Betfred Cup - fixtures announced ( updated )

[Mikey1874]

4 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Like a draw and then getting a trophy for winning a penalty shoot out then?

 

Nothing like it. In knock out games a penalty shoot out wins the game. 

 

Just a 'bonus point' in group. 

 

https://spfl.co.uk/league/league-cup/format

[Mr Elwood P]

5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Nothing like it. In knock out games a penalty shoot out wins the game. 

 

Just a 'bonus point' in group. 

 

https://spfl.co.uk/league/league-cup/format

 

Group matches

Clubs are awarded the usual three points for a win but all drawn games in the group stage go straight to penalties - the shoot-out winners receive a bonus point. ie three points for a win, two points for a shoot-out win and one point for losing on penalties.

 

Hearts shootout winners 2 points.

 

Raith Rovers shoutout losers 1 point.

 

 

Not sure how that can be interpreted not as a Hearts win. For a match to be drawn you would need each team to have achieved the same points.

[Jammy T]

38 minutes ago, Gambo said:

That makes it alright then.

 

Makes what alright?

 

We just got to the semi of one cup and the final of another - what are you going on about??

Edited June 5, 2019 by Jammy T

[Mikey1874]

27 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Group matches

Clubs are awarded the usual three points for a win but all drawn games in the group stage go straight to penalties - the shoot-out winners receive a bonus point. ie three points for a win, two points for a shoot-out win and one point for losing on penalties.

 

Hearts shootout winners 2 points.

 

Raith Rovers shoutout losers 1 point.

 

 

Not sure how that can be interpreted not as a Hearts win. For a match to be drawn you would need each team to have achieved the same points.

 

Hearts v Raith was a draw with Hearts getting a point for winning penalty shoot out. A win is 3 points. Hearts got 2..

[Mr Elwood P]

17 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Hearts v Raith was a draw with Hearts getting a point for winning penalty shoot out. A win is 3 points. Hearts got 2..

 

But a draw is the award of 1 point to each team so surely it isn’t a draw either? I reckon it was more a win than a draw. Maybe just a positive / negative mindset as the previous poster suggested.

 

[kila]

Do you reckon the Dundee United game is first and on BT in case we **** up with an ineligible player again?

 

The 2 point deduction we got was just enough to keep the final game v Inverness on BT relevant rather than a dead rubber.

 

 

[iantjambo]

20 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

But a draw is the award of 1 point to each team so surely it isn’t a draw either? I reckon it was more a win than a draw. Maybe just a positive / negative mindset as the previous poster suggested.

 

 

Again, it depends on the circumstances. I’d argue that two points against a Raith team that lost their other 3 games was a point dropped as opposed to one gained.

 

You’re correct when you called it a weird little quirk of the cup.

[davemclaren]

3 hours ago, rick witter said:

Spot on 

To be fair, Celtic and Rangers fans ‘not accepting’ defeats by teams below them doesn’t actually prevent it from happening. 

[been here before]

1 hour ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

But a draw is the award of 1 point to each team so surely it isn’t a draw either? I reckon it was more a win than a draw. Maybe just a positive / negative mindset as the previous poster suggested.

 

 

Christ. Have you moved to Hamilton?

[Gambo]

2 hours ago, Jammy T said:

 

Makes what alright?

 

We just got to the semi of one cup and the final of another - what are you going on about??

And won f-all.

 

You tried to justify not winning 4 games v lower league teams because other Hearts managers before had not done it.

 

Most Hearts fans would say that we should be winning these 4 games, not looking g for excuses before the games have taken place.

We should be expecting to win all 4, it might not happen but we should be expecting to win all 4.

 

[Mr Elwood P]

37 minutes ago, been here before said:

 

Christ. Have you moved to Hamilton?

 

 No just think if one team gets awarded double the amount of

points the other team is awarded, then it can’t constitute a draw. Sure if we had lost the penalty shootout plenty of folk would claim we had lost the match .  

[been here before]

2 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

 No just think if one team gets awarded double the amount of

points the other team is awarded, then it can’t constitute a draw. Sure if we had lost the penalty shootout plenty of folk would claim we had lost the match .  

 

OK you're not in Hamilton. Shall we give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're just being obtuse then?

[Mr Elwood P]

Just now, been here before said:

 

OK you're not in Hamilton. Shall we give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're just being obtuse then?

 

Not being obtuse at all. A draw both teams get equal points. As I said it’s a weird quirk of the BetFred Cup. Any other competition in football history a penalty shootout win, means that you win the match. This setup is a weird grey area. If we win two home games outright and win the two away games on penalties we’d have 10 points and win the group regardless.

[Maroon Sailor]

3 wins and a bonus point win = sorted

[been here before]

16 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Not being obtuse at all. A draw both teams get equal points. As I said it’s a weird quirk of the BetFred Cup. Any other competition in football history a penalty shootout win, means that you win the match. This setup is a weird grey area. If we win two home games outright and win the two away games on penalties we’d have 10 points and win the group regardless.

 

Theres only a grey are if one of 3 things are happening...

 

1. You're in Hamilton

2. You're being obtuse

3. You're stupid.

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

But a draw is the award of 1 point to each team so surely it isn’t a draw either? I reckon it was more a win than a draw. Maybe just a positive / negative mindset as the previous poster suggested.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Not being obtuse at all. A draw both teams get equal points. As I said it’s a weird quirk of the BetFred Cup. Any other competition in football history a penalty shootout win, means that you win the match. This setup is a weird grey area. If we win two home games outright and win the two away games on penalties we’d have 10 points and win the group regardless.

 

You have got a point. Whoever wrote the Wikipedia page has got an interesting take on the group table which distinguishes the penalty games. Possibly taking their lead from Betfred. Others show the games as draws. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_Scottish_League_Cup

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Mr Elwood P]

6 minutes ago, been here before said:

 

Theres only a grey are if one of 3 things are happening...

 

1. You're in Hamilton

2. You're being obtuse

3. You're stupid.

 

Perhaps not appreciating that a grey area exists is stupid? If we win on penalties against Dundee United and both teams win their subsequent 3 games we win

the group by one point. That penalty shootout would determine the winner of the group. Definitely

looks like a win to me.

[Mr Elwood P]

14 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

You have got a point. Whoever wrote the Wikipedia page has got an interesting take on the group table which distinguishes the penalty games. Possibly taking their lead from Betfred. Others show the games as draws. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_Scottish_League_Cup

 

 

 

 

 

Nice to see someone do some research instead of just dismissing another point of view as being ‘stupid’! It can be interpreted different ways and it seems different media sources have done just that. Worth noting that if you won all four games on penalties you would have 8 points, where as a team that won 2 games in 90 mins and lost 2 games in 90 mins would only have 6.

[Shaggy2]

What a weird argument over not a lot. At the end of the day there are two ways to WIN a Betfred tie, over 90 minutes or on penalties. You cannot draw a Betfred game and the extra point can prove crucial as it did in our case because of the deduction. 

Having said that, you can bet on the draw over 90 minutes, and officially it’s 1-1 for gambling purposes. 

It just gives bookies more ways to skin a punter (great for the sponsor) as they’ll pay out on Home/Away/Draw over 90 mins, as Raith v Hearts was, plus they’ll add the option of Home/Away on pens. People may chase their losses with the penalties as an in-play bet, which again the sponsor will love! 

[kila]

12 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Perhaps not appreciating that a grey area exists is stupid? If we win on penalties against Dundee United and both teams win their subsequent 3 games we win

the group by one point. That penalty shootout would determine the winner of the group. Definitely

looks like a win to me.

 

Way I see it is for stat reasons, a draw after 90 mins of football is a draw.

 

Penalty shootouts, especially that point in 'pre-season' make it even more of a random decider. Might help a team get out the group, but it shouldn't mask a draw into making it seem better.

 

 

[Mr Elwood P]

4 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Way I see it is for stat reasons, a draw after 90 mins of football is a draw.

 

Penalty shootouts, especially that point in 'pre-season' make it even more of a random decider. Might help a team get out the group, but it shouldn't mask a draw into making it seem better.

 

 

 

I don’t think the BetFred Cup is pre-season and the whole point of a penalty shootout is to determine a winner. In the Istanbul Champions League Final after Liverpool 3 v 3 Milan, did Milan feel like they’d drawn the match after losing the penalty shootout?

[kila]

1 minute ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

I don’t think the BetFred Cup is pre-season and the whole point of a penalty shootout is to determine a winner. In the Istanbul Champions League Final after Liverpool 3 v 3 Milan, did Milan feel like they’d drawn the match after losing the penalty shootout?

 

I mean at the point of the season that it happens, it is a very early start. So the penalties might not be the most polished

 

Milan drew after 120 mins of playing actual football but it still couldn't be decided who is best. If you tell people Liverpool won the final but don't mention it went to penalties, it masks the game and that it was all square.

 

For stats, I'd say that game was a draw, with Liverpool winning on penalties.

 

 

[Mr Elwood P]

2 minutes ago, kila said:

 

I mean at the point of the season that it happens, it is a very early start. So the penalties might not be the most polished

 

Milan drew after 120 mins of playing actual football but it still couldn't be decided who is best. If you tell people Liverpool won the final but don't mention it went to penalties, it masks the game and that it was all square.

 

For stats, I'd say that game was a draw, with Liverpool winning on penalties.

 

 

 

No doubt that the result after 90 minutes is a draw. I just think the determination of the result of the match overall is decided by the penalty shootout.

[kila]

4 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

No doubt that the result after 90 minutes is a draw. I just think the determination of the result of the match overall is decided by the penalty shootout.

 

It depends on the context of what you are comparing though, the purpose of the stats you are using. You can use penalty shootouts to mask games into making them look like wins after 90 or 120 mins of football. Which isn't a fair comparison to wins that were achieved by actually playing football and within time.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by kila

[Mr Elwood P]

1 minute ago, kila said:

 

It depends on the context of what you are comparing though, the purpose of the stats you are using. You can use penalty shootouts to mask games into making them look like wins.

 

 

That’s why penalties are used exclusively in cup competitions though, they determine who wins and who loses. The only thing that matters is getting to the next round, then getting to the next round and then lifting the cup. The winner is the team that progresses. If we’d beaten Celtic on penalties two weeks ago it would still be one of our greatest victories.  

[davemclaren]

29 minutes ago, kila said:

 

It depends on the context of what you are comparing though, the purpose of the stats you are using. You can use penalty shootouts to mask games into making them look like wins after 90 or 120 mins of football. Which isn't a fair comparison to wins that were achieved by actually playing football and within time.

 

 

 

 

?????‍♂️?

[i8hibsh]

Summer camps in Ireland and trips to John O'Grotes eh

 

[Special Officer Doofy]

6 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

Summer camps in Ireland and trips to John O'Grotes eh

 

 

Aaawww... have fun mate. Sounds brilliant. You taking the ferries?

[davemclaren]

1 hour ago, i8hibsh said:

Summer camps in Ireland and trips to John O'Grotes eh

 

Is that important? I tend to find the preseason a poor indicator of form

through the season.  

[jambosdad]

That date is a bit ominous and TV coverage as well.  Hopefully Billy Boys will be away marching and no bad publicity for us. 

[Footballfirst]

Heart of Midlothian‏Verified account @JamTarts 26s26 seconds ago

More

Tickets for our two Betfred Cup group stage home games will go on sale to season ticket holders on Thursday !

vs Dundee Utd (12/07)

vs Stenhousemuir (24/07)

Adults: £12 | O65s & Students: £6 | Kids (U16s): £3

Edited June 10, 2019 by Footballfirst

[The Frenchman Returns]

6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Heart of Midlothian‏Verified account @JamTarts 26s26 seconds ago

More

Tickets for our two Betfred Cup group stage home games will go on sale to season ticket holders on Thursday !

vs Dundee Utd (12/07)

vs Stenhousemuir (24/07)

Adults: £12 | O65s & Students: £6 | Kids (U16s): £3

Loyalty points?

[Mr Elwood P]

8 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Heart of Midlothian‏Verified account @JamTarts 26s26 seconds ago

More

Tickets for our two Betfred Cup group stage home games will go on sale to season ticket holders on Thursday !

vs Dundee Utd (12/07)

vs Stenhousemuir (24/07)

Adults: £12 | O65s & Students: £6 | Kids (U16s): £3

 

Decent.

[Newton51]

Only main stand and Gorgie fir united game. Main only for Cowdenbeath. No wheat field unless demand there. I know this caused issues last season

[been here before]

12 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Heart of Midlothian‏Verified account @JamTarts 26s26 seconds ago

More

Tickets for our two Betfred Cup group stage home games will go on sale to season ticket holders on Thursday !

vs Dundee Utd (12/07)

vs Stenhousemuir (24/07)

Adults: £12 | O65s & Students: £6 | Kids (U16s): £3

 

 

Id forgotten about this. Football is back!!

 

3 minutes ago, Newton51 said:

Only main stand and Gorgie fir united game. Main only for Cowdenbeath. No wheat field unless demand there. I know this caused issues last season

 

 

It didnt really. It just caused a few whinging dicks on here to lose their shite over not very much.

[Notts1874]

Skylounge open for Dundee Utd game. £108. Three course meal and free drink.

[Mr Elwood P]

16 minutes ago, Newton51 said:

Only main stand and Gorgie fir united game. Main only for Cowdenbeath. No wheat field unless demand there. I know this caused issues last season

 

Yeah, 5,000 supporters won’t be back. Mad Budgie Ooooot

[Jambo01]

For the Dundee united game

I am a season ticket holder but need an additional ticket for a family member.

Will i need to wait until general sale?

[Lambo85]

More E ticket problems.

 

I am trying to buy 3 tickets for the Dundee Utd match and its not letting me Assign the other 2 tickets to my Dad and my mate even though they are season ticket holders.

[Lambo85]

"There are errors on the page

Unfortunately, the client you have selected does not have the correct criteria to purchase seats on this event. Please check what is required to purchase seats on this event and try again."

 

There is the warning I am getting. Even though the people I am trying to assign are season ticket holders.

 

New Season same E Ticket shambles.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Lambo85

[stevie7147]

6 minutes ago, Lambo85 said:

"There are errors on the page

Unfortunately, the client you have selected does not have the correct criteria to purchase seats on this event. Please check what is required to purchase seats on this event and try again."

 

There is the warning I am getting. Even though the people I am trying to assign are season ticket holders.

 

New Season same E Ticket shambles.

having the same problem too

[GorgieFifeLife]

Yet another shambles when it comes to buying tickets we really are absolute tinpot in this respect. 

[Lambo85]

I am sick of getting onto E tcikets early. Picking really good seats. Then because of a cock up in the system, having to wait to buy them and ended up with a worse seat.

 

Hearts need to sort this out.

[WeeToonJambo]

I had the same problem plus it didn't show the seating plan.  Logged out and back in again, Worked perfectly this time and tickets purchased for both games.  Chose print at home and now have the tickets in front of me.

Edited June 13, 2019 by WeeToonJambo

[vintage1874]

1 minute ago, WeeToonJambo said:

I had the same problem plus it didn't show the seating plan.  Logged out and back in again, Worked perfectly this time and tickets purchased for both games.  Chose print at home and now have the tickets in front of me.

 

I only got the option of collect from TO no postage or print at home. Och well an excuse to head through to tynie over summer

[gnasher75]

Glad it's not just me.  I got through to the ticket office and got the tickets I wanted with no problem.  But a waste of 40 minutes of my life!

 

I reported the problem that we're have online and was told there wasn't a problem!

[Lambo85]

9 minutes ago, WeeToonJambo said:

I had the same problem plus it didn't show the seating plan.  Logged out and back in again, Worked perfectly this time and tickets purchased for both games.  Chose print at home and now have the tickets in front of me.

 

I logged out and logged back in but still having the same problems. Not letting me assign anyone to the other 2 tickets that I need even though they are ST holders.

 

Trip to the TO at lunch in the pissing rain for me then.

 

 

[gnasher75]

One thing to try... if it's under 16s, log in to their accounts and make sure that there is a permission box ticked for you to buy tickets on their behalf.

[Lambo85]

5 minutes ago, gnasher75 said:

Glad it's not just me.  I got through to the ticket office and got the tickets I wanted with no problem.  But a waste of 40 minutes of my life!

 

I reported the problem that we're have online and was told there wasn't a problem!

 

I wonder if it is a problem at Hearts end as I have noticed that my loyalty points for renewing my season ticket have not been added yet.

[Lambo85]

Just now, gnasher75 said:

One thing to try... if it's under 16s, log in to their accounts and make sure that there is a permission box ticked for you to buy tickets on their behalf.

 

Its not under 16's mate. Its for my Dad and my mate.