Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Jambo-Jimbo said: Assuming there is another opportunity, that is. The point is that it is really myopic to seethe at Corbyn over a PV today when the PV campaign fully agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Murray Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: Yes Though they will be under orders to agree it. Great organisation the EU, isn't it?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Victorian said: The point is that it is really myopic to seethe at Corbyn over a PV today when the PV campaign fully agreed. I'm not seething, I'm laughing at the ineffectual useless clown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, Adam Murray said: Do all other EU nations have to be unanimous in their vote to allow an extension? Yes they do. The Italians and Hungarians might make some noise but it's fairly certain that the EU will vote unanimously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Victorian said: They don't have to agree at all but certainly will if May's deal carries. The longer delay is much more uncertain. It will be pied unless it comes with a real, honest plan to proceed. What are you on about? The UK cannot just decide to extend Art 50 without the EU agreeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Cade said: What are you on about? The UK cannot just decide to extend Art 50 without the EU agreeing. Thats what I just said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: I'm not seething, I'm laughing at the ineffectual useless clown. If you're falling into that trap (with many others) then no wonder people like May can get away with what she does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 crossed wires somewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Cade said: crossed wires somewhere No probs. It's Brexit fatigue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Murray Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Victorian said: No probs. It's Brexit fatigue. Not to worry, a possible 4 month (or longer) extension is on the cards ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Adam Murray said: Not to worry, a possible 4 month (or longer) extension is on the cards ? I'm not uncomfortable with a long delay because if it happens then it is certain to result in a fundamental change of course. The EU will enforce that with an iron will. That is the point when the EU will effectively call the shots on our exit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Victorian said: If you're falling into that trap (with many others) then no wonder people like May can get away with what she does. May & the Tories get away with what she/they do because Corbyn (Labour) are so weak and divided to take her & the Tories to task, you must have seen him at PMQ's for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 15 minutes ago, Adam Murray said: Great organisation the EU, isn't it?? Just because Mikey claimed that the EU countries would be "under orders" to accept? You're easily led/influenced, aren't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Jambo-Jimbo said: May & the Tories get away with what she/they do because Corbyn (Labour) are so weak and divided to take her & the Tories to task, you must have seen him at PMQ's for example. He struggles on the basis of impression / image etc. But the important and practical failures are with parliamentary processes and proceedures. Blsming Corbyn is a red herring and only props up May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 9 hours ago, Justin Z said: If a powerless parliament in name only what independent control is being taken back? Can you quit with the non-sequiturs? I've never once brought up Farage's pathetic attendance record. Sorry mate my mistake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Murray Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Victorian said: I'm not uncomfortable with a long delay because if it happens then it is certain to result in a fundamental change of course. The EU will enforce that with an iron will. That is the point when the EU will effectively call the shots on our exit. Is that not precisely what 17.4 million people voted against though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Murray Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, redjambo said: Just because Mikey claimed that the EU countries would be "under orders" to accept? You're easily led/influenced, aren't you? They do have a bit of history for it though, don't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Adam Murray said: Is that not precisely what 17.4 million people voted against though? Thet wanted Brexit. They'll get it. Some wont get the exact flavour they wanted. But I do not remember an a la carte menu de Brexite on the ballot paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Adam Murray said: They do have a bit of history for it though, don't they? Ok, go for it. I'm all ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 That twat Hancock is saying he doesn't want any extension because he wants May's deal to win. There will be an administrative extension if it wins. That's May's stated position. Cabinet Secretary who can't even follow basic events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 This is total guff. What an arsepiece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Murray Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, redjambo said: Ok, go for it. I'm all ears. There's one https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/dec/13/eu-ireland-lisbon-treaty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Victorian said: That twat Hancock is saying he doesn't want any extension because he wants May's deal to win. There will be an administrative extension if it wins. That's May's stated position. Cabinet Secretary who can't even follow basic events. Barclay voted against the motion that he summed up for the Government. Eight Cabinet Ministers and 2/3rds of her MP's also voted against her. Edited March 14, 2019 by Notts1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Notts1874 said: Barclay voted against the motion that he summed up for the Government. Yeah it's incredible times. When you see such things going on, you have to wonder whether or not there's an even deeper, more complex scheme being conducted. Nothing from the government side can be taken at face value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 14 minutes ago, Victorian said: Yeah it's incredible times. When you see such things going on, you have to wonder whether or not there's an even deeper, more complex scheme being conducted. Nothing from the government side can be taken at face value. Barclay will now have to go to Brussels to argue for an extension he voted against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Notts1874 said: Barclay will now have to go to Brussels to argue for an extension he voted against. Barclay is the latest tea boy. The Brexit Secretary position is actually a junior minister position in practice. Brexit spokesman. May is Brexit Secretary and it will be May dealing with the extension at the next EU summit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) C4 news doing a piece about possible Tory leaders. Liz Truss. Nicky Morgan. David Davis. If any of these loons get near no10 then I might move to Greenland. Edited March 14, 2019 by Victorian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 40 minutes ago, Adam Murray said: There's one https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/dec/13/eu-ireland-lisbon-treaty This bloody myth again?! The Irish voted down a change to their constitution. The Lisbon treaty was heavily changed. All the other EU states passed the amended treaty. The Irish then passed the change to their constitution. Ireland then passed the Lisbon treaty. The 2nd referendum was fundamentally different to the 1st one. It was NOT a case of "EU BULLIES IRELAND INTO VOTING THE SAME THING UNTIL IT SAYS YES" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Little quiz. Anybody remember what this defeated amendment was proposing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: May & the Tories get away with what she/they do because Corbyn (Labour) are so weak and divided to take her & the Tories to task, you must have seen him at PMQ's for example. Numbers are against Labour and it's true that Corbyn unites the Tories and DUP in a way a more moderate leader might not. But Tories are much more divided on Europe which is the basic problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 10 minutes ago, Notts1874 said: Little quiz. Anybody remember what this defeated amendment was proposing? Extending art50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 11 minutes ago, Notts1874 said: Little quiz. Anybody remember what this defeated amendment was proposing? This one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Government knows what it is doing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Tories still split Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 If the EU doesn't agree to an Article 50 extension then the UK tumbles out on march 29th with No Deal and will presumably blame the EU forever. For this reason alone, the EU will want to grant an extension so blame for any failure lands back at the UK's feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Cade said: If the EU doesn't agree to an Article 50 extension then the UK tumbles out on march 29th with No Deal and will presumably blame the EU forever. For this reason alone, the EU will want to grant an extension so blame for any failure lands back at the UK's feet. More to the point, no deal is no good for the EU either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 28 minutes ago, Victorian said: Extending art50. Yep. Proves that previously defeated amendments can still come back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 187 Tories voting against that motion is a real concern. That there's a bloc of that size who still insist on self destruction. That motion was a rare piece of helpful movement, but resisting in those numbers does not promise much hope. It can really only be, ERG types aside, due to self interest. Watching their backs. ****ing scumbags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, Cade said: If the EU doesn't agree to an Article 50 extension then the UK tumbles out on march 29th with No Deal and will presumably blame the EU forever. For this reason alone, the EU will want to grant an extension so blame for any failure lands back at the UK's feet. I think they will agree to one but will surely make the UK squirm on the hook for a bit. Conditions attached. Parameters imposed. Effectively taking over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, Cade said: If the EU doesn't agree to an Article 50 extension then the UK tumbles out on march 29th with No Deal and will presumably blame the EU forever. For this reason alone, the EU will want to grant an extension so blame for any failure lands back at the UK's feet. Only if nothing else happens, the UK doesn't need EU approval to revoke article 50 then start it all over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Smithee said: Only if nothing else happens, the UK doesn't need EU approval to revoke article 50 then start it all over again. Might be that full revoking of article 50 is deemed too toxic to touch. It's a measure that would carry serious trouble with the public, many of whom will equate it to a scheme to stop Brexit. It would not surprise me at all if revocation is deemed too hot to handle and avoided. Edited March 14, 2019 by Victorian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Victorian said: Might be that full revoking of article 50 is deemed too toxic to touch. It's a measure that would carry serious trouble with the public, many of whom will equate it to a scheme to stop Brexit. It would not surprise me at all if revocation is deemed too hot to handle and avoided. If done right (no laughing at the back) it could be done I reckon. No reason a vote couldn't be passed on the basis that article 50 is immediately reimplemented as soon as it's been revoked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Smithee said: If done right (no laughing at the back) it could be done I reckon. No reason a vote couldn't be passed on the basis that article 50 is immediately reimplemented as soon as it's been revoked. Revoking may be the easier bit to enact. It may even be an executive power (although I had assumed it was not). But it would surely supercede the current legislation which is that we leave on 29 March. Presumably legislation would be required to trigger it again, meaning more commons votes. It might very well not get through parliament which means Brexit effectively stopped, at least temporarily. Uproar. Edited March 14, 2019 by Victorian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Victorian said: Revoking may be the easier bit to enact. It may even be an executive power (although I had assumed it was not). But it would surely supercede the current legislation which is that we leave on 29 March. Presumably legislation would be required to trigger it again, meaning more commons votes. It might very well not get through parliament which means Brexit effectively stopped, at least temporarily. Uproar. I don't recall legislation being required to enact article 50 the last time, didn't May just action it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Smithee said: I don't recall legislation being required to enact article 50 the last time, didn't May just action it? No it's in law. Legislated for. We would need to know : 1. Is revocation an executive power or requires legislation. 2. Does current legislation allow for art50 to be triggered again as allowed by current legislation or is new legislation required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Seems that revocation is an executive power. Don't know yet if a second triggering of article 50 can be repeated under the same act of parliament or if a new act is required. If a new act then that makes revocation a blind alley for any strategy to revoke and trigger. Making it much harder for May to strategise for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 16 minutes ago, Victorian said: No it's in law. Legislated for. We would need to know : 1. Is revocation an executive power or requires legislation. 2. Does current legislation allow for art50 to be triggered again as allowed by current legislation or is new legislation required. That doesn't mean it needed to be in UK law before we triggered it with the EU, for some reason I've got in mind that we triggered it first then passed the necessary UK laws to action it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Smithee said: That doesn't mean it needed to be in UK law before we triggered it with the EU, for some reason I've got in mind that we triggered it first then passed the necessary UK laws to action it. It doesn't matter. It's still an act of parliament. It required legislation, which I believe came first anyway. But it's a moot point. Anyway, the latest thing I see suggests that the ECJ ruling on unilateral revocation of article 50 does not permit the UK to revoke in bad faith. It does not allow for a scheme to revoke and then trigger in order to get around extending article 50. It only provides for article 50 being revoked in good faith (deciding to remain). Following on, it would then seem irrelevant whether or not it requires a new act of parliament to trigger for a second time, because it would not be allowed in any case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 One possible workaround might be that it would be permitted if mandated again in good faith. Another mandate. Another referendum. Joyous stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Victorian said: It doesn't matter. It's still an act of parliament. It required legislation, which I believe came first anyway. But it's a moot point. Anyway, the latest thing I see suggests that the ECJ ruling on unilateral revocation of article 50 does not permit the UK to revoke in bad faith. It does not allow for a scheme to revoke and then trigger in order to get around extending article 50. It only provides for article 50 being revoked in good faith (deciding to remain). Following on, it would then seem irrelevant whether or not it requires a new act of parliament to trigger for a second time, because it would not be allowed in any case. The point I was getting at was that handing in our notice would surely be enough of a sign that brexit isn't over to those who need that kind of reassurance. But I'm thinking out loud really, I don't remember clearly what happened - when we triggered article 50 I lived on a street that had two coffeeshops on it. Someone asked once before if bad faith has ever been proven against a nation, I'd be interested to find that out myself as an aside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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