Hearts fielded ineligible player against Cove Rangers

[frankblack]

Expulsion or points deduction amounts to the same thing - at the end of the day it means we won't qualify on 9pts at best.

 

It is a ****ing disgrace we can't have a decision before tomorrow to save people travelling.

[jimbojambo]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

You really think the club is badly run and going in the wrong direction though? That's a bit much. 

 

I know it's the fashion to react to everything with fits of screaming abdabs these days, and this is certainly unfortunate, but humans make mistakes - I've never worked in an office where mistakes didn't happen. Calls for some admin assistant to lose their job or have the punishment come out of their wages are way out of line, it's an honest mistake, it isn't the first this has happened, and it won't be the last either.  

 

I totally agree and don't want someone punished for an honest mistake maybe made in difficult circumstances at the time. Richard Branson never sacked anyone over the mistakes made launching Virgin cola as he said they would never make the same mistakes again and had learned from the experience which would make them more valuable employees in future.

[ford donald]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

Expulsion or points deduction amounts to the same thing - at the end of the day it means we won't qualify on 9pts at best.

 

It is a ****ing disgrace we can't have a decision before tomorrow to save people travelling.

 I think the club will know the decision,but will have to wait for the official confirmation,hopefully a fine only.

[Norm]

5 minutes ago, jimbojambo said:

 

I totally agree and don't want someone punished for an honest mistake maybe made in difficult circumstances at the time. Richard Branson never sacked anyone over the mistakes made launching Virgin cola as he said they would never make the same mistakes again and had learned from the experience which would make them more valuable employees in future.

Off topic a bit but I actually preferred Virgin Cola to Coke and Pepsi. 

[jimbojambo]

2 minutes ago, Normthebarman said:

Off topic a bit but I actually preferred Virgin Cola to Coke and Pepsi. 

The mistake that they made was in thinking Coke and Pepsi would sit back and let them take market share without putting pressure on wholesalers to freeze out Virgin. The fought dirty apparently

[Boof]

11 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

 

It is a ****ing disgrace we can't have a decision before tomorrow to save people travelling.

 

100% this.

 

It's preposterous that a meeting can't (or won't) be convened until after another round of fixtures.

[The Treasurer]

22 minutes ago, Alan Nisbet said:

Fairest all round would be £5000 fine to Hearts paid to Cove - Hearts get punished Cove get compensated and no one else benefits or suffers.

Since when did fairness come into it where Scottish football is concerned

[Victorian]

I'm now leaning towards the decision being one that will (would have) result in us still being in with a chance to qualify.     I doubt they would want a situation where we were effectively out with 2 matches to play.     We have television coverage to factor as well.  Why would Hearts take the games seriously if they are meaningless?      We could be in the same situation via bad results putting us out but it's not quite the same dynamic.

 

Points deduction.    Possibly a void result vs Cove and a 3-0 notional loss but the straight points deduction has much better credibility.

[Juanjo15]

1 hour ago, OmiyaHearts said:

Thanks for the input. Are saying only Hearts are penalised if Cove are awarded a win?

Who else is?Cove won’t qualify so it actually helps the other three in trying to get second spot. 

[Juanjo15]

30 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

 

They'd go 2nd in the group....I'd suggest that's no great for Raith or Beath. 

 

They will both beat Cove though.  Cove lose on Sat they are effectively out the comp regardless of the 3 points they might get in Monday. 

[The Treasurer]

1 minute ago, Boof said:

 

100% this.

 

It's preposterous that a meeting can't (or won't) be convened until after another round of fixtures.

As has been said, depending on results tomorrow, a decision could be made that punishes Hearts, but doesn't affect anyone else.

A win for Cove against Cowdenbeath would take away the easy option (awarding the points to Cove) as they would be in with a real chance of qualifying.

If Cove lose then awarding them the points would have very little effect on the outcome of the group.

[Bob Loblaw]

23 minutes ago, frankblack said:

Expulsion or points deduction amounts to the same thing - at the end of the day it means we won't qualify on 9pts at best.

 

It is a ****ing disgrace we can't have a decision before tomorrow to save people travelling.

Why would 9 points mean we don't qualify?  Every team bar 1 has qualified with 9 points previously.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Bob Loblaw

[Fubar_Stef]

This would never of happened when Cathro was in charge. 

[Tennant's 6's]

3 minutes ago, Bob Loblaw said:

Why would 9 points mean we don't qualify?  Every team bar 1 has qualified with 9 points previously.

It's an early test of the players metal.  Win the remaining 3 games,  boosting the goals for,  and keeping clean sheets.  

Should defo still qualify, then only 3 games to get to the Final. 

 

[DH1986]

It’s like nobody on here has ever made a mistake at work before.......

[Juanjo15]

25 minutes ago, frankblack said:

Expulsion or points deduction amounts to the same thing - at the end of the day it means we won't qualify on 9pts at best.

 

It is a ****ing disgrace we can't have a decision before tomorrow to save people travelling.

 

Out of curiosity, how won't we qualify on 9 points?

[Escobar PHM]

Just now, DH1986 said:

It’s like nobody on here has ever made a mistake at work before.......

Been covered already and no-one admitted to making a mistake that cost their company well in excess of £100k

[frankblack]

5 minutes ago, Juanjo15 said:

 

Out of curiosity, how won't we qualify on 9 points?

 

It happened last year I believe.

[JamboJen]

2 hours ago, Rudolf said:

What an absolute slaver you are.

The ignore function generally works wonders.

[So Make Some Noise..]

The punishment will be significantly underwhelming in my opinion. Winning comfortably when the kid came on, it's not a new player and is based on a very explainable admin error for someone who has developed through our youth squad. Very innocent and not likely to get half the remand as being discussed on here.

[JamboGraham]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

It happened last year I believe.

 

But that would require someone to have more than 9 points and better goal difference than us. In that case they go through (and we go out) on merit..

[wavydavy]

3 minutes ago, So Make Some Noise.. said:

The punishment will be significantly underwhelming in my opinion. Winning comfortably when the kid came on, it's not a new player and is based on a very explainable admin error for someone who has developed through our youth squad. Very innocent and not likely to get half the remand as being discussed on here.

 

Hope your theory is correct however remember it is Hearts we are talking about here not Rangers or Celtic.

Edited July 20, 2018 by wavydavy

[Gambo]

6 minutes ago, So Make Some Noise.. said:

The punishment will be significantly underwhelming in my opinion. Winning comfortably when the kid came on, it's not a new player and is based on a very explainable admin error for someone who has developed through our youth squad. Very innocent and not likely to get half the remand as being discussed on here.

I'm going(guessing) for a fine and slap on wrists.

[Juanjo15]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

It happened last year I believe.

 

It didn't at all.  I think it's impossible for 3 teams to get 9 points.

[luckydug]

19 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

As has been said, depending on results tomorrow, a decision could be made that punishes Hearts, but doesn't affect anyone else.

A win for Cove against Cowdenbeath would take away the easy option (awarding the points to Cove) as they would be in with a real chance of qualifying.

If Cove lose then awarding them the points would have very little effect on the outcome of the group.

It's not the right way to go about things waiting till after another round of fixtures have taken place.

Just make a decision now and then everyone knows where they stand in future.

The rule should be in place anyway there should be no need for all this debate.

[JamboGraham]

Once the dust settles on this (unless the SPFL create a new level of sanction not currently available to them) this mistake alone will not put us out of the league cup. The full house; a fine, losing 3 points and having a 3-0 result awarded still leaves everything in our own hands.

 

The fact that the last game is against Inverness means that we would go into that knowing exactly how many goals we need to win by, therefore still in our own hands.

 

If we lose or draw any remaining matches we will likely now go out of the cup which is probably fair enough if we haven't got enough in us to win these matches.

 

This mistake does mean it highly unlikely that we will be seeded should we go through which of course makes it harder to progress and could end up being the most damaging aspect of this sorry affair.

[Skacelsid]

To call it as a draw would be punishment enough for Hearts and compensation enough for Cove without disadvantaging the rest of the group too much. Just an idea, there is no 100% fair solution.

[luckydug]

11 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

It happened last year I believe.

To Peterhead but others qualified with the same points total.

I think you have to be very unlucky not to qualify with 9 points.

[Morgan]

24 minutes ago, Fubar_Stef said:

This would never of happened when Cathro was in charge. 

How’s that then?

[sadj]

Just now, Morgan said:

How’s that then?

Dont feed the troll mate , what ya thinking?

[heartsfc_fan]

26 minutes ago, Fubar_Stef said:

This would never of happened when Cathro was in charge. 

Aye. Cove would've beaten us anyway.

[Morgan]

1 minute ago, sadj said:

Dont feed the troll mate , what ya thinking?

I know  

[sadj]

Just now, Morgan said:

I know  

Absolutely unacceptable , i feel the punishment should be to lock yourself in the wine cellar until drink makes you realise your mistake......

[Morgan]

Just now, sadj said:

Absolutely unacceptable , i feel the punishment should be to lock yourself in the wine cellar until drink makes you realise your mistake......

Aye, ok then.

 

I can do that.  

[sadj]

1 minute ago, Morgan said:

Aye, ok then.

 

I can do that.  

Good and I hope the lesson will be learnt ?

[Morgan]

Just now, sadj said:

Good and I hope the lesson will be learnt ?

 

[Juanjo15]

13 minutes ago, Juanjo15 said:

 

It didn't at all.  I think it's impossible for 3 teams to get 9 points.

 

Didn't realise it's only the four best runners up that go through. Defeat ICT handsomely and we will win the group then. 

[Gambo]

41 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

As has been said, depending on results tomorrow, a decision could be made that punishes Hearts, but doesn't affect anyone else.

A win for Cove against Cowdenbeath would take away the easy option (awarding the points to Cove) as they would be in with a real chance of qualifying.

If Cove lose then awarding them the points would have very little effect on the outcome of the group.

A punishment can't be based on who the team is and what it would mean in that competition. 

 

It has to be team A failed to register a player they played in Competion X, the punishment is Y.

That way if it happens again they can administer the same punishment.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Gambo

[Escobar PHM]

4 minutes ago, Juanjo15 said:

 

Didn't realise it's only the four best runners up that go through. Defeat ICT handsomely and we will win the group then. 

We'll need to make up an 8 goal difference in the next 3 games probably. Do-able given the opposition. Starting tomorrow would be good.

We could also do without ICT thrashing Raith in midweek as that potentially takes the GD to double figures.

Lets see the weekend results and the punishment first though before getting the calculators out.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[Juanjo15]

Just now, Escobar PHM said:

We'll need to make up an 8 goal difference in the next 3 games probably. Do-able given the opposition. Starting tomorrow would be good.

 

Yep.  But remember pumping ICT 3,4-0 would make it a 6,8 goal swing.  Raith are gantin' I expect we pummel them tomorrow. 

[Escobar PHM]

3 minutes ago, Juanjo15 said:

 

Yep.  But remember pumping ICT 3,4-0 would make it a 6,8 goal swing.  Raith are gantin' I expect we pummel them tomorrow. 

Yes that's true, but ICT also have Raith at home in midweek so they'd have an incentive to rack the goals up too.

We ought to be able to take half a dozen off Cowdenbeath if we really need to also.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[londonjambo]

FWIW, I think it ought to make a significant difference that we have self-reported this. It demonstrates integrity and self-regulation which must be significant mitigating factors.

 

Hoping for a heavy fine but would not be surprised if we were given a points deduction 

 

GC

[Escobar PHM]

1 minute ago, londonjambo said:

FWIW, I think it ought to make a significant difference that we have self-reported this.

Have we  though ? Or have the SPFL told us they'd found it ?

[Juanjo15]

9 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

Yes that's true, but ICT also have Raith at home in midweek so they'd have an incentive to rack the goals up too.

We ought to be able to take half a dozen off Cowdenbeath if we really need to also.

 

Makes it a lot more competitive than it should have been which is possibly a good thing. 

[Ski Nae]

Just now, Juanjo15 said:

 

Makes it a lot more competitive than it should have been which is possibly a good thing. 

Therein lies the silver lining.

Attacking, high-scoring football or bust.

[JamboGraham]

2 minutes ago, Ski Nae said:

Therein lies the silver lining.

Attacking, high-scoring football or bust.

 

Yup...three straight knockout do or die matches coming up...and we need goals, goals, goals...

 

Might actually end up being quite fun...

[Hackney Hearts]

1 hour ago, Rudy T said:

 

They'd go 2nd in the group....I'd suggest that's no great for Raith or Beath. 

 

But if it was a Hearts win, Hearts would be 2nd. And probably harder to shift. All I was saying was that a 3-0 win to Cove would be preferable to a Hearts 2-1 win, for the other teams, as things stand.

[luckyBatistuta]

5 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Not guaranteed but on the basis that we would be expected to beat Cove in a replay  by more than one goal (reports and the stats suggest four or five would have been a better reflection of play on Wednesday) very likely.

And yes, I think it would be best for the others in the group (assuming Hearts are not thrown out) for Cove to be given a 3-0 win ... they would all be delighted to see by far the strongest team in the group (on paper at least) defeated by the weakest.

 

 

Some expected us to beat them handsomely the last time. On the basis of it being fair for all the others with Cove receiving a 3-0 win. Imagine this had happened on our last game of the group, or was to happen again on the last game with another club and the team who were awarded a 3-0 win went through because of it. All hypothetical, but if this was the punishment, then surely it would have to be the same if it was the same scenario and punishment. The team missing out would be livid. At the end of the day, whatever punishment we receive towards ourselves, it’s our own fault, nobody else, so we just have to suck it up and move forward. Not sure I’ve worded this all great, as I’m in a rush and shouldn’t really be on here right now 

[Hackney Hearts]

1 hour ago, Escobar PHM said:

Its irrelevant what the fans of other clubs would prefer or what the other clubs would prefer. One of the keys they (SPFL) will look at is that no other club in the competition could, even possibly, no matter how slim the chance, gain an advantage or be burdened with a disadvantage because of our conduct.

 

It probably should be, I agree - but there'll be a lot of factors influencing them, and I wouldn't be surprised if a quiet life (i.e. no  complaints from clubs other than Hearts) may come into the mix.

As you say, by Monday things may be a little clearer regarding the group permutations which may possibly help.

[Don Dan]

Going forward there should be a reasonably simple solution in this day and age. Here on JKB everyone can see the status of each  persons membership level. Further if your banned, suspended on restricted then that is obvious as well, at least to the user. A live data base of all registered players would be available and notification would be sent out when the players registration expires. Prior to every game the club or SFA official would upload the team sheet which then flag up any player not eligible to play that game. It’s really not rocket science and I suspect not that expensive to set up. Most people and businesses  these days have internet access which can be accessed from there mobile or tablet or access can be via the club internet. So imo there’s absolutely no excuse for this not to be implemented. Failing that each club can have their own data base however you’d need to rely on the inputs and updates being correct.