US Open Tennis

[Ray Gin]

I seem to remember McEnroe being docked points at Wimbledon and being outright disqualified from the Australian Open for his meltdowns.

 

That was down to sexism too I suppose.

[Ray Gin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/41586968

 

Sexist  

[I P Knightley]

4 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Or.......she questioned the umpire’s integrity, an act that is explicitly stated in the laws as being a serious violation. 

 

Sue Barker said she has heard worse from the men, but I just feel there is a difference between arguing a point and disagreeing with a decision, and outright calling the umpire a cheat. 

 

Unfortunately nobody seems to be asking for evidence if men doing the same, and give names. 

 

 

Sue Barker's a dribbling old fool.

1 hour ago, DETTY29 said:

I wonder what the other recent precedents and punishments have been for similar attacks, male or female? I'm not counting Nastasie / McEnroe, different era, different levels of 'obscene' prize money and today's sports people because of fame, social media, sponsorship and so on are meant to be even greater role models.

 

Personally, I now hope the officials stick together and treat her completely by the rule book and zero tolerance.

 

 

You've written "recent". The highest profile recently has been Kyrgios. He's not (to the best of my knowledge) gone full out and called an umpire a liar and a thief but he's certainly been picked up for his antics.

 

Benoit Paire acted like a dick in a recent tournament in Washington and was docked points.

 

There's only one reason that Williams came out with that claim and that was to deflect from her appalling, entitled attitude and behaviour. And now we've got all the Lebanese wimmin jumping on the bandwagon to get their moment in the press.

 

I don't doubt her claim that she never 'received' the coaching; Mouratoglou clearly made signals towards her - she says she didn't see them and that should be the end of the matter. It was a warning was all; after which Mouratoulou stopped doing it. There was no need to drag it out into a personal attack on the umpire but she just can't help herself. I wonder how long she'll hang on to Mouratoglou - she treats him like shit most of the time as it is.

 

I also don't doubt that she has suffered extensive racism and sexism throughout her life and career but this was NOT one of those instances.

 

1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Utterly incredible the way the WTA and others are fighting her corner. Proof that she's bigger than the women's game and that the sport has no standards.

Worse was the statement from the USTA shortly after the match saying how Serena was a credit to the game (or words of that nature). Absolutely no backing for 'their man', the umpire.

[I P Knightley]

30 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/41586968

 

Sexist  

I forgot about Fognini - the man's a nutjob!

[Nookie Bear]

2 hours ago, Thaw said:

 

I tried to search for stats on players' discipline this season, but they didn't seem easy to find. However, this below-the-line comment in the Guardian comes across as fair-minded and knowledgeable:

 

"He [the umpire] called three code violations. The first for 'coaching' - the offence being committed by the coach, but counting against the player as a code violation. The second for racket abuse, when Serena smashed a racket (this is more or less automatic, if you actually render the racket unusable, it is called a code violation just about every time). The third for verbal abuse, when Serena demanded he apologize to her and called him a 'thief'.

 

The rule is that there is no direct penalty for a first code violation. For a second code violation, you get a point penalty (meaning that the next point is awarded to your opponent). As the second code violation was given right after a game that Serena served, Osaka was awarded the first point of her next service game and started at 15-0 (she then served the game out easily to love). For a third code violation (and each subsequent violation after that), you get a game penalty, meaning you immediately lose the game in progress. As the third violation was again awarded between games (just as Serena was walking out to receive at 3-4), that meant the entire game was immediately awarded to Osaka, meaning the score went to 3-5 on Serena's serve.

 

So far as the consequences of the violations went, everything was handled exactly correctly. Each of the violations was certainly defensible within the rules of the game. The racket abuse violation was basically automatic, as I mentioned.

 

The other two are rather more subjective and controversial calls. Coaching is called quite rarely, and it's always controversial, because virtually all coaches "coach" to some extent during a match (often almost subconsciously) and it's pretty hard to discern any kind of consistent 'line' between what's let go and what isn't. I don't think the WTA or ATP or the major rules committees really give out any kind of consistent guidance on what should be called as a violation and what shouldn't, so it's pretty random. Calling a violation on a hand signal from the far end of the court in a major final is a pretty...unusual thing to do (I can't recall any other grand slam final where a coaching violation has been given, but I've certainly seen coaches giving hand signals in grand slam finals before).

 

Verbal abuse is also pretty inconsistently called. I've seen it called for *less* than what Serena said, but I've also seen it *not* called for much *worse* than what Serena said. The call was certainly defensible, but at the same time, there's an argument that it would've been prudent for the umpire to just sit on it, given that Serena was already walking away, and the knowledge that calling the violation would result in a game penalty in part because of a previous arguable violation (the coaching one). I'd say it's a bit like the rule in ice hockey that two false starts on a puck drop results in a minor penalty: in practice the refs almost never call the second false start unless the offence is really egregious.

 

Especially given the situation, it might've worked out better for all parties (especially Osaka) if the umpire hadn't called the verbal abuse violation. He might at least have told Serena "look, don't say another word, or I'll have to give you a verbal abuse violation, and I don't want to do that" - given her an opportunity to just cool it and walk away, and avoid the game penalty being called. It's *extremely* rare for a player to actually get to a game penalty, I don't recall the last time I saw it happen."

 

 

That's a good comment, although i still think there is a clear distinction between verbally abusing the umpire and questioning his integrity.

 

This is the Official US Open ruling:

 

.

VERBAL ABUSE

Players shall not at any time directly or indirectly verbally abuse any official,opponent, sponsor, spectator or other person within the precincts of the tournament site.

Violation of this section shall subject a player to a fine up to $20,000 for each violation. In addition, if such violation occurs during a match (including the warm-up),the player shall be penalised in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule hereinafter set forth. In circumstances that are flagrant and particularly injurious to the success of a tournament, or are singularly egregious, a single violation of this Section shall also constitute the Major Offence of “Aggravated Behaviour” and shall be subject to the additional penalties hereinafter set forth. For the purposes of this Rule, verbal abuse is defined as a statement about an official, opponent, sponsor, spectator or other person that implies dishonesty or is

derogatory, insulting or otherwise abusive.

 

The Point Penalty Schedule to be used for violations set forth above is as follows:

FIRST offence WARNINGSECOND offence POINT PENALTY

THIRD AND EACH SUBSEQUENT offence GAME PENALTY

___________________________________________________

The authorities need to come out and state the facts for what they are.

 

She was warned for coaching. This could be disputed, but did not excuse the next two incidents.

She lost a point for trashing the racket

She lost a game because she implied dishonesty on the part of the umpire.

 

 

 

[I P Knightley]

1 hour ago, I P Knightley said:

I forgot about Fognini - the man's a nutjob!

And, of course, Shapovalov getting a match forfeit for the million to one shot hitting the umpire in the eye.

 

Bloody men! Get away with everything, the bunch of rapists!!

[Nookie Bear]

4 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

And, of course, Shapovalov getting a match forfeit for the million to one shot hitting the umpire in the eye.

 

Bloody men! Get away with everything, the bunch of rapists!!

 

It was some hit, to be fair.

 

Dan Evans' face in the aftermath is priceless (before he knew the extent of the injury, of course!)

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

How long before we get a Guardian opinion piece, written by a black woman, backing Williams? Next 24 hours I reckon.

[Gorgiewave]

6 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

How long before we get a Guardian opinion piece, written by a black woman, backing Williams? Next 24 hours I reckon.

Black women are women of colour now. Don't be racist.

[Bindy Badgy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/45468290

Quote

 

Serena Williams' claims of sexism in the US Open final have been backed by the governing body of women's tennis.

 

WTA chief executive Steve Simon said the umpire showed Williams a different level of tolerance over Saturday's outbursts than if she had been a man.

 

She got a code violation for coaching, a penalty point for racquet abuse and a game penalty for calling the umpire a "thief" in the defeat by Naomi Osaka.

 

The American said it was "sexist" to have been penalised a game.

 

"The WTA believes that there should be no difference in the standards of tolerance provided to the emotions expressed by men versus women," Simon said in a statement.

 

"We do not believe that this was done last night."

 

 

 

 

[DETTY29]

1 hour ago, I P Knightley said:

, of course, Shapovalov getting a match forfeit for the million to one shot hitting the umpire in the eye.

 

Bloody men! Get away with everything, the bunch of rapists!!

Bagdathis (sp); Henman...

 

Interesting views from Virginia Wade on 5L, basically laying 90% of the blame at Williams and saying perhaps the umpire my have tried a little better to calm the intial situation.

 

She also called out Billie Jean King view that blokes do outbursts whereas as women are emotional / hysterical as rubbish.  it should also be noted that the previous times Williams has lost the plot, the officials were female.

 

And lastly she had a view that the top men are more calculated, understand the rules better and no where the boundaries are.  

Edited September 10, 2018 by DETTY29

[Nookie Bear]

50 minutes ago, Stokesy said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/45468290

 

 

 

 

So what does the WTA plan to do next?

 

They have accused the US Open of being sexist, which is a serious accusation, so I expect them to have a something in mind soon to confront the issue head on. 

 

Maybe they shoukd boycott the 2019 tournament?

[Thaw]

1 hour ago, Stokesy said:

 

"The WTA believes that there should be no difference in the standards of tolerance provided to the emotions expressed by men versus women," Simon said in a statement.

 

"We do not believe that this was done last night." 

 

 

 

 

Another example of how poor use of language is often a sign of a poor argument. Who actually talks about "providing" tolerance?

[milky_26]

ITF backing Ramos

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/45477764

[Thaw]

1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

How long before we get a Guardian opinion piece, written by a black woman, backing Williams? Next 24 hours I reckon.

 

You didn't even have to wait ten minutes.

 

Serena Williams’s treatment shows how hard it is to be a black woman at work

[Thaw]

I read the original match report on the Guardian website within an hour of the match finishing. From that article, Williams didn't come out well at all.

 

Yesterday, their coverage was a mix of support and criticism (although the supportive pieces were given more prominence on the home page). Now we have her being almost wholly portrayed as a victim.

 

It is interesting what happens when the focus changes from facts to opinions.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Thaw

[I P Knightley]

1 hour ago, Stokesy said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/45468290

 

 

 

I listened to a BBC radio new reporter saying that the "World Tennis Association" had issued a statement supporting the sexism claim...

57 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

So what does the WTA plan to do next?

 

They have accused the US Open of being sexist, which is a serious accusation, so I expect them to have a something in mind soon to confront the issue head on. 

 

Maybe they should boycott the 2019 tournament?

Let them boycott all tournaments where men and women have competitions side-by-side. See how long they can survive paying out equal prize money.

 

 

[Nookie Bear]

49 minutes ago, Thaw said:

 

You didn't even have to wait ten minutes.

 

Serena Williams’s treatment shows how hard it is to be a black woman at work

 

Painful reading. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Thaw said:

 

You didn't even have to wait ten minutes.

 

Serena Williams’s treatment shows how hard it is to be a black woman at work

Jesus wept. 

That's a brutal read. 

The bird probably believes the pish she's written.

[ri Alban]

Any word on when women will play 5 sets in grand slams? Same money, right. 

[Victorian]

1 hour ago, Thaw said:

 

You didn't even have to wait ten minutes.

 

Serena Williams’s treatment shows how hard it is to be a black woman at work

 

"A couple of years ago I disagreed with a male colleague’s idea and he pulled me aside to tell me I was being aggressive. When I attempted to explain that the word aggressive is racially loaded he burst into tears."

 

I'm all for rooting out any kind of racism but this kind of mindnumbing thing does the fight against racism no good at all.      

 

You're aggressive...

That's racist...

 

What am I missing here?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

3 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

How long before we get a Guardian opinion piece, written by a black woman, backing Williams? Next 24 hours I reckon.

 

Oh look

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/10/serena-williams-black-woman-work-tennis-discrimination

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

"A couple of years ago I disagreed with a male colleague’s idea and he pulled me aside to tell me I was being aggressive. When I attempted to explain that the word aggressive is racially loaded he burst into tears."

 

I'm all for rooting out any kind of racism but this kind of mindnumbing thing does the fight against racism no good at all.      

 

You're aggressive...

That's racist...

 

What am I missing here?

 

The story never happened. That’s what you’re missing.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

The story never happened. That’s what you’re missing.

 

Yeah,  I suppose.    But more the general point being made in the probably fictional tale.

 

[Captain Sausage]

This has turned into a full on millennial shit fest.

 

Serena Williams broke the rules. Serena Williams was punished in line with the rules. Whether the first penalty was harsh or not, there is no excuse for her smashing her racquet or calling him a 'thief' and a 'liar'.

 

Somehow, it's now all turned into poor wee Serena, the oppressed black woman who has defeated the system at every turn. Look at her out there, bravely standing up to sexism by screaming at an umpire when she is in the wrong. Then everyone comes out backing her and she continues to play the victim after the match, despite her coach admitting to the first penalty!

 

Now it's all about how it wouldn't happen if a man behaved like that, despite the Kyrgios/Fognini/Shapalov penalties in line with the rules as well. As far as I can see, there is no direct comparison between Serena and any man (coaching/smashing racquet/insults) but there is previous of Ramos being incredibly harsh and erring on the strict side of the rules.

 

The whole circus that's been dragged out of this is ridiculous. She should be called out for what she is - a sore loser. Again, she has previous for this. She tries to portray herself as the downtrodden, despite being probably the best female tennis player of all time. She's the Celtic of female tennis.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Just now, Victorian said:

 

Yeah,  I suppose.    But more the general point being made in the probably fictional tale.

 

 

It comes down to someone wanting or needing to see racism where their isn’t any. In fact, I’d go further than that and say it’s a glaring example of someone being pulled up for poor behaviour and instinctively playing the race card.

 

I feel bad about saying all this because racism is a very real scourge, especially in the US. But Williams needs some home truths. Brat.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, houstonjambo said:

This has turned into a full on millennial shit fest.

 

Serena Williams broke the rules. Serena Williams was punished in line with the rules. Whether the first penalty was harsh or not, there is no excuse for her smashing her racquet or calling him a 'thief' and a 'liar'.

 

Somehow, it's now all turned into poor wee Serena, the oppressed black woman who has defeated the system at every turn. Look at her out there, bravely standing up to sexism by screaming at an umpire when she is in the wrong. Then everyone comes out backing her and she continues to play the victim after the match, despite her coach admitting to the first penalty!

 

Now it's all about how it wouldn't happen if a man behaved like that, despite the Kyrgios/Fognini/Shapalov penalties in line with the rules as well. As far as I can see, there is no direct comparison between Serena and any man (coaching/smashing racquet/insults) but there is previous of Ramos being incredibly harsh and erring on the strict side of the rules.

 

The whole circus that's been dragged out of this is ridiculous. She should be called out for what she is - a sore loser. Again, she has previous for this. She tries to portray herself as the downtrodden, despite being probably the best female tennis player of all time. She's the Celtic of female tennis.

 

Spot on.  Good summary.    The debate should stick very closely to her insults towards the umpire but,   predictably,   it has been allowed to grow arms and legs and become subject to the worst excesses of people with a pre-determined agenda.

 

She used unacceptable language.    The end.     Sadly not.

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

It comes down to someone wanting or needing to see racism where their isn’t any. In fact, I’d go further than that and say it’s a glaring example of someone being pulled up for poor behaviour and instinctively playing the race card.

 

I feel bad about saying all this because racism is a very real scourge, especially in the US. But Williams needs some home truths. Brat.

 

Pretty much my earlier point.     The overall attitude is eagerly hoovered up by those who want to scream from the rooftops about whichever agenda they're most obsessed about.      Williams is doing more harm than good to the genuine agenda of fighting racism and sexism.     

[Thaw]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

You're aggressive...

That's racist...

 

What am I missing here?

 

Yup, farcical stuff.

[John Findlay]

2 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

Oh look

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/10/serena-williams-black-woman-work-tennis-discrimination

Christ on a bike. More fiction than JK Rowling.

[Mark M]

7 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/41586968

 

Sexist  

 

BBC online now only recruits transgender Eskimos with Gender Studies degrees. They don't even hide their social engineering project anymore. The other day they were pushing this club-killing idiocy.

 

Lewes FC: The football club with same budget for men's & women's teams
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45454977

Edited September 10, 2018 by Mark M

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

? Are we even talking about tennis now? The cork is well and truly out the bottle. Unnerving how much some people are relishing the excuse for scattergun attacks all over the place. 

[Mark M]

38 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

? Are we even talking about tennis now? The cork is well and truly out the bottle. Unnerving how much some people are relishing the excuse for scattergun attacks all over the place. 

 

Point taken. But the msm's unfailing  ability to take the Student Union line rather than general public's (eg such an embarrassment of a case as Sunday Serena) is something else. 

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, Mark M said:

 

BBC online now only recruits transgender Eskimos with Gender Studies degrees. They don't even hide their social engineering project anymore. The other day they were pushing this club-killing idiocy.

 

Lewes FC: The football club with same budget for men's & women's teams
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45454977

 

Tell me, are you actually a football fan, or do you just enjoying going on various forums to put across your sociopolitical viewpoint? Genuine question.

[luckyBatistuta]

5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Any word on when women will play 5 sets in grand slams? Same money, right. 

 

Surely Serena and the rest of her fellow female players and fans have been championing this for a few years now???

 

5 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

"A couple of years ago I disagreed with a male colleague’s idea and he pulled me aside to tell me I was being aggressive. When I attempted to explain that the word aggressive is racially loaded he burst into tears."

 

I'm all for rooting out any kind of racism but this kind of mindnumbing thing does the fight against racism no good at all.      

 

You're aggressive...

That's racist...

 

What am I missing here?

 

Same thing I’m missing?

 

5 hours ago, houstonjambo said:

This has turned into a full on millennial shit fest.

 

Serena Williams broke the rules. Serena Williams was punished in line with the rules. Whether the first penalty was harsh or not, there is no excuse for her smashing her racquet or calling him a 'thief' and a 'liar'.

 

Somehow, it's now all turned into poor wee Serena, the oppressed black woman who has defeated the system at every turn. Look at her out there, bravely standing up to sexism by screaming at an umpire when she is in the wrong. Then everyone comes out backing her and she continues to play the victim after the match, despite her coach admitting to the first penalty!

 

Now it's all about how it wouldn't happen if a man behaved like that, despite the Kyrgios/Fognini/Shapalov penalties in line with the rules as well. As far as I can see, there is no direct comparison between Serena and any man (coaching/smashing racquet/insults) but there is previous of Ramos being incredibly harsh and erring on the strict side of the rules.

 

The whole circus that's been dragged out of this is ridiculous. She should be called out for what she is - a sore loser. Again, she has previous for this. She tries to portray herself as the downtrodden, despite being probably the best female tennis player of all time. She's the Celtic of female tennis.

 

 

Breaks the rules multiple times because she can’t accept losing and then has the audacity to try and turn it into a case of her being the victim. Williams is seen screaming for an apology, when in fact she should be the one apologising to Osaka for ruining what should have been one of the biggest days in her career. 

[DETTY29]

Not sure who the lady was on 5Live last night on Drive was but the best she could come up with was McEnroe from 30 to 40 years ago and at the end of the discussion more or less said it was a sexist over-reaction* 'because'

 

The previous few minutes, admittedly from the male tennis correspondent - can't remember if Fuller or Overend -provided examples of the umpire's hard line status towards males too.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by DETTY29

[JimKongUno]

She spat the Dummy because she was getting her big arse handed to her .

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

22 hours ago, jonnothejambo said:

 

Doubt they will ban the bloated boot. 

 

She deserves one though. Everything is always about her and she will be gutted she couldn't play the race card. 

 

Sooner she buggers off the better.

 

Give her and her supporters time Jonno! And, as if on cue! JK Mouthpiece! 

 

 

✔

 

 

Well done on reducing one of the greatest sportswomen alive to racist and sexist tropes and turning a second great sportswoman into a faceless prop. https://twitter.com/Knightcartoons/status/1039017329030393856 …

1:54 PM - Sep 10, 2018

•  
•  

 

 

[Bindy Badgy]

To be fair to Rowling the cartoon she was responding to is pretty dodgy

 

[John Findlay]

5 minutes ago, Stokesy said:

To be fair to Rowling the cartoon she was responding to is pretty dodgy

 

That's mild compared to many a cartoon.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

7 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

That's mild compared to many a cartoon.

 

Yes, but she wasn't talking about many a cartoon, she was referring to that one. 

[Bindy Badgy]

The general point about Williams' childish behaviour is fair but there's no need to include the racial stereotypes with regards to lip size. Particularly, when you consider that these features have been used to mock black people for hundreds of years.

[I P Knightley]

33 minutes ago, Stokesy said:

To be fair to Rowling the cartoon she was responding to is pretty dodgy

 

Apart from the lips, that looks just like her!

 

I get JK's claim on racism to do with that drawing but "sexist"?? Deary me.

 

This, though, is more deflection. The cartoon may or may not be racist and/or sexist but it doesn't mean that the umpire is either.

[John Findlay]

29 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

Yes, but she wasn't talking about many a cartoon, she was referring to that one. 

Then she needs to widen her horizons. 

[John Findlay]

15 minutes ago, Stokesy said:

The general point about Williams' childish behaviour is fair but there's no need to include the racial stereotypes with regards to lip size. Particularly, when you consider that these features have been used to mock black people for hundreds of years.

Didn't realise Mick Jagger is black.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

49 minutes ago, Stokesy said:

To be fair to Rowling the cartoon she was responding to is pretty dodgy

 

 

I can see why the lips might offend people but are folk seriously saying that a multi-millionaire celebrity with one of the biggest profiles tennis has ever seen should be immune from satire or ridicule? She needs knocked off her perch and no mistake

[John Findlay]

5 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

I can see why the lips might offend people but are folk seriously saying that a multi-millionaire celebrity with one of the biggest profiles tennis has ever seen should be immune from satire or ridicule? She needs knocked off her perch and no mistake

I'll go further. Williams and her sycophants are indulging in bullying in my eyes. Agree with me/us or im/we are calling you sexit, racist etc. To me that is a form of bullying.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

7 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I'll go further. Williams and her sycophants are indulging in bullying in my eyes. Agree with me/us or im/we are calling you sexit, racist etc. To me that is a form of bullying.

 

Her treatment of the umpire was blatant bullying. She’s a disgrace.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

And let’s get it right - she’ll be less bothered about the caricature than the fact that someone is calling her out as a spoilt brat

[John Findlay]

25 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

Her treatment of the umpire was blatant bullying. She’s a disgrace.

Absolutely and her opponent but neither were prepared to be bullied. She has thrown everything out the pram AS SHE DIDN'T GET HER OWN WAY.