Hearts fielded ineligible player against Cove Rangers

[Rudolf]

5 minutes ago, Morgan said:

I think we know where you would buy a season ticket for.

I can't believe this roaster hasn't been emptied yet.

[8skacel8]

22 minutes ago, feedthefox said:

Looking at this in purely a football sense if we are to win the SLC then surely we need to be beating Raith, Cowdenbeath and Inverness so putting aside this registration farce nothing changes. 

 

Winning these 3 games wouldn't guarantee us being top of the group. If ICT beat Raith then they are on 9 points with a far better goal difference than us.

[colinmaroon]

3 minutes ago, Diego10 said:

I expect us to lose the points in truth.  I think it would be fairer to just deduct them from us and scratch the victory than award a 3-0 to Cove but if it's given as a 3-0 then we can't have many complaints.

 

I think this is also a somewhat unique case in that it involves a player who's always been ours and was previously registered with no issues.  Most ineligible players have been guys who would not have been able to play in any circumstance.  Just have  to wait and see what the punishment is.

 

 

That last point SHOULD come into play when making their decision but, we are Hearts not Sevco and, therefore, don't hold your breath.

[Morgan]

10 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Can you provide a link to where this wee nugget is in the rules please? Or is this just how you think it should be?

graygo?  Would you mind clearing your inbox please?  Thanks

[Morgan]

1 minute ago, Rudolf said:

I can't believe this roaster hasn't been emptied yet.

Aye, subtle as a kick in the nuts!

[Bull's-eye]

11 minutes ago, colinmaroon said:

 

 

I accept that an offence is an offence, by the letter of the law but, anyone who uses the word "cheat" either has an agenda or doesn't understand the English language.

 

It's cheaturz or gtf imo.

[robbo1874]

I reckon a fine and 3 points deducted. 

Not great but I think some are getting way too excited. Maybe even using it for their own agendas.

[Bellion]

23 minutes ago, el_jambo74 said:

 

The spirit of the ineligible player rule is surely to stop clubs playing players they haven't signed. We had signed Andy Irving. He wasn't a new player. He merely signed a contract extension which wasn't filed by an admin assistant. A major mess up I know, but hardly deception on the clubs part, and there was no sporting advantage gained. We played a signed player. The rule is open ended for a reason - it should judge on a case by case basis. We are clearly a different case to a club who plays a player they haven't even signed. Presumably all the contractual documents show a January signature on them. They'd be done through independent parties such as lawyers / agents so it's not like Hearts could have mocked these up yesterday. The players salary will be reflecting any changes for the past 6 months. Further proof that it's just an admin oversight. A fine is correct in this instance.

I actually think a fine would be a fair outcome. I just don't expect it. 

 

Most of the other cases are similarly petty. Albion Rovers didn't register a player from their youth team properly, Dundee United misunderstood the rules about players coming back from loan, and Spartans' case (SFA not SPFL, I know...)  involved a player they'd had for 10 years, but they just got the paperwork wrong. 

 

I think it would be easy enough to apply a bit of common sense and say that where a club can show that a player has been contracted to them for a while, a fine is punishment enough for what's basically bad admin. There should be different sanctions for cases where someone's joined a club 5 mins before KO and nobody's bothered to register them properly. But that doesn't seem to come into it.  

Edited July 20, 2018 by Bellion

[i8hibsh]

10 minutes ago, robbo1874 said:

I reckon a fine and 3 points deducted. 

Not great but I think some are getting way too excited. Maybe even using it for their own agendas.

 

 

Would not think any hearts fan would have anything but a positive agenda towards our club.  I can speak for myself saying I am getting increasingly concerned at the amount of times we are dropping the ball since Mrs Budge took over with regards to on field matters. I have no agenda towards her, I greatly admire and respect her but I am deeply concerned about us as a football team.  I don’t mean as a business, as a wholesome part of the community I mean as a raw footballing entity.  I say it and say it again but to me Mrs Budge focus is making us wholesome and not winners.  We are not the first club to make this mistake and we will certainly not be the last but I expect more from us.  Levein and Budge have been round many a block.  From lazy and completely unacceptable recruitment, ill thought out contracts, non-registering of players, Cathro, poor discipline – all of which cost us a great deal of money and obviously bring no success.

Edited July 20, 2018 by i8hibsh

[graygo]

13 minutes ago, Morgan said:

graygo?  Would you mind clearing your inbox please?  Thanks

 

Nut, not if you're going to shout at me.

 

Done

[Paolo]

5 hours ago, whyskey said:

my take on it is that there is three options.

1/ a straight fine.

2/ points deduction plus fine.

3/ thrown out of competition plus fine.

cove will not be given three points as this would be unfair to the other teams.

a can of worms could be opened here if the punishment is 2 or 3.

appeal using the old rangers [rip] as our appeal, they did not lose points for registering players improperly, slight differences with us but the principle is the same.

the point is does our board of directors have what it takes to go down that route.

It is a tough one. 

 

The only real sanction that does not benefit or penalise any side over the other, but penalises us, as the offender, is to kick us out, and play as a smaller league. 

 

I am not saying this is what should happen, or will happen, but if that is the objective, I do not see another way of doing it. 

[Escobar PHM]

1 hour ago, Deevers said:

 Still don't think it's in their interests to impose such a severe sanction on us so as to make our continued participation in the competition meaningless. I doubt that the Sponsors would be delighted with such an outcome.

You think they'll go down the 'big teams should be able to break the rules and not get the same punishment' route for us ?

I don't think the sponsors will give a toss about us being there as long as Celtic and Rangers are in it to the late stages, which is almost assured from the start.

[kila]

The more I think about it the more I think a big fine is the fair solution.

 

As others said, Irving has always been our player, was an admin error, we didn't intentionally try and cheat, we didn't gain sporting advantage etc. Unique case, and I imagine the SPFL will be keen to let it not impact the rest of the group.

 

We will see, Hearts certainly keep giving don't they.

[Escobar PHM]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

Not really

 

Cove , in the same competition, were only fined.

To expect that same Cove to receive a points "bonus"  would be daft

Cove's player did not take part in the game. Only sat on the bench.

[Big Slim Stylee]

21 minutes ago, el_jambo74 said:

 

The spirit of the ineligible player rule is surely to stop clubs playing players they haven't signed. We had signed Andy Irving. He wasn't a new player. He merely signed a contract extension which wasn't filed by an admin assistant. A major mess up I know, but hardly deception on the clubs part, and there was no sporting advantage gained. We played a signed player. The rule is open ended for a reason - it should judge on a case by case basis. We are clearly a different case to a club who plays a player they haven't even signed. Presumably all the contractual documents show a January signature on them. They'd be done through independent parties such as lawyers / agents so it's not like Hearts could have mocked these up yesterday. The players salary will be reflecting any changes for the past 6 months. Further proof that it's just an admin oversight. A fine is correct in this instance.

 

Thats a very valid point and something I’m sure the club will raise at the meeting. 

 

There is is no hard and fast rule, only plenty of precedent. There might be wiggle room to just levy a hefty fine.

[Paolo]

4 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Old Firm mentality that would have this place rioting if it happened. 

Correct.  Our size should have no bearing on the decision, just as it shouldn’t (but probably would), Rangers or Celtic, as we often point out. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 hours ago, Prof said:

The committee is still to meet to hear our case so we can only speculate. But given the make up of the SFA we will be thrown out the tournament. What's clear is the so called professional business like approach of the board is making a number of serious mistakes-massive overruns on timing and cost of new stand, another new pitch and now basic stuff like player legibility. Our club needs a chief executive that gets things done efficiently and accurately.

 

I'll take a wild guess and say you're a professor of verminology!

[Morgan]

10 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Nut, not if you're going to shout at me.

 

Done

 

Cheers.

[HMFC86]

Leveins comments on STV suggests he’s expecting a overturn off the result. There’s zero chance we will be kicked out the cup. Folk need to calm down a wee bit. 

 

Levein said: "It's an unfortunate situation and I don't think in all my time here or in football I've been involved in a situation like it.

"But they do happen, it was just an administrative error back in January. 

"With it being back in January, I think that's caused a problem, we have processes in place that are fairly robust and we've missed something in January and missed it again, which is highly unusual.

"It's unfortunate, the good thing is we will learn from it and make sure it doesn't happen again.

"We just have to accept whatever the punishment is and see if we can still qualify.

"It gives us a challenge and a common cause to rally together and try and get through to the next round."

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

In the first instance it is HMFC's fault. End of story. However I have to think in this day and age with the technology available why can the referees not be sent (pre-game) an up to date list of the registered players of both squads involved in the game. Thereby allowing him to check off the names on the team sheets and alert clubs if a name appears that shouldn't. 

[Berra than you]

3 minutes ago, HMFC86 said:

Leveins comments on STV suggests he’s expecting a overturn off the result. There’s zero chance we will be kicked out the cup. Folk need to calm down a wee bit. 

 

Levein said: "It's an unfortunate situation and I don't think in all my time here or in football I've been involved in a situation like it.

"But they do happen, it was just an administrative error back in January. 

"With it being back in January, I think that's caused a problem, we have processes in place that are fairly robust and we've missed something in January and missed it again, which is highly unusual.

"It's unfortunate, the good thing is we will learn from it and make sure it doesn't happen again.

"We just have to accept whatever the punishment is and see if we can still qualify.

"It gives us a challenge and a common cause to rally together and try and get through to the next round."

 

Just watched his hearts TV interview and he tried not to give away what sanction he thinks we will get. He mentioned different occasions whereby teams have just been fined, and others where there have been points deducted. Case of wait and see I suppose 

[Rudy T]

8 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Would not think any hearts fan would have anything but a positive agenda towards our club.  I can speak for myself saying I am getting increasingly concerned at the amount of times we are dropping the ball since Mrs Budge took over with regards to on field matters. I have no agenda towards her, I greatly admire and respect her but I am deeply concerned about us as a football team.  I don’t mean as a business, as a wholesome part of the community I mean as a raw footballing entity.  I say it and say it again but to me Mrs Budge focus is making us wholesome and not winners.  We are not the first club to make this mistake and we will certainly not be the last but I expect more from us.  Levein and Budge have been round many a block.  From lazy and completely unacceptable recruitment, ill thought out contracts, non-registering of players, Cathro, poor discipline – all of which cost us a great deal of money and obviously bring no success.

 

To me the back office and operations side of the business and the football side are seperate, but both have issues.

 

We have an owner who is ambitious in terms of creating something for the future...a legacy if you like. She's come from the corporate business world where she had a team of execs who in turn had a number of managers. When AB told them to do something it was done by experienced people. Here she is running at pace without the right resources in place to work at her pace and mistakes are creeping in. I suspect a lot of errors have been made but not had an impact such as this and the seats no being ordered. She needs the right people an infrastructure if she wants to go continue like this.

 

On the football side, Ann left that to football people and concentrated on the business side....it was all roses until Neilson left and that's when the cracks appeared. It's clear she stepped in and things changed. We're now hopefully getting that right.

 

However the overall operation of the club seems disjointed and she needs to review it and make sure the business side is supporting the football side which is the most important part of the business...if it's not then something far more serious is going to happen and have a real impact on the product on the pitch.

[OmiyaHearts]

The only thing they can do is to kick Hearts out the tourney. A win given to Cove penalises all other teams in the group, not just Hearts.

 

 

[Jambof3tornado]

1 hour ago, rudi must stay said:

 

Don't think that matters. We've admitted it, plenty clubs wouldn't IMO. It shows integrity

Admitted it after we got caught potentially though.

 

If nothing else it highlights an issue we didnt realise was there so on reflection a positive taken from an awkward situation.

 

Lose tomorrow and it wont matter anyway.

[Jambof3tornado]

1 minute ago, OmiyaHearts said:

The only thing they can do is to kick Hearts out the tourney. A win given to Cove penalises all other teams in the group, not just Hearts.

 

 

Away and dont talk shite.

[sairyinthat]

16 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

Cove's player did not take part in the game. Only sat on the bench.

These other cases that are being quoted are the circumstances identical to Hearts?Had their players been registered with the clubs concerned  Like ours is or not, if different then what.

[OmiyaHearts]

1 minute ago, Jambof3tornado said:

Away and dont talk shite.

Thanks for the input. Are saying only Hearts are penalised if Cove are awarded a win?

[Jambof3tornado]

I think the club may know whats coming already. We arent getting kicked out the competition but are likely to get the result reversed and a fine possibly suspended.

 

 

[Jambof3tornado]

2 minutes ago, OmiyaHearts said:

Thanks for the input. Are saying only Hearts are penalised if Cove are awarded a win?

You have to cut off somewhere with who is impacted by our error though.

[Elshin]

28 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Would not think any hearts fan would have anything but a positive agenda towards our club.  I can speak for myself saying I am getting increasingly concerned at the amount of times we are dropping the ball since Mrs Budge took over with regards to on field matters. I have no agenda towards her, I greatly admire and respect her but I am deeply concerned about us as a football team.  I don’t mean as a business, as a wholesome part of the community I mean as a raw footballing entity.  I say it and say it again but to me Mrs Budge focus is making us wholesome and not winners.  We are not the first club to make this mistake and we will certainly not be the last but I expect more from us.  Levein and Budge have been round many a block.  From lazy and completely unacceptable recruitment, ill thought out contracts, non-registering of players, Cathro, poor discipline – all of which cost us a great deal of money and obviously bring no success.

I know its maybe going off topic a bit... but i completly agree with you.

 

The positive is though, we are building very long term, stand, pitch, academy.  The main thing the FOH have to do is ensure we elect the right people to take us to the next level once the foundation of the club is complete.

 

If we go out of the cup due to 9points not being enough (if we even hit 9poi ts) then it would be another embaressemnt in this competition.  

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

FFS. Cracking start.

[OmiyaHearts]

Just now, Jambof3tornado said:

You have to cut off somewhere with who is impacted by our error though.

I'm hoping for a fine only but I can't see the authorities letting us off that lightly. Maybe they'll deduct our three points and leave it at that?

[Haken]

1 hour ago, Oliver Twist said:

Anybody's heid blown off yet ?

Have just read through the latest few pages and thought, well at least no one's over-reacting.

 

[Jambof3tornado]

Just now, OmiyaHearts said:

I'm hoping for a fine only but I can't see the authorities letting us off that lightly. Maybe they'll deduct our three points and leave it at that?

Deduct them without giving cove the result? I think a replay is more likely.

 

Interesting monday ahead!

 

Really need to hammer Raith to ensure we get points and goals on the board.

[sadj]

1 hour ago, Prof said:

Precedent is either three points loss or kicked out of tournament. And some people here think it wont affect season ticket sales! For those youngsters keen to watch live football and are egging their parents to get season tickets . Who would hey pick to buy a season for?. A team doing well or another that simply cannot get the easy things right.

Your almost the same as as my dad and for that reason if your a Hearts fan you’ve probably been going to Tynecastle for 60 years aswell so I have the utmost respect for that. However , precedent is not as you say see Bellions posts or several others who are posting other instances such as a replay of the game. There is no set precedent. Your point about season tickets is imo not relevant. I will leave my comments at that out of respect for you.

[Morgan]

36 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Nut, not if you're going to shout at me.

 

Done

Your inbox is still not receiving messages.

[Don Dan]

Right, we should run a sweep stake or a poll on what the punishment will be. Bottom line no one really has a clue despite some educated guesses. Remember this is Scottish football run by idiots with a penchant for the bigot twins and Petrie having more than enough clout to see us suffer. 

 

[scott herbertson]

Just now, Dannie Boy said:

Right, we should run a sweep stake or a poll on what the punishment will be. Bottom line no one really has a clue despite some educated guesses. Remember this is Scottish football run by idiots with a penchant for the bigot twins and Petrie having more than enough clout to see us suffer. 

 

 

 

Should have had this as a sticky after the first informative post...

[Gambo]

29 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

In the first instance it is HMFC's fault. End of story. However I have to think in this day and age with the technology available why can the referees not be sent (pre-game) an up to date list of the registered players of both squads involved in the game. Thereby allowing him to check off the names on the team sheets and alert clubs if a name appears that shouldn't. 

Sounds so simple.

[Hackney Hearts]

17 minutes ago, OmiyaHearts said:

A win given to Cove penalises all other teams in the group, not just Hearts

 

This has been covered at length over the last 20 pages, but if I were one of the other teams in the group, I'd be delighted with a 3-0 win for Cove. Hearts are obviously the biggest obstacle to anyone else qualifying from the group - Cove not so much. Can't see how Raith, Cowdenbeath or ICT would feel penalised by such an outcome.

[wavydavy]

1 hour ago, graygo said:

 

Can you provide a link to where this wee nugget is in the rules please? Or is this just how you think it should be?

 

This is the section relating to the Cup game we broke the rules in which then refers to section J of the main rules.

 

8.4 It is the responsibility of each Club and club participating in the Competition to ensure that its Players are eligible to Play in any Match.

8.5 Trialists are not eligible to Play in the Competition.

8.6 Any Club or club in breach of or failing to fulfil these Regulations, including any club which is a member of a Recognised League and which participates in the Competition and thereby agrees to be bound by these Regulations and the Rules in so far as relating to and applying to this Competition, shall be liable to be dealt with and sanctioned in accordance with the terms of Section J of the Rules.

 

Section J is basically allowing them to impose anything they want.

 

If you can be bothered read from page 92 onwards.  If you have trouble sleeping then it would make good bedtime reading.

 

 

https://spfl.co.uk/docs/067_324__rulesofthespflasat19_january_2018_1518083042.pdf

[Escobar PHM]

8 minutes ago, Hackney Hearts said:

 

This has been covered at length over the last 20 pages, but if I were one of the other teams in the group, I'd be delighted with a 3-0 win for Cove. Hearts are obviously the biggest obstacle to anyone else qualifying from the group - Cove not so much. Can't see how Raith, Cowdenbeath or ICT would feel penalised by such an outcome.

There is a scenario, an unlikely one, that exists where Raith, Cowdenbeath and/or ICT could be disadvantaged by Cove getting 3 points, they didn't earn on the pitch, through a default result.

 

The scenario will most likely not be possible after the games on Saturday.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[Taffin]

1 hour ago, colinmaroon said:

 

 

I accept that an offence is an offence, by the letter of the law but, anyone who uses the word "cheat" either has an agenda or doesn't understand the English language.

 

 

We've been over this. I was the only one who used it and held my hands up and explained why I had used it. Not like you to cling onto a little nuggest and bore people to death ad finitum...

[Hackney Hearts]

5 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

There is a scenario, an unlikely one

 

Yes I'm sure it's possible to make one up. At this stage though, you have to ask yourself - as a fan of one of the other clubs, would you prefer a 2-1 Hearts win, or a 3-0 Cove win. I'm sure the answer would be unanimous. Which means they're not going to kick up a fuss if the authorities decide on the 3-0 Cove option.

[OmiyaHearts]

19 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

Right, we should run a sweep stake or a poll on what the punishment will be. Bottom line no one really has a clue despite some educated guesses. Remember this is Scottish football run by idiots with a penchant for the bigot twins and Petrie having more than enough clout to see us suffer. 

 

I don't think Petrie will have an influence as its not an SFA matter. It's difficult situation though - I'm not sure what the appropriate outcome should be.

[Rudy T]

18 minutes ago, Hackney Hearts said:

 

This has been covered at length over the last 20 pages, but if I were one of the other teams in the group, I'd be delighted with a 3-0 win for Cove. Hearts are obviously the biggest obstacle to anyone else qualifying from the group - Cove not so much. Can't see how Raith, Cowdenbeath or ICT would feel penalised by such an outcome.

 

They'd go 2nd in the group....I'd suggest that's no great for Raith or Beath. 

[Escobar PHM]

9 minutes ago, Hackney Hearts said:

 

Yes I'm sure it's possible to make one up. At this stage though, you have to ask yourself - as a fan of one of the other clubs, would you prefer a 2-1 Hearts win, or a 3-0 Cove win. I'm sure the answer would be unanimous. Which means they're not going to kick up a fuss if the authorities decide on the 3-0 Cove option.

Its irrelevant what the fans of other clubs would prefer or what the other clubs would prefer. One of the keys they (SPFL) will look at is that no other club in the competition could, even possibly, no matter how slim the chance, gain an advantage or be burdened with a disadvantage because of our conduct. On Monday, the possibilities that clubs could be disadvantaged or advantaged by a result reversal in the Cove v Hearts game will probably be non existent. Perhaps that's why they are waiting till Monday.

 

As it stands right at this moment, if Cove were given a 3-0 win , they could (mathematically) win the group and eliminate ICT, Raith, AND Cowdenbeath from the tournament in the process. All on the back of the error we made. That scenario, whilst unlikely I admit, exists and would be grossly unfair.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[TheBigO]

47 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

In the first instance it is HMFC's fault. End of story. However I have to think in this day and age with the technology available why can the referees not be sent (pre-game) an up to date list of the registered players of both squads involved in the game. Thereby allowing him to check off the names on the team sheets and alert clubs if a name appears that shouldn't. 

I had thought similar. Surely easy bit of housekeeping which maybe the 4th official can check off before each game?

 

Would seem worthwhile as this sort of scenario does come up reasonably regularly.

[Alan Nisbet]

Fairest all round would be £5000 fine to Hearts paid to Cove - Hearts get punished Cove get compensated and no one else benefits or suffers.

[Dirty Deeds]

6 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

I had thought similar. Surely easy bit of housekeeping which maybe the 4th official can check off before each game?

 

Would seem worthwhile as this sort of scenario does come up reasonably regularly.

Or the club secretary does the check before the manager confirms the squad.