Barcelona

[ZeroHour]

The old testament is full of genocide, exterminations and wanton destruction of the populace.

Not all Muslims believe that the Koran is an absolute, in the same way that only fundamentalist Christians believe the bible is literal- that god hates gays etc

I have not read the Koran, but I have read the Bible and its full of utter tripe- child sacrifice to keep god happy and so on and so forth.

My sons best mate is a Muslim, from Pakistan- and several kids at school have called him a terrorist in the last year and one came out with "all Muslims are terrorists"

Its repugnant

The old testament is a collection books from various authors, based mainly on ancient Hebrew texts. And, oh yeah, nobody reads it. To suggest it's actively creating White Supremacists in the way the Quran is churning out Jihadist, you know is an outright lie.

 

All Muslims are taught the Quran is the direct, last and final, perfectly recorded, word of god. ahmadiyya muslims seem to be the exception, they believe in other, more recent prophets, and subsequently they are violently persecuted on the basis of Blasphemy, from Pakistan to Shawlands, Glasgow.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Terrorism or the threat of violence more generally works though. Madrid 2004 was the classic example. The IRA sitting in parliament is another. France's lack of desire to enforce the veil is another.

 

Does it though?

 

People still use the train, people still use the metro, people still fly in planes, people still walk down the street and people still travel to destinations such as Paris, Madrid, London, Brussels, Berlin & Barcelona to name but a few. 

 

If terrorism or the threat of violence worked then people wouldn't do all the things I've listed above or travel to the places listed either, the very fact that people carry on with their daily lives and that places are still mobbed with tourists only means that the terrorist has failed to achieve their aims and have us all cowering in our own homes afraid to go out and do anything.

[doctor jambo]

The old testament is a collection books from various authors, based mainly on ancient Hebrew texts. And, oh yeah, nobody reads it. To suggest it's actively creating White Supremacists in the way the Quran is churning out Jihadist, you know is an outright lie.

 

All Muslims are taught the Quran is the direct, last and final, perfectly recorded, word of god. ahmadiyya muslims seem to be the exception, they believe in other, more recent prophets, and subsequently they are violently persecuted on the basis of Blasphemy, from Pakistan to Shawlands, Glasgow.

the bible does create white supremacists, homophobes, misogynists and the kind of folks who kill family planning Dr's in the US.

A lot of the stuff RedM was copying post Charlotteville about the victim was from the Christian Baptist play book- the purpose of women, children , superiority of white "god fearing" people.

and the inferiority of others

 

Don't get how you cannot see that?

And do you think its OK for my kids pals to be called terrorists and have folk saying "all muslims are terrorists" ?

that is your narrative

[elvoys]

the bible does create white supremacists, homophobes, misogynists and the kind of folks who kill family planning Dr's in the US.

A lot of the stuff RedM was copying post Charlotteville about the victim was from the Christian Baptist play book- the purpose of women, children , superiority of white "god fearing" people.

and the inferiority of others

 

Don't get how you cannot see that?

And do you think its OK for my kids pals to be called terrorists and have folk saying "all muslims are terrorists" ?

that is your narrative

 

Comparative theology and doctrine, PEW polls on numbers that subscribe to specific beliefs, religious leaders and history itself should should show you that Islam and Christianity today let alone the proximity between Islam/ Jihad and Bible/ White Supremacists is quite different if the news cycle itself doesn't.

 

Importantly with the evangelical argument you seem to be agreeing there is a clear correlation between belief and actions.

 

Does it though?

 

People still use the train, people still use the metro, people still fly in planes, people still walk down the street and people still travel to destinations such as Paris, Madrid, London, Brussels, Berlin & Barcelona to name but a few. 

 

If terrorism or the threat of violence worked then people wouldn't do all the things I've listed above or travel to the places listed either, the very fact that people carry on with their daily lives and that places are still mobbed with tourists only means that the terrorist has failed to achieve their aims and have us all cowering in our own homes afraid to go out and do anything.

 

you could argue that, especially in light of the force of globalisation and movement of people but you could equally look at the dramatic tourist drops in Paris and the ritual stripping off at the airport.

[ZeroHour]

the bible does create white supremacists, homophobes, misogynists and the kind of folks who kill family planning Dr's in the US.

A lot of the stuff RedM was copying post Charlotteville about the victim was from the Christian Baptist play book- the purpose of women, children , superiority of white "god fearing" people.

and the inferiority of others

 

Don't get how you cannot see that?

And do you think its OK for my kids pals to be called terrorists and have folk saying "all muslims are terrorists" ?

that is your narrative

As an athiest i'm not going to go to great lengths to defend Christanity and the small band of nutcases you may find in groups like the Westboro Baptist church. But this is pathetic argument really takes the home top award at the annaul "whatabootery" awards, meanwhile half the middleeast is being ripped apart by sectarian civil wars often with the belligerents consisting of Suadi-sponsored Sunnis & Iranian sponsored Shias.

 

Islamism is the great threat of our times, had we been gaving this conversation 90 years ago I would have said fascism. The difference I guess is one of these ideologies has the taboo cloak of religion to hide behind thus discouraging the weak-willed to even broach the subject... even as children are gang raped or tourists crushed to death by trucks on promenades. Couldn't give a shit about a muslim getting some verbal on a bus somewhere, it's not even worthy of the conversation.

[doctor jambo]

Couldn't give a shit about a muslim getting some verbal on a bus somewhere, it's not even worthy of the conversation.

 

 

Really?

 

 

 

More Scots in the last few years have been killed or injured by Christian sectarian violence than Islamic extremism

[Sten Guns]

Gotta love the Docs whataboutery when it comes to Islam.

 

He's consistent if anything. I'll give him that.

[elvoys]

Tarragona, Cambrils, Salou are all hotbeds of salafism apparently according to Ny Times Rukmina Calaimachi. Mohammed Atta prepared 9/11 from Cambrills.

 

Folks might start wanting to add them to the North Africa no tan-do list.

[ZeroHour]

 

 

 

Really?

 

 

 

More Scots in the last few years have been killed or injured by Christian sectarian violence than Islamic extremism

So i'm supposed to care more about Old Firm fans having a fisticuffs than the global islamic threat that is changing our very way of life, because we live in a largely rural country? Good one.

[ZeroHour]

Tarragona, Cambrils, Salou are all hotbeds of salafism apparently according to Ny Times Rukmina Calaimachi. Mohammed Atta prepared 9/11 from Cambrills.

 

Folks might start wanting to add them to the North Africa no tan-do list.

Wierd. I've been to Cabrils. It's a tiny seaside town with a promenade, seafoid restaurants, a small beach and some villas. It's a short bus ride to Salou where there's actually signs of lifeform.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Tarragona, Cambrils, Salou are all hotbeds of salafism apparently according to Ny Times Rukmina Calaimachi. Mohammed Atta prepared 9/11 from Cambrills.

 

Folks might start wanting to add them to the North Africa no tan-do list.

 

Not exactly true according to this.

http://news.sky.com/story/spain-terror-attacks-911-pilot-met-al-qaeda-plotter-in-cambrils-10993578

 

He was in Cambrils for one night meeting another would be hi-jacker, whom didn't get a US visa and didn't take part in 9/11 attacks.

[zoltan socrates]

The old testament is full of genocide, exterminations and wanton destruction of the populace.Not all Muslims believe that the Koran is an absolute, in the same way that only fundamentalist Christians believe the bible is literal- that god hates gays etcI have not read the Koran, but I have read the Bible and its full of utter tripe- child sacrifice to keep god happy and so on and so forth.My sons best mate is a Muslim, from Pakistan- and several kids at school have called him a terrorist in the last year and one came out with "all Muslims are terrorists"Its repugnant

The old testament isnt in question here in this debate, its a device used to extend whatabouttery and deflection, besides the old testament has been abrogated by the new ie nasty first then cleared up with the jiceties of the new testament, the testament christians are meant to follow, the direct opposite is true of the koran and its associated writings

 

Id like to know why, rightly, there has been calls to ban the fascist white supremacy organisations in the us but no calls to ban the islamofascists ideology at all

 

When white supremists attack its all condemnation, again rightly so, but when islamists attack its rhetoric of peace and unity, he inconsistency is dreadful, this was asked this morning on lbc by majid nawaz, theres a chap whoshould be pushed to the forefront

[zoltan socrates]

Gotta love the Docs whataboutery when it comes to Islam.

He's consistent if anything. I'll give him that.

ime most civil servants are the same, their institutions are blighted by leftist mindset, he has been programmed through years in learning institutions where this mindset thrives in their safe spaces

 

Its not a dig, i respect the chap and his posts but if you are in the environment you become the environment

[elvoys]

Not exactly true according to this.

http://news.sky.com/story/spain-terror-attacks-911-pilot-met-al-qaeda-plotter-in-cambrils-10993578

 

He was in Cambrils for one night meeting another would be hi-jacker, whom didn't get a US visa and didn't take part in 9/11 attacks.

 

Cheers for clarification.

 

The positive side of all this is that the inevitable Eiffel Tower strobe light will be pretty cool.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Wierd. I've been to Cabrils. It's a tiny seaside town with a promenade, seafoid restaurants, a small beach and some villas. It's a short bus ride to Salou where there's actually signs of lifeform.

 

Lifeforms? 

 

Not in the Red Lion on a Saturday night mate, as Doctor McCoy would say 'It's life Jim but not as we know it' 

[Gorgiewave]

Cheers for clarification.

 

It was a three-day "summit" according to this article:

https://elpais.com/diario/2002/06/30/domingo/1025409153_850215.html

[fabienleclerq]

The educated case would be all the dr's we need, the engineers, the entrepreneurs.

Replace the work " Islamic" with "Jewish" and see what that does to the debate

 

If anyone even dared to conduct a survey asking whether people wanted to halt jewish immigration there would be uproar.

 

I'm far from convinced that religion should be a factor on deciding immigration.

Did we have a catholic travel ban in the UK during the troubles?

 

[doctor jambo]

Gotta love the Docs whataboutery when it comes to Islam.

 

He's consistent if anything. I'll give him that.

Its because I find the demonization of a billion people,and some good friends of mine offensive.

 

Back in the 70's the hippy trail allowed americans, Canadians and others to freely roam down through north Africa and into Iran no problem at all- safely- all many years after the writing of the Koran.

Something has gone badly wrong with a small minority.

Why has this happened?

I have visited a number of Muslim countries without being killed- including Turkey. Morocco and Tunisia, Dubai.

The people were great.

If ALL Muslims as you are purporting follow the Koran I couldn't do this.

Its simply garbage

[Zico]

When white supremists attack its all condemnation, again rightly so, but when islamists attack its rhetoric of peace and unity, he inconsistency is dreadful, this was asked this morning on lbc by majid nawaz, theres a chap whoshould be pushed to the forefront

Nawaz and Quilliam should be at the centre of the debate in the UK.

[doctor jambo]

ime most civil servants are the same, their institutions are blighted by leftist mindset, he has been programmed through years in learning institutions where this mindset thrives in their safe spaces

 

Its not a dig, i respect the chap and his posts but if you are in the environment you become the environment

I've never been accused of being left wing on here before

[elvoys]

Its because I find the demonization of a billion people,and some good friends of mine offensive.

 

Back in the 70's the hippy trail allowed americans, Canadians and others to freely roam down through north Africa and into Iran no problem at all- safely- all many years after the writing of the Koran.

Something has gone badly wrong with a small minority.

Why has this happened?

I have visited a number of Muslim countries without being killed- including Turkey. Morocco and Tunisia, Dubai.

The people were great.

If ALL Muslims as you are purporting follow the Koran I couldn't do this.

Its simply garbage

 

The best argument I've heard is the  youth pile up in demographics. Revolution is always a young and educated thing e.g. the Uliyanovs, the French Rev. Their autocratic, corrupt and secular leaders couldn't provide mass middle classness for the increasingly educated so they turned to Islam for the answer. 

 

And the Koran (direct present tense, speech from god), Hadith (perfect role model manual) and Sira (the life of the perfect muslim) is just about the worst blueprint imaginable.

[Sten Guns]

Its because I find the demonization of a billion people,and some good friends of mine offensive.

 

Back in the 70's the hippy trail allowed americans, Canadians and others to freely roam down through north Africa and into Iran no problem at all- safely- all many years after the writing of the Koran.

Something has gone badly wrong with a small minority.

Why has this happened?

I have visited a number of Muslim countries without being killed- including Turkey. Morocco and Tunisia, Dubai.

The people were great.

If ALL Muslims as you are purporting follow the Koran I couldn't do this.

Its simply garbage

Can you please please stop peddling this shite. It's an utterly ridiculous and hollow comment.

 

Nobody is demonising a billion people. Nobody is blaming all Muslims.

 

Stop it.

[ZeroHour]

 

 

What are you laughing at?  All religions are equal, obviously.

[Escobar PHM]

Amongst other more normal and serious thoughts I had last night after hearing about the attack was the comforting assurance that elvoys would be back on JKB Shed for a few days to explain it all to us and then disappear again till the next time.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

The difficulty is that people are creating a fire-storm and blaming Muslims as a group - billion+ of them- for the actions of a few bams.

We are now seeing immigrant blaming by our own politicians coming to its natural conclusion

Pakistani men are rapists

Muslims are terrorists

Stop immigration from the EU its their fault your lives are rubbish

Stop Muslims visiting

5 Live had someone calling for racial profiling of people hiring vans

 

All of this BS could be straight out the mouth of Trump.

 

You can bet most of those in Charlottesville have some fundamentalist Christian beliefs- so we should ban all White Christians be they radical or not from all over the world on the same basis because a white nutter rammed a protester in a vehicle?

Naw, I don't think so.

 

Fair comment and all of these things are deplorable.

 

But rather than going down the Owen Jones tried-and-tested route of 'here's a long list of what we shouldn't do about it', can you suggest what we should do?

[doctor jambo]

Can you please please stop peddling this shite. It's an utterly ridiculous and hollow comment.

 

Nobody is demonising a billion people. Nobody is blaming all Muslims.

 

Stop it.

If you are blaming Islam then yes you are blaming all muslims.

And its not a dig at you Sten.

Zerohour thinks its OK to abuse Muslim kids because some nutter went off the deep end.

I don't believe that is OK.

That is the mindset of the Islamists who carry out these atrocities- blaming innocents for the actions of others based on nothing but one small part of their upbringing

[Sten Guns]

If you are blaming Islam then yes you are blaming all muslims.

 

 

Officially the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on here.

 

Wowzers.

[zoltan socrates]

I've never been accused of being left wing on here before

apologies mate, i dont necessarily think you are in a greater sense, idk you so how could i judge, but there is a definite leftist mindset within the institutions of med, education, to some degree law and there is a definite objection to conservative thinking irrespective of common sense or 'doing the right thing', and that must influence you consciously or otherwise

What organisations do you want banned that are not already?

any hibs sc

[elvoys]

If you are blaming Islam then yes you are blaming all muslims.

And its not a dig at you Sten.

Zerohour thinks its OK to abuse Muslim kids because some nutter went off the deep end.

I don't believe that is OK.

That is the mindset of the Islamists who carry out these atrocities- blaming innocents for the actions of others based on nothing but one small part of their upbringing

 

Can i blame Catholicism for awful, irresponsible contraception ideas in Africa yet not hold my dear old chapel going gran responsible yet at the same time criticise her if she feels she has to hold on to these views?

[doctor jambo]

Fair comment and all of these things are deplorable.

 

But rather than going down the Owen Jones tried-and-tested route of 'here's a long list of what we shouldn't do about it', can you suggest what we should do?

Make friends with all the Muslim countries, remove sanctions, help the Palestinians properly, be friends with Iran.

I'd rather we all got on than we tried to force things on them.

Allow a natural religious evolutionary process to take place

[JKBMod 5]

Keep it civil and avoid trolling please.

We don't want to have to moderate this discussion.

[ZeroHour]

If you are blaming Islam then yes you are blaming all muslims.

And its not a dig at you Sten.

Zerohour thinks its OK to abuse Muslim kids because some nutter went off the deep end.

I don't believe that is OK.

That is the mindset of the Islamists who carry out these atrocities- blaming innocents for the actions of others based on nothing but one small part of their upbringing

 

 

So Islam should be beyond criticism as an ideology because you don't want to be perceived as "blaming all Muslims"?  Utterly absurd.  There are plenty of Muslims (sufi's for example) who interpret various aspects of the Quran as being 'spitirual' - there Muslims (Wahhabists for example) that believe in an entirely literal interpretation (kill unbelievers where you may find them).  It;s also the case that many "muslims" born and bred here, are probably closet Athiests that have been very much westernised by our own culture, who probably drink discreetly with their mates, etc, but still keep up the appearance, because, well, apostacy doesn't tend to end well for those raised by Muslim parents.  So, indeed, not ALL Muslims can be critized personally, by absolving Islam itself, as a belief culture, purely based on the fact it is a religion, is an astonishing point-of-view.  I wonder if you would say the same about Satanists.

 

 

As for this:

 

 

 "Zerohour thinks its OK to abuse Muslim kids because some nutter went off the deep end."

 

 

 

^ That is incredible slander, i'm not sure how strict the moderation is on this forum, but writing such an outright lie about me should be deserving of a warning or ban.

[doctor jambo]

Can i blame Catholicism for awful, irresponsible contraception ideas in Africa yet not hold my dear old chapel going gran responsible yet at the same time criticise her if she feels she has to hold on to these views?

You can if you want, or you can respect her views and leave her alone, in the knowledge that the harder "Christian" stance of our elders on such things as sex before marriage, children out of wedlock, homosexuality are gradually wearing away through the generations - without the need to vilify anyone. Its your good self who seems to want to treat a billion people as a single entity, not me

[Jambo-Jimbo]

It was a three-day "summit" according to this article:

https://elpais.com/diario/2002/06/30/domingo/1025409153_850215.html

 

I'll take your word for it, as the article is in Spanish.

[zoltan socrates]

Make friends with all the Muslim countries, remove sanctions, help the Palestinians properly, be friends with Iran.I'd rather we all got on than we tried to force things on them.Allow a natural religious evolutionary process to take place

Koran 5:51 O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people

 

There are nine other similar passages in the koran, if they dont trust us then dialogue cannot happen

 

He right thing of course is that we can all get along and live harmoniously, but that flies in the face of the competative nature of the human being, someone always wants to be top dog and no amount of dialogue can alter what is woven into the fibres of each and every one of us. We were friends with iran until the ayatollah decided it must become an islamic republic

[ZeroHour]

Koran 5:51 O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people

 

There are nine other similar passages in the koran, if they dont trust us then dialogue cannot happen

 

He right thing of course is that we can all get along and live harmoniously, but that flies in the face of the competative nature of the human being, someone always wants to be top dog and no amount of dialogue can alter what is woven into the fibres of each and every one of us. We were friends with iran until the ayatollah decided it must become an islamic republic

 

 

 

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791: ?The Hour will not begin until you fight the Jews, until a Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say: ?O Muslim, O slave of Allah, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him".

 

"Making friends" with Palestine will certainly help....

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Make friends with all the Muslim countries, remove sanctions, help the Palestinians properly, be friends with Iran.

I'd rather we all got on than we tried to force things on them.

Allow a natural religious evolutionary process to take place

 

I'd like to see this too.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

We were friends with iran until the ayatollah decided it must become an islamic republic

That's where your Iran history starts? You missed a UK and US backed coup to halt nationalisation of the oil industry. It's a key event in the history of all of this.

[doctor jambo]

So Islam should be beyond criticism as an ideology because you don't want to be perceived as "blaming all Muslims"?  Utterly absurd.  There are plenty of Muslims (sufi's for example) who interpret various aspects of the Quran as being 'spitirual' - there Muslims (Wahhabists for example) that believe in an entirely literal interpretation (kill unbelievers where you may find them).  It;s also the case that many "muslims" born and bred here, are probably closet Athiests that have been very much westernised by our own culture, who probably drink discreetly with their mates, etc, but still keep up the appearance, because, well, apostacy doesn't tend to end well for those raised by Muslim parents.  So, indeed, not ALL Muslims can be critized personally, by absolving Islam itself, as a belief culture, purely based on the fact it is a religion, is an astonishing point-of-view.  I wonder if you would say the same about Satanists.

 

 

As for this:

 

 

 "Zerohour thinks its OK to abuse Muslim kids because some nutter went off the deep end."

 

 

 

^ That is incredible slander, i'm not sure how strict the moderation is on this forum, but writing such an outright lie about me should be deserving of a warning or ban.

 

see post 107,

he said it, its not a lie.

Sometimes the mask slips

[ZeroHour]

 

 

 

^ That is incredible slander, i'm not sure how strict the moderation is on this forum, but writing such an outright lie about me should be deserving of a warning or ban.

 

see post 107,

he said it, its not a lie.

Sometimes the mask slips

 

 

It is an outright lie, I said no such thing.

[hueyview]

Actions by violent individuals who cloak their attacks in Islam, should be seen as what it is.......a crime.

 

Maybe na?ve, but I hope when criminals commit crimes that involve indiscriminate killings, including children, then it opens the eyes to the wider, in this case Muslim population just how evil these acts are...

[doctor jambo]

. Couldn't give a shit about a muslim getting some verbal on a bus somewhere, it's not even worthy of the conversation.

 

The above was you.

Its pretty clear - a response to me posting about my kids pal being called a terrorist

Muslims being racially abused - you couldn't give a shit- not even worth the conversation

Its pretty clear

[Rocco_Jambo]

Very strange (creepy even) that, out of nowhere, you use this thread to have a go at someone like Owen Jones, who more often than not, comes across as a very decent human being.

How's it out of no where if you have actually read the post I was responding to?

[doctor jambo]

When fold don't give a shit about 11 year old kids being racially abused, that is not quite the same as not paying attention to a football game.

. But that is still not the same as advocating it is it, which was your inference

 

It wasn't my inference. I didn't infer he was advocating it.

I said he was OK with it, which he would appear to be.

He doesn't care about kids being racially abused.

Nice.

anyway , I've no fight with you over it.

If he wants to defend his honour over it he can.

and if the mods want to sanction me, then I can think of fewer things I'd rather be banned for than pulling him up for that

[ZeroHour]

 

. Couldn't give a shit about a muslim getting some verbal on a bus somewhere, it's not even worthy of the conversation.

 

The above was you.

Its pretty clear - a response to me posting about my kids pal being called a terrorist

Muslims being racially abused - you couldn't give a shit- not even worth the conversation

Its pretty clear

 

You claimed "i think its ok for muslim children to be abused" - i said no such thing. Not even close. I said i couldn't giveva shit about you're hypothetical scenario and stated it wasn't worthy of the conversation. You seem to have a grasp on the English language so i can't give you the benefit of the doubt that you misread my comment, i can only infer it was outright slander. You owe me an apology.

[Don Dan]

And again?

 

At least one person is dead and others critically injured after a knife attack in the Finnish city of Turku.

[elvoys]

Local imam at Barca mosque believed to have led and radicalised this teen cell and is now doing a B1.

 

But still, I'm sure its not about religion.

 

It would be good if MSM could for once actually point out what these chaps are being 'radical' about.

[Gorgiewave]

Local imam at Barca mosque believed to have led and radicalised this teen cell and is now doing a B1.

 

But still, I'm sure its not about religion.

 

It would be good if MSM could for once actually point out what these chaps are being 'radical' about.

 

What's a B1?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Local imam at Barca mosque believed to have led and radicalised this teen cell and is now doing a B1.

 

But still, I'm sure its not about religion.

 

It would be good if MSM could for once actually point out what these chaps are being 'radical' about.

 

Reports that he was last seen about a month ago at around the same time that the family of one of the attackers last heard from their son.

 

Police suspect that there could be two bodies in the house that exploded (it's quite hard to tell seemingly) one of them could be the Imam, but only DNA will determine if that is so. 

[elvoys]

 

What's a B1?[/quo

 

Straight bolt.