Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 Oh for heavens sake your wrong 

 

Mr Barnier said the legal text marked a "decisive step" but added that it was "not the end of the road".
The key aspects of the agreement announced in Brussels are:
■   The transitional period will last from Brexit day on 29 March 2019 to 31 December 2020
■   EU citizens arriving in the UK between these two dates will enjoy the same rights and guarantees as those who arrive before Brexit. The same will apply to UK expats on the continent
■   The UK will be able to negotiate, sign and ratify its own trade deals during the transition period
■   The UK will still be party to existing EU trade deals with other countries
■   The UK's share of fishing catch will be guaranteed during transition but UK will effectively remain part of the Common Fisheries Policy, yet without a direct say in its rules, until the end of 2020
■   Northern Ireland will effectively stay in parts of the single market and the customs union in the absence of other solutions to avoid a hard border with the Republic of Ireland

 

See the bit I've highlighted?  What legal text are you talking about?  What was the "agreement announced in Brussels"?

[Don Dan]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

No they won't.  Parliament rejected the deal.  The text is meaningless.

 

My point was very clear to the other poster. May said quite clearly that EU citizens are welcome to say. It was in response to the clame that it was never said. The UK government have always been clear unlike the EU who dragged their heals on acknowledging that the rights of expats would be honoured.

[JudyJudyJudy]

25 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Wonder which total arsepieces are on Newsnight.      

Its doing its usual pro Tory shit. Totally deflecting away from the vote tonight and going hard at Labour about what is their plan. 

[Ulysses]

4 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

They'd have to take the oath of allegiance first. Kiss goodbye to their kneecaps after that.

 

Yep, never going to happen.

[Don Dan]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

See the bit I've highlighted?  What legal text are you talking about?  What was the "agreement announced in Brussels"?

 

The legal text Barniers talking about. Go and look them up.

[Ulysses]

 

Just now, Dannie Boy said:

 

My point was very clear to the other poster. May said quite clearly that EU citizens are welcome to say. It was in response to the clame that it was never said. The UK government have always been clear unlike the EU who dragged their heals on acknowledging that the rights of expats would be honoured.

 

 

I refer you to my earlier question:

 

 

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

See the bit I've highlighted?  What legal text are you talking about?  What was the "agreement announced in Brussels"?

[Ulysses]

Just now, Dannie Boy said:

 

The legal text Barniers talking about. Go and look them up.

 

What legal text is Barnier talking about?

 

Do you actually know?

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

What legal text is Barnier talking about?

 

Do you actually know?

Aye hes talking B***s 

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

May said quite clearly that EU citizens are welcome to say. It was in response to the clame that it was never said. The UK government have always been clear

 

 

All of that is fake news.  That's what was said to you, and your government repeatedly failed to explain to our negotiators what that meant until the Withdrawal Agreement was negotiated.  And now that Parliament has rejected that agreement, everyone's back to square one.

 

In the real world, residency in the UK for foreign citizens is a matter of law, not political speeches.

[Don Dan]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

What legal text is Barnier talking about?

 

Do you actually know?

 

Not word for word but the legal text was in the agreement which as we both agree was rejected tonight. However that does not take away from the fact that the Government said EU citizens are more that welcome to stay and that text (what ever  the wording) will be in any other deal I would suggest. Why wouldn’t it.  

[Francis Albert]

44 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

If it's OK with you, I'll just take issue with the bit where he refers to tinpot British politicians as " tin pot Irish politicians".

Under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, aren't they both? If tinpot is indeed what they are.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Don Dan]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

All of that is fake news.  That's what was said to you, and your government repeatedly failed to explain to our negotiators what that meant until the Withdrawal Agreement was negotiated.  And now that Parliament has rejected that agreement, everyone's back to square one.

 

In the real world, residency in the UK for foreign citizens is a matter of law, not political speeches.

 

Yes and it will be law when and if there is a deal. 

[Don Dan]

https://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/services/your-rights/Brexit_en

 

 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/joint_report.pdf

 

https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families

Edited January 15, 2019 by Dannie Boy

[Victorian]

6 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Its doing its usual pro Tory shit. Totally deflecting away from the vote tonight and going hard at Labour about what is their plan. 

 

Pretty much.   Nothing at all yet from SNP, Plaid, LD or Green.    We've had JRM, BJ, Matt Hancock, David Davis and now Nicky Morgan.   

[luckydug]

37 minutes ago, Sarah O said:

"Wee Nippy", "Jimmy Krankie"... I see the MENSA lot have joined the debate...

Jimmy Krankie supported 'Better Together' in the referendum.

 

[jake]

1 minute ago, luckydug said:

Jimmy Krankie supported 'Better Together' in the referendum.

 

Duck off ....really ?

???

[Francis Albert]

5 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

All of that is fake news.  That's what was said to you, and your government repeatedly failed to explain to our negotiators what that meant until the Withdrawal Agreement was negotiated.  And now that Parliament has rejected that agreement, everyone's back to square one.

 

In the real world, residency in the UK for foreign citizens is a matter of law, not political speeches.

From day one after the Brexit vote the UK government said provided UK citizens in the EU had reciprocal rights then EU citizens resident in the UK could stay. Of course at the end of the day it is  matter of law but the UK position was clear, the EU position a bit less so.

[luckydug]

2 minutes ago, jake said:

Duck off ....really ?

???

Seriously it's true. The both of them in fact.

I always find it amusing when the brain dead refer to our FM as Jimmy Krankie.?

[Don Dan]

14 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

All of that is fake news.  That's what was said to you, and your government repeatedly failed to explain to our negotiators what that meant until the Withdrawal Agreement was negotiated.  And now that Parliament has rejected that agreement, everyone's back to square one.

 

In the real world, residency in the UK for foreign citizens is a matter of law, not political speeches.

 

 

Ive posted 3 links which clearly show that EU will have the right to stay just as they have now.

[NANOJAMBO]

8 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

But that's not what the proponents of a second vote want.

What they want is to vote on either May's deal or to remain.

Far from deciding what way the UK leaves, they want to find ways for the UK to stay.

That's the problem with a second referendum, because one of the options which the advocates of a second vote want to be put on the ballot paper, is a question which has already been asked and that option lost first time around.

I don't know what you mean by "they". You seem to believe it's a way of killing off quitting the EU. There's no reason for this to be the case. 

I'll go back to what I said previously - the govt puts the options on the ballot paper (whatever they might be). People can make an informed opinion - personally , I voted to stay but will  consider any option that doesn't make me worse off. Bizarrely we have May's deal which NO ONE wants but that is preferable to asking the people to decide? 

Seems to be  a moot point anyway now that Labour have effectively said tonight there will be no 2nd referendum because there is no time to organize one. 

 

So, on we go, with May's hand apparently strengthened by getting wiped out tonight because this will force the EU to the negotiating table. 

[jake]

1 minute ago, luckydug said:

Seriously it's true. The both of them in fact.

I always find it amusing when the brain dead refer to our FM as Jimmy Krankie.?

It's piss poor patter that's for sure.

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Pretty much.   Nothing at all yet from SNP, Plaid, LD or Green.    We've had JRM, BJ, Matt Hancock, David Davis and now Nicky Morgan.   

For some reason I quite like Nicky Morgan . She seems quite sincere.  I cant stand any BBC coverage of any politics but thought id watch it tonight, I note Im not missing much. 

[DETTY29]

1 hour ago, skinnybob72 said:

The people voted for Brexit but the majority of MPs don't want it and are dragging their heels at every turn. 

 

There is mention of having a second referendum (just like Wee Nippy hankering after a second Independence vote here) over Brexit. 

 

When did democracy change so that if our elected 'leaders' don't like the result of the people's vote we just have another and hope they get the result they want?

 

 

UK constitution and law of the land, most likely.

 

What 52% of the population who voted, voted to for.

 

[Pans Jambo]

13 minutes ago, luckydug said:

Jimmy Krankie supported 'Better Together' in the referendum.

 

They look like a right pair of the white glove wearing brigade right enough!!!

[Ulysses]

5 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

 

Ive posted 3 links which clearly show that EU will have the right to stay just as they have now.

 

If the deal is passed.  It was rejected.

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

For some reason I quite like Nicky Morgan . She seems quite sincere.  I cant stand any BBC coverage of any politics but thought id watch it tonight, I note Im not missing much. 

 

Nicky Morgan is the very definition of insincerity.     Her position of the day is directly influenced by the prevailing mood of others whilst being ultra careful to appeal loyal and supportive of the PM.      Michael Gove in a dress.

[Don Dan]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

If the deal is passed.  It was rejected.

 

The third link I posted is the instructions front the UK Government what to do after the 29th March 2019 deal or no deal. 

https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families

[NANOJAMBO]

14 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

From day one after the Brexit vote the UK government said provided UK citizens in the EU had reciprocal rights then EU citizens resident in the UK could stay. Of course at the end of the day it is  matter of law but the UK position was clear, the EU position a bit less so.

A main plank of of the quit campaign was E European dole scroungers coming here. Quitters voted to leave because of the inward levels of EU immigration but don't scream out when the govt decides those very immigrants  can stay any way. Utterly bizarre. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

Nicky Morgan is the very definition of insincerity.     Her position of the day is directly influenced by the prevailing mood of others whilst being ultra careful to appeal loyal and supportive of the PM.      Michael Gove in a dress.

WE could say that about most politicians. I probably meant she more eager and enthusiastic than sincere. 

[Ulysses]

20 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

Yes and it will be law when and if there is a deal. 

 

I think you've finally gotten around to the point I made to you in the first place, which is that the British government made statements that they wouldn't stand over, and there was no concrete evidence of a legal commitment on the status of EU citizens in the UK until the text of the Withdrawal Agreement was published.

 

Now that the deal has been rejected, we're back to square one.  EU citizens (except for a small number of countries) have no legal guarantee of residency status in the UK after Brexit.

 

A number of countries are taking legislative steps to give UK citizens already resident some measure of residency rights in the event of no deal.  Until the UK government and Parliament does the same, there is no legal basis for saying that EU citizens are "welcome".

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Britain would be dead. Nae luck, but you keep voting for the Saville party.

[Shanks said no]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

If it's OK with you, I'll just take issue with the bit where he refers to tinpot British politicians as " tin pot Irish politicians".

Uly you are more switched on than most about these things, are there any circumstances at all that the seven Sinn Féin MPs would or could attend Westminster to vote? 

 

EDIT sorry see your earlier answer

Edited January 15, 2019 by The Frenchman Returns

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

The third link I posted is the instructions front the UK Government what to do after the 29th March 2019 deal or no deal. 

https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families

 

 

I'll have to stand corrected on that one, in fairness, though up to a point.  The scheme has several conditions in it that make it less than "welcoming", and of course it's a scheme for residents rather than EU27 citizens -  but until we see differently we have to presume that schemes in EU27 countries will be similar. 

 

And, also in fairness, it was published a couple of months before the Withdrawal Agreement, so I stand corrected on the length of time we were waiting. 

 

I'm not conceding the others - after tonight's vote, right now the only way to make the Withdrawal Agreement useful is to make sure to print it on soft paper. 

[Ulysses]

6 minutes ago, The Frenchman Returns said:

Uly you are more switched on than most about these things...

 

 

Not everything, though. 

[Shanks said no]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Not everything, though. 

Cheers ?

 

Just read Paul Maskey, Sinn Féin MP for Belfast West, in a Guardian article explaining why they won't attend and the absenteeism stance, understand a bit more now.

[Ulysses]

[DETTY29]

40 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

A main plank of of the quit campaign was E European dole scroungers coming here. Quitters voted to leave because of the inward levels of EU immigration but don't scream out when the govt decides those very immigrants  can stay any way. Utterly bizarre. 

At £15bn pa (net after benefits / healthcare payouts - all EU citizens mind) income generation to the economy, even the government isn't that stupid.

 

Well apart from their proposed min £30k confirmed starting salary role post 2021.  Who'll wipe our arses now when we are in care homes.

 

It's ok, white Commonwealth nationals will be busting a gut to take up all these minimum / living wage roles on a long term basis.

 

NB - very simplistic view point, half kidding.

Edited January 16, 2019 by DETTY29

[Ulysses]

4 minutes ago, The Frenchman Returns said:

Cheers ?

 

Just read Paul Maskey, Sinn Féin MP for Belfast West, in a Guardian article explaining why they won't attend and the absenteeism stance, understand a bit more now.

 

For years, they also had a policy not to take their seats in Parliament here if elected - they regarded the Irish State as "incomplete" and therefore invalid.  But they abandoned that stance in (I think) 1987 and have elected representatives in Parliament since 1997.

 

Leaving aside their "constitutional" issues, there is also a more mundane political issue for Sinn Féin.  If they sit in the House of Commons and vote, they see themselves as becoming part of the problem.  In other words, if Parliament does something with Brexit that damages this island, they believe they would be blamed - and maybe would be to blame - even if it was something they voted against.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, jake said:

I know .

It's clever.

It's like a cooling off clause.

 

I off course see it's sinister side.

 

 

It's only got sinister potential if a government misuses it, IMO.  If a government used repeated cancellations and reactivations to get around a decision it didn't like that would be an abuse of EU law.  On the other hand it means that if a country does invoke Article 50 and then changes its mind, the rest of the EU can't try to penalise them for their action - which I think is a good thing.

[Shanks said no]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

For years, they also had a policy not to take their seats in Parliament here if elected - they regarded the Irish State as "incomplete" and therefore invalid.  But they abandoned that stance in (I think) 1987 and have elected representatives in Parliament since 1997.

 

Leaving aside their "constitutional" issues, there is also a more mundane political issue for Sinn Féin.  If they sit in the House of Commons and vote, they see themselves as becoming part of the problem.  In other words, if Parliament does something with Brexit that damages this island, they believe they would be blamed - and maybe would be to blame - even if it was something they voted against.

Aye, to quote Paul Maskey, "In 2017, I and other MPs were elected on a mandate to actively abstain from Westminster. We intend to honour that mandate."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/06/sinn-fein-mp-british-parliament-irish-republicans-brexit

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

Aye hes talking B***s 

 

As it turns out, that's only the case with the Barnier stuff.  In fairness his point about the EU settlement scheme was correct.

[Ulysses]

Just now, The Frenchman Returns said:

Aye, to quote Paul Maskey, "In 2017, I and other MPs were elected on a mandate to actively abstain from Westminster. We intend to honour that mandate."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/06/sinn-fein-mp-british-parliament-irish-republicans-brexit

 

That's it, in a nutshell.  The rest of us used to see them as "professional abstentionists", just being against everything and not taking part in the political process and actually trying to do something.  But since they started to engage in politics here, and in particular since the dissolution of the PIRA in 2007, that just isn't the case any more.  They are very active and engaged right across the spectrum of policy issues here and in NI, but they won't do that in London. 

 

 

 

 

P.S. I'm loving the hat. 

[The Mighty Thor]

44 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Do people think the Norway type model would pass through the house?

 

 

depends how emboldened the ERG group are at the time of the vote. They want a no deal hard brexit as it will financially benefit them in the short and long term and if they think that'll fly that's what they strong arm the gammon into voting for.

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

depends how emboldened the ERG group are at the time of the vote. They want a no deal hard brexit as it will financially benefit them in the short and long term and if they think that'll fly that's what they strong arm the gammon into voting for.

According to that prick who owns Wetherspoons, all countries will deliver goods to England for free. Well not really, but that's how these twats with too much airtime, try to bam folk up 

[Victorian]

It is quite funny though that the government starts crying about how nobody else has a plan and that the house has shown no majority for an alternative... after like... you know... the government tried to exclude parliament from the process,   operates on a Tory Party first basis and is led by a PM who never listens to anyone.    

[Pans Jambo]

6 minutes ago, Victorian said:

It is quite funny though that the government starts crying about how nobody else has a plan and that the house has shown no majority for an alternative... after like... you know... the government tried to exclude parliament from the process,   operates on a Tory Party first basis and is led by a PM who never listens to anyone.    

Nailed it!

Edit: The PM doesnt even listen to the own Tory cabinet seeing as half of them quit over this very issue. Seems the vote last night SHOULD have gave her a bit of a wake up call in that regard. I dont hold out any hope there TBH. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Pans Jambo

[Sarah O]

8 hours ago, luckydug said:

Jimmy Krankie supported 'Better Together' in the referendum.

 

Very true. 

 

The name calling is absolutely tragic and sums up the mentality of some people. Probably the type of person that has a flag in their Twitter handle. 

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, Victorian said:

It is quite funny though that the government starts crying about how nobody else has a plan and that the house has shown no majority for an alternative... after like... you know... the government tried to exclude parliament from the process,   operates on a Tory Party first basis and is led by a PM who never listens to anyone.    

To be fair she's only had the opportunity to behave like this due to the rank incompetence of the party opposite her. Labour make her and what is the weakest government in living memory look proficient.

 

I think Corbyn has made a huge mistake bringing his no confidence vote to the house today too. I think it distracts and galvanises a Tory party, which to me looks like it's on the brink of all out civil war. He'd have been better letting her stew on coming back to the house on Monday with the same deal, taking another kicking and then looked to go for her after that as the clock ticks and the pressure grows.

 

I suppose it sums him and the Labour party up. He's not landed a blow on her in nearly 3 years and he won't do today either.

[Pans Jambo]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

To be fair she's only had the opportunity to behave like this due to the rank incompetence of the party opposite her. Labour make her and what is the weakest government in living memory look proficient.

 

I think Corbyn has made a huge mistake bringing his no confidence vote to the house today too. I think it distracts and galvanises a Tory party, which to me looks like it's on the brink of all out civil war. He'd have been better letting her stew on coming back to the house on Monday with the same deal, taking another kicking and then looked to go for her after that as the clock ticks and the pressure grows.

 

I suppose it sums him and the Labour party up. He's not landed a blow on her in nearly 3 years and he won't do today either.

Sadly I think you could be right. 

Corbyn is no future PM & everyone (except him) sees it. 

[Jamboelite]

48 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

To be fair she's only had the opportunity to behave like this due to the rank incompetence of the party opposite her. Labour make her and what is the weakest government in living memory look proficient.

 

I think Corbyn has made a huge mistake bringing his no confidence vote to the house today too. I think it distracts and galvanises a Tory party, which to me looks like it's on the brink of all out civil war. He'd have been better letting her stew on coming back to the house on Monday with the same deal, taking another kicking and then looked to go for her after that as the clock ticks and the pressure grows.

 

I suppose it sums him and the Labour party up. He's not landed a blow on her in nearly 3 years and he won't do today either.

He took the bait of being called out by May last night to put up or shut up when she knew she had the DUP and the rest agreeing to back her.

 

Corbyn is weak and has no idea what he is doing.