bean counter Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Parliamnet asked the people what they wanted The people said leave Parliament must now do as instructed by the people they are elected to serve. If groups want to be in theEU organise a referendum about joining the EU after March 29th I don't think many would vote to re join Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: You would need to add a few dozen more questions. At least. The EU is not there to meet the wishes of the UK electorate so the UK electorates wishes would have to be qualified by what the EU is prepared to accept. The referendum was a terrible idea. Negotiation by referenda is a worse one. I don't think we have much choice. The Government, and Parliament in general, has really mucked this up and it's mainly due to the over-simplicity of the In/Out question and the "Out" result being interpreted by all and sundry to mean whatever the hell they want it to mean. Ten fundamental questions at most - the rest can get sorted out by the civil service and the diplomats. Of course the EU aren't there to meet the wishes of the UK electorate but that's disingenuous. Neither are they there to meet the wishes of the UK Government or the UK Parliament. They are there to do what's best for the EU. But at least with a more nuanced representation of the wishes of the people of the UK, we could get something that pleases the majority of folk, and the EU, rather than something that will at best only please a half of the country and maintain the division that we now see for many years ahead. The referendum was indeed a terrible idea, but if we're going to do it again, which I think we do, we have to do it properly this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bean counter Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 If you have a second referendum and it comes out leave again we are no further forward than we are now If it comes out remain then leave will demand a third referendum Any increase wil questions on the ballot paper will only confuse people lead to more spoilt papers and put people off voting. Any result will be such a mix of opinion we wil be no further forward than we are now. The No deal Brexit is a bit of a misnomer it is in fact a deal on WTO terms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 minute ago, bean counter said: If you have a second referendum and it comes out leave again we are no further forward than we are now If it comes out remain then leave will demand a third referendum Any increase wil questions on the ballot paper will only confuse people lead to more spoilt papers and put people off voting. Any result will be such a mix of opinion we wil be no further forward than we are now. The No deal Brexit is a bit of a misnomer it is in fact a deal on WTO terms And hopefully the EBC televise Britain burning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 minute ago, bean counter said: If you have a second referendum and it comes out leave again we are no further forward than we are now If it comes out remain then leave will demand a third referendum Any increase wil questions on the ballot paper will only confuse people lead to more spoilt papers and put people off voting. Any result will be such a mix of opinion we wil be no further forward than we are now. The No deal Brexit is a bit of a misnomer it is in fact a deal on WTO terms That's exactly why any second referendum has to be done differently with more detailed questions on what sort of relationship we want with the EU. This "confusing" of the people annoys me. It's treating them like imbeciles and giving them an over-simplistic decision that has caused this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gashauskis9 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, bean counter said: If you have a second referendum and it comes out leave again we are no further forward than we are now If it comes out remain then leave will demand a third referendum Any increase wil questions on the ballot paper will only confuse people lead to more spoilt papers and put people off voting. Any result will be such a mix of opinion we wil be no further forward than we are now. The No deal Brexit is a bit of a misnomer it is in fact a deal on WTO terms Aye, but if the 2nd referendum voted remain and the 3rd referendum followed with no new information or insight then wouldn’t remain still win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 minute ago, ri Alban said: And hopefully the EBC televise Britain burning. You are one of the reasons I hardly post on here any more, posting crap like this and spouting your independence views on no matter which thread all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 16 minutes ago, redjambo said: That's exactly why any second referendum has to be done differently with more detailed questions on what sort of relationship we want with the EU. This "confusing" of the people annoys me. It's treating them like imbeciles and giving them an over-simplistic decision that has caused this problem. Its not confusing the people that worries me. It is further confusing Parliament and the Government and the political parties. A simple yes no has thrown them all into utter confusion. What would multiple yes nos, many of them inevitably contradictory, do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 47 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: Sorry, I meant in terms of the public perception of the EU as a club to aspire to belong to. OK sorry I misunderstood. I doubt the EU elections will dramatically change the make up of the EU Parliament. UK elections after this farce may be another matter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: Its not confusing the people that worries me. It is further confusing Parliament and the Government and the political parties. A simple yes no has thrown them all into utter confusion. What would multiple yes nos, many of them inevitably contradictory, do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 50 minutes ago, Cade said: Tory party won't get rid of May because nobody else actually really wants the top job. We saw this when she easily won the in-party confidence vote. Parliament can't get rid of the sitting Government due to infighting in the Labour party. We'll see this later on when they easily win the confidence vote in the House. But the sitting government can't get anything passed in the House due to total incompetence. Funny old world. The Labour Party supposedly infighting has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the government is immovable. Every single member of the house outside of the Tory/DUP pact will vote for the motion but every member in the pact will oppose. It's got nothing to do with anything other than simple arithmetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: Its not confusing the people that worries me. It is further confusing Parliament and the Government and the political parties. A simple yes no has thrown them all into utter confusion. What would multiple yes nos, many of them inevitably contradictory, do? Hopefully make them think more about the situation and its complexities than they appear to be doing at the moment. "Leave means leave". Fair enough, but what does "leave" mean? According to the referendum, it means no longer being a *member* of the European Union, but it does not talk at all about how our future relationship with the EU should be. The problem is that everyone is shouting about what they feel "leave" means, when all we decided was to cease being a member, nothing else. Our aim, as a Parliament and Government, should then have been to find a solution that meant that the wishes of the electorate regarding the nature of our future relationship with the EU would be satisfied as much as possible. The problem is that we don't know these wishes. Let's find out what they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 38 minutes ago, ri Alban said: And hopefully the EBC televise Britain burning. FFS,do you ever take a day off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 The only workable referendum structure us a two stage vote. Stage 1. Remain or leave. Stage 2 (if voting leave). Leave with no deal or leave on May's deal. It could be via one single ballot paper or on separate ballot papers. It could be voluntary to complete stage 2 or a spoiled paper without a stage 2 vote. Nothing else could work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Michael Gove, now there's a puss I wouldn't tire of punching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Billboards in Dover are fantastic right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 7 minutes ago, graygo said: Michael Gove, now there's a puss I wouldn't tire of punching. Destroyed Comrade Corbyn though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, graygo said: Michael Gove, now there's a puss I wouldn't tire of punching. Yeh, but he ripped Corbyn apart though. How anybody could ever vote for Jeremy 'terrorist sympathiser' Corbyn beats me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said: Destroyed Comrade Corbyn though. Not a hard task to be fair, lassie in the studio summed it up for me by asking how bad does it have to be to vote no confidence in a government?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: Yeh, but he ripped Corbyn apart though. How anybody could ever vote for Jeremy 'terrorist sympathiser' Corbyn beats me. It's almost like he is there because the Labour party really don't want to be in power right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: Yeh, but he ripped Corbyn apart though. How anybody could ever vote for Jeremy 'terrorist sympathiser' Corbyn beats me. Corbyn doesn't arm terrorists, the UK government does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, ri Alban said: Corbyn doesn't arm terrorists, the UK government does. Yep Edited January 16, 2019 by JamesM48 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 38 minutes ago, stevie said: FFS,do you ever take a day off? Nope. Could be PPV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: Yeh, but he ripped Corbyn apart though. How anybody could ever vote for Jeremy 'terrorist sympathiser' Corbyn beats me. Oh quite a few would , i would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Insinuating exaggerated shit about Corbyn doesn't really address the matter in hand. Confidence in THIS government. Just typical Tory deflection and quite pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 45 minutes ago, redjambo said: Hopefully make them think more about the situation and its complexities than they appear to be doing at the moment. "Leave means leave". Fair enough, but what does "leave" mean? According to the referendum, it means no longer being a *member* of the European Union, but it does not talk at all about how our future relationship with the EU should be. The problem is that everyone is shouting about what they feel "leave" means, when all we decided was to cease being a member, nothing else. Our aim, as a Parliament and Government, should then have been to find a solution that meant that the wishes of the electorate regarding the nature of our future relationship with the EU would be satisfied as much as possible. The problem is that we don't know these wishes. Let's find out what they are. One thing is for sure. Leave doesn't mean remain. So that simplifies things a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Squeaked it by 19 votes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff the Mince Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 What a bunch of Muppets , it's all a big joke with thier roaring on the benches like thier in a strip club . May continues to slaver shite and keep her head firmly up her ass ! Hopeless ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 46 minutes ago, Victorian said: The only workable referendum structure us a two stage vote. Stage 1. Remain or leave. Stage 2 (if voting leave). Leave with no deal or leave on May's deal. It could be via one single ballot paper or on separate ballot papers. It could be voluntary to complete stage 2 or a spoiled paper without a stage 2 vote. Nothing else could work. We have already had stage 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Francis Albert said: One thing is for sure. Leave doesn't mean remain. So that simplifies things a bit. Yup. We will no longer be members of the EU - the people decided that. Now we've just got to work out what our future relationship with the EU will be, and unfortunately no-one agrees on that. In retrospect, we should have done all the horse-trading first, sorted out a deal that was acceptable to the whole of parliament (including both the withdrawal and the future relationship), agreed it with the EU, in principle of course, and then invoked Article 50. But that would have been too sensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 hours ago, redjambo said: If they had all been in parliament for the customs union vote in July, and voted the way they would have been expected to, the vote would have been won 308-307 and the whole path of Brexit would have been altered as a result. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44864496 Deal won by Labour mainly. Tories incapable of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Cade said: Squeaked it by 19 votes Be interesting to see if supported by anyone else. Though some Labour MPs might have been excused - pregnant MP for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, Victorian said: Insinuating exaggerated shit about Corbyn doesn't really address the matter in hand. Confidence in THIS government. Just typical Tory deflection and quite pathetic. Gove is a prick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 10 flat earthers tip the scales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 21 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: Yeh, but he ripped Corbyn apart though. How anybody could ever vote for Jeremy 'terrorist sympathiser' Corbyn beats me. Interesting that 9/11 was mostly a Saudi Arabian operation. Our biggest ally in the region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 20 minutes ago, graygo said: Not a hard task to be fair, lassie in the studio summed it up for me by asking how bad does it have to be to vote no confidence in a government?. Those voting no confidence are doing it for purely political reasons. Corbyn and his marxists have been putting party ahead of country all along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Just now, Mikey1874 said: Interesting that 9/11 was mostly a Saudi Arabian operation. Our biggest ally in the region. And, what has that got to do with Corbyn sharing a platform with Sinn Fein and being pictured with a wreath at the grave of terrorists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) So...after winning vote May got up and offered talks with party leaders. (A surprise as the Tories been dissing Corbyn all day). Corbyn then said May has to say No Deal cannot happen first. Ian Blackford was next saying No Deal must be avoided and also referendum must be an option. Both saying May must confirm these before there will be talks. Liberals said similar. May will set out proposals on Monday. Edited January 16, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, redjambo said: Yup. We will no longer be members of the EU - the people decided that. Now we've just got to work out what our future relationship with the EU will be, and unfortunately no-one agrees on that. In retrospect, we should have done all the horse-trading first, sorted out a deal that was acceptable to the whole of parliament (including both the withdrawal and the future relationship), agreed it with the EU, in principle of course, and then invoked Article 50. But that would have been too sensible. The EU wouldn't start negotiations before we invoked Article 50. Even then the EU would not negotiate until we had agreed to their preconditions - the size of the divorce bill and the Northern Ireland backstop. And even then they would negotiate only on the transition period and not on any binding agreement on the future trading relationship until after the terms of the transition period were agreed. The UK's handing of the process has been an utter shambles. But the EU was never about to permit a smooth path to leaving on the lines you suggest. Pour decourager les autres as they say! Edited January 16, 2019 by Francis Albert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: And, what has that got to do with Corbyn sharing a platform with Sinn Fein and being pictured with a wreath at the grave of terrorists? What has that got to do with anything. Sinn Fein are in government. Martin McGuinnes met the Queen. Is the Queen a terrorist supporter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Just now, Mikey1874 said: What has that got to do with anything. Sinn Fein are in government. Martin McGuinnes met the Queen. Is the Queen a terrorist supporter? We could go round in circles here, so I'm out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Just now, Mikey1874 said: So...after winning vote May got up and offered talks with party leaders. (A surprise as the Tories been dissing Corbyn all day). Corbyn then said May has to say No Deal cannot happen first. Ian Blackford was next saying No Deal must be avoided and also referendum must be am option. Both saying May must confirm these before there will be talks. Liberals said similar. May will set out proposals on Monday. I suppose a get out for her would be say she had to " give" in to Labour and SNP demands ( probably secretly wants this anyway) but it will look good for her and her party that they have " listened" and " compromised" with other parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: The EU wouldn't start negotiations before we invoked Article 50. Even then the EU would not negotiate until we had agree preconditions - the size of the divorce bill and the Northern Ireland backstop. And even then they would negotiate only on the transition period and not on any binding agreement on the future trading relationship until after the terms of the transition period were agreed. The UK's handing of the process has been an utter shambles. But the EU was never about to permit a smooth path to leaving on the lines you suggest. Pour decourager les autres as they say! " Pour decourager les autres" ....Get U !!! " to discourage others ! Get me ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjcc Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: We could go round in circles here, so I'm out. You need to follow the long convoluted process and pass a vote on this thread before leaving I’m afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 minute ago, gjcc said: You need to follow the long convoluted process and pass a vote on this thread before leaving I’m afraid. Secret ballot has just been passed with a majority of 1. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: What has that got to do with anything. Sinn Fein are in government. Martin McGuinnes met the Queen. Is the Queen a terrorist supporter? It's no wonder the Tories take the utter piss out of the country. It's so manifestly easy to fool people. Hook line and sinker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 18 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: So...after winning vote May got up and offered talks with party leaders. (A surprise as the Tories been dissing Corbyn all day). Corbyn then said May has to say No Deal cannot happen first. Ian Blackford was next saying No Deal must be avoided and also referendum must be an option. Both saying May must confirm these before there will be talks. Liberals said similar. May will set out proposals on Monday. After 2 and a half years she then offers talks. No thanks Hen, you're not passing the buck to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: The EU wouldn't start negotiations before we invoked Article 50. Even then the EU would not negotiate until we had agreed to their preconditions - the size of the divorce bill and the Northern Ireland backstop. And even then they would negotiate only on the transition period and not on any binding agreement on the future trading relationship until after the terms of the transition period were agreed. The UK's handing of the process has been an utter shambles. But the EU was never about to permit a smooth path to leaving on the lines you suggest. Pour decourager les autres as they say! We may disagree on some things, FA, but not on this. I don't envy the EU in the slightest. They were left in a very difficult position from the get-go. They had to let us leave and create a new relationship with us, but still provide a deterrence for other countries to do the same in the future. In particular, they couldn't let us have similar benefits to member EU countries without maintaining the same responsibilities, including paying for those benefits (although the exact details of how this will be done are still to be negotiated). In essence they had to find a way of "punishing" us for leaving but not to the detriment of future UK-EU relations or the stability of the EU itself. Perhaps the acknowledgement of this fact is why May accepted the divorce bill so readily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 12 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: Secret ballot has just been passed with a majority of 1. ? Who won? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gashauskis9 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Corbyn really is an arse. I’m pro remain but even I appreciate the fact that we can’t take no deal off the table until further discussions have taken place cross parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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