Orange marches this Saturday

[Therapist]

That time of year to dig out your old Double Album...............or have you transfeerd it to cd now:p

 

 

Shut it.

 

Anyway, it's your double album. Fact.

[S.N.T.H.]

I find that hard to believe.

 

I presume he is for Scotland winning Independence? If so, how does he work with the Orange Lodge's staunch unionist views?

 

(Not having a dig or calling you liar, generally interested).

 

To be fair, The Orange Lodge's 'staunch' Unionist views (is staunch unionist an oxymoron?) are very much tailored to the situation in Northern Ireland, as opposed to being a platform for Scottish Independence.

 

Toggie, i know you're a deeply religious, and politically driven individual, but why do you see fit to jump onto every thread of that nature and twist it to your Nationalist agenda?

 

For the record, i will be proudly at the march.

[MacDonald Jardine]

I find that hard to believe.

 

I presume he is for Scotland winning Independence? If so, how does he work with the Orange Lodge's staunch unionist views?

 

(Not having a dig or calling you liar, generally interested).

 

An independent Scotland in the commonwealth with the Queen as head of state would not be at all incompatible.

[davemclaren]

To be fair, The Orange Lodge's 'staunch' Unionist views (is staunch unionist an oxymoron?) are very much tailored to the situation in Northern Ireland, as opposed to being a platform for Scottish Independence.

 

Toggie, i know you're a deeply religious, and politically driven individual, but why do you see fit to jump onto every thread of that nature and twist it to your Nationalist agenda?

 

For the record, i will be proudly at the march.

 

It's a bit odd they are staunch Unionist over Northern Ireland but not Scotland. Even I feel a bit let down by that.

[MacDonald Jardine]

It's a bit odd they are staunch Unionist over Northern Ireland but not Scotland. Even I feel a bit let down by that.

 

As you doubtless well know they are different situations.

At least until relatively recently any alternative to the union would have been a united Ireland.

I doubt there would be too many problems if an Orangeman supported an independent Ulster. (Cue some smartarse saying I've used Ulster incorrectly.)

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

Are there any plans for a Vodafone march?

[davemclaren]

As you doubtless well know they are different situations.

At least until relatively recently any alternative to the union would have been a united Ireland.

I doubt there would be too many problems if an Orangeman supported an independent Ulster. (Cue some smartarse saying I've used Ulster incorrectly.)

 

That would infer that they are driven more by a dislike of Eire than a like for the UK. I find that hard to believe.

[MacDonald Jardine]

That would infer that they are driven more by a dislike of Eire than a like for the UK. I find that hard to believe.

 

 

Really?

[Eckauskas]

Really?

 

Do you have a basis for your silly and rather insane conclusions?

[MacDonald Jardine]

Do you have a basis for your silly and rather insane conclusions?

 

Eh?

[Patrick Bateman]

I think we should be able to burn crosses and hang nooses outside the houses of immigrants. After all, I'm only defending a tradition and anyone who tells me that its wrong is simply a PC Hand-wringer who wants to dismantle British civil liberties.

[MacDonald Jardine]

I think we should be able to burn crosses and hang nooses outside the houses of immigrants. After all, I'm only defending a tradition and anyone who tells me that its wrong is simply a PC Hand-wringer who wants to dismantle British civil liberties.

 

Do you really think that's a valid comparison?

[Patrick Bateman]

Do you really think that's a valid comparison?

 

There are similarities, yes. Notions of supremacy, superiority and the subsequent need to suppress other cultures. These marches only reinforce division and serve no real purpose other than to antagonise and inconvenience those who don't follow in their rather primitive beliefs.

[MacDonald Jardine]

There are similarities, yes. Notions of supremacy, superiority and the subsequent need to suppress other cultures. These marches only reinforce division and serve no real purpose other than to antagonise and inconvenience those who don't follow in their rather primitive beliefs.

 

Notions of supremacy, superiority: pretty much any commemoration of a military victory then.

 

the subsequent need to suppress other cultures: what cultures?

[Makween]

I don't see how anyone can honestly say that Orange Marches are out of order, but marches commemorating Bannockburn are okay. That's just a totally bizarre opinion.

[Patrick Bateman]

Notions of supremacy, superiority: pretty much any commemoration of a military victory then.

 

the subsequent need to suppress other cultures: what cultures?

 

Commemoration of a military victory fought 300-odd years ago in another country. The petty, religious (and cultural) element is a primary reason for this event continually being celebrated. Ultimately, its just an excuse for one set of knuckle-draggers to boast about how great it is to be a "Prod" without really understanding how grotesque they appear to normal human beings.

[Patrick Bateman]

I don't see how anyone can honestly say that Orange Marches are out of order, but marches commemorating Bannockburn are okay. That's just a totally bizarre opinion.

 

I'd say both are completely pointless. I find the notion of marching in commemoration of historical events is fairly bizarre in any case. Nothing says "Lets remember" than people in stupid dress moving from one area of a town to another.

[Eckauskas]

I'd say both are completely pointless. I find the notion of marching in commemoration of historical events is fairly bizarre in any case. Nothing says "Lets remember" than people in stupid dress moving from one area of a town to another.

 

Although not a march, whats your stance on the memorial at Haymark every Rememberance Sunday? I take it you're opposed to that too?

[Patrick Bateman]

Although not a march, whats your stance on the memorial at Haymark every Rememberance Sunday? I take it you're opposed to that too?

 

Remembering people who have died is one thing. Glorifying past battles as a means of reinforcing a particular *struggle* or ideology is quite another. I'd point anyone towards Pericles Funeral Oration from Thyucidides' History of the Peloponnesian War for a reference point. There is a line between respecting the dead and using them for propaganda. The OO, and a few other organisations, in my mind, are guilty of the latter.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Remembering people who have died is one thing. Glorifying past battles as a means of reinforcing a particular *struggle* or ideology is quite another. I'd point anyone towards Pericles Funeral Oration from Thyucidides' History of the Peloponnesian War for a reference point. There is a line between respecting the dead and using them for propaganda. The OO, and a few other organisations, in my mind, are guilty of the latter.

 

I suspect you've brought this thread to a shuddering halt

[DikT.]

To me the difference between marching to Bannockburn and an orange walk are pretty obvious. First of all the march to Bannockburn is to where the battle was held!!!! Doh, if the LOL want to march to commemorate the boyne, let them march to there, preferably from Stirling, without the use of ferries. Secondly, Bannockburn is a celebration of a country, a whole country, Scotland, not some bigots celebrating a religion they would be hard pushed to spell. When was the last time any of them set foot in a church to clebrate their religion?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

To me the difference between marching to Bannockburn and an orange walk are pretty obvious. First of all the march to Bannockburn is to where the battle was held!!!! Doh, if the LOL want to march to commemorate the boyne, let them march to there, preferably from Stirling, without the use of ferries. Secondly, Bannockburn is a celebration of a country, a whole country, Scotland, not some bigots celebrating a religion they would be hard pushed to spell. When was the last time any of them set foot in a church to clebrate their religion?

 

The idea of marching in commemoration of Bannockburn is laughable, but that sentence made me chuckle

[MacDonald Jardine]

To me the difference between marching to Bannockburn and an orange walk are pretty obvious. First of all the march to Bannockburn is to where the battle was held!!!! Doh, if the LOL want to march to commemorate the boyne, let them march to there, preferably from Stirling, without the use of ferries. Secondly, Bannockburn is a celebration of a country, a whole country, Scotland, not some bigots celebrating a religion they would be hard pushed to spell. When was the last time any of them set foot in a church to clebrate their religion?

 

Not the only ones that find speliing hard eh?

 

have you conducted a survey about Orangemen's attendance at church?

[DikT.]

Not the only ones that find speliing hard eh?

 

have you conducted a survey about Orangemen's attendance at church?

 

Pedant alert!!!!! Jeez, I think there is a big difference between bad spelling and typing away and missing an E. Perhaps you should look at the spelling of the word spelling, numpty. Don't get me started on grammar where you have not even started a sentence with a capital. Pretty damn pathetic IMO.

 

I know how many people go to church on a Sunday where I stay because I go. Not many of them are members of the Orange Order. However I unfortunatley do know many many members of the Orange Order who I do not see in church. They do appear on Remembrance Sunday though to lay a wreath.

[Eckauskas]

To me the difference between marching to Bannockburn and an orange walk are pretty obvious. First of all the march to Bannockburn is to where the battle was held!!!! Doh, if the LOL want to march to commemorate the boyne, let them march to there, preferably from Stirling, without the use of ferries. Secondly, Bannockburn is a celebration of a country, a whole country, Scotland, not some bigots celebrating a religion they would be hard pushed to spell. When was the last time any of them set foot in a church to clebrate their religion?

 

Absolutely laughable.

 

If you want to ban one march in memory of a historical battle, then Bannockburn surely falls into the same category.

[DikT.]

Absolutely laughable.

 

If you want to ban one march in memory of a historical battle, then Bannockburn surely falls into the same category.

 

 

And my goodness what a laugh it is indeedy doo.

 

Maybe laughable to you Big Eck, but as I said in the previous post, let them march by all means, to the place of the battle, preferably over water, not hundreds of miles away.

[tynie1874]

8:30 this saturday

leith academy st

orange walk

be there or be square.

[Deek]

Which kickbacker is this most like?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgDGFmfJ3f4

[Makween]

To me the difference between marching to Bannockburn and an orange walk are pretty obvious. First of all the march to Bannockburn is to where the battle was held!!!! Doh, if the LOL want to march to commemorate the boyne, let them march to there, preferably from Stirling, without the use of ferries. Secondly, Bannockburn is a celebration of a country, a whole country, Scotland, not some bigots celebrating a religion they would be hard pushed to spell. When was the last time any of them set foot in a church to clebrate their religion?

 

What a totally ridiculous, contradiction-riddled post.

[Acey]

Anyone who goes on/supports/watches Orange marches is a scuzzy ned, who should be drowned.

 

Fact. End of. Nuff said.

[Patrick Bateman]

8:30 this saturday

leith academy st

orange walk

be there or be square.

 

 

Or how about "Be there and be a knuckle-dragging degenerate"?

 

I bet you're a 16/17 year old with a low level of intelligence and education and absolutely no understanding of history or politics. But don't let that bother you, I'm sure you'll enjoy all the bright colours and flute "choons" like the rest of your special friends.

 

[Drew Busby !]

To me the difference between marching to Bannockburn and an orange walk are pretty obvious. First of all the march to Bannockburn is to where the battle was held!!!! Doh, if the LOL want to march to commemorate the boyne, let them march to there, preferably from Stirling, without the use of ferries. Secondly, Bannockburn is a celebration of a country, a whole country, Scotland, not some bigots celebrating a religion they would be hard pushed to spell. When was the last time any of them set foot in a church to clebrate their religion?

 

I echo the sentiments.

 

Bannockburn - even after 7 centuries - is about one nation striving to achieve freedom from another. Bannockburn marchers however do not get buses down to London and demand to march along Whitehall to rub Englands noses in it.

 

The political and religous significance of an Orange March, is very much though about civil division rather than national unity. Orange lodge marchers are making a point that state-protestantism won the day over the previous catholic order. Its a "reminder" from those who give a feck (mainly bigots) and it's a blatant piece of intimidation dressed up as a musical parade. Anyone who says that this is NOT part of the agenda of an Orange march is being completely disingenuous. The Orange heartlands in Ulster and the West of Scotland are fuelled more by bog-standard anti-catholicism than they are by any notion of principled protestantism. The latter would indeed involve some degree of religous devotion...the older generation of marchers may be church-goers to some degree, but the younger ones are mostly out to rub catholic noses in it by banging the drum.

[Eckauskas]

Anyone who goes on/supports/watches Orange marches is a scuzzy ned, who should be drowned.

 

Fact. End of. Nuff said.

 

Oh dear.

 

What an irrational, and fairly off the mark, stereotype.

 

Can't say I'd expected any different though.

[DikT.]

What a totally ridiculous, contradiction-riddled post.

 

Please explain where I am contradicting myself and also what is ridiculous. Others seem to share the same sentiments.

 

I echo the sentiments.

 

Bannockburn - even after 7 centuries - is about one nation striving to achieve freedom from another. Bannockburn marchers however do not get buses down to London and demand to march along Whitehall to rub Englands noses in it.

 

The political and religous significance of an Orange March, is very much though about civil division rather than national unity. Orange lodge marchers are making a point that state-protestantism won the day over the previous catholic order. Its a "reminder" from those who give a feck (mainly bigots) and it's a blatant piece of intimidation dressed up as a musical parade. Anyone who says that this is NOT part of the agenda of an Orange march is being completely disingenuous. The Orange heartlands in Ulster and the West of Scotland are fuelled more by bog-standard anti-catholicism than they are by any notion of principled protestantism. The latter would indeed involve some degree of religous devotion...the older generation of marchers may be church-goers to some degree, but the younger ones are mostly out to rub catholic noses in it by banging the drum.

 

Thank you Mr Busby, much more succintly put than I did.

[Stefan Pie]

Anyone who goes on/supports/watches Orange marches is a scuzzy ned, who should be drowned.

 

Fact. End of. Nuff said.

 

drop me a pm when you fancy drowning me, you pick your spot

 

is there a burn or river up Bughtlinrig

[Makween]

Please explain where I am contradicting myself and also what is ridiculous. Others seem to share the same sentiments.

 

Wow, well if other people agree with you then you must be right, mustn't you?

 

Okay, I'll point out a few contradictions :

 

To me the difference between marching to Bannockburn and an orange walk are pretty obvious. First of all the march to Bannockburn is to where the battle was held!!!! Doh, if the LOL want to march to commemorate the boyne, let them march to there, preferably from Stirling, without the use of ferries. Secondly, Bannockburn is a celebration of a country, a whole country, Scotland, not some bigots celebrating a religion they would be hard pushed to spell. When was the last time any of them set foot in a church to clebrate their religion?

 

First of all, although this one hardly exactly only applies to you - in fact, it applies to most posters on this thread - you're labelling an entire section of society as bigots - without, I'm sure, taking the time to understand or even try to understand their full ideology. If you can't see the inherent irony in that, then I'm not sure that I or indeed anyone else would be able to point it out to you.

 

Following on from that, you've got this bizarre conviction that you're the sole arbiter of what is and isn't a valid cultural celebration. In what way is your nationalism any more valid than celebration of Orange (note that I said "Orange", not "Protestant) culture? Accusing the entire Orange Lodge of being anti-Catholic bigots is like accusing the entire SNP of being anti-English bigots - petty and childish.

 

Marches in general aren't really my cup of tea. The sheer hypocrisy on this thread, though, is unbelievable.

[Drew Busby !]

Wow, well if other people agree with you then you must be right, mustn't you?

 

Okay, I'll point out a few contradictions :

 

First of all, although this one hardly exactly only applies to you - in fact, it applies to most posters on this thread - you're labelling an entire section of society as bigots - without, I'm sure, taking the time to understand or even try to understand their full ideology. If you can't see the inherent irony in that, then I'm not sure that I or indeed anyone else would be able to point it out to you.

 

Following on from that, you've got this bizarre conviction that you're the sole arbiter of what is and isn't a valid cultural celebration. In what way is your nationalism any more valid than celebration of Orange (note that I said "Orange", not "Protestant) culture? Accusing the entire Orange Lodge of being anti-Catholic bigots is like accusing the entire SNP of being anti-English bigots - petty and childish.

 

Marches in general aren't really my cup of tea. The sheer hypocrisy on this thread, though, is unbelievable.

 

There is a hugely significant difference in the respective outlooks of these groups.

 

The Bannockburn march will of course in the main be attended by Scottish nationalists. Many card-carrying Scot Nats are English born and have moved here in recent times. At the last count, some 7 Scot Nat MSP's were born in England. Dozens of Scot Nat councillors are either of English or Asian origin initially and thats a reflection of the SNP membership as a whole. More generally it's a reflection of our wider attitude to "being Scottish". You don't have to be born here. You dont have to be called MacDonald or Fraser. You just have to live or work here and thats enough. You're considered to be Scottish and it's this natural inclusiveness that makes this country what it is. The more English, Asians and Poles who want to live and work and contribute here, the better I like it. We're already a mongrel race of Celts, Saxons, Vikings, Picts and the rest ... and everyone knows that mongrels are smarter than so called pedigrees :-) It's about social inclusion.

 

The Orange Order does of course have the "right" to maintain and parade it's own enclosed and insular view of the world. But how inclusive is it ? Does it contain any catholic members ? Does it contain any asian members ? No ??? Of course not, these are just rhetorical questions... It's a strictly "protestant only" group and by it's very nature, the complete antithesis of what a modern inclusive society is all about..and therefore the complete antithesis of what Scotland is - or at least should be - about.

For the record I decry catholic schooling for the very same reason. Orange order, catholic schooling... It's about social division.

 

Inclusion and unity ... over exclusion and division... it's a no-brainer.

[Acey]

drop me a pm when you fancy drowning me, you pick your spot

 

is there a burn or river up Bughtlinrig

 

Yep - that's where "Fauldburn" gets its name from.

 

I don't live there, though.

[jamboq]

There is a hugely significant difference in the respective outlooks of these groups.

 

The Bannockburn march will of course in the main be attended by Scottish nationalists. Many card-carrying Scot Nats are English born and have moved here in recent times. At the last count, some 7 Scot Nat MSP's were born in England. Dozens of Scot Nat councillors are either of English or Asian origin initially and thats a reflection of the SNP membership as a whole. More generally it's a reflection of our wider attitude to "being Scottish". You don't have to be born here. You dont have to be called MacDonald or Fraser. You just have to live or work here and thats enough. You're considered to be Scottish and it's this natural inclusiveness that makes this country what it is. The more English, Asians and Poles who want to live and work and contribute here, the better I like it. We're already a mongrel race of Celts, Saxons, Vikings, Picts and the rest ... and everyone knows that mongrels are smarter than so called pedigrees :-) It's about social inclusion.

 

The Orange Order does of course have the "right" to maintain and parade it's own enclosed and insular view of the world. But how inclusive is it ? Does it contain any catholic members ? Does it contain any asian members ? No ??? Of course not, these are just rhetorical questions... It's a strictly "protestant only" group and by it's very nature, the complete antithesis of what a modern inclusive society is all about..and therefore the complete antithesis of what Scotland is - or at least should be - about.

For the record I decry catholic schooling for the very same reason. Orange order, catholic schooling... It's about social division.

 

Inclusion and unity ... over exclusion and division... it's a no-brainer.

 

Do the SNP have any Unionists?

 

The Orange order may be Protestant only, however that includes people from High Anglicans to Presbyterians, to Methodists etc. etc. There are African lodges and even a Mohawk Indian lodge. Indeed the OO refused to grant permission to lodges in South Africa because of Racism - well before it was "right on" to be P.C.

 

You say Modern Scotland be about “inclusiveness”. However what if the "inclusiveness" didn't fit your agenda/beliefs/opinions? What if "inclusiveness" meant you were barracked for your beliefs? You would stand up and speak against it. Thats all the LOL are doing.

 

Just look at this thread for example, people are advocating burning, glassing and drowning people because they don't fit into their view of "inclusive",“modern” Scotland.

[MacDonald Jardine]

There is a hugely significant difference in the respective outlooks of these groups.

 

The Bannockburn march will of course in the main be attended by Scottish nationalists. Many card-carrying Scot Nats are English born and have moved here in recent times. At the last count, some 7 Scot Nat MSP's were born in England. Dozens of Scot Nat councillors are either of English or Asian origin initially and thats a reflection of the SNP membership as a whole. More generally it's a reflection of our wider attitude to "being Scottish". You don't have to be born here. You dont have to be called MacDonald or Fraser. You just have to live or work here and thats enough. You're considered to be Scottish and it's this natural inclusiveness that makes this country what it is. The more English, Asians and Poles who want to live and work and contribute here, the better I like it. We're already a mongrel race of Celts, Saxons, Vikings, Picts and the rest ... and everyone knows that mongrels are smarter than so called pedigrees :-) It's about social inclusion.

 

The Orange Order does of course have the "right" to maintain and parade it's own enclosed and insular view of the world. But how inclusive is it ? Does it contain any catholic members ? Does it contain any asian members ? No ??? Of course not, these are just rhetorical questions... It's a strictly "protestant only" group and by it's very nature, the complete antithesis of what a modern inclusive society is all about..and therefore the complete antithesis of what Scotland is - or at least should be - about.

For the record I decry catholic schooling for the very same reason. Orange order, catholic schooling... It's about social division.

 

Inclusion and unity ... over exclusion and division... it's a no-brainer.

 

You mean like any other religious organisation?

It has no catholic members because it opposes the Roman Catholic church.

I don't know if there are asian members or not but assuming their religious beliefs are in accordance there is no colour bar as you seem to be implying.

[Drew Busby !]

You mean like any other religious organisation?

It has no catholic members because it opposes the Roman Catholic church.

I don't know if there are asian members or not but assuming their religious beliefs are in accordance there is no colour bar as you seem to be implying.

 

Indeed. The search is now on for a flute-playing asian protestant who believes in the ideology of the Orange Order and would be accepted into it.

[Drew Busby !]

Do the SNP have any Unionists?

 

The Orange order may be Protestant only, however that includes people from High Anglicans to Presbyterians, to Methodists etc. etc. There are African lodges and even a Mohawk Indian lodge. Indeed the OO refused to grant permission to lodges in South Africa because of Racism - well before it was "right on" to be P.C.

 

You say Modern Scotland be about ?inclusiveness?. However what if the "inclusiveness" didn't fit your agenda/beliefs/opinions? What if "inclusiveness" meant you were barracked for your beliefs? You would stand up and speak against it. Thats all the LOL are doing.

 

Just look at this thread for example, people are advocating burning, glassing and drowning people because they don't fit into their view of "inclusive",?modern? Scotland.

 

You have a point. IMO only improved, non-segregated education and mutual tolerance and understanding from cradle to grave will produce the fully enlightened society that Scotland could yet be. Action/re-action is not the answer.

[DikT.]

All far too intelligent for a dumb blonde to understand. All I know is what I believe and no matter what some of you defenders say, I see the orange order as being a totally outdated bigotted organisation with no place in Scottish society.

[Eckauskas]

There is a hugely significant difference in the respective outlooks of these groups.

 

The Bannockburn march will of course in the main be attended by Scottish nationalists. Many card-carrying Scot Nats are English born and have moved here in recent times. At the last count, some 7 Scot Nat MSP's were born in England. Dozens of Scot Nat councillors are either of English or Asian origin initially and thats a reflection of the SNP membership as a whole. More generally it's a reflection of our wider attitude to "being Scottish". You don't have to be born here. You dont have to be called MacDonald or Fraser. You just have to live or work here and thats enough. You're considered to be Scottish and it's this natural inclusiveness that makes this country what it is. The more English, Asians and Poles who want to live and work and contribute here, the better I like it. We're already a mongrel race of Celts, Saxons, Vikings, Picts and the rest ... and everyone knows that mongrels are smarter than so called pedigrees :-) It's about social inclusion.

 

The Orange Order does of course have the "right" to maintain and parade it's own enclosed and insular view of the world. But how inclusive is it ? Does it contain any catholic members ? Does it contain any asian members ? No ??? Of course not, these are just rhetorical questions... It's a strictly "protestant only" group and by it's very nature, the complete antithesis of what a modern inclusive society is all about..and therefore the complete antithesis of what Scotland is - or at least should be - about.

For the record I decry catholic schooling for the very same reason. Orange order, catholic schooling... It's about social division.

 

Inclusion and unity ... over exclusion and division... it's a no-brainer.

 

No, because it's a different religion.

 

Do you know any Catholics that go to Mosque?

[Stefan Pie]

Yep - that's where "Fauldburn" gets its name from.

 

I don't live there, though.

 

Don't know the area too well.

 

I wasn't aware you had moved, sorry.

[ian039]

Anyone who goes on/supports/watches Orange marches is a scuzzy ned, who should be drowned.

 

Fact. End of. Nuff said.

 

just watched the tranent one leave for the big walk this afternoon

 

fecking brilliant to watch them

 

:):):)

[vegas-voss]

Already went booming past my village at 7.40 this morning

[kinross jambo]

Or how about "Be there and be a knuckle-dragging degenerate"?

 

I bet you're a 16/17 year old with a low level of intelligence and education and absolutely no understanding of history or politics. But don't let that bother you, I'm sure you'll enjoy all the bright colours and flute "choons" like the rest of your special friends.

 

 

hit the nail on the head with this post,sounds like every little "we are the people" bigot i have ever met.

[Jamblow]

Christmas and other Religous events are completely different. They celebrate a belief in a greater being - if you want to get pedantic; God is everwhere, so yes he is walking down Princes Street as we speak.

 

What was the cause William of Orange was fighting for?

 

I've no idea but I'll hazard a guess that it involved some kind of material gain. No such thing a free lunch is there.

[Ba Baracus]

I've no idea but I'll hazard a guess that it involved some kind of material gain. No such thing a free lunch is there.

 

no place in this country, what exactly are they achieving by marching ? holding up traffic and annoying everyone bar their thick relatives who watch.