Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Victorian]

Just now, jake said:

It's currently more concerning for the EU than brexit .

You talk about having a clue yet have no concept of reality.

Can almost hear you shrieking like some mad lesbian .

 

[jake]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

1. The EU is, by and large, a good thing - but it needs urgent reform.

 

2. A bad deal is a bad deal. No deal is a catastrophe. It looks increasingly as though neither will be the outcome though. 

 

3. There is no freedom without economic surplus.

1.brexit is that urgent reform

2.a bad deal is a bad deal.

No deal is just that

3

Sounds like a slogan from George Orwells 1984.

And the need for economic growth and the need to consume is leading us to extinction.

You keep going with these multi national trading blocs there's a good socialist.

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, jake said:

1.brexit is that urgent reform

2.a bad deal is a bad deal.

No deal is just that

3

Sounds like a slogan from George Orwells 1984.

And the need for economic growth and the need to consume is leading us to extinction.

You keep going with these multi national trading blocs there's a good socialist.

 

 

 

1. Brexit is not a reform. It's a whole country setting fire to itself to make some spurious point.

 

2. Correct - albeit May's bad deal is, oh the irony, an unprecedented giveaway of sovereignty. 

 

3. I agree in some respects. It depends entirely on what sort of economy results. But fewer taxes mean less money to spend and even less help for the poor. It's quite bizarre to see you advocating that, but I don't really think you do consequences tbh.

[JyTees]

5 minutes ago, LeftBack said:

I accept that was lazy and although in my opinion he probably does feel his race is superior to that of others, I will retract that and apologies for any offence caused. I think he is an xenophobic buffoon. 

 

Kudos for retracting. Unusual on here.

 

It's been used a lot to describe brexiteers from some quarters, a pretty lame argument given all the possible reasons someone may have voted  in favour of brexit.

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

26 minutes ago, JyTees said:

 

Racist?

 

Racist. Many public statements of his prove it.

[Victorian]

Newsnight about to start.    Odds on a member of the government being put forward?     If they can catch one.

[JyTees]

9 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Racist. Many public statements of his prove it.

 

Go on then...

[Victorian]

They've got one.    This should be a hoot.

[jake]

28 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

1. Brexit is not a reform. It's a whole country setting fire to itself to make some spurious point.

 

2. Correct - albeit May's bad deal is, oh the irony, an unprecedented giveaway of sovereignty. 

 

3. I agree in some respects. It depends entirely on what sort of economy results. But fewer taxes mean less money to spend and even less help for the poor. It's quite bizarre to see you advocating that, but I don't really think you do consequences tbh.

I'm not advocating anything.

[Unknown user]

47 minutes ago, JyTees said:

 

Racist?

 

Oh absolutely. And not even just off the cuff remarks, in his published column too. "Flag-waving piccaninnies" ring a bell? "Watermelon smiles" in the Congo?

 

Racist, elitist buffoon.

[...a bit disco]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Oh absolutely. And not even just off the cuff remarks, in his published column too. "Flag-waving piccaninnies" ring a bell? "Watermelon smiles" in the Congo?

 

Racist, elitist buffoon.

 

And yet, check the reaction when you call Yaxley-Lennon a racist.

 

Mindboggling.

[JyTees]

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Oh absolutely. And not even just off the cuff remarks, in his published column too. "Flag-waving piccaninnies" ring a bell? "Watermelon smiles" in the Congo?

 

Racist, elitist buffoon.

 

Didn't ring a bell, no. Never heard it or read it. When was this?

 

Certainly buffoonery, idiocy and plain ignorance. I'm not sure it makes him a fully fledged racist though. Just a bellend!

[...a bit disco]

"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies."

 

The Foreign Secretary was visiting a Sikh temple in May 2017 when he made comments about ending tariffs on whisky between the UK and India.

But one Sikh voter who was there condemned Mr Johnson for his remarks, asking "How dare you talk about alcohol in a Sikh temple?" The Sikh religion forbids drinking alcohol. 

 

Back when former President Barack Obama advocated for Britain staying in the EU, Mr Johnson hit back calling him "part-Kenyan" with an "ancestral dislike" of Britain.

 

While campaigning to become London mayor in 2008, he was forced to apologise for another article, written six years earlier, in which he referred to black people as “piccaninnies” and talked about “watermelon smiles”.

 

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, JyTees said:

 

Didn't ring a bell, no. Never heard it or read it. When was this?

 

Certainly buffoonery, idiocy and plain ignorance. I'm not sure it makes him a fully fledged racist though. Just a bellend!

 

Well they happened, in black and white. I'll let you program the Googelator yourself. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Smithee

[JyTees]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Well they happened, in black and white. I'll let you program the Googelator yourself. 

 

2002 according to the post above. In my defence, I was still drunk from 1998.

 

A blithering, ignoramus with a habit of putting his foot in his mouth. I don't see any sinister racist behaviour though.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, JyTees said:

 

2002 according to the post above. In my defence, I was still drunk from 1998.

 

A blithering, ignoramus with a habit of putting his foot in his mouth. I don't see any sinister racist behaviour though.

 

How about when BoJo, editor with full control over content, published this James Michie poem in the Spectator?

 

The Scotch - what a verminous race!

Canny, pushy, chippy, they're all over the place.

Battening off us with false bonhomie;

Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.

Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!

Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!

Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran

As provocatively, offensively foreign!

It's time Hadrian's Wall was refortified

To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.

I would go further. The nation

Deserves not merely isolation

But comprehensive extermination.

We must not flinch from a solution.

(I await legal prosecution.)

 

 

 

It was his choice to publish and his alone. Too many people excuse this shit.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

3. I agree in some respects. It depends entirely on what sort of economy results. But fewer taxes mean less money to spend and even less help for the poor. It's quite bizarre to see you advocating that, but I don't really think you do consequences tbh.

 

 

"Freedom is the by-product of economic surplus" was written by Aneurin Bevan in his 1952 book In Place Of Fear.

 

Another couple of quotes of his:

 

"Man must first live before he can live abundantly."

 

"If freedom is to be saved and enlarged, poverty must be ended. There is no other solution."

 

“How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics in the twentieth century.”

 

It's worth reading the book.  Even after 66 years, it's unlikely to lose relevance as long as there are Tories in Britain.

 

[Sidelight]

3 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

 

 

 A United States of Europe does not loom. Not now, not in the future, not ever. 

EU joint Declaration 2016…

The joint declaration says: “We are convinced that new impetus must be given to European integration.

“We believe that more, not less, Europe is needed to respond to the challenges we face.”

 

It says deeper integration “should not be limited to the field of economic and fiscal matters, or to the internal market and to agricultural policy”.

It adds: “It should include all matters pertaining to the European ideal - social and cultural affairs as well as foreign, security and defence policy.

 

“The current moment offers an opportunity to move forward with European political integration, which could lead to a federal union of States.”

 

This may or may not happen. However, it certainly looms…looms...looms.

Edited December 4, 2018 by alfajambo

[shaun.lawson]

23 minutes ago, alfajambo said:

EU joint Declaration 2016…

The joint declaration says: “We are convinced that new impetus must be given to European integration.

“We believe that more, not less, Europe is needed to respond to the challenges we face.”

 

It says deeper integration “should not be limited to the field of economic and fiscal matters, or to the internal market and to agricultural policy”.

It adds: “It should include all matters pertaining to the European ideal - social and cultural affairs as well as foreign, security and defence policy.

 

“The current moment offers an opportunity to move forward with European political integration, which could lead to a federal union of States.”

 

This may or may not happen. However, it certainly looms…looms...looms.

 

Closer integration in many areas? Sure, this is an interdependent world. In which any EU member acting by itself has next to no power and no influence.

 

Superstate? Gimme a break. No chance at all. 

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, ...a bit disco said:

 

And yet, check the reaction when you call Yaxley-Lennon a racist.

 

Mindboggling.

 

With regard to which:

 

 

He should not be a free man.

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Oh absolutely. And not even just off the cuff remarks, in his published column too. "Flag-waving piccaninnies" ring a bell? "Watermelon smiles" in the Congo?

 

Racist, elitist buffoon.

 

And we haven't even mentioned "Muslim women looking like letterboxes". 

[JyTees]

1 hour ago, ...a bit disco said:

 

And yet, check the reaction when you call Yaxley-Lennon a racist.

 

Mindboggling.

 

34 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

With regard to which:

 

 

He should not be a free man.

 

Why the references to TR? I thought we had a thread for him? ?

[JyTees]

37 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

And we haven't even mentioned "Muslim women looking like letterboxes". 

 

Again we appear to be going off on a tangent. A symbol of oppression, subservience, misogyny. Conservative Islam rejecting progressive values, feminism, equality. What does all this have to do with brexiteers?

[doctor jambo]

Either we join a euro superstate, or go it alone.

the eu project takes no account of democracy

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

Either we join a euro superstate, or go it alone.

the eu project takes no account of democracy

And Westminster does?

[shaun.lawson]

Very few Brexiteers will watch this speech - but they should. Because it's absolutely spot on, and deserves as wide an audience as possible.

 

 

[Sidelight]

6 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Either we join a euro superstate, or go it alone.

the eu project takes no account of democracy

That is the truthful reality.

However, Vince Cable was still at it yesterday when he suggested that a new referendum should be determined by posing the question, ‘May’s Deal or ‘All In.

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

Very few Brexiteers will watch this speech - but they should. Because it's absolutely spot on, and deserves as wide an audience as possible.

 

 

As you say her speech which IMO was good deserved a wider audience.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

10 hours ago, JyTees said:

Racist?

What do you think? 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/i-didnt-mean-to-be-racist-claims-boris-6648542.html%3famp

[The Old Tolbooth]

9 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

How about when BoJo, editor with full control over content, published this James Michie poem in the Spectator?

 

The Scotch - what a verminous race!

Canny, pushy, chippy, they're all over the place.

Battening off us with false bonhomie;

Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.

Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!

Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!

Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran

As provocatively, offensively foreign!

It's time Hadrian's Wall was refortified

To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.

I would go further. The nation

Deserves not merely isolation

But comprehensive extermination.

We must not flinch from a solution.

(I await legal prosecution.)

 

 

 

It was his choice to publish and his alone. Too many people excuse this shit.

 

That's actually staggering, can you imagine some high end Scottish politician penning a similar ode about the English and the backlash it would receive? Incredible, but it's okay because it's Boris!

[Victorian]

So,   full legal advice may be forthcoming today.     Would it not be marvelous if this document,  which we were told contained no further relevant detail,   was to actually contain a nasty wee problem or two for the government?

[SE16 3LN]

5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

And Westminster does?

Oh yes it does. You even get to vote for candidates, listen to the debates through media or even live. If you don't like what's on offer you can set up your own party and/or stand for election a UK, national or local level. The European super state has been brought upon us by stealth and in a fair and democratic referendum people were allowed to vote for or against it. How much ****ing democracy do you want?

[SE16 3LN]

29 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

What do you think? 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/i-didnt-mean-to-be-racist-claims-boris-6648542.html%3famp

Boris is a *****, what's your point.

[AlimOzturk]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

So,   full legal advice may be forthcoming today.     Would it not be marvelous if this document,  which we were told contained no further relevant detail,   was to actually contain a nasty wee problem or two for the government?

 

It must be hiding some nasties and I believe it will be regarding the the northern Ireland backstop. 

 

If it didn't hide anything they would have shared the full thing. Could be another interesting day today. 

 

No way does Mays deal get through commons. 

[Victorian]

25 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

It must be hiding some nasties and I believe it will be regarding the the northern Ireland backstop. 

 

If it didn't hide anything they would have shared the full thing. Could be another interesting day today. 

 

No way does Mays deal get through commons. 

 

They were in contempt by not complying with the commons vote to have it published in full.     At the same time they said thd full advice contained nothing of any note.    When found in contempt,   they said they would comply with parliament's will as if they were acting honourably... they had already failed to comply.     The contempt 'charge' should still be active but it will be forgotten about in practice.

 

If there is something in the full advice then parliament has been misled again.    There was a full assurance in that regard.    I really can't imagine much more tolerance from MPs to their routine and arrogant dishonesty.

 

If there is no further relevant detail then they have defied parliament for no good reason.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

15 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

They were in contempt by not complying with the commons vote to have it published in full.     At the same time they said thd full advice contained nothing of any note.    When found in contempt,   they said they would comply with parliament's will as if they were acting honourably... they had already failed to comply.     The contempt 'charge' should still be active but it will be forgotten about in practice.

 

If there is something in the full advice then parliament has been misled again.    There was a full assurance in that regard.    I really can't imagine much more tolerance from MPs to their routine and arrogant dishonesty.

 

If there is no further relevant detail then they have defied parliament for no good reason.

 

 

So Heads they lose, Tails they lose.

Anyone who thinks all this is in the top 100 things done by governments in contempt of, misleading or defying Parliament hasn't read much history.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Pans Jambo]

They care not a jot to even have the respect to listen. 

 

 

[Victorian]

MPs could "steal Brexit from the British people"    Liam Fox.

 

 

Nut mate.   If your government had not made such a total ***** of it,   it would be signed,  sealed and delivered.

 

No Brexit... Tories fault.

[Victorian]

11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

So Heads they lose, Tails they lose.

Anyone who thinks all this is in the top 100 things done by governments in contempt of, misleading or defying Parliament hasn't read much history.

 

Never suggested such a thing.   This government has done worse.

[Section Q]

If Scotland had achieved independence it's unlikely Westminster would have allowed a vote on Brexit. The "operation fear" tactics by Brown/Cameron/Darling etc has come back to bite them. The UK stands to lose a lot and gain nothing by leaving the EU. If Scotland achieves independence following us exiting Europe, and applies successfully to rejoin the EU it will potentially have a brighter future than what's left of the UK. I've never been pro Scottish independence but it just might be the natural next step if Brexit succeeds. The Margaret  Beckett clip post above by shaun is worth watching.

[Cruyff Turn]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

So,   full legal advice may be forthcoming today.     Would it not be marvelous if this document,  which we were told contained no further relevant detail,   was to actually contain a nasty wee problem or two for the government?

If it didn’t, they wouldn’t have tried to hide it in the first place. 

[Cade]

Ian Blackford also made a great speech yesterday, but it dragged out to over half an hour due to other MPs having their say in the middle of it.

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

If it didn’t, they wouldn’t have tried to hide it in the first place. 

 

But they specifically said there was nothing to hide.    Either way,   they're a total shambles or will be caught out.

[JamboX2]

8 hours ago, ri Alban said:

And Westminster does?

 

Actually, Westminster's backbenchers are asserting parliamentary democracy on a weak government atm. So much democracy in action.

[JamboX2]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

Ian Blackford also made a great speech yesterday, but it dragged out to over half an hour due to other MPs having their say in the middle of it.

 

He would need to "give way" to allow interventions. So entirely voluntary on his part.

[Cruyff Turn]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

But they specifically said there was nothing to hide.    Either way,   they're a total shambles or will be caught out.

Clever lawyers with clever wording will have managed to hide something in the small print. As you say, it’ll get picked apart and they’ll get caught. They’ve went to extreme lengths to hide something, no doubt about it. To the extent they’ve been wheeling out the Attorney General in reference to it. 

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Clever lawyers with clever wording will have managed to hide something in the small print. As you say, it’ll get picked apart and they’ll get caught. They’ve went to extreme lengths to hide something, no doubt about it. To the extent they’ve been wheeling out the Attorney General in reference to it. 

 

There will be very little appetite left in the commons to being misled or defied.    They've burned all goodwill.    

[Pans Jambo]

7 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

Very few Brexiteers will watch this speech - but they should. Because it's absolutely spot on, and deserves as wide an audience as possible.

 

 

That was excellent.

[Pans Jambo]

17 minutes ago, Cade said:

Ian Blackford also made a great speech yesterday, but it dragged out to over half an hour due to other MPs having their say in the middle of it.

Here it is:

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

A week or so ago I wondered if May might get her deal by virtue of the fact that it was a compromise and people would want to bring an end to all this.

 

but it’s quite clear that this deal has zero chance. She’ll lose and it’s a waste of time even putting it to a vote.

 

she then has to resign, surely. At which point I assume we get a general election. Chaos.