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Brexit Negotiations

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Jambo-Jimbo

Sturgeon & Khan both saying that if N. Ireland gets a special deal then so should Scotland & London who both voted to stay in the EU as well.

 

The one get-out I could see for the Government is that Scotland & London don't share a land border with an EU country, unlike N. Ireland.

 

Will be interesting how the Government handle this, satisfy the EU and face huge problems at home, or appease everyone at home and upset the EU, talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

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Boris
2 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Sturgeon & Khan both saying that if N. Ireland gets a special deal then so should Scotland & London who both voted to stay in the EU as well.

 

The one get-out I could see for the Government is that Scotland & London don't share a land border with an EU country, unlike N. Ireland.

 

Will be interesting how the Government handle this, satisfy the EU and face huge problems at home, or appease everyone at home and upset the EU, talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

 

It's almost like they hadn't thought the process through...

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Nookie Bear
4 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Sturgeon & Khan both saying that if N. Ireland gets a special deal then so should Scotland & London who both voted to stay in the EU as well.

 

The one get-out I could see for the Government is that Scotland & London don't share a land border with an EU country, unlike N. Ireland.

 

Will be interesting how the Government handle this, satisfy the EU and face huge problems at home, or appease everyone at home and upset the EU, talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

 

Sturgeon can justify a case, but Khan is being ridiculous and just wasting time. In saying that, would Sturgeon have allowed Edinburgh to remain as part of the UK, in the event of a YES vote in the referendum?

 

It was a UK-wide vote.

 

 

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Ibrahim Tall
2 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

It's almost like they hadn't thought the process through...

In fairness(although it pains me) the majority of the government didn't(and probably still don't) want Brexit. To top things off the electorate then voted for more candidates who didn't want Brexit either...

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Jambo-Jimbo
Just now, Boris said:

 

It's almost like they hadn't thought the process through...

 

Maybe it's a situation which was never going to have a satisfactory solution for everyone, something which I've heard several EU officials conceding as being impossible to solve, but the EU don't care about the turmoil that will envelop the British Government.

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Boris
Just now, Ibrahim Tall said:

In fairness(although it pains me) the majority of the government didn't(and probably still don't) want Brexit. To top things off the electorate then voted for more candidates who didn't want Brexit either...

 

Yeah, but they all stated that they would go through with it.  And the characters May has placed in key cabinet posts, Fox, Davis & Johnson, suggests an aggressive approach to it.

 

Unless May is letting the architects of the decision to get on with it and to be shown up for the chumps that I think they are?

 

Regardless of that though, we are negotiating an exit and it is a shambles!

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Boris
1 minute ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Maybe it's a situation which was never going to have a satisfactory solution for everyone, something which I've heard several EU officials conceding as being impossible to solve, but the EU don't care about the turmoil that will envelop the British Government.

 

Or it shows the downright arrogance of the Brexiteers within the Tory government.

 

"-Brexit - yeah! 

 

-How does that affect Northern Ireland?

 

-Northern where?

 

-Ireland.

 

-Um, why would it?

 

-Land border, angle irish agreement etc...

 

-Um..."

 

Ironically Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU, but the DUP are exiteers.  It's crazy.

 

 

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo

The Conservative and unionist party responsible for breaking up the UK? That would be hilarious. 

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Jambo-Jimbo
3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Or it shows the downright arrogance of the Brexiteers within the Tory government.

 

"-Brexit - yeah! 

 

-How does that affect Northern Ireland?

 

-Northern where?

 

-Ireland.

 

-Um, why would it?

 

-Land border, angle irish agreement etc...

 

-Um..."

 

Ironically Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU, but the DUP are exiteers.  It's crazy.

 

 

 

Nothing would surprise me, mind we are talking about Politicians, who seem to live in an alternative universe from the rest of us, half the time.

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Ibrahim Tall
9 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Yeah, but they all stated that they would go through with it.  And the characters May has placed in key cabinet posts, Fox, Davis & Johnson, suggests an aggressive approach to it.

 

Unless May is letting the architects of the decision to get on with it and to be shown up for the chumps that I think they are?

 

Regardless of that though, we are negotiating an exit and it is a shambles!

 

Yep, agree entirely the whole thing is a circus. To be honest think the majority only 'agreed'  to go through with it was opportunism rather than any real belief or motivation. They had the choice to resign like Cameron or lie and sit at the big boys table and picked the latter. Boris is a perfect example.

 

Suprisingly enough that doesn't seem to have ended well...

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doctor jambo

I don't actually think we will leave now

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Jamdub
36 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Yeah, but they all stated that they would go through with it.  And the characters May has placed in key cabinet posts, Fox, Davis & Johnson, suggests an aggressive approach to it.

 

Unless May is letting the architects of the decision to get on with it and to be shown up for the chumps that I think they are?

 

Regardless of that though, we are negotiating an exit and it is a shambles!

 

Don't you just love the Tories, an absolute disaster from the beginning until the ......

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John Findlay
14 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

I don't actually think we will leave now

I think you could be correct here Doc. I see a second referendum on the horizon, even with all the hassle that will bring. If, they cannot find a politician's wiggle a way out of it.

Edited by John Findlay

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John Findlay
2 minutes ago, Jamdub said:

 

Don't you just love the Tories, an absolute disaster from the beginning until the ......

All the other parties would be the same. They are thankful they are not in government at present.

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doctor jambo
3 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I think you could be correct here Doc. I see a second referendum on the horizon, even with all the hassle that will bring. If, they cannot find a politician's wiggle a way out of it.

There needs to be a second referendum- the first was a clusterfuk of lies on both sides

 

No-one knew what they were voting for ..... it was a blind leap

 

Now we still don't know

 

Once it becomes clear what the deal is we will need to vote on it

 

Then we will stay in

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Rab87

So it really was the DUP that scuppered any chance of a deal today.

 

Start of the day - A deal seems close.

 

Arlene Foster calls a press conference saying the deal proposed will not be accepted by the DUP.

 

May then calls Foster 20 minutes later.

 

Then, end of the day, no deal announced by Junker and May.

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Jamdub
23 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

All the other parties would be the same. They are thankful they are not in government at present.

 

They told middle England lies and total pish and they bought it, lets get out of the European market and there will be all this money to spend on the NHS, aye right Boris the tosser, an absolute waste of skin & oxygen along with his other tory chums, these feckers do not live in the real world.

Edited by Jamdub

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John Findlay
1 minute ago, Jamdub said:

 

They told middle England lies and total pish and they bought it, lets get out from these Europeans and there will be all this money to spend on the NHS, aye right Boris the tosser an absolute waste of skin & oxygen along with his other tory chums, these feckers do not live in the real world.

I would say 99% of politicians don't live in the real world.

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Jambo-Jimbo
14 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

All the other parties would be the same. They are thankful they are not in government at present.

 

As much as the Tories have made a pigs ear of things, I genuinely don't believe Labour would have fared much better.

As has been said, this current crop of politicians from all parties are the most talentless I have seen in many a long year.

 

9 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

There needs to be a second referendum- the first was a clusterfuk of lies on both sides

 

No-one knew what they were voting for ..... it was a blind leap

 

Now we still don't know

 

Once it becomes clear what the deal is we will need to vote on it

 

Then we will stay in

 

At what price?

You don't think that if the UK said just forget it we are not leaving now, that things would just return back to the way they were, as if nothing whatsoever had happened.

For one the EU have repeatedly said that the process of article 50 is non-reversible, but lets say there was a way to stop it, don't you think the EU would want their pound of flesh in return, such as joining the Euro and the Schengen Area, would you pay that price for stopping article 50 and retaining EU membership?

 

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Jambo-Jimbo
1 minute ago, John Findlay said:

I would say 99% of politicians don't live in the real world.

 

Just 99%.

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doctor jambo
14 minutes ago, Rab87 said:

So it really was the DUP that scuppered any chance of a deal today.

 

Start of the day - A deal seems close.

 

Arlene Foster calls a press conference saying the deal proposed will not be accepted by the DUP.

 

May then calls Foster 20 minutes later.

 

Then, end of the day, no deal announced by Junker and May.

If you could dilute water, it would still be stronger than Theresa May

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Jamdub

This will be one messy divorce which is going to cost us billions as Brussels rub their hands and name their price, but just one of the perks of being part of the UK.

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Ibrahim Tall
15 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

As much as the Tories have made a pigs ear of things, I genuinely don't believe Labour would have fared much better.

As has been said, this current crop of politicians from all parties are the most talentless I have seen in many a long year.

 

 

At what price?

You don't think that if the UK said just forget it we are not leaving now, that things would just return back to the way they were, as if nothing whatsoever had happened.

For one the EU have repeatedly said that the process of article 50 is non-reversible, but lets say there was a way to stop it, don't you think the EU would want their pound of flesh in return, such as joining the Euro and the Schengen Area, would you pay that price for stopping article 50 and retaining EU membership?

 

No they haven't, Tusk for starters only a few weeks ago stated Brexit could be reversed.

 

Only the Tories have constantly repeated the "Brexit means Brexit" nonsense.

 

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Dannie Boy

No one  will ever be happy no matter what the outcome. 

Edited by Dannie Boy

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John Findlay
24 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Just 99%.

I know what you mean but, it's supposed to be the season of goodwill.

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maroonlegions

Little by little count May and her parasites are being deserted.

 

Her arrogance is beyond the pale now, her misjudgment of the DUP is  one of calamity status.

 

Hopefully it signals her end.

 

  

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The White Cockade

UK paying billions of pounds to get a deal a lot worse than we have at present

 

looks like the Brexiteers should be saying :-

 

:hartley:

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redjambo
3 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

I don't actually think we will leave now

 

Although I would very much like that to be the case, it's too late, imo. For example, the new homes of the European Medicines Agency and European Banking Authority have already been decided. If there had been a groundswell of opinion in the UK, particularly on the streets, I could have seen a potential reverse and second referendum, but the polls have shown not much change in opinions at all, and we have generally accepted the decision without too much public protest.

 

Our only hope was that our "leaving" wouldn't in fact be much of a leaving at all, but that doesn't looks likely either.

 

I have to say, and I will no doubt take pelters for it, that if we could be guaranteed that we would apply for EU membership as part of an independent Scotland then, as an ardent Europhile, I would go against my current political views and vote Yes in a second Scottish Independence referendum. I didn't vote No the last time to stay in a country that would withdraw from the EU. I wanted to be Scottish, British and an EU citizen - if I'm only allowed to choose two out of three then I'll forego being British.

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Victorian

The Tories' hand of no cards whatsoever is being shown up.    Starting to capitulate to the EU negotiating side at every turn and now being pied by the DUP.    The very entity they wined and dined so disgracefully to be able to stagger on in power.

 

The DUP arrangement was grubby enough in the first place.    Now we learn that the billions in public money that was found down the back of Boris Johnson's strait jacket to pay for the services of the DUP has been completely counter-productive.     They seem to have paid off a bunch of mercenaries and ended up with another obstacle to overcome.    Not the grateful junior partner in de facto coalition they had expected.     To max-out the undemocratic quagmire still further,   the DUP are not even representing the majority views and wishes within their own region.    Only their own agenda.

 

The Tories have left the UK's Brexit prospects in peril to ransom by a tiny minority who don't even have the basic morals to represent their own people.

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Geoff Kilpatrick
7 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The Tories' hand of no cards whatsoever is being shown up.    Starting to capitulate to the EU negotiating side at every turn and now being pied by the DUP.    The very entity they wined and dined so disgracefully to be able to stagger on in power.

 

The DUP arrangement was grubby enough in the first place.    Now we learn that the billions in public money that was found down the back of Boris Johnson's strait jacket to pay for the services of the DUP has been completely counter-productive.     They seem to have paid off a bunch of mercenaries and ended up with another obstacle to overcome.    Not the grateful junior partner in de facto coalition they had expected.     To max-out the undemocratic quagmire still further,   the DUP are not even representing the majority views and wishes within their own region.    Only their own agenda.

 

The Tories have left the UK's Brexit prospects in peril to ransom by a tiny minority who don't even have the basic morals to represent their own people.

I think you are deluded. No one in Northern Ireland wants a trade border in the Irish Sea as the price of maintaining an open border with the Republic.

 

As I have said before, this will end in a Norway style deal with the UK remaining in the single market. "Kicking out the Poles" will be the sacrifice as free movement of labour continues. It is finding the political fudge to confirm that in all but name.

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Victorian
5 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I think you are deluded. No one in Northern Ireland wants a trade border in the Irish Sea as the price of maintaining an open border with the Republic.

 

As I have said before, this will end in a Norway style deal with the UK remaining in the single market. "Kicking out the Poles" will be the sacrifice as free movement of labour continues. It is finding the political fudge to confirm that in all but name.

I know that but the majority in NI wanted to remain in the EU.    What they find themselves with is a minority part of the NI political make-up furthering the agenda of a 'hard brexit'.     

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JamboX2
4 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Sturgeon can justify a case, but Khan is being ridiculous and just wasting time. In saying that, would Sturgeon have allowed Edinburgh to remain as part of the UK, in the event of a YES vote in the referendum?

 

It was a UK-wide vote.

 

 

Carwyn Jones has asked for a special deal too now. Apparently Cornwall council... so should we not give up the goat and just accept Single Market and Customs Union? 

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glynnlondon
7 hours ago, Victorian said:

I know that but the majority in NI wanted to remain in the EU.    What they find themselves with is a minority part of the NI political make-up furthering the agenda of a 'hard brexit'.     

Remaining in the UK trump's the EU for NI majority regardless of price.

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jack D and coke
2 hours ago, glynnlondon said:

Remaining in the UK trump's the EU for NI majority regardless of price.

The DUP are doing the right thing regardless of how the country voted. 

If it is a United Kingdom they also must leave the EU. Otherwise this is just going to get silly. 

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JamboX2
11 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

Although I would very much like that to be the case, it's too late, imo. For example, the new homes of the European Medicines Agency and European Banking Authority have already been decided. If there had been a groundswell of opinion in the UK, particularly on the streets, I could have seen a potential reverse and second referendum, but the polls have shown not much change in opinions at all, and we have generally accepted the decision without too much public protest.

 

Our only hope was that our "leaving" wouldn't in fact be much of a leaving at all, but that doesn't looks likely either.

 

I have to say, and I will no doubt take pelters for it, that if we could be guaranteed that we would apply for EU membership as part of an independent Scotland then, as an ardent Europhile, I would go against my current political views and vote Yes in a second Scottish Independence referendum. I didn't vote No the last time to stay in a country that would withdraw from the EU. I wanted to be Scottish, British and an EU citizen - if I'm only allowed to choose two out of three then I'll forego being British.

 

See this is interesting, because the questions of the land border of Ireland/NI will now be a point to square with independence.

 

In 2014 both being in the EU removed any issues over the border and trade.

 

Now you have both being big issues over an independent Scotland. As if a hard Brexit occurs then an independent Scotland in the EU would be bound to the deal the 27 reached with the UK. 

 

Honestly cannot see a good way forward with either option here as I don't think the Westminster parties nor the Scottish parties have really thought anything through here. Both sets are playing to their bases rather than act in the national interest.

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Rab87

Per Robert Peston at ITV - PM ready to agree regulatory alignment for the whole of the UK, Boris and Gove could not stay in the Cabinet if so.

 

I would imagine this is what is to be discussed today.

 

Workable, I do not know.

 

 

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jambo lodge

This whole thing about the DUP has been blown up out of all proportion. WHEN the trade deal is completed between the UK and EU there will have to be an agreement on how border issues will be resolved. It is highly likely a free trade deal will be struck and the need for separate rules for Northern Ireland will just disappear. as goods flow freely between us and Europe. Its all symptomatic of the crazy way the EU demands to do things with the Irish Republic currently being their puppet.

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doctor jambo
31 minutes ago, Rab87 said:

Per Robert Peston at ITV - PM ready to agree regulatory alignment for the whole of the UK, Boris and Gove could not stay in the Cabinet if so.

 

I would imagine this is what is to be discussed today.

 

Workable, I do not know.

 

 

IT is workable

The UK needs to stay in the customs union and the common market

That is the only way forward

May now needs to face the reality here- she cannot survive this process

She will need to fire Gove and Johnson

That will be the end of her

 

If Labour had a moderate leader that could lead us through this process I would vote for them, but they dont

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Jambo-Jimbo

Sky News just reported that their sources within the DUP have told them that they hadn't seen the wording of the offer May was going to put to the EU and only got wind of it after the Republic leaked the draft.

 

Utterly staggering arrogance from May & co if true.

 

 

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John Findlay
19 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

IT is workable

The UK needs to stay in the customs union and the common market

That is the only way forward

May now needs to face the reality here- she cannot survive this process

She will need to fire Gove and Johnson

That will be the end of her

 

If Labour had a moderate leader that could lead us through this process I would vote for them, but they dont

Doc with regard your last sentence. Regardless of who was Labour leader they would be making the same message as the current incompetends.  Sad endorsement of the standard of politicians nowadays. As I suspect they no longer select the best candidates anymore but the ones that tick the perceived correct boxes.

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Boris
2 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Sky News just reported that their sources within the DUP have told them that they hadn't seen the wording of the offer May was going to put to the EU and only got wind of it after the Republic leaked the draft.

 

Utterly staggering arrogance from May & co if true.

 

 

 

Does it surprise you?  Better Together, Union of Equals...

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Jambo-Jimbo
1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Does it surprise you?  Better Together, Union of Equals...

 

No it doesn't surprise me, to be honest.

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doctor jambo
1 minute ago, John Findlay said:

Doc with regard your last sentence. Regardless of who was Labour leader they would be making the same message as the current incompetends.  Sad endorsement of the standard of politicians nowadays. As I suspect they no longer select the best candidates anymore but the ones that tick the perceived correct boxes.

I know this, but I cannot vote labour whilst Corbyn is in situ

 

For me Hard Brexit - whilst a bad situation, would still leave me better off than a soft Brexit + Corbyn fiscal rape

 

What I would be looking for is soft brexit ( don't think Tories can deliver this!)  + moderate labour ( minor tax rises BUT rise in standard of living as consequence of soft brexit)

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CavySlaveJambo

 

3 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

See this is interesting, because the questions of the land border of Ireland/NI will now be a point to square with independence.

 

In 2014 both being in the EU removed any issues over the border and trade.

 

Now you have both being big issues over an independent Scotland. As if a hard Brexit occurs then an independent Scotland in the EU would be bound to the deal the 27 reached with the UK. 

 

Honestly cannot see a good way forward with either option here as I don't think the Westminster parties nor the Scottish parties have really thought anything through here. Both sets are playing to their bases rather than act in the national interest.

 

Yet without full EU membership, a deal which keeps Scotland in the Single Market (EEA and EFTA) would be an advantage in the case of independence. 

 

Edited by CavySlaveJambo

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John Findlay
1 minute ago, doctor jambo said:

I know this, but I cannot vote labour whilst Corbyn is in situ

 

For me Hard Brexit - whilst a bad situation, would still leave me better off than a soft Brexit + Corbyn fiscal rape

 

What I would be looking for is soft brexit ( don't think Tories can deliver this!)  + moderate labour ( minor tax rises BUT rise in standard of living as consequence of soft brexit)

Alas never going to happen doc. Nice idea though.

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redjambo
43 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

If Labour had a moderate leader that could lead us through this process I would vote for them, but they dont

 

This. All the ducks have been misaligned at once during the entire process.

 

. The rise of UKIP and the Tories being in power, hence a EU referendum, at the same time as a refugee crisis in Europe, terrorist bombings, and the "possibility" (there never was one in reality) of Turkish entry into the EU.

 

. The "fall from grace" and massive decrease in support for the pro-European Liberal Democrat Party due to their ill-advised dalliance with the Tories.

 

. The leader of the supposedly pro-European Labour Party being effectively a Brexiteer and thus a woefully inadequate anti-Brexit campaign being waged during the referendum and an equally woeful anti-Brexit resistance after the referendum.

 

For those pro-EU folk in the centre of politics (of which there are many), we're not particularly well represented by overall parties at Westminster at the moment, although we are well represented by individual MPs constrained by their official party positions.

 

 

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doctor jambo

May needs to stop listening to her party, and stop putting her own survival first,

and start listening to the people ( not those who claim to represent the people ironically enough)

 

This SHOULD NOT BE A PARTY POLITICAL THING

 

She could easily form a group with all parties involved - SNP, wales, NI , large chunks of the labour party and so on to form a soft-Brexit steering group

 

This is above Tory internal politics, and it is far greater than her career,

and deserves to be treated as such

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Boris
3 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

May needs to stop listening to her party, and stop putting her own survival first,

and start listening to the people ( not those who claim to represent the people ironically enough)

 

This SHOULD NOT BE A PARTY POLITICAL THING

 

She could easily form a group with all parties involved - SNP, wales, NI , large chunks of the labour party and so on to form a soft-Brexit steering group

 

This is above Tory internal politics, and it is far greater than her career,

and deserves to be treated as such

 

Agree.  And it should have been like this from the get go!  Especially given the last general election result.

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