...a bit disco Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Because "it's not government policy", one would assume. Joanna Cherry QC MPVerified account @joannaccherry 26s27 seconds ago We resume & Richard Keen QC Advocate General for UK Govt confirms to the court that U.K. Govt has no position on whether #Art50 can be unilaterally revoked!!! #CJEU #StopBrexit #PeoplesVote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Des Lynam Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 12 hours ago, Martin_T said: Having had some first hand insight into impact analysis. The impact of 'no deal' on financial services, of which the Edinburgh economy and I suspect many of this forum rely for their own income and prosperity, is predicted to be absolutely devestating. Multiple job losses and the associated knock on effects. From a purely pragmatic point of view, surely no one wants to see that? Could you explain the reasons that helped conclude this analysis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, ...a bit disco said: Because "it's not government policy", one would assume. Joanna Cherry QC MPVerified account @joannaccherry 26s27 seconds ago We resume & Richard Keen QC Advocate General for UK Govt confirms to the court that U.K. Govt has no position on whether #Art50 can be unilaterally revoked!!! #CJEU #StopBrexit #PeoplesVote Lol. We don't care if it can be revoked because it's damaging to our 'strategy'. Furthermore we want to prevent anyone else knowing if it can be revoked. Lunatics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlimOzturk Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Just now, Victorian said: Lol. We don't care if it can be revoked because it's damaging to our 'strategy'. Furthermore we want to prevent anyone else knowing if it can be revoked. Lunatics. Surely a freedom of information request would force them to give us this information one way or the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Joanna Cherry QC MPVerified account @joannaccherry 33s33 seconds ago Counsel for #Commission says if there is a real change of circumstances & an authentic wish to #Remain that would be a valid basis for the UK to revoke #Art50 #CJEU #StopBrexit #PeoplesVote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Just now, AlimOzturk said: Surely a freedom of information request would force them to give us this information one way or the other? No it's currently unknown so the ECJ are being asked to provide an opinion. The government don't want them to. Incredibly, the government wants this information to remain undecided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 minute ago, ...a bit disco said: Joanna Cherry QC MPVerified account @joannaccherry 33s33 seconds ago Counsel for #Commission says if there is a real change of circumstances & an authentic wish to #Remain that would be a valid basis for the UK to revoke #Art50 #CJEU #StopBrexit #PeoplesVote Well there we have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlimOzturk Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, Victorian said: Well there we have it. May has said that we will either leave with a deal or without. So it is irrelevant anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, AlimOzturk said: May has said that we will either leave with a deal or without. So it is irrelevant anyways. Not unless she's basically given no choice, with no appetite from the public or MPs for her current course of action. Which is a possibility. It also gives Remainers some real ammunition to play with. Edited November 27, 2018 by ...a bit disco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 May seems determined that no matter what we're leaving on 29 March. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said: May has said that we will either leave with a deal or without. So it is irrelevant anyways. It might be convenient for it to be irrelevant to THIS government but governments are not permanent. It's very much not irrelevant to parliament, which is permanent. Edited November 27, 2018 by Victorian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 It's hold on to power at all costs and ram the consequences. What a way to run a country. It's all laughably banana republic/tin pot dictatorship stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: It's hold on to power at all costs and ram the consequences. What a way to run a country. It's all laughably banana republic/tin pot dictatorship stuff. Problem being that the BBC and the likes are giving it a level of legitimacy, rather than question it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 7 minutes ago, Victorian said: It might be convenient for it to be irrelevant to THIS government but governments are not permanent. It's very much not irrelevant to parliament, which is permanent. It looks like Parliament will take over this process. But that won't be till January at the earliest given Government gets to put forward new proposals after desl is rejected on 11 December. Time is running out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Philip SimVerified account @BBCPhilipSim 1m1 minute ago Philip Sim Retweeted Tom Gordon Interesting issue; there basically isn't a good position for UKg to take here, politically. They don't want to come out in favour of unilateral revocability, but equally wouldn't want to be seen arguing vs UK sovereignty. Hence them arguing in court against, er, arguing in court Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 EXC: @Keir_Starmer has written to David Lidington warning No10 must publish the legal advice on the Brexit deal shown to cabinet in full, amid concerns Downing Street will attempt to get away with just releasing a summary https://t.co/hFrbJzmgyt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Quick question............. Why are we having a televised debate before the vote in Parliament? Shouldn't they be doing this in Parliament since it will be the MP's that are voting on this not joe public? Just seems pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, ...a bit disco said: EXC: @Keir_Starmer has written to David Lidington warning No10 must publish the legal advice on the Brexit deal shown to cabinet in full, amid concerns Downing Street will attempt to get away with just releasing a summary https://t.co/hFrbJzmgyt The initial referendum was blind and had zero information on it published. Don't see why this should be any different- at least we get a summary. May is attempting to "talk this out"- waste enough time that we will have actually left before any rational discussion can be had/ process can be stopped. The difficulty being is that once we are in transition, the deal the EU has managed is so good, why would they want us back as full members? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Des Lynam Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 May will get her deal voted through Parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 29 minutes ago, Notts1874 said: Quick question............. Why are we having a televised debate before the vote in Parliament? Shouldn't they be doing this in Parliament since it will be the MP's that are voting on this not joe public? Just seems pointless. I suppose it is possible MPs will have some regard to the views of Joe Public especially with the possibility of an early election looming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: The initial referendum was blind and had zero information on it published. Don't see why this should be any different- at least we get a summary. May is attempting to "talk this out"- waste enough time that we will have actually left before any rational discussion can be had/ process can be stopped. The difficulty being is that once we are in transition, the deal the EU has managed is so good, why would they want us back as full members? Did the pro-remain leaflet distributed to every household at a cost to us of £9m contain zero information? If so whose fault was that? Agree wiith your last point ... but then Jeremy is offering to renegotiate the deal before we withdraw on the basis of his 6 tests. And we are supposed to take that seriously I think. Edited November 27, 2018 by Francis Albert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) Not. Bitter. At. All. Edited November 27, 2018 by ...a bit disco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: I suppose it is possible MPs will have some regard to the views of Joe Public especially with the possibility of an early election looming. Still doesn't explain why we need to have a televised debate. This is an issue for parliament and should be debated in parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, Notts1874 said: Still doesn't explain why we need to have a televised debate. This is an issue for parliament and should be debated in parliament. It explains why May wants one. Appeals to the country in advance of a parliamentary vote are nothing new. They predate the TV age by at least a century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 8 minutes ago, Victorian said: Well there we have it. Is that from Counsel for the Commission or the Court? One is an opinion, the other a judgement/ruling. If the former, it is no different from earlier statements by European politicians saying that, in their opinion, the U.K. could abort Art 50. We should also bear in mind that other lawyers for the Commission stated, ‘...that states being allowed to withdraw from or pause the Article 50 process could let them abuse the system and create "endless uncertainty" ‘. That said, Article 50 is silent on withdrawal of notice to leave and, I would suggest, that was no accident and it leaves plenty of latitude for a Court. As things stand, we are told that there is, in the House, no majority for the deal, no majority for no deal and no support for a second referendum. Are they now, therefore, impossible outcomes? As Holmes said, ‘once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth’. Is that ‘Remain’? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 27 minutes ago, Des Lynam said: May will get her deal voted through Parliament. I wouldn't be at all surprised. The certainty about the deal being rejected by some MPs on the news yesterday was reminiscent of the confidence some of the same people were expressing barely a week ago about a vote of no confidence in May which turned out to be the dampest of squibs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: Is that from Counsel for the Commission or the Court? One is an opinion, the other a judgement/ruling. If the former, it is no different from earlier statements by European politicians saying that, in their opinion, the U.K. could abort Art 50. We should also bear in mind that other lawyers for the Commission stated, ‘...that states being allowed to withdraw from or pause the Article 50 process could let them abuse the system and create "endless uncertainty" ‘. That said, Article 50 is silent on withdrawal of notice to leave and, I would suggest, that was no accident and it leaves plenty of latitude for a Court. As things stand, we are told that there is, in the House, no majority for the deal, no majority for no deal and no support for a second referendum. Are they now, therefore, impossible outcomes? As Holmes said, ‘once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth’. Is that ‘Remain’? It was counsel for the commission. Regardless, it's interesting to see. I don't think much will result from this because there isn't much will in parliament to flatly revoke article 50 and completely set aside Brexit. But parliament should be in receipt of all facts regarding what powers are available. Article 50 could possibly be revoked as part of a wider ranging review and then invoked at a later date. A unilateral way of postponing Brexit instead of having to agree it with the EU. That seems to be it's likely purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 On 25/11/2018 at 21:08, shaun.lawson said: That would be the same Daniel Hannan who, prior to the referendum, said "no-one's talking about leaving the single market". And who, like more or less all of his fellow Brexiteers (certainly including you), never had the remotest conception of what it would actually involve. Here's what he actually said in a Channel 4 interview May 2015. Not the "single" comment taken in isolation that (can't even call you a remainer snoreson as you ran away years ago) was miss spoken in one interview when he consistently used the word free in every other quote. Basically it was a smear by some group who called themselves stronger in. If you don't agree with Hannan then fair enough but to use a smear as your evidence is well, so very you snoreson. “First of all, absolutely nobody is suggesting we would give up our position in the free market in Europe, no-one in Brussels, and no-one except some tendentious British pro-Europeans. I’ve never heard anyone here [In Brussels] suggest we wouldn’t have the same sort of deal that Switzerland has, or that the Channel Islands have, if you think that Switzerland’s too exotic. In other words, free movement of goods, and services and capital, living under our own laws. So I don’t see that there would be any impact - in that sense. What there would be, is *far* greater opportunity to sign bi-lateral trade deals with countries outside the EU”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 10 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: I wouldn't be at all surprised. The certainty about the deal being rejected by some MPs on the news yesterday was reminiscent of the confidence some of the same people were expressing barely a week ago about a vote of no confidence in May which turned out to be the dampest of squibs. "Squids" FFS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said: "Squids" FFS! Not sure if you are serious. Giving you the benefit of doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: Not sure if you are serious. Giving you the benefit of doubt. Trying to lighten the moon Frank... Or indeed mood... Edited November 27, 2018 by Konrad von Carstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Counsel for the EU was arguing a case regarding whether or not leaving members should be permitted to unilaterally revoke leaving. Such a pity that isn't the purpose of the question. The Scottish group want to know whether of not the UK can revoke article 50, not as to whether or not it is right or wrong or advantageous or troublesome to any particular stakeholder. A shite argument to add to the government QC's dishonest one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Turn Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 How is that woman still PM after being savaged by all party benches and Trump. It’s absolutely ludicrous. There is no way she’s getting this through Parliament. All she is doing is wasting time and clinging on to power now. The Tory backbenchers are a bunch of shite hawks for not pushing her out the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 11 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said: How is that woman still PM after being savaged by all party benches and Trump. It’s absolutely ludicrous. There is no way she’s getting this through Parliament. All she is doing is wasting time and clinging on to power now. The Tory backbenchers are a bunch of shite hawks for not pushing her out the door. because there is no viable alternative. hard brexit has no support Labour under Corbyn is unappealing to the masses so we are left with a rubbish compromise PM with a rubbish compromise deal Labour get a new leader who can attract moderate votes and the game changes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Turn Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: because there is no viable alternative. hard brexit has no support Labour under Corbyn is unappealing to the masses so we are left with a rubbish compromise PM with a rubbish compromise deal Labour get a new leader who can attract moderate votes and the game changes Theresa May is a lot worse than any viable alternative, she’s achieved the grand total of nothing as PM and she is wasting everyone’s time with a fudged deal which suits no one and won’t get through Parliament. She is a PM in title only at this point but I suspect not for much longer. Once that deal is voted down, she’s a goner. So why waste more time? I agree though, Corbyns useless and nobody even knows where he actually stands on Brexit as he’s sat on the fence the entire time and wouldn’t win a GE. Labour would probably have to bring back David Miliband or some Blairite with vision to become electable at this point. If there is a GE then no doubt it will be a Brexiteer in charge of the Conservative Party and if the Tories win, we’ll be leaving the EU with no deal and Raab, Johnson, Davis or Gove in power with Mogg pulling the strings. It’s either that or the alternative is another Referendum with a clear Leave or Remain option. No grey areas and no negotiations as the EU have already stated, take it or leave it. If Leave wins again, which I suspect it would by a stronger margin, and given what we know now with the GFA and Devolved issues, that decision paves the way for the breakup of the UK. Or, we take the vote of each nation, England and Wales leave, Scotland and N.Ireland remain in the EU, which then would have to include full autonomy for both Nations if the U.K. is to continue. The whole thing is a cluster**** of epic proportions and the status quo can only continue with a remain vote in a 2nd EU Referendum, which would piss off a lot of English people and probably lead to England pushing for it’s own self determination. David Cameron has well and truly opened Pandora’s box by going all in the stay in power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwindonJambo Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 48 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: because there is no viable alternative. hard brexit has no support Labour under Corbyn is unappealing to the masses so we are left with a rubbish compromise PM with a rubbish compromise deal Labour get a new leader who can attract moderate votes and the game changes Good post, particularly your last sentence. If Labour had an even half credible leader they'd have a very good chance of getting in. But they haven't. They have a hard left rabble rousing protest leader who couldn't run a bath and the party is in the grip of the hard left Momentum group, which will ensure the next leader is of a similar ilk. We're back to the days of Militant Tendency of the early 80s, which I hoped we'd never see again. Until that changes I will not touch them with a shitty stick and there are many others who feel the same. Tough times and the shittest politicians all across the board of my lifetime. This deal is drinking your own piss. Hard Brexit is eating your own shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 May sitting at the table crowing about getting to the final deal. Have ye, aye? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 21 minutes ago, Victorian said: May sitting at the table crowing about getting to the final deal. Have ye, aye? She's a ****ing idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Errr... Michael Gove Unleashed As May’s ‘Secret Weapon’ In Bid To Sell Brexit Deal To Tory MPs. https://t.co/UsZGXpt1cY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 On 23/11/2018 at 04:44, ri Alban said: No she would not. Stop telling lies. The SNP have continually campaigned to change the CFP. The Tories are total charlatans on this, otherwise they'd have resigned on mass. Are you still talking to imaginary friends. What are the SNP proposals on CFP? You cannot both be in the EU and not in the CFP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 50 minutes ago, JamboX2 said: What are the SNP proposals on CFP? You cannot both be in the EU and not in the CFP. To remain in the EU. To be a part of the negotiations on the CFP as a member state. To not have those rights given away to appease the hard of thinking types who think this is all about controlling the numbers of brown faces in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 6 hours ago, JamboX2 said: What are the SNP proposals on CFP? You cannot both be in the EU and not in the CFP. We won't be full members of the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 I wonder if there's any mileage in the EFTA route. There seem to be quite a few positives on the face of it. First thing required is to empty the ****ing Tories though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Hammond admits that the UK will be worse off whatever kind of Brexit is agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Cade said: Hammond admits that the UK will be worse off whatever kind of Brexit is agreed. Then... isn't the NATIONAL INTEREST to at least consider halting it, explaining the situation to the country and putting it back out to a vote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlimOzturk Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Victorian said: Then... isn't the NATIONAL INTEREST to at least consider halting it, explaining the situation to the country and putting it back out to a vote? Not how referendums work. Unfortunately can't just keep having them until the results come back the way you want them. As much as I would love this process to be halted It won't happen. Would be political suicide and a big two fingers up to democracy and the people that voted to leave. Edited November 28, 2018 by AlimOzturk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Just now, AlimOzturk said: Not how referendums work. Eh? There's no practical reason to prevent it. Only political reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlimOzturk Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Victorian said: Eh? There's no practical reason to prevent it. Only political reasons. I've edited the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 24 minutes ago, Victorian said: Then... isn't the NATIONAL INTEREST to at least consider halting it, explaining the situation to the country and putting it back out to a vote? What's the national interest got to do with it? It's about making money. Insidious individuals capitalising on chaos while every other poor fecker suffers. I see the auld hoor is peddling her pish around the provinces, like she gives a shiny shite what we think. I also see the BBC is in 'on message' overdrive mode. *****. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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