things not clearly visible. This hand ball. The marginal offside especially. 

 

Strict interpretation of the laws of the game. 

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Right so what changed that ?

 

VAR !

 

I don't think you understand. Even if VAR hadn't been introduced to the EPL this season, this rule change would still have been made for referees to implement. It's all part of the authorities trying to sort out the mixed-up laws relating to handball at the moment, laws which have not been created by VAR but highlighted by it. All you're doing is bringing a spotlight to the fact that in the Wolves game, VAR got the application of that rule correct. If you're wanting to argue against VAR then you should find some instance where VAR actually got it wrong (or argue solely on the time taken for decisions to be made, lack of spontaneity, confusion at games, etc.).

[Maroon Sailor]

6 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I don't think you understand. Even if VAR hadn't been introduced to the EPL this season, this rule change would still have been made for referees to implement. It's all part of the authorities trying to sort out the mixed-up laws relating to handball at the moment, laws which have not been created by VAR but highlighted by it. All you're doing is bringing a spotlight to the fact that in the Wolves game, VAR got the application of that rule correct. If you're wanting to argue against VAR then you should find some instance where VAR actually got it wrong (or argue solely on the time taken for decisions to be made, lack of spontaneity, confusion at games, etc.).

 

I'm not arguing about VAR as a concept - just the way it's being used.

 

No way that Wolves goal should have been disallowed imo and I have given a scenario when it should be disallowed.

 

You still need common sense - VAR doesn't allow that.

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Maroon Sailor

[XB52]

17 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

I'm not arguing about VAR as a concept - just the way it's being used.

 

No way that Wolves goal should have been disallowed imo and I have given a scenario when it should be disallowed.

 

You still need common sense - VAR doesn't allow that.

 

 

 

Var doesn't make the rules so, by the rules, var made sure the correct decisions were made

[Maroon Sailor]

4 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Var doesn't make the rules so, by the rules, var made sure the correct decisions were made

 

The rules have changed because of VAR - common sense of applying the rules have gone due to technology.

 

The ball could ricochet off a defender's arm in his own corner quadrant, he lumps it forward, not looking for a team mate, just to clear his lines, an attacker outpaces the defender, rounds the keeper and scores. So a good bit of play has ensued before a goal was scored but VAR would rule the goal out

[babywhalo]

1 hour ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

That's the whole point - it hit his arm (accidentally) knew nothing about it, let play continue like it would in the middle of the park.

Which is fair enough if you think that, but you have a problem with this rule then surely (not VAR)

[Footballfirst]

9 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

The rules have changed because of VAR - common sense of applying the rules have gone due to technology.

 

The ball could ricochet off a defender's arm in his own corner quadrant, he lumps it forward, not looking for a team mate, just to clear his lines, an attacker outpaces the defender, rounds the keeper and scores. So a good bit of play has ensued before a goal was scored but VAR would rule the goal out

VAR did not change the rules. IFAB did.

 

I have more concern about IFAB than I do about VAR, as they have introduced new interpretations of rules that are applied differently depending where the offence occurred on the park, e.g. handball inside or outside the box.  That IMO is wrong.

 

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, babywhalo said:

Which is fair enough if you think that, but you have a problem with this rule then surely (not VAR)

 

VAR is only concerned if a goal is scored from accidental handball

[redjambo]

12 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

The rules have changed because of VAR - common sense of applying the rules have gone due to technology.

 

The ball could ricochet off a defender's arm in his own corner quadrant, he lumps it forward, not looking for a team mate, just to clear his lines, an attacker outpaces the defender, rounds the keeper and scores. So a good bit of play has ensued before a goal was scored but VAR would rule the goal out

 

Wait to see if that happens in a VAR environment (how often does it actually happen in reality?). Otherwise, you're creating demons that don't exist just to back up your arguments. By the way, as an old-timer, what the heck is a "corner quadrant"? I've never heard of that one before. Sounds like a Cathro-type thing.

[Maroon Sailor]

5 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

VAR did not change the rules. IFAB did.

 

I have more concern about IFAB than I do about VAR, as they have introduced new interpretations of rules that are applied differently depending where the offence occurred on the park, e.g. handball inside or outside the box.  That IMO is wrong.

 

 

The use of technology brought about some of these rule changes. Technology has it's place for clear and obvious errors missed by the match officials and has worked a treat in assisting them with goal line decisions. They are just pushing the boat out too far imo

 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Maroon Sailor

[babywhalo]

1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

The use of technology brought about some of these rule changes. Technology has it's place for clear and obvious errors missed by the match officials and has worked a treat with goal line technology. They are just pushing the boat out too far imo

 

 

To be clear, VAR and the use of technology did not bring about the particular rules change that we are currently discussing 

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, babywhalo said:

To be clear, VAR and the use of technology did not bring about the particular rules change that we are currently discussing 

 

That Wolves goal stands last season

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

VAR is only concerned if a goal is scored from accidental handball

 

Not true. If there is a deliberate handball then VAR would be involved too.

 

Here, knock yourself out: http://theifab.com/document/laws-of-the-game

 

Show me where any of the laws says that it will be applied differently in a game where VAR is used and where it isn't used.

[Maroon Sailor]

5 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Wait to see if that happens in a VAR environment (how often does it actually happen in reality?). Otherwise, you're creating demons that don't exist just to back up your arguments. By the way, as an old-timer, what the heck is a "corner quadrant"? I've never heard of that one before. Sounds like a Cathro-type thing.

 

I am saying they have opened up a can of worms

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

Not true. If there is a deliberate handball then VAR would be involved too.

 

Here, knock yourself out: http://theifab.com/document/laws-of-the-game

 

Show me where any of the laws says that it will be applied differently in a game where VAR is used and where it isn't used.

 

Wolves goal stands last season - yes or no ?

[babywhalo]

Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

 

That Wolves goal stands last season

Of course it does, because they changed the rules at the start of this season.

 

But they didnt change this particular rule because of VAR, I explained earlier in the thread why they changed it. 

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, babywhalo said:

To be clear, VAR and the use of technology did not bring about the particular rules change that we are currently discussing 

 

I think VAR did in a way because it highlighted and brought focus on how, for example, the handball rules aren't quite working if the laws are strictly interpreted. That's why the IFAB are now trying to devise strictly applicable laws that actually work and at the same time are deemed common sense. They're not there yet. VAR will undoubtedly highlight more situations where strict interpretation of the laws doesn't quite work e.g. goalkeepers coming off their line as well as player encroachment at penalties.

[XB52]

26 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

The rules have changed because of VAR - common sense of applying the rules have gone due to technology.

 

The ball could ricochet off a defender's arm in his own corner quadrant, he lumps it forward, not looking for a team mate, just to clear his lines, an attacker outpaces the defender, rounds the keeper and scores. So a good bit of play has ensued before a goal was scored but VAR would rule the goal out

Var doesn't rule it out, the rules rule it out. Not saying I agree with the new rules but everyone knows them, players anyway

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

I am saying they have opened up a can of worms

 

I agree with that in so far as VAR has forced the FAIB to look at certain laws of the game and think again about how they should be specified. That's not too bad a thing, but it means occasional disputed and non common-sense decisions until they've worked things out.

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, XB52 said:

Var doesn't rule it out, the rules rule it out. Not saying I agree with the new rules but everyone knows them, players anyway

 

If it doesn't go to VAR the goal stands. Every goal is looked at by VAR - that is the rule.

[babywhalo]

5 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

If it doesn't go to VAR the goal stands. Every goal is looked at by VAR - that is the rule.

If the ref never made a mistake, they wouldn't have to go to VAR

[babywhalo]

9 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I think VAR did in a way because it highlighted and brought focus on how, for example, the handball rules aren't quite working if the laws are strictly interpreted. That's why the IFAB are now trying to devise strictly applicable laws that actually work and at the same time are deemed common sense. They're not there yet. VAR will undoubtedly highlight more situations where strict interpretation of the laws doesn't quite work e.g. goalkeepers coming off their line as well as player encroachment at penalties.

Whilst I agree that VAR will probably change some rules going forward and highlight vagaries in some existing rules, this particular rule change had nothing to do with VAR. Honestly!

[Maroon Sailor]

7 minutes ago, babywhalo said:

If the ref never made a mistake, they wouldn't have to go to VAR

 

Every goal is checked by VAR. That incident happened in the blink of an eye and was not clear and obvious, so hardly a mistake by the ref.

 

 

[babywhalo]

Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Every goal is checked by VAR. That incident happened in the blink of an eye and was not clear and obvious, so hardly a mistake by the ref.

 

 

What do you mean "hardly a mistake by the ref".

 

It's either a mistake or it isn't, and in this case it was

[Maroon Sailor]

9 minutes ago, babywhalo said:

Whilst I agree that VAR will probably change some rules going forward and highlight vagaries in some existing rules, this particular rule change had nothing to do with VAR. Honestly!

 

So why was the goal disallowed ? Accidental handball CAN be given as a free-kick not WILL be given.

 

In the case of VAR it will be given

[Maroon Sailor]

2 minutes ago, babywhalo said:

What do you mean "hardly a mistake by the ref".

 

It's either a mistake or it isn't, and in this case it was

 

What was his mistake ?

 

 

[babywhalo]

1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

So why was the goal disallowed ? Accidental handball CAN be given as a free-kick not WILL be given.

 

In the case of VAR it will be given

Redjambo has already answered that one. 

[babywhalo]

1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

What was his mistake ?

 

 

There was a handball in the lead up to the goal and he didnt penalise it...

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, babywhalo said:

There was a handball in the lead up to the goal and he didnt penalise it...

 

It was accidental handball which can be given as a free-kick. The guidelines under VAR dismiss that rule if a goal ensues.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Maroon Sailor

[Tasavallan]

1 hour ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

 

The point was more a general one, look at the decline in interest in F1 over the last 10 years. Too many rules, too many stewards enquiries. Nobody cares about that sport any more, it’s boring 

 

I used to be an avid follower of F1.  After Nigel Mansell retired, not so much.  Then we had all the rule changes and I lost interest.  I have not watched a F1 Grand Prix race since Hamilton started racing.  All these new tracks that Bernie Ecclestone approved in Middle East and Asian countries purely for the $$$$ bored me.   I stopped watching. 

 

Due to the quality of football officials and the speed of play, VAR was inevitable.  However, it is still only as good as the interpretation of the VAR official(s).   It is the same problem in rugby where the TMO sees things differently.  Never, going to be perfect but VAR is better than an official's split-second view.  

[babywhalo]

38 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

It was accidental handball which can be given as a free-kick. The guidelines under VAR dismiss that rule if a goal ensues.

 

 

Any sort of handball (accidental or deliberate) is an offence if it leads to a goal. The rules are pretty clear on this (& it has nothing to do with VAR)

[Maroon Sailor]

2 minutes ago, babywhalo said:

Any sort of handball (accidental or deliberate) is an offence if it leads to a goal. The rules are pretty clear on this (& it has nothing to do with VAR)

 

So a defender in his attempt to clear the ball heads it onto an opponent's arm, the ball breaks to his team mate who fires it in to the net.

 

Goal or no goal ?

 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Maroon Sailor

[Maroon Sailor]

Ref Quiz - Test your knowledge

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49056967

[babywhalo]

6 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

So a defender in his attempt to clear the ball heads it onto an opponent's arm, the ball breaks to his team mate who fires it in to the net.

 

Goal or no goal ?

 

 

No goal, clearly 

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, babywhalo said:

No goal, clearly 

 

Fantastic rule that is - get penalised for a shit attempt by a defender to head the ball clear !

 

 

[babywhalo]

5 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Fantastic rule that is - get penalised for a shit attempt by a defender to head the ball clear !

 

 

So you think the rule is shit...

 

Fair enough and I can see your point.

 

But it is nowt to do with VAR, I think we can maybe agree...?

[XB52]

4 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

If it doesn't go to VAR the goal stands. Every goal is looked at by VAR - that is the rule.

not sure what your point is anymore. There was hand ball in the lead up to a goal so the goal didn't count, as per the rules. VAR corrected the officials missing this.

In Scotland we don't have VAR but we play to the same rules as the rest of the World

[buzz]

Was VAR not supposed to assist referees when a ‘clear and obvious ‘ mistake had been made? The Wolves one didn’t really seem to be ‘clear and obvious ‘

It looks like they check every goal scored, looking for reasons to disallow it. Not what most fans want to see I suspect.

[Footballfirst]

2 minutes ago, buzz said:

Was VAR not supposed to assist referees when a ‘clear and obvious ‘ mistake had been made? The Wolves one didn’t really seem to be ‘clear and obvious ‘

It looks like they check every goal scored, looking for reasons to disallow it. Not what most fans want to see I suspect.

 

All goals are now routinely checked in the EPL. It's akin to a rugby referee asking the question to a TMO "Is there any reason why I can't award a try?"

 

I disagree that it's "not what most fans want to see".  If you are a fan of a side conceding a contentious goal, you want VAR to correct any error. The same fan may have the opposite view if their side had just scored a dubious goal.

[babywhalo]

Footballfirst is right. All goals are checked. The "clear and obvious" part of VAR does not apply here (& this saying seems to cause a lot of confusion for a lot of folk)

[Bellion]

2 hours ago, babywhalo said:

Footballfirst is right. All goals are checked. The "clear and obvious" part of VAR does not apply here (& this saying seems to cause a lot of confusion for a lot of folk)

It does apply.  All goals are checked as a matter of routine but the on field decision should only be changed in the case of a clear and obvious error.  The Wolves handball goal was such an error in the sense that it’s not allowed under the rules and the officials didn’t spot it. 

 

Still an absolute mess in my opinion.  Looks like I might have to get used to it though. 

 

 

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

4 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

 

All goals are now routinely checked in the EPL. It's akin to a rugby referee asking the question to a TMO "Is there any reason why I can't award a try?"

 

I disagree that it's "not what most fans want to see".  If you are a fan of a side conceding a contentious goal, you want VAR to correct any error. The same fan may have the opposite view if their side had just scored a dubious goal.

 

To summarise what I have read in lots of places: VAR is A Good Idea.

Until one of the decisions goes against your team.

[Maroon Sailor]

5 hours ago, XB52 said:

not sure what your point is anymore. There was hand ball in the lead up to a goal so the goal didn't count, as per the rules. VAR corrected the officials missing this.

In Scotland we don't have VAR but we play to the same rules as the rest of the World

 

Can't be bothered with this anymore as I am sick of of trying to get my point across.

 

 

Edit - Buzz gets it !

Edited August 12, 2019 by Maroon Sailor

[Taffin]

This thread is hard reading.

 

VAR get decision correct

'VAR is stupid'

It wasn't VAR it was the new rules

'But VAR made the rules'

VAR didn't make the rules

'It wouldn't have happened last year'

I know

'I don't like VAR'

 

It's like pulling teeth. VAR has it's shortfalls for sure and how it was used in the women's world cup wasn't great but in this instance it was correct and you also can't be slightly offside but onside. You're either on, or you're off. Do I like the new handball rule? No, but VAR isn't to blame for that.

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Taffin

[Maroon Sailor]

But the main controversy came early in the second half when Dendoncker put the ball in the back of the net and Wolves were celebrating before the goal was overturned.

 

"I thought it was a goal, we were ready to start again and VAR [on the big screen] said it might've seen something and I was surprised," said Dendoncker.

"Willy Boly was just jumping and I had no clue it was a handball. It's a new rule so we have to adapt to it and get used to it."

 

 

 

I refuse to accept that this new rule has nothing to do with the inception of VAR.

 

They've laid down a marker now so there is no going back. Every accidental handball that leads to a goal has to be disallowed. I think it's harsh but hey-ho we'll see if the rule applies to all clubs.

[XB52]

8 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

 

They've laid down a marker now so there is no going back. Every accidental handball that leads to a goal has to be disallowed. I think it's harsh but hey-ho we'll see if the rule applies to all clubs.

Finally you get it. The rule, whether there is var or not, is that any handball that leads to a goal means the goal is disallowed. Most agree that it's very harsh but that is the new rule and it's not var that makes the rule, it just helps the ref implement it.