What has happened to Kickback?

[Chris Benoit]

1 hour ago, gorgie rd eh11 said:

 

 There's not a more self critical football fans board anywhere. Everyday there is a barrage of threads criticising every corner of the club. To claim otherwise is laughable.

 

 

I beg to differ 

 

[cuddledoon]

18 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Kickback is a forum and doesn't need to ensure balance, just to let people air their opinions within the rules. 

You can't really accuse a particular 'side' of bullying or shouting over the other because there are individuals on both 'sides' who are guilty and individuals who aren't.

 

Contrary views are represented strongly and frequently on here, so it sounds more like you're frustrated that your views are challenged more often than you'd like - but that's a forum for you, you don't get to set the agenda, and if 20 individuals disagree with you each one of them has as much right to say so as you did when you posted.

 

 

Absolutely agree with you, Smithee, that everyone has an equal right to an opinion, and I would respect their right to same.

 

But my point is HOW their opinions are expressed, irrespective of contrary views.

[gorgie rd eh11]

10 minutes ago, Chris Benoit said:

 

 

I beg to differ 

 

 

 

Aye ok, maybe one. But it's still a Hearts board and whether admitted or not there is a cross over.

 

[Jambo-Fox]

All I can say is, “well done to

all that run & manage this forum”!

 

I only ‘discovered it’ 5 or 6

years ago. At the time it felt great to connect with real Hearts supporters!

 

I buy a season ticket (but rarely use it) &  subscribe to the FOH, however with so much negativity & what I perceive as anti Hearts comments I do question my judgment and financial support for Hearts. However I do reassure myself that the majority (on JKB) are positive Hearts minded people and those ‘that are less positive’ are the small minority! 

 

To be honest I’m not sure a lot of ‘fans’ stop and think about what they actually have especially the ‘moaners’, what would they complain about if there was no Hearts?

 

So Hearts,  “I’ll support you ever more”!!

 

And final once again “WELL DONE” to the JKB forum management team!

[Don Dan]

One of the more popular Hearts forums. Some of the others have dwindling participants. To many Hibby interlopers on here at times but hey ho it makes for fun sometimes.

[Des Lynam]

7 minutes ago, cuddledoon said:

 

 

Absolutely agree with you, Smithee, that everyone has an equal right to an opinion, and I would respect their right to same.

 

But my point is HOW their opinions are expressed, irrespective of contrary views.

 

I’ll admit I can be fairly abusive on here at times but it’s never meant in malice. I think some forget it’s by and large an anonymous forum. 

 

You mention proper debates aren’t being allowed to happen but seem to only want to hear a view favourable to your own. 

[cuddledoon]

1 minute ago, Des Lynam said:

 

I’ll admit I can be fairly abusive on here at times but it’s never meant in malice. I think some forget it’s by and large an anonymous forum. 

 

You mention proper debates aren’t being allowed to happen but seem to only want to hear a view favourable to your own. 

And what view would that be?   And where is your evidence?

[XB52]

This us a Hearts forum for Hearts fans. When people attack the club then they should expect to be challenged. 

[Des Lynam]

2 minutes ago, cuddledoon said:

And what view would that be?   And where is your evidence?

 

Maybe I misread your original post. Are you angry at every boorish opinion? Or the boorish opinions of those that back Levein? 

 

If you’re not happy why not start your own forum and arrange an interview with Ann Budge? 

[cuddledoon]

5 minutes ago, XB52 said:

This us a Hearts forum for Hearts fans. When people attack the club then they should expect to be challenged. 

 

I agree, XB52, debate is healthy, but it is the manner of how views are challenged that is my point.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Sir Gio said:

I find the anti Leveins far more boorish so I find the OP rather strange 

 

Yip, every thread seems to turn into a anti Craig thread.

 

Doesn't seem to matter what the subject is, it ends up a certain group attacking Craig, then some others defending him.

 

Very similar to Robbie.

 

Opinions are good but folk should try and remain on topic and with all respect it's a Hearts forum so if folk start slagging OUR manager, I'd expect some kind of defence, it should be natural for Hearts supporters to defend the club, even although it maybe through tinted glass's some times. Some posters seem surprised that some actually have a default position of support and don't turn easily against all things Hearts.

.

[sadj]

2 hours ago, ...a bit disco said:

 

Where do you get any of this from?

 

As for your 'loudest shouters' point, works both ways mate. In fact, dissenters are quite voluble themselves.

Id say dissenters are far worse takes one post asking why they have the opinion they do and you get dogs abuse and personel insults.

 

There are people of both positions who have an ability to discuss and debate but many just try to shout the other down and like I say when you ask a question its not met kindly. 

[Bazzas right boot]

14 minutes ago, XB52 said:

This us a Hearts forum for Hearts fans. When people attack the club then they should expect to be challenged. 

 

This x 100, especially when insistent and generally only negative with little balance.

 

It should be the default position, I find it strange that some attack the team, manager, players , club and fellow fans with such ease, frequency and at what seems at times-  A joy.

 

 

[Beast Boy]

3 hours ago, cuddledoon said:

 

 

I was a member of the original Kickback and have been a member of this KB since 2006.  Although I rarely post, I have read and do read The Terrace just about every day, and have been entertained and enlightened in equal measures, so I was and remain grateful to those who have provided the service.

 

Supporting our Club - in a variety of ways - through thick and thin - as many have, and I proudly include myself in that number (I first attended Tynecastle in 1954) does not mean that one cannot have and cannot express a view on anything related to Hearts.

 

However, I am saddened and disappointed at what I perceive to be a downward trend, namely the hijacking of Kickback by a “posse” of aggressive and abusive (contrary to the forum rules) posters, quite determined to impose their will, even to the extent of bullying and asserting their views. I feel that it is a shame that a number of reasonable and interesting contributors have either stopped posting or have gone elsewhere as a result.

 

No doubt I shall be subject to abuse for daring to raise my head above the parapet and criticising boorish behaviour and downright rudeness, but if you read through the threads it becomes clear that there is a real attempt to out-shout those who wish to raise legitimate concerns about matters on the pitch in particular.

 

Whilst grateful for the efforts made by those who interviewed Mrs Budge for the KB Q and A, and, one can only conclude, in order to curry favour with the owner and retain an on-going relationship between her and KB, there was no attempt at any depth or forensic examination of the laid-down targets, or of results or failures, which we have had to come to accept in recent months.

 

My understanding of the feelings of many Jambos (and I am fortunate to be in a position where I able to garnish the opinions of a wide cross section) is of increasing dissatisfaction with Mr Levein, despite the gang approach of the shout-louder-than-you “posse”, some of whom, it has been suggested, seem to be “ in the pocket” of our Head Coach/D of F/Board Member.

 

It is not unreasonable to suggest that Kickback needs to be very careful that it does not allow an element to take it over, and that it retains a balance so it does not appear that people are unable to express a contrary view to those who try to bully and shout loudest.

 

 

 

Who are the interesting and reasonable posters who have been bullied in to posting elsewhere, and can you give examples of the bullying?

[Mike Tyson]

15 minutes ago, XB52 said:

This us a Hearts forum for Hearts fans. When people attack the club then they should expect to be challenged. 

Being down about the current state of the club isn’t necessarily an “attack”. There is very little to be positive about right now. When things are going well, the place is very upbeat and the fan base as a whole seem more united. When it’s going badly like it has the last 2 seasons, you’ll get a divide between realistic fans and those who stand their ground and try to remain completely positive throughout.

[sadj]

1 minute ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

This x 100, especially when insistent and generally only negative with little balance.

 

It should be the default position, I find it strange that some attack the team, manager, players , club and fellow fans with such ease, frequency and at what seems at times-  A joy.

 

 

X 1000 

[Bazzas right boot]

2 minutes ago, Mike Tyson said:

Being down about the current state of the club isn’t necessarily an “attack”. There is very little to be positive about right now. When things are going well, the place is very upbeat and the fan base as a whole seem more united. When it’s going badly like it has the last 2 seasons, you’ll get a divide between realistic fans and those who stand their ground and try to remain completely positive throughout.

 

I'd argue it's upbeat at times as certain posters take a break.

 

I don't think anyone is positive throughout, most I( if not all) realise work needs done, the debate seems to be about the solution to the problem. Balance is key. some do not have it and engage the same point across multiple threads for days/ weeks. The only cure being a Hearts win, when suddenly they go very quiet and praise is scant.

 

 

[sadj]

1 minute ago, Mike Tyson said:

Being down about the current state of the club isn’t necessarily an “attack”. There is very little to be positive about right now. When things are going well, the place is very upbeat and the fan base as a whole seem more united. When it’s going badly like it has the last 2 seasons, you’ll get a divide between realistic fans and those who stand their ground and try to remain completely positive throughout.

Or realistic fans and those that remain completely negative throughout. 

 

It works two ways. Realistic to myself and others are things are not acceptable but we see a bigger picture and understand reasons behind things. Realistic to you may be that we are never going to win a game again. Its again all about views. 

 

Before the Hibs cup game people were laying into the club , after the Newcastle game they were backing IC for a large part. Its the nature of social media. 

 

Debate is good but I tend to find more often than not certain posters on both sides resort to personel abuse instead of debating their point. 

 

The nature of a football fan will always be an irrational attitude toward the club due to the passion we all have for it.

[@VladMagic]

3 hours ago, cuddledoon said:

 

 

I was a member of the original Kickback and have been a member of this KB since 2006.  Although I rarely post, I have read and do read The Terrace just about every day, and have been entertained and enlightened in equal measures, so I was and remain grateful to those who have provided the service.

 

Supporting our Club - in a variety of ways - through thick and thin - as many have, and I proudly include myself in that number (I first attended Tynecastle in 1954) does not mean that one cannot have and cannot express a view on anything related to Hearts.

 

However, I am saddened and disappointed at what I perceive to be a downward trend, namely the hijacking of Kickback by a “posse” of aggressive and abusive (contrary to the forum rules) posters, quite determined to impose their will, even to the extent of bullying and asserting their views. I feel that it is a shame that a number of reasonable and interesting contributors have either stopped posting or have gone elsewhere as a result.

 

No doubt I shall be subject to abuse for daring to raise my head above the parapet and criticising boorish behaviour and downright rudeness, but if you read through the threads it becomes clear that there is a real attempt to out-shout those who wish to raise legitimate concerns about matters on the pitch in particular.

 

Whilst grateful for the efforts made by those who interviewed Mrs Budge for the KB Q and A, and, one can only conclude, in order to curry favour with the owner and retain an on-going relationship between her and KB, there was no attempt at any depth or forensic examination of the laid-down targets, or of results or failures, which we have had to come to accept in recent months.

 

My understanding of the feelings of many Jambos (and I am fortunate to be in a position where I able to garnish the opinions of a wide cross section) is of increasing dissatisfaction with Mr Levein, despite the gang approach of the shout-louder-than-you “posse”, some of whom, it has been suggested, seem to be “ in the pocket” of our Head Coach/D of F/Board Member.

 

It is not unreasonable to suggest that Kickback needs to be very careful that it does not allow an element to take it over, and that it retains a balance so it does not appear that people are unable to express a contrary view to those who try to bully and shout loudest.

 

 

 

It will get worse. Far far worse before it gets any better.

 

Its going to take a huge effort to sort it out.

 

And you know this.

 

 

[Morgan]

Much rather this than the ‘other one’ where it seems to be ‘cool’ to swear as much as you like.

[Bazzas right boot]

5 minutes ago, Bez said:

 

Who are the interesting and reasonable posters who have been bullied in to posting elsewhere, and can you give examples of the bullying?

 

 

I don't know if I am reasonable and/ interesting but just yesterday I was called a "hibbee" and a liar form a poster with 50 odd posts.

 

Bullying is a bit strong, it's the tinterent, but there are aggressive posters.

 

I got over it, but this type of engagement might put folk off.

[sadj]

1 minute ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

I'd argue it's upbeat at times as certain posters take a break.

 

I don't think anyone is positive throughout, most I( if not all) realise work needs done, the debate seems to be about the solution to the problem. Balance is key. some do not have it and engage the same point across multiple threads for days/ weeks. The only cure being a Hearts win, when suddenly they go very quiet and praise is scant.

 

 

There is also the fact that many posters will turn all threads to their point of view on something unrelated , usually a criticism of a player or management. When you read it on constant threads and want to discuss the actual topic but can’t due to the hijacking of it it becomes very boring and elicits a less than polite response from most.

[...a bit disco]

11 minutes ago, sadj said:

Id say dissenters are far worse takes one post asking why they have the opinion they do and you get dogs abuse and personel insults.

 

There are people of both positions who have an ability to discuss and debate but many just try to shout the other down and like I say when you ask a question its not met kindly. 

 

Good God man!

 

I was trying to be, ahem,...diplomatic!

 

 

[Morgan]

1 minute ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

 

I don't know if I am reasonable and/ interesting but just yesterday I was called a "hibbee" and a liar form a poster with 50 odd posts.

 

Bullying is a bit strong, it's the tinterent, but there are aggressive posters.

 

I got over it, but this type of engagement might put folk off.

[cuddledoon]

1 minute ago, Des Lynam said:

 

Maybe I misread your original post. Are you angry at every boorish opinion? Or the boorish opinions of those that back Levein? 

 

If you’re not happy why not start your own forum and arrange an interview with Ann Budge? 

 

 

You are misrepresenting me. I have not stated that I am angry.  I am disappointed, having followed KB in its forms for all of its existence, that it has deteriorated.  Irrespective of backing or not backing a particular standpoint, I do not think it is in the long-term interest of Kickback to allow the abuse and disrespect which is being shown by people holding extreme positions, irrespective of which position.

 

FYI  as I have stated I appreciate the work done by various people who have given us Kickback, and see it still as a useful tool for Hearts - club and fans.  So no desire to start my own forum.

 

i have had several opportunities to speak with Ann Budge, and am more than capable of requesting and getting a meeting with her through approaching her in the correct manner and with relevant reason. I have found that she is always willing to discuss if one is respectful and considerate, qualities that many posters on here lack! 

[Morgan]

2 minutes ago, sadj said:

There is also the fact that many posters will turn all threads to their point of view on something unrelated , usually a criticism of a player or management. When you read it on constant threads and want to discuss the actual topic but can’t due to the hijacking of it it becomes very boring and elicits a less than polite response from most.

And  again.

[Bazzas right boot]

2 minutes ago, sadj said:

There is also the fact that many posters will turn all threads to their point of view on something unrelated , usually a criticism of a player or management. When you read it on constant threads and want to discuss the actual topic but can’t due to the hijacking of it it becomes very boring and elicits a less than polite response from most.

 

Yip,It also takes away from any point they may have had that was worth debate.

 

They think if I spam every thread with my opinion it will be accepted, but instead they detract from the original debate and any valid points they may havehad as they generally annoy- everyone.

[sadj]

2 minutes ago, ...a bit disco said:

 

Good God man!

 

I was trying to be, ahem,...diplomatic!

 

 

You diplomatic? Whats happened to you! If you try to be diplomatic on here we all might aswell give up and go home.

 

 

At arms and stand your ground man!!! ?

[Beast Boy]

3 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

 

I don't know if I am reasonable and/ interesting but just yesterday I was called a "hibbee" and a liar form a poster with 50 odd posts.

 

Bullying is a bit strong, it's the tinterent, but there are aggressive posters.

 

I got over it, but this type of engagement might put folk off.

 

From his post, I got the impression he was actually referring to particular posters who have now left the board. I was interested to find out who they are. 

[shaun.lawson]

This is an interesting and worthy thread. The OP raised a number of important, well argued points. But in my view, they can't really be answered.

 

This place had a lot of, for want of a better phrase, 'characters' some years back. I found them funny, sharp, entertaining, engaging... but at times, they did go too far. At times, they didn't know where the line was. At times, they ganged up on other posters just for the hell of it. So while they enjoyed themselves, others certainly didn't.

 

This place seems to lack those sorts of 'characters' now. Most of them are elsewhere, posting on a very different forum - but that doesn't make them right and JKB wrong, or JKB right and them wrong. It's simply different strokes for different folks. The forum they're on has next to no moderation - so they often take things a lot further than before, for both good and bad. This place has plenty of moderation: which keeps things under control, hopefully prevents any sort of nasty bullying, but will no doubt frustrate people at times.

 

Then, there's the football side of things. The forum I mentioned is pretty much 100% anti-Levein, to a frankly obsessive extent; and often quite anti-Budge too. This place is (rightly, in my view) extremely pro-Budge, and the poll suggested it was substantially pro-Levein: which is, well, not my position, at least. Which is the better representation of the Hearts support? Who knows? Everyone on this forum and that forum are Hearts fans of one kind or another. 

 

For my part, I have noticed what the OP mentions about the loudest, angriest posters often being the most pro-Levein ones - and what results can be pretty unpleasant, but I don't think it's out of hand. Of much more philosophical concern to me is: if Kickback was too fiercely critical of the club, would the club have a good relationship with Kickback? And that must impact on the ability of those running this forum to be truly independent. It has to. It's human nature. 

 

Is it a good thing that this forum can organise a Q&A with Ann Budge? Yes, absolutely. It's the exact opposite of the total disconnect felt during Romanov's time. And the role JKB played in organising donations, fundraising etc when the club was at death's door was magnificent, invaluable. But one person's idea of a well moderated forum might be another person's idea of a propaganda machine; one person's idea of a laugh and a joke might be another person's idea of bullying.

 

Different strokes for different folks. You can't please everyone all the time; you can't please everyone some of the time. If this place pleases most people at least some of the time, it's doing perfectly fine. And the same goes for the other forum I mentioned too.

[BobbyJenkins]

Holier than thou nonsense. 

[Bazzas right boot]

To answer the OP

 

There are glass half empty type of folks and glass half full type of folks.

 

There will always be disagreements.

 

Me- I'm a Glass half full.

 

 

 

 

[Haken]

1 hour ago, cuddledoon said:

 

Quod erat demonstrandum

 

To be fair, I knew when I posted it was in my mind that my post was liable to drawing that kind of response.  The fact that you feel the way to respond is by using Latin is a clear sign of your superior intellect.

 

For such a close reader of this forum, it must have occurred to you that in one of your rare forays you weren't exactly saying anything that isn't being said every single day on here?

 

I guess it's all about perception.  My perception is that there's been a steady stream of Hearts bashing since we came out of the Championship.  Neilson, Cathro, 

Levein and even Ann Budge have all been targets.  And then you can add the players like Buaben, Djoum and Cowie who are fairly regular targets.  There's a fine line between criticism and abuse.  This place must be manna from heaven for Hibs fans at the moment.

[luckydug]

54 minutes ago, cuddledoon said:

 

I doubt whether there is one post on here which does not contain abuse or disrespect.

Whilst few, myself included, would want the forum sanitized, in my opinion as a long-term reader, Kickback is losing good posters and becoming more and more depressing and less valuable because rules are not being observed and some posters are getting away with bullying and abusive comments.

 

it is only my opinion, and it can of course be rubbished because I am a “septuagenarian” (as was pointed out earlier in this thread - Implication that we oldies are well past it?). However I have certain standards and, answering your question, Mr Kilpatrick, people who do not know the meaning of respect and courtesy are being allowed to spoil Kickback.

As a Hearts supporter who has followed the club since 1958 i strongly disagree with your opinions.

This board is well run and performs a valuable function for Hearts fans from near and far. There is always going to be differences in opinion and the board is well moderated in comparison to other sites.

To try and say those of us who are against knee jerk reactions to a poor season are bullying others is unfair and is in itself  an attempt to intimidate.

There are strong and passionate opinions because we all want the best for our club.

 

[Des Lynam]

7 minutes ago, cuddledoon said:

 

 

You are misrepresenting me. I have not stated that I am angry.  I am disappointed, having followed KB in its forms for all of its existence, that it has deteriorated.  Irrespective of backing or not backing a particular standpoint, I do not think it is in the long-term interest of Kickback to allow the abuse and disrespect which is being shown by people holding extreme positions, irrespective of which position.

 

FYI  as I have stated I appreciate the work done by various people who have given us Kickback, and see it still as a useful tool for Hearts - club and fans.  So no desire to start my own forum.

 

i have had several opportunities to speak with Ann Budge, and am more than capable of requesting and getting a meeting with her through approaching her in the correct manner and with relevant reason. I have found that she is always willing to discuss if one is respectful and considerate, qualities that many posters on here lack! 

 

Are you Mr Kelman? 

[DalryJambo]

3 hours ago, cuddledoon said:

 

 

I was a member of the original Kickback and have been a member of this KB since 2006.  Although I rarely post, I have read and do read The Terrace just about every day, and have been entertained and enlightened in equal measures, so I was and remain grateful to those who have provided the service.

 

Supporting our Club - in a variety of ways - through thick and thin - as many have, and I proudly include myself in that number (I first attended Tynecastle in 1954) does not mean that one cannot have and cannot express a view on anything related to Hearts.

 

However, I am saddened and disappointed at what I perceive to be a downward trend, namely the hijacking of Kickback by a “posse” of aggressive and abusive (contrary to the forum rules) posters, quite determined to impose their will, even to the extent of bullying and asserting their views. I feel that it is a shame that a number of reasonable and interesting contributors have either stopped posting or have gone elsewhere as a result.

 

No doubt I shall be subject to abuse for daring to raise my head above the parapet and criticising boorish behaviour and downright rudeness, but if you read through the threads it becomes clear that there is a real attempt to out-shout those who wish to raise legitimate concerns about matters on the pitch in particular.

 

Whilst grateful for the efforts made by those who interviewed Mrs Budge for the KB Q and A, and, one can only conclude, in order to curry favour with the owner and retain an on-going relationship between her and KB, there was no attempt at any depth or forensic examination of the laid-down targets, or of results or failures, which we have had to come to accept in recent months.

 

My understanding of the feelings of many Jambos (and I am fortunate to be in a position where I able to garnish the opinions of a wide cross section) is of increasing dissatisfaction with Mr Levein, despite the gang approach of the shout-louder-than-you “posse”, some of whom, it has been suggested, seem to be “ in the pocket” of our Head Coach/D of F/Board Member.

 

It is not unreasonable to suggest that Kickback needs to be very careful that it does not allow an element to take it over, and that it retains a balance so it does not appear that people are unable to express a contrary view to those who try to bully and shout loudest.

 

 

 

The really funny thing is that I feel almost exactly the same but from the completely opposite side of the argument! 

[Marooned Abroad]

1 hour ago, cuddledoon said:

 

I doubt whether there is one post on here which does not contain abuse or disrespect.

Whilst few, myself included, would want the forum sanitized, in my opinion as a long-term reader, Kickback is losing good posters and becoming more and more depressing and less valuable because rules are not being observed and some posters are getting away with bullying and abusive comments.

 

it is only my opinion, and it can of course be rubbished because I am a “septuagenarian” (as was pointed out earlier in this thread - Implication that we oldies are well past it?). However I have certain standards and, answering your question, Mr Kilpatrick, people who do not know the meaning of respect and courtesy are being allowed to spoil Kickback.

Hear hear sir! As a fellow septuagenarian, perhaps our length of time supporting Hearts and having gone through all the ups and downs of many decades gives us a sense of perspective which cannot be achieved by younger supporters.

I await being shouted down!

[Don Dan]

4 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

And the role JKB played in organising donations, fundraising etc when the club was at death's door was magnificent, invaluable.

 

The only reason I signed on here. 

Initially I posted on a few threads in the Shed but decided it’s not really my cup of tea. Still read stuff on there but try and stick to the football related threads. Suits me better. 

[jr ewing]

Reflects  the  football  on  offer  at the  moment. Hopefully  things  will  improve. 

[sadj]

1 minute ago, Haken said:

To be fair, I knew when I posted it was in my mind that my post was liable to drawing that kind of response.  The fact that you feel the way to respond is by using Latin is a clear sign of your superior intellect.

 

For such a close reader of this forum, it must have occurred to you that in one of your rare forays you weren't exactly saying anything that isn't being said every single day on here?

 

I guess it's all about perception.  My perception is that there's been a steady stream of Hearts bashing since we came out of the Championship.  Neilson, Cathro, 

Levein and even Ann Budge have all been targets.  And then you can add the players like Buaben, Djoum and Cowie who are fairly regular targets.  There's a fine line between criticism and abuse.  This place must be manna from heaven for Hibs fans at the moment.

Cant argue that. I tend to see the people on the forum who are anti Levein and/or anti Budge as the ones who very often jump to using “superior intellect” to belittle others. What Shaun said is right the characters on here have changed. Tho I would say its a better forum now than days gone by. One of the most noticeable things however is that when there is positivity around the club or a result there is a core of posters who disappear. It is only when there is negativity that they reappear. It makes you ask yourself their motive for this. 

[SpruceBringsteen]

3 hours ago, cuddledoon said:

My understanding of the feelings of many Jambos (and I am fortunate to be in a position where I able to garnish the opinions of a wide cross section) is of increasing dissatisfaction with Mr Levein, despite the gang approach of the shout-louder-than-you “posse”, some of whom, it has been suggested, seem to be “ in the pocket” of our Head Coach/D of F/Board Member.

 

Can confirm that if CL or Ann B want to sling me a few quid to become a cheerleader, then I'm cheap as chips and my PMs are open.

 

[Morgan]

13 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

This is an interesting and worthy thread. The OP raised a number of important, well argued points. But in my view, they can't really be answered.

 

This place had a lot of, for want of a better phrase, 'characters' some years back. I found them funny, sharp, entertaining, engaging... but at times, they did go too far. At times, they didn't know where the line was. At times, they ganged up on other posters just for the hell of it. So while they enjoyed themselves, others certainly didn't.

 

This place seems to lack those sorts of 'characters' now. Most of them are elsewhere, posting on a very different forum - but that doesn't make them right and JKB wrong, or JKB right and them wrong. It's simply different strokes for different folks. The forum they're on has next to no moderation - so they often take things a lot further than before, for both good and bad. This place has plenty of moderation: which keeps things under control, hopefully prevents any sort of nasty bullying, but will no doubt frustrate people at times.

 

Then, there's the football side of things. The forum I mentioned is pretty much 100% anti-Levein, to a frankly obsessive extent; and often quite anti-Budge too. This place is (rightly, in my view) extremely pro-Budge, and the poll suggested it was substantially pro-Levein: which is, well, not my position, at least. Which is the better representation of the Hearts support? Who knows? Everyone on this forum and that forum are Hearts fans of one kind or another. 

 

For my part, I have noticed what the OP mentions about the loudest, angriest posters often being the most pro-Levein ones - and what results can be pretty unpleasant, but I don't think it's out of hand. Of much more philosophical concern to me is: if Kickback was too fiercely critical of the club, would the club have a good relationship with Kickback? And that must impact on the ability of those running this forum to be truly independent. It has to. It's human nature. 

 

Is it a good thing that this forum can organise a Q&A with Ann Budge? Yes, absolutely. It's the exact opposite of the total disconnect felt during Romanov's time. And the role JKB played in organising donations, fundraising etc when the club was at death's door was magnificent, invaluable. But one person's idea of a well moderated forum might be another person's idea of a propaganda machine; one person's idea of a laugh and a joke might be another person's idea of bullying.

 

Different strokes for different folks. You can't please everyone all the time; you can't please everyone some of the time. If this place pleases most people at least some of the time, it's doing perfectly fine. And the same goes for the other forum I mentioned too.

Shaun?

 

the other forum you mention? 

 

13 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

This is an interesting and worthy thread. The OP raised a number of important, well argued points. But in my view, they can't really be answered.

 

This place had a lot of, for want of a better phrase, 'characters' some years back. I found them funny, sharp, entertaining, engaging... but at times, they did go too far. At times, they didn't know where the line was. At times, they ganged up on other posters just for the hell of it. So while they enjoyed themselves, others certainly didn't.

 

This place seems to lack those sorts of 'characters' now. Most of them are elsewhere, posting on a very different forum - but that doesn't make them right and JKB wrong, or JKB right and them wrong. It's simply different strokes for different folks. The forum they're on has next to no moderation - so they often take things a lot further than before, for both good and bad. This place has plenty of moderation: which keeps things under control, hopefully prevents any sort of nasty bullying, but will no doubt frustrate people at times.

 

Then, there's the football side of things. The forum I mentioned is pretty much 100% anti-Levein, to a frankly obsessive extent; and often quite anti-Budge too. This place is (rightly, in my view) extremely pro-Budge, and the poll suggested it was substantially pro-Levein: which is, well, not my position, at least. Which is the better representation of the Hearts support? Who knows? Everyone on this forum and that forum are Hearts fans of one kind or another. 

 

For my part, I have noticed what the OP mentions about the loudest, angriest posters often being the most pro-Levein ones - and what results can be pretty unpleasant, but I don't think it's out of hand. Of much more philosophical concern to me is: if Kickback was too fiercely critical of the club, would the club have a good relationship with Kickback? And that must impact on the ability of those running this forum to be truly independent. It has to. It's human nature. 

 

Is it a good thing that this forum can organise a Q&A with Ann Budge? Yes, absolutely. It's the exact opposite of the total disconnect felt during Romanov's time. And the role JKB played in organising donations, fundraising etc when the club was at death's door was magnificent, invaluable. But one person's idea of a well moderated forum might be another person's idea of a propaganda machine; one person's idea of a laugh and a joke might be another person's idea of bullying.

 

Different strokes for different folks. You can't please everyone all the time; you can't please everyone some of the time. If this place pleases most people at least some of the time, it's doing perfectly fine. And the same goes for the other forum I mentioned too.

Doubler, sorry.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 hour ago, cuddledoon said:

 

I doubt whether there is one post on here which does not contain abuse or disrespect.

Whilst few, myself included, would want the forum sanitized, in my opinion as a long-term reader, Kickback is losing good posters and becoming more and more depressing and less valuable because rules are not being observed and some posters are getting away with bullying and abusive comments.

 

it is only my opinion, and it can of course be rubbished because I am a “septuagenarian” (as was pointed out earlier in this thread - Implication that we oldies are well past it?). However I have certain standards and, answering your question, Mr Kilpatrick, people who do not know the meaning of respect and courtesy are being allowed to spoil Kickback.

So you couldn't provide an answer to the question then.

[sadj]

5 minutes ago, Marooned Abroad said:

Hear hear sir! As a fellow septuagenarian, perhaps our length of time supporting Hearts and having gone through all the ups and downs of many decades gives us a sense of perspective which cannot be achieved by younger supporters.

I await being shouted down!

I think its wrong to say the older fans are the more realistic ones in terms of the club as a whole. There is definately a lot of posters my age and older who constantly find negativity in all aspects of the club. The demographic is not as you suggest if you read threads thoroughly and get an idea of the ages of supporters with certain opinions.

 

In saying that there is also a sense of entitlement that we should be achieving higher than our average achievements every year , which while not limited to the younger fans is more noticeable amongst them imo

[Bring Back Paulo Sergio]

The biggest problem with here is there are people who agree with absolutely anything the club.  From keeping arguably the worst head coach / manager in history to blaming a squad laced with internationals for Levein's inept tactics. They will aggressively defend every and all decisions made by Levein.

 

Edit: I think it's that they just don't really care that much. As long as we get to a final once every decade and there's still a club to occasionally support. Well, as long as rugby isn't on.

 

 

[DalryJambo]

1 hour ago, cuddledoon said:

 

I doubt whether there is one post on here which does not contain abuse or disrespect.

Whilst few, myself included, would want the forum sanitized, in my opinion as a long-term reader, Kickback is losing good posters and becoming more and more depressing and less valuable because rules are not being observed and some posters are getting away with bullying and abusive comments.

 

it is only my opinion, and it can of course be rubbished because I am a “septuagenarian” (as was pointed out earlier in this thread - Implication that we oldies are well past it?). However I have certain standards and, answering your question, Mr Kilpatrick, people who do not know the meaning of respect and courtesy are being allowed to spoil Kickback.

Are good posters the ones that agree with you and the bad ones the ones that don’t?

 

Surely everyone can have an opinion?  I agree it shouldn’t become personal or offensive.

[luckydug]

12 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

To answer the OP

 

There are glass half empty type of folks and glass half full type of folks.

 

There will always be disagreements.

 

Me- I'm a Glass half full.

 

 

 

 

Can you imagine  Cuddledoon's reaction if he had to take a fraction of the stick you have to take.

[jake]

I'm often the victim of gangs of bullys on here.

Especially in the shed where I am always in the right about politics and they are all wrong.?

The terrace is a bit boring just now but it does seem to have at least settled with all the mini hun pish.

Kickbacks decent .

Could do with a wee witch hunt against the poster who put THAT thread up before the cup 16 cup final though.

I love that ?

[Morgan]

1 minute ago, luckydug said:

Can you imagine  Cuddledoon's reaction if he had to take a fraction of the stick you have to take.

 Dug.

 

Tosh is definitely one of the good guys.

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, DalryJambo said:

I agree it shouldn’t become personal or offensive.

 

And to be fair, that's not a Kickback thing. It's an internet thing.

 

Twitter/Facebook/YouTube commenters (abandon all hope, ye who enter here), much of the discussion on newspaper sites, etc etc etc. Online discourse has become massively more polarised, personalised and often astoundingly nasty for all sorts of reasons.

 

I don't think that'll ever change now, sadly. Not when hits and advertising revenue (and hence, sensationalism and personalisation: "X DESTROYS Y in this interview, click on my video and see!") are the only thing these various forms of media are interested in.