deesidejambo Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Victorian said: A boycott of the World Cup is way, way too messy and contentious to be remotely achievable. Governments and national football associations would never be able to agree to it. I think Putin knows his World Cup is safe but he'll quite happily lap up all suggestions of a boycott. More perceived anti-Russia propaganda to be hawked to the masses. You are probably right but the mere suggestion of it may be enough -true it wont bother Russia, but it may bother FIFA!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All roads lead to Gorgie Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 I just hope he doesn't do anything towards the Baltic States once the World Cup is over. After the Sotchi games he annexed Crimea! The west has to stand together on this and the Brexit supporters must be wondering what a mess they have made of unity in Europe at this dangerous time in history! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab87 Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 The lack of words from Donald Trump are very telling. Good to see the Secretary of Stare Rex Tillerson has our back at least. Quote Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said Monday that the poisoning of an ex-Russian spy in Britain “clearly came from Russia” and “certainly will trigger a response." Tillerson said in a statement that he doesn’t know if the Kremlin was aware of the poisoning, but that the nerve agent used in the attack could not have come from any other country. He called the attack “a really egregious act” and said it was “almost beyond comprehension” that officials of any government would use the poison in a public location. “From Ukraine to Syria — and now the [United Kingdom] — Russia continues to be an irresponsible force of instability in the world, acting with open disregard for the sovereignty of other states and the life of their citizens,” Tillerson said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rab87 said: The lack of words from Donald Trump are very telling. Good to see the Secretary of Stare Rex Tillerson has our back at least. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/donald-trump-russia_uk_5aa77be6e4b087e5aaed50ec Just what do the Russians have on Trump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Russia's latest chess move in the game of denial. They've requested access to the material recovered in the investigation. For checks. Request turned down. Now they'll jusy say that without mutual verification that it's their materials, they can't be blamed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 43 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/donald-trump-russia_uk_5aa77be6e4b087e5aaed50ec Just what do the Russians have on Trump? Nothing. I think Trump and Putin are psychopaths and have agreed with each other how they will carve up the world. Putin wants to expand the Russian Empire and Trump wants to be seen as some sort of world-saviour. Problem is - it could work for both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Potter Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Victorian said: Russia's latest chess move in the game of denial. They've requested access to the material recovered in the investigation. For checks. Request turned down. Now they'll jusy say that without mutual verification that it's their materials, they can't be blamed. Suppose if your being accused, then to except liability, getting access to evidence should not be denied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, Harry Potter said: Suppose if your being accused, then to except liability, getting access to evidence should not be denied. If they were allowed it, they would surely kick the can a long way down the road and eventually conclude that it didn't originate from them or has been reversed engineered by someone else. They aren't going to admit anything under any conceivable circumstance. The UK is right to have narrowed down the possibilities to two. State ordered use or criminally negligent loss of chemical stocks. They can't be allowed to muddy the waters in amy other way. The verification can be done independently by the international chemical weapons inspectorate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Potter Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Just now, Victorian said: If they were allowed it, they would surely kick the can a long way down the road and eventually conclude that it didn't originate from them or has been reversed engineered by someone else. They aren't going to admit anything under any conceivable circumstance. The UK is right to have narrowed down the possibilities to two. State ordered use or criminally negligent loss of chemical stocks. They can't be allowed to muddy the waters in amy other way. The verification can be done independently by the international chemical weapons inspectorate. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Then again, to Russia there's no such thing as anyone independent. But that's just them. They're the Rangers of the international community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab87 Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 Rex Tillerson has been ousted by Trump as the Secretary of State. Coincidence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, Rab87 said: Rex Tillerson has been ousted by Trump as the Secretary of State. Coincidence? Probably not. But it was coming anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 NATO is the important alliance, not the EU. The EU had a disastrous record in Yugoslavia: https://www.wrmea.org/1993-april-may/why-europe-failed-to-halt-the-genocide-in-bosnia.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab87 Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 27 minutes ago, deesidejambo said: Probably not. But it was coming anyway. It would seem he was asked to step down on Friday. So his comments were likely as harsh, as he knew he was about to be ousted. What a world we live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim Tall Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Seemingly Tillerson, Mattis and Steven Mnuchin had some pact where all 3 would resign if one was pushed out so things could get interesting... Ironic that Tillerson who apparently was originally a sign of Trumps 'ties' to Russia and Putin due to his past connections and associations has seemingly been sacked for pointing the finger at Russia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey J J Jr Shabadoo Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Another Russian dead, London this time. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/russian-exile-nikolai-glushkov-found-dead-at-his-london-home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Gorgiewave said: NATO is the important alliance, not the EU. The EU had a disastrous record in Yugoslavia: https://www.wrmea.org/1993-april-may/why-europe-failed-to-halt-the-genocide-in-bosnia.html You are repeating something that you said in a different thread. It made little sense then and it makes little sense now. 1) Many EU countries are in NATO. 2) NATO is a military alliance, the EU financial and latterly political. 3) The EU then is not the same beast as it is now. Edited March 13, 2018 by AlphonseCapone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Have a read of what Russian weapons expert Dr Mirzayanov has said about the longer term consequences of this nerve agent, both for significant exposure and as yet unknown trace exposure. If what he says is credible, there's going to be an almighty shitstorm from Salisbury locals. And those in hospital have a very bleak outlook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab87 Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, Victorian said: Have a read of what Russian weapons expert Dr Mirzayanov has said about the longer term consequences of this nerve agent, both for significant exposure and as yet unknown trace exposure. If what he says is credible, there's going to be an almighty shitstorm from Salisbury locals. And those in hospital have a very bleak outlook. Could you link me to that please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said: You are repeating something that you said in a different thread. It made little sense then and it makes little sense now. 1) Many EU countries are in NATO. 2) NATO is a military alliance, the EU financial and latterly political. 3) The EU then is not the same beast as it is now. See the NATO Enhanced Forward Presence, protecting Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland? The main participants are the UK, the USA, Canada and Germany, two of whom are in the EU and one of which will be in the EU in 381 days. That's actual pressure on Russia and nothing to do with the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Enhanced_Forward_Presence Peace in Europe is guaranteed by NATO, as it has been since 1949. The exception was when the EU was entrusted with Yugoslavia, before the Bosnian Muslims were rescued by NATO, mainly the USA, the UK and the Netherlands. All while Russia supported Serbia and the EU was hopeless. A rescue of Bosnian Muslims that Russia Today jovial chap Alex Salmond described as "unpardonable folly." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rab87 said: Could you link me to that please? https://news.sky.com/story/spy-poisoning-novichok-inventor-says-hundreds-could-be-at-risk-for-years-11287880 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab87 Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: https://news.sky.com/story/spy-poisoning-novichok-inventor-says-hundreds-could-be-at-risk-for-years-11287880 Blimey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Is this Maybots Falklands moment she desperately needs? USA had Novichok ages ago. https://mobile.nytimes.com/1999/05/25/world/us-and-uzbeks-agree-on-chemical-arms-plant-cleanup.html?referer=https://t.co/66KytBs36y?amp=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: Is this Maybots Falklands moment she desperately needs? USA had Novichok ages ago. https://mobile.nytimes.com/1999/05/25/world/us-and-uzbeks-agree-on-chemical-arms-plant-cleanup.html?referer=https://t.co/66KytBs36y?amp=1 The article says no such thing. "American aid in dismantling and decontaminating one of the former Soviet Union's largest chemical weapons testing facilities" not "America has Novichok." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 9 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: See the NATO Enhanced Forward Presence, protecting Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland? The main participants are the UK, the USA, Canada and Germany, two of whom are in the EU and one of which will be in the EU in 381 days. That's actual pressure on Russia and nothing to do with the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Enhanced_Forward_Presence Peace in Europe is guaranteed by NATO, as it has been since 1949. The exception was when the EU was entrusted with Yugoslavia, before the Bosnian Muslims were rescued by NATO, mainly the USA, the UK and the Netherlands. All while Russia supported Serbia and the EU was hopeless. A rescue of Bosnian Muslims that Russia Today jovial chap Alex Salmond described as "unpardonable folly." What actual pressure has it put on Russia? Since then they've continually sent nuclear capable planes to the borders of many EU nations including the UK, sailed a flagship aircraft carrier through the English Channel, committed an act of terrorism essentially on the UK mainland and done God knows how many things in Syria. Russia couldn't give a shit about a few UK units in Eastern Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 9 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: The article says no such thing. "American aid in dismantling and decontaminating one of the former Soviet Union's largest chemical weapons testing facilities" not "America has Novichok." Yep, they provided a bulldozer and a couple of hundred skips and that was that. They US intelligence services would have had no interest in any manufacturing, documents or interviewing former employees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 I wonder if Walt has had a go at making it? https://alchetron.com/Novichok-agent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 I wondered how long it would take for this to turn into Americas fault. That said there is indeed something odd about this - if Putin was behind it why not just get a local mobster hitman in London to shoot them? No poison, no trace back to Russia, no collateral damage etc. Apparently its about £40,000 a hit (ahem, so I'm told). I suspect there is more to this than meets the eye. It wont stop the Russians rearming themselves ready for the invasion of Ukraine though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 If May, or those advising May ,had came out and accused me that i had poisoned her dog i would be demanding evidence . MOSCOW: Russia on Tuesday (Mar 13) rejected Britain's demand that Moscow provide an explanation over the poisoning of an ex-double agent and said London should provide Moscow with access to the nerve agent. "Before giving ultimatums it's better to honour your own obligations on international law," Sergey Lavrov told reporters, referring to the Chemical Weapons Convention. Russia's top diplomat said that Britain should have sent Moscow an official request about the substance used on its soil. Lavrov said Russia had not received such a request and also demanded to be given access to the Russian-made nerve agent used to poison former double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia. "Through an official note we had demanded access to this substance," Lavrov said, adding that Russia also asked to be informed about the investigation. "Our requests have been denied." "If the procedures stipulated by the convention will be implemented I assure you that Russia will fulfil its obligations," Lavrov said. He insisted that Moscow was not to blame for the poisoning of the former agent said it was ready to cooperate with London. "Russia is not guilty. Russia is ready to cooperate according to the Chemical Weapons Convention, if Britain takes the trouble and condescends to carry out its international obligations according to the same document," Lavrov told a press conference. Separately, a spokeswoman for the Russian foreign ministry, Maria Zakharova, said the ministry had summoned the British ambassador, Laurie Bristow, amid the escalating poisoning row. Read more at https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/russia-rejects-britain-s-ultimatum-wants-access-to-nerve-agent-10040296 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Good article from Murray giving other just as valid reasons why he might have been killed. Orbis Intelligence, who he worked for and the Israelis too. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/russian-to-judgement/amp/?__twitter_impression=true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 23 minutes ago, deesidejambo said: I wondered how long it would take for this to turn into Americas fault. That said there is indeed something odd about this - if Putin was behind it why not just get a local mobster hitman in London to shoot them? No poison, no trace back to Russia, no collateral damage etc. Apparently its about £40,000 a hit (ahem, so I'm told). I suspect there is more to this than meets the eye. It wont stop the Russians rearming themselves ready for the invasion of Ukraine though. The exact opposite. The point is to leave absolutely no doubt that it was Russia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 15 minutes ago, maroonlegions said: If May, or those advising May ,had came out and accused me that i had poisoned her dog i would be demanding evidence . Er -no. If you were accused of poisoning her dog you would already know if you did it or not, so asking for evidence to confirm something you know already is a bit silly. But the courts however - they would rightly want to see evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 6 hours ago, Victorian said: If they were allowed it, they would surely kick the can a long way down the road and eventually conclude that it didn't originate from them or has been reversed engineered by someone else. They aren't going to admit anything under any conceivable circumstance. The UK is right to have narrowed down the possibilities to two. State ordered use or criminally negligent loss of chemical stocks. They can't be allowed to muddy the waters in amy other way. The verification can be done independently by the international chemical weapons inspectorate. And they'd take months and months to conclude it was nothing to do with them as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Russian election shortly as well. Timing couldnt be better eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 1 hour ago, deesidejambo said: I wondered how long it would take for this to turn into Americas fault. That said there is indeed something odd about this - if Putin was behind it why not just get a local mobster hitman in London to shoot them? No poison, no trace back to Russia, no collateral damage etc. Apparently its about £40,000 a hit (ahem, so I'm told). I suspect there is more to this than meets the eye. It wont stop the Russians rearming themselves ready for the invasion of Ukraine though. Ukraine - there’s a country that might be regretting its unilateral nuclear disarmament in return for “promises”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: Ukraine - there’s a country that might be regretting its unilateral nuclear disarmament in return for “promises”. Good vision from Mrs Thatcher on this, in contrast to the 1980s Labour Party: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 1 hour ago, deesidejambo said: I wondered how long it would take for this to turn into Americas fault. That said there is indeed something odd about this - if Putin was behind it why not just get a local mobster hitman in London to shoot them? No poison, no trace back to Russia, no collateral damage etc. Apparently its about £40,000 a hit (ahem, so I'm told). I suspect there is more to this than meets the eye. It wont stop the Russians rearming themselves ready for the invasion of Ukraine though. I heard a Kremlin spokesman insinuate that the nerve agent could have come from Porton Down, which is only 6 miles away and it's the UK who carried out this attack so it could blame it on Russia, this is why I think the use of a nerve agent in Salisbury, so close to the UK's research centre for dealing with things like this isn't a coincidence, the method of attack was chosen because of Salisbury's proximity to Porton Down. A double tap to the back of the head wouldn't have sent out quite the same message not only to Russian exiles but to the British Military, Government and population that this attack has done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 12 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: I heard a Kremlin spokesman insinuate that the nerve agent could have come from Porton Down, which is only 6 miles away and it's the UK who carried out this attack so it could blame it on Russia, this is why I think the use of a nerve agent in Salisbury, so close to the UK's research centre for dealing with things like this isn't a coincidence, the method of attack was chosen because of Salisbury's proximity to Porton Down. A double tap to the back of the head wouldn't have sent out quite the same message not only to Russian exiles but to the British Military, Government and population that this attack has done. But as Craig Murray says, there is an unwritten rule that spy swaps have some sort of diplomatic immunity in espionage circles. There would be no point in it otherwise proceeding ahead if they were just going to get bumped off later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 15 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: I heard a Kremlin spokesman insinuate that the nerve agent could have come from Porton Down, which is only 6 miles away and it's the UK who carried out this attack so it could blame it on Russia, this is why I think the use of a nerve agent in Salisbury, so close to the UK's research centre for dealing with things like this isn't a coincidence, the method of attack was chosen because of Salisbury's proximity to Porton Down. A double tap to the back of the head wouldn't have sent out quite the same message not only to Russian exiles but to the British Military, Government and population that this attack has done. Tough luck on the emigre for living so close to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Just now, Space Mackerel said: But as Craig Murray says, there is an unwritten rule that spy swaps have some sort of diplomatic immunity in espionage circles. There would be no point in it otherwise proceeding ahead if they were just going to get bumped off later on. Not so sure Putin cares about rules that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Just now, Boris said: Not so sure Putin cares about rules that much. Thought he got 18 years in a Russian jail. Why not execute him then? You could argue he was used as a bargaining chip though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 15 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: I heard a Kremlin spokesman insinuate that the nerve agent could have come from Porton Down, which is only 6 miles away and it's the UK who carried out this attack so it could blame it on Russia, this is why I think the use of a nerve agent in Salisbury, so close to the UK's research centre for dealing with things like this isn't a coincidence, the method of attack was chosen because of Salisbury's proximity to Porton Down. A double tap to the back of the head wouldn't have sent out quite the same message not only to Russian exiles but to the British Military, Government and population that this attack has done. Why would the proximity to Porton Down matter? Did a sachet of novichok fall out of a window and then blow 6 miles to Salisbury? Did a member of the Porton Down staff carelessly take a lethal nerve agent out the building and then throw it through Mr Skripal's letterbox in case they got rumbled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: Why would the proximity to Porton Down matter? Did a sachet of novichok fall out of a window and then blow 6 miles to Salisbury? Did a member of the Porton Down staff carelessly take a lethal nerve agent out the building and then throw it through Mr Skripal's letterbox in case they got rumbled? Thought you said only the Russians had it in your last post? Nice to see you thinking outside the box, with a bit of guidance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 “One should not threaten a nuclear power”. Maria Zakharova of Russia’s Foreign Ministry speaking earlier today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future's Maroon Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Are the Ruskies wanting a dash? We'd get hammered! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, The Future's Maroon said: Are the Ruskies wanting a dash? We'd get hammered! Once we get blue passports then the tide will change, just you watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 14 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: “One should not threaten a nuclear power”. Maria Zakharova of Russia’s Foreign Ministry speaking earlier today. No, they shouldn't. Just as well we have them and France and the United States, our NATO allies, also have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim Tall Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 16 minutes ago, The Future's Maroon said: Are the Ruskies wanting a dash? We'd get hammered! We all would, but we’re more than capable of making Russia uninhabitable for a millennia or so. If Mrs Zakharova wishes to be so blunt herself then she should be reminded of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 36 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: Why would the proximity to Porton Down matter? Did a sachet of novichok fall out of a window and then blow 6 miles to Salisbury? Did a member of the Porton Down staff carelessly take a lethal nerve agent out the building and then throw it through Mr Skripal's letterbox in case they got rumbled? Because it's given the Russians the perfect opportunity to come out with the insinuation that it could have been us who did it. A classic Kremlin ploy to deflect, deny and use anything which can muddy the waters, and the sad thing is that there will be plenty of their sympathizers who'll believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 22 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: No, they shouldn't. Just as well we have them and France and the United States, our NATO allies, also have them. Let’s hope they get the wind right when it kicks off for real. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38708823 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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